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#406131 - 07/14/14 03:58 AM What Do You Think?
Captain4105 Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/11/09
Posts: 125
Loc: Southern California
I listen to classical music on 2.1 system.

My sub is circa 1979 and needs replacing. So I am thinking of trading my M80v3's (I could use more bass and they are in excellent condition) for 2 M22v4's and the EP500v4.

I have no LFE outlet on my present stereo amp (circa 1988). Can I still connect the sub to my amp? Would my system's performance be improved? Your advice is appreciated.

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#406135 - 07/14/14 11:30 AM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: Captain4105]
BobKay Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 3171
Loc: Massachusetts Badlands
Get a new 2-channel amp, ditch everything (no sub) and get M100's. I just upgraded M60's to the 100's. I got a 500 when I got the 60's 4+ years ago. The M100's don't need the sub for music, not for me, anyway. I know the M80's fairly well, as a member here is also a neighbor of mine. My 100's are the first speakers I have ever owned that finally make classical music sound like the entire orchestra actually showed up and EVERYONE played. The dynamic range is amazing and, at last, someone can flesh out all that stuff from the murky depths and bring it a clarity that I have never heard (read: could afford).

They are a stupid silly bargain from some really smart peeps.

You are THE listener the 100's and 1100's were made for----2 channel old-school people. You'd probably love the 1100's, but the whole set-up is a lot more money for them and their electronics. Another bargain, but in a different league.

Good luck with your choice(s)
_________________________
"Ya rolls the dice and ya takes yer chanskes."
Popeye

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#406139 - 07/14/14 12:38 PM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: Captain4105]
MarkSJohnson Online   happy
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10964
Loc: Central NH
Thanks for making me want another something, Bob. Jerk.
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#406142 - 07/14/14 03:49 PM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: Captain4105]
oakvillematt Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/06/14
Posts: 197
Loc: Oakville, Canada
I will agree with bob. I did start off with a set of M80v4, and they were fantastic. I did get suckered into the belief that there was not enough bass out of the M80.. (but I was probably fooling myself).

I traded them back to Axiom (in the 30 days) and went with the LFR1100, and the full orchestra is there.

But I think that you will be fooling yourself in thinking that you need a whole load of bass. I guess it depends on what sort of music you are listening to. If you do get a sub then yes by all means you can crank up that sub amp to give you more sonic thump, but it will be at the cost of loosing detail in the mids as it will get lost in the thump.

Not much sort of a pipe organ really gives that sonic residence that needs a sub. Your M80 should be able to get down into that 29~35hz range that most music doesn't get blow on a good day.

I will say however that the LFR1100 do sound very sweet and fill the room to the point you are no longer listening to music, rather experiencing it.
_________________________
Matt

People are like a box of chocolates. It's hard to tell initially which ones are nuts.

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#406143 - 07/14/14 04:47 PM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: Captain4105]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1215
Loc: Whitehorse YT
The biggest detriment to bass is the room itself. Cancelation is the issue and there are a few ways to help correct it. You can use treatments like bass traps or you can correct it electronically with something like an Antimode which is self contained and does wonders or move up to a Minidsp and use room correction software. I have lived in enough houses (same speakers for 30yrs) over the years that it eventually became apparent that not all rooms favor your speakers. Subs are handy in the respect that you can move them around and if you use 2 you can fill the nulls if you have room to move them.

Some good reference found HERE

I did not realize how drastic this was until I added a antimode to my 2 channel system.

Richard
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#406144 - 07/14/14 04:49 PM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: oakvillematt]
BobKay Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 3171
Loc: Massachusetts Badlands
Originally Posted By: oakvillematt
I will agree with bob. I did start off with a set of M80v4, and they were fantastic. I did get suckered into the belief that there was not enough bass out of the M80.. (but I was probably fooling myself).

I traded them back to Axiom (in the 30 days) and went with the LFR1100, and the full orchestra is there.

But I think that you will be fooling yourself in thinking that you need a whole load of bass. I guess it depends on what sort of music you are listening to. If you do get a sub then yes by all means you can crank up that sub amp to give you more sonic thump, but it will be at the cost of loosing detail in the mids as it will get lost in the thump.

Not much sort of a pipe organ really gives that sonic residence that needs a sub. Your M80 should be able to get down into that 29~35hz range that most music doesn't get blow on a good day.

I will say however that the LFR1100 do sound very sweet and fill the room to the point you are no longer listening to music, rather experiencing it.


