Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions Hsu VTF-2

I have a Hsu VTF2 hooked up to a HK 7200. I was told my bigjohn someone here might be able to help me. Is it surprising to everyone to hear that my sub clips? Espcially when listening to movies like Matrix Reloaded (when Neo takes off into the sky after big fight scene) and also in movies like "Underworld". Of course I can turn down the volume on the sub but then its no fun. I like to feel bass.
Anyway, is clipping normal for subs or should I look into getting mine fixed. Again, it migth be because of its location but I was told its location is okay.

If the sub is being overdriven (i.e. it's too loud), then it's normal for it to clip.

Have you calibrated your system with an SPL meter (available at Radio Shack)? I highly recommend doing it, as it will ensure that all your levels are at the correct levels relative to each other. It's very tempting to crank the level on the subwoofer, but it often leads to distorted/bloated bass.

If your sub doesn't crank out enough bass for you, then you may need to trade it in for something more powerful.

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If your sub doesn't crank out enough bass for you, then you may need to trade it in for something more powerful.

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Or sit directly on top of it.

Bren R.

I've had my VTF-2 for over a year and have never had it do anything but sound good.At what db's are you running it at?If you're clipping the amp and over driving it you should turn it down.How large is the room you have it in?The VTF-2 is said to be able to hit over 100db @25hz thats pretty loud.

I called Hsu and was told to set my VTF2 to 32 and take the plug out. It happens during movies with low bass at about -15 on my HK (whatever that means). My room is about 20 by 15 with vaulted ceilings and lots of open areas behind the listening area. I have the sub positioned in the front right corner. I moved it around a litte tonight and listened to the same movie without the clipping. I also turned down the volume after using an spl meter. Hopefully this does the trick. Thanks for the input.

jc - this hasn't been mentioned. Have you tried placing the sub in a corner? Once you place it in a corner, sometimes moving it just a few inches makes an impressive difference.

Also, a proven (but odd) way to determine the right placement is to put the sub in the sweet spot/listening position and crawl around the floor until you find the best sounding bass. That's where you place the sub.

Ray

I realize that I'm coming into this a bit late, but I was wondering if you could describe what the sub is doing when you say it "clips"?

if your wallet allows,add a 2nd sub,youll be amazed....ron

That's the third time I've read about getting down on all fours to find the sweet spot for the sub. I'm going to do it, but in the back of my mind I know you guys are really just having fun at my expense. So I'll be mumbling "Oh how I loathe them" while down there. I guess the next post will be "to finalize configuration, stand in the optimum listening area, drop trou, flap your arms, cluck like a chicken.......".

Technically speaking, quacking like a duck produces a flatter frequency response and fuller bass than clucking like a chicken.

Oh yeah, it also broadens the soundstage and sweetens the highs to stand on one foot, periodically hopping up and down.

Once you get the sub in it's sweet spot, and have it calibrated with a meter, you should be fine. If it doesn't have the punch you want at that point you'll simply need a bigger sub. That's a pretty large volume of space you're trying to fill.

Ken, I hate to pick nits here, but...

In MY room, squealing like a pig has repeatedly proven to be superior to any fowl, both in terms of dispersion and bass extension.

I'd say that barnyard animal vocalization calibration techniques are highly dependent upon boundary interactions. I have a friend who *swears* that bleating like a goat is the ONLY way to go.

Now, I don't want to start a flame war about whether it's better to calibrate with mammal or bird sounds, because we all know we've gone down that road too many times.

OY! I've gone down the rabbit hole. Why don't we have any NORMAL people on this forum? (Because then I'd stick out. That's why!)

Thanks yall

well all right.. i like the way he talks!!! (fellow texan)

and no, i didnt say he had a pretty mouth...

bigjohn

bigjohn- behave yourself. We're talking about ducks & chickens here, NOT gobblers.

jc, if you have any semblance of credible acceptance left, the floor thing really does work.

Is that the newfangled "Tex Messaging" I've heard about?

