Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners A MUST READ Personal STORY: Newbies Must Know

Let me preface this by saying that I do not believe that all solid state amps sound the same, or that all tube amps sound the same. However, you are so anti-scientific process that it's a bit ridiculous.

In reply to:

---

People who have listened to different amps in otherwise identical systems report they've heard differences to which they ascribe a quality (like it more, like it less, different but dunno). Folks who claim there is no difference between amps rely on theory, rather than their ears.

---

This is absolutely false. They rely on their ears, but also scientific process to verify. If one can hear a difference after swapping out a component themselves, then that leaves open the possibility that the difference they are hearing is the placebo effect, as they know which component they are listening to. If one can hear a difference reliably and repeatedly after having the components repeatedly swapped without their knowledge as to which component is being played when, then that provides much more solid proof that there is, in fact, a real difference between the two components that isn't just an aberration or wishful thinking, ie, they sound different. If on the other hand, one cannot reliably hear a difference after repeated swaps of the components (again without your knowledge as to which component is being played when), then the only logical conclusion is that the two components sound similar enough that they more or less can't be differentiated by ear, ie, they sound the same. Yes, the ear is the deciding factor in the test.

You would think the audio community would be more welcoming of this, since it would provide much more accurate results in comparing audio components. But then again, companies would have a much harder time justifying their outrageous prices if their $5000 amp turned out to sound the same as (or who knows, even worse than) a $500 one.

Well, Adam, if you can find a $300 amp which sounds better than a $5000 amp, I think you've proved my point. I'm not saying that the audible difference between amps is price dependent, as a matter of fact, I thought I made that clear.

However, neither have I relied on the mysterious and mythical 'placebo' effect to trump all audible differences in tests which are not strictly double blind in nature.

As to your belief that I am "anti-scientific," well, I respectfully suggest you haven't understood what I'm saying, or you wouldn't characterize it as "anti-scientific." To the contrary, I think it's bad science which denegrates evidence which is inconsistent with theory.

BAHAHAHAHA!

In reply to:

---

However, neither have I relied on the mysterious and mythical 'placebo' effect to trump all audible differences in tests which are not strictly double blind in nature

---

The problem with the placebo effect is you can't really "rely" on it or "use" it, as it exists without the listener's express knowledge. He hears a difference, and to him that difference may seem very real, but if upon further testing he can't reliably hear that difference, then it becomes apparent that the perceived difference was more than likely a placebo effect. And the effect is not really mysterious (well maybe a little that the mind is so open to the power of suggestion (or fear of wasted money ), nor is it mythical - it's been proven quite often, and not just in the audio field.

Let me pose a question, as I'm curious what you think about it. Have you ever had one of those times where you listen to your system and it just seems that everything sounds better? The imaging seems more realistic, the tonality seems more accurate, you get more involved in the actual music itself. It sounds better, and yet nothing in your system has changed. How exactly do you explain that?

Let me also say that I hope you don't take my argument as personal in nature, as I don't intend it that way. (In fact, I wouldn't mind hearing your system, as I've been intrigued by tubes for a while now, but never really had the chance to hear a system that I might actually be able to afford. )

Ok so I feel the need to chime in here with a question and a point.
The Question:
2x6, have you studied statistics in any rigorous fashion? (meaning, more than a highschool stat class.) I don't mean this question as any form of intelligence jab, I just want to know if you're familiar and comfortable with arguments regarding statistical significance and controlled experimentation.
The Point:
The placebo effect is not "mythical". It is a real effect that is observed across the board in science whenever the human body is relied upon as a measuring device. Listen to a commercial for something like "Allegra" and they say things like "side effects were mild, and similar to sugar pill". They're saying that the group of people they gave the placebo drug to came to them complaining about side effects when all they were taking was sugar! Similarly you might find a lot of experiments done in perceptory psychology to be pretty disconcerting with regard to the accuracy of human perception, if you feel like digging any up that is.

Um... the power cord finally wore in?

Good morning friends

No, haven't studied statistics since college many years ago.

Adam wrote:

In reply to:

---

Let me pose a question, as I'm curious what you think about it. Have you ever had one of those times where you listen to your system and it just seems that everything sounds better? The imaging seems more realistic, the tonality seems more accurate, you get more involved in the actual music itself. It sounds better, and yet nothing in your system has changed. How exactly do you explain that?"

---

Yes, there are occasions when my office system sounds better than others. I work late too often. Mostly I listen either to the news or to Soundscapes, a digital cable music channel. I've noticed that sometimes late at night, the system will sound better. I attribute this observable improvement to 2 factors:
(1) lower ambient background noise from outside, and
(2) either 'cleaner' electricity or more of it.
I haven't measured line voltage, nor have I ever put a scope on the AC, nor have I checked the ambient noise level with an SPL meter. Just guessing, however, even though this system always sounds great, sometimes, always late at night, it just sounds better.

I would add a possibility to that list, drawn from person experience:

I, personally, seem to be in a more musical mood late at night- music (from any source) just sounds better to me. I'd attribute this mood of mine to a combination of lower ambient noise and some weird psysiological state my body gets into from staying up for a while.

This is hardly scientific, but just a guess.

Yes, raindancee, I thought about adding the possibility of late night flashbacks to my more lyrical younger years.

I have to keep asking myself one question,

"Why oh why didn't I take the BLUE pill?"

Everything you guys are talking about is just what the machines are programing into the Matrix!