And Matt has generously offered a zero-interest, 5-year loan program (on him) for those wishing to upgrade to 100's or 1100's! What a guy!
_________________________
"Ya rolls the dice and ya takes yer chanskes."
Popeye

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#406156 - 07/15/14 12:55 AM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: Captain4105]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10411
Lee, as you know, my own listening is almost entirely classical and I've suggested that 2-channel source material is heard significantly more realistically with surround speakers in use driven by an AV receiver using a mode such as DPLII.

Having said that, if you're going to continue using only front speakers, then my view is that using M22s plus an EP500(or similar), which is what I use, will give you a significant advantage in bass extension(especially relevant in pipe organ material)over even speakers such as the M80s and M100s which have relatively good bass response when used alone. So, I'd be in agreement with the trade that you propose.

As to connections, if you continue to use the stereo amp which has no provision for bass management, the sub would be connected to the output terminals in parallel with the M22s. The M22s would be driven full-range and the low-pass filter in the sub would be used to roll it off above the point(say about 60Hz)where the M22s roll off "naturally".
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#406158 - 07/15/14 09:14 AM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: Captain4105]
Lampshade Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1165
Loc: Holbrook, MA
If you stay 2.1, then outlaw has a cool stereo receiver with bass management. Looks weird.
_________________________
M3 and Manley Stingray
M80 and Pioneer SC 55

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#406171 - 07/15/14 12:13 PM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: Captain4105]
exlabdriver Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 1062
Captain:

In my music only tube driven system, I use M2s each with its own little monster EP400 sub. M22s would be great also.

I employ the Speaker Level inputs into each EP400 from the amp's Speaker Out terminals - this gives true 2 Channel Stereo (2.2?).

The M2s roll off naturally below 70 Hz where the EP400s take over. This is just an outstanding, fairly compact system that reaches deep & loud in my fairly large room...

TAM

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#406194 - 07/16/14 01:32 AM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: Captain4105]
Captain4105 Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/11/09
Posts: 125
Loc: Southern California
Thank you all for your responses.

I think the best choice for me is to trade in the M80v3's for an EP500v4, and purchase two M22v4's through the factory outlet. John, thank you for your comments. I do want a surround system (4.1). I think I would like the ambient qualities it provides and I do have several SACD's. For the rest of my collection I can use the DPLII mode when I purchase a new receiver with that or a similar mode. Occasionally I watch a movie but do not enjoy all the effects (I wear ear plugs when going to the movie theater to preserve my hearing!). Orchestral music is another genre where occasional loud perorations and grand finales do not bother me but rather have a stirring effect and are not artificially produced or enhanced as they are in movies.

Tam, I thought about the EP400 and it may very well work for me, but I think the extra power and abilities of just one 500 would be a better bet since occasionally deep low's can be better heard when listening to organ music. I am not interested in pressurizing my room nor do I have too much concern for smoothing out the bass throughout the listening area.

Bob & Matt, one of the reasons I want to change my setup configuration is because of the large monoliths I have in the M80's that dominate the front of my area. Purchasing M100's would be overkill for me in terms of their presence in my listening area and I believe I would have more control and flexibility of the bass at lower listening levels with a satellite configuration.

So with this change I am considering, I will not be as picky with the purchase of a new receiver since I will not have the 4 ohm issue.

I would also like some advice regarding the model of the surround speakers that would be best. For now I have some floor standing celestion speakers that may suffice temporarily. Thanks again everyone!


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#406197 - 07/16/14 03:30 AM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: Captain4105]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10411
Lee, since the surround material in 2-channel(or multi-channel)classical sources is ambient in nature and wide dispersion rather than tight imaging is therefore desirable, the QS4s or QS8s are ideal for the purpose.

The Celestions can certainly be used, but a suggestion as to placement would be to have them directly to the side of the listening position but aimed toward the back wall rather than inward, so as to increase the proportion of diffused sound.

Although you may not be ready at this time for the receiver purchase, I'd suggest that since a few of the excellent Onkyo 818 factory refurbs are still available from Accessories4less for about $600, that this be considered. For a lower budget the Denon E400 is available from them for about $250.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#406262 - 07/20/14 01:07 AM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: JohnK]
Captain4105 Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/11/09
Posts: 125
Loc: Southern California
John, thanks for the celestion placement tip.