YES.. *911* means bring 2lbs of brisket, and a six pack of cold lonestar. *911* x2, means make it a 12 pack cause i got some hotties coming along.

bigjohn

I understand when you order "surf & turf" in Texas you get chicken fried steak and carp.

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That's the third time I've read about getting down on all fours to find the sweet spot for the sub. I'm going to do it, but in the back of my mind I know you guys are really just having fun at my expense.

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No... We'll save that for later when we invite you to the snipe hunt.

Michael,
Thanks for the invite but to tell you the truth I've been snipe hunting twice with no luck whatsoever. Quite frankly, I think you snipe hunters are a little clueless.

What were you using for bait? Northern snipes like their bait covered in BBQ sauce, honey, or ketchup. The southern, or Tex Mex snipe, prefers guacamole.

Also what libation did the hunting party have prior to, and during the hunt? Snipes HATE to see flashlight beams shining through brown glass. If you were drinking beer out of brown bottles, you had no chance at all. Next time, have the hunting party put the brewskis in those colored plastic cups. The light won't shine through them and scare the snipes off.

Oh... if you were smoking... They only like cherry flavored pipe smoke. Every other kind will run them off.

Better luck next time.

We were after Eastern snipe. The Eastern snipe prefer two-thick inch ribeye steaks, so I was told to bring a few pounds. They must have been aware of the brown bottle thing because they had me bring Heineken. There was much debate about the smoke but the consensus was mesquite. But even the fire they set to flush the prey my way backfired. When I returned to the camp site the smoke apparently had attracted the snipe, who devoured all the steak and drank all the Heineken. All the others had left. I guess they had bagged the limit.
I'll try some of your suggestions. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

While you guys may enjoy the hunt, I simply like the taste of snipe. We have a local bar who does a Friday night snipe fry in beer batter. Talk about heaven!! I believe he gets his stock from a snipe farm where they feed them sorghum. Nothing better than a mess of fresh filet-o-snipe.

I was fortunate to become friendly with the owner and he saves the snipe skin for me. I have it tanned and we have several pieces of furniture covered in snipe. I prefer naugahyde, but it is difficult to find since the nauga has become extinct.

west texas snipe must have a sweet tooth, cause they prefer double stuff oreos. those suckers will almost tear your arm off trying to get to those cream filled chocolate wafers. and the sugar makes the meat taste good. ya gotta slow BBQ em though. low heat, 200F-225F degrees, for 4-6 hours.. the meat pulls right off the bone.

and ray, use the skin to line the inside of your jacket pockets. helps keep your hands warm on those cold winter morning hunting trips.

bigjohn

That's very interesting. Most snipe here in California will go for avacado. Though there are some types in southern California that like silicone (yeah it's weird but it works).
Up here in the north you can attract the local variety pretty easily with any sort of 'organic' fruit or vegetables. If you plan to head further north than SF (say humboldt county) you'd be wise to get some 'sticky bud' and doritos.
jr

spongeworthy (a nicknam spawned for Puddy on Seinfeld. Patrick Warburton. He played "The Tick" as well). Aside from the culinary descriptions involving variants of the elusive snipe, have you had any success positioning the sub?

Hey Ray,
The Seinfeld reference is correct but it was coined for a potential mate of Elaine's not Puddy. Puddy, coincidentally is my cat (I tawt I saw).
I went back and tried to find where I had read about the crawling method to find a good spot for the sub. It was in a review about the Epic 80 and then right in front of me in the owners manual for the EP350. It did work. Originally I thought placement wouldn't matter because the room is barely big enough to warrant the Epic 80 and the volume knob took care of most problems. There was still a hole in the bass occasionally.
The sub is now on the same wall with the VP 150 and the M80's. I was concerned about a wall of sound but it isn't overwhelming. There may be one better spot but logistically it doesn't work. Additionally, I set the M80's to the large setting with the L+F LRE. This was suggested in other posts and confirmed when I found the newsletter archives yesterday. The article said to use the laege settings for M60's and 80's. Between the two the result has been stunning. There isn't a need to "dial up" over any holes in the sound. It sound so good that sometimes I catch myself chuckling and saying "Would you listen to that!".
I wish to extend a hearty thank you to all you folks. A lot of good advice around here, minus the condescending remarks from those who know it all and aren't afraid to show it.
Next up...crossovers. I'm having some problems with the English/French settings. "Haut-Parleur de Performance Superieur?". "Wee!".
I am so friggin' happy. Take care everyone.