After submitting the M80v3's to the trade up program for an estimate, I was disappointed with the amount Axiom would allow. I do not blame them, but I cannot justify to myself the extra cost to trade up to the EP500 & M22's. It may be best just to purchase the EP500 and keep the M80's. Or as an alternative try to sell the M80's privately through eBay for more money if I can. With what they are allowing me it would cost me $1180 for the EP500 & M22's without stands and no new receiver.

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#406263 - 07/20/14 09:16 AM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: Captain4105]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6622
Loc: It's all about the location.
I'd just add a sub to your current system. I'm at a loss as to why people think a bookshelf speaker with stands is either saving a whole lot of space or money vs tower speakers...similar footprint, price gap narrows a fair bit if you're buying stands for the bookshelfs.
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#406265 - 07/20/14 12:12 PM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: Captain4105]
exlabdriver Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 1062
Interesting - I thought that Axiom was more than generous with me when I traded some stuff in...

TAM

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#406266 - 07/20/14 12:42 PM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: Captain4105]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1215
Loc: Whitehorse YT
@ Captain

Trading in is never as lucrative as making a private sale. Trading in is good for the impulse buy much like trading in a car. I once worked for a used car lot as a mechanic and they often brought me what was called a dollar car from a trade in. Try selling privately first, the shipping from SoCal would be huge and if you can sell them local you can pocket that money.
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#406267 - 07/20/14 03:55 PM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: Captain4105]
exlabdriver Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 1062
True; however, according to what I've read from other disgruntled people trying to sell their speakers (especially Axioms) over the past couple of years, you probably will be even more disappointed to see what you can get for them on ebay.

As far as bookshelfs on stands vs towers - I prefer the aesthetics of bookshelfs/stands. Furthermore, I don't like having towers with a bunch of costly woofers that are barely used in a HT AVR setup because most of the lows (normally < 80 Hz ) are directed away from them & sent to the sub(s).

Each to his own...

TAM

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#406268 - 07/20/14 05:06 PM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: Captain4105]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1215
Loc: Whitehorse YT
In the original post the OP wanted to shrink the footprint of the speakers. The 80's are big for sure.
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#406276 - 07/21/14 12:52 AM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: Captain4105]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1124
Tam,

Have you listened to the M80HP or M100 without a sub?
_________________________
The Hobbit in HFR 3D was worth the wait.

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#406277 - 07/21/14 12:58 AM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: Captain4105]
exlabdriver Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 1062
Actually I listened to a pair of prototype M100V3s Axioms in their factory listening room using one of my favourite CDs.

I liked them but I preferred my M2s plus 2 x EP400s in my home. Perhaps I was just used to mine...

TAM


Edited by exlabdriver (07/21/14 01:09 AM)

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#406294 - 07/21/14 11:19 PM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: Captain4105]
Captain4105 Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/11/09
Posts: 125
Loc: Southern California
Socketman: I sold used and new cars when in graduate school and I'd say your analogy is accurate. Also I do want to reduce the footprint but not for the cost I've calculated.

As an alternative I researched HSU subs and am now looking at SVS. The VTF-3 MK4 caught my eye. For $699 + shipping etc. this piece of equipment goes down to 16HZ and has impressive reviews. Pairing this sub with a pair of M22's would cost much less. I am unsure if I could trade up to M22's and stands for the one pair of M80's though. I still think my M80's are wonderful so I am still unsure what to do other than continue to research at this point.

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#406295 - 07/22/14 12:31 AM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: Captain4105]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1215
Loc: Whitehorse YT
You could build your own m22's if your handy. I built myself a set of bookshelves using Axiom drivers and they sound great. I call them M16's.
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#406573 - 08/14/14 02:28 AM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: Socketman]
Shane White Offline
veteran

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 143
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
You can buy Axiom drivers? What did you use for a crossover?

Shane
_________________________
Raspberry Pi running Squeezelite->IQAudio Pi-DAC->NAD C320BEE amp->Usher S-520 bookshelf speakers

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#406583 - 08/14/14 10:30 AM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: Captain4105]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1215
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Yes you can buy drivers from axiom. I bought some M80 V2's but they came with V3 drivers so Axiom sent me V2 drivers and I used the extra's to build my speakers. As for the crossover I used some software on the computer to design my own.
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#406584 - 08/14/14 02:56 PM Re: What Do You Think? [Re: Captain4105]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6884
Loc: PEI, Canada
Oddly enough, I ran across a bunch of Axiom tweeters for sale on Kijiji today.
_________________________
With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

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