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I'm having some problems with the English/French settings. "Haut-Parleur de Performance Superieur?". "Wee!".

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As long as the display never reads "Pardonnez-moi, monsieur, mais il y a un requin dans ton souliers!" you're fine. (for the monolingual - "Excuse me, mister, but there is a shark in your shoes").

Bren R.

Bren,
My French is limited to what I read on boxes and certain gems uttered by a P. Lepew used in conversation with the fairer sex. What appeared on the display asked about a shark in another wardrobe location, or whether I REALLY liked these speakers. Is that what you audiophiles call a "woofie"?

sponge - glad it all worked out. I just finished reading the the newsletter and saw the sub info. I immediately thought of you and wondered how you were making out (and if the article mentioned the crawling around piece.). I may do the Large setting on my M60s tonight to see how it works. Sounds interesting.

hey ray-

let me know how that 'large' setting works out on your denon. i might like to give it a shot on my onkyo, and see what kind of difference it makes.

bigjohn

bigjohn,
If you want to set your main speakers to large, all you have to do is turn down the crossover knob on your subwoofer until you find a point where the bass matches well with your mains.
At the present time, i have my M60s set to large and i run the crossover point around 50-55Hz. Some receivers will allow for a lower crossover point (less than 80Hz)such that you could still use the receiver to keep your mains set as small with a lower crossover point, but my receiver does not.
I much prefer more of the mid bass to be handled by the M60s. It is not as muddy and predominant. The subwoofer is left to handle the truly low end notes. Be careful you do not turn up your receiver too high though as the extra power required for the M60s to hit lower bass sucks back the watts.

I could be wrong, but aren't you using the line out from your Onk to your sub? If that's the case the Onk wouldn't be sending a signal to the mains any lower than you had the crossover setting on the Onk set to, no?

If you had the sub and speakers run in series I can see how a simply crank of the crossover knob on your sub would do the trick, but I didn't think you had it set up that way.

I could be COMPLETELY wrong on all counts above so forgive me if I am.

ok chess-

right now, i have a 5.1 set-up. all speakers are set to 'small' and the crossover on the receiver is set at 80Hz. now, it can be set to 40Hz and 60Hz on the onkyo 701, so i do have options. but, on my vega LW-12 sub, there are two knobs to adjust.. one is the volume knob, the other is a crossover knob. i usually keep the volume knob between 30%-40% because it gets too boomy and starts to overpower the rest of the system any louder than that. the crossover knob on the sub is set to 80, cuase i figure i should have set it the same as the receiver. is that wrong??

the bass i have is good, not great, but good. but, as you mentioned, if i could set it up to where i could get more of the mid-bass out of the M60's, and just put the low end stuff to the sub, i think i would like that better.

to acheive this, should i set speakers to large, receiver crossover to 60Hz, and the sub knob to 60?? help me out here..

and you mentioned not to turn the reciver too high cause it "sucks back the watts"? what do you mean?

bigjohn

BigJohn,
The June 2003 newsletter said to set the crossover on the subwoofer to it's maximum rotation when setting the fronts to large. Surrounds and the front should be set to small.

bigjohn, if you set your receiver's crossover at 60hz, then all speakers set to "small" will receive no signal below that point. Instead, all those bass signals will be sent to your sub. Setting the M60s to "large" means they will get a full signal, including the LFE. This requires your receiver to amplify more of a signal and your sub less.

I set my M60s to large and toyed with the phase switch until it sounded right. Turn your subs crossover knob all the way up. You will probably then need to adjust the sub volume between music and movies to get both to sound right.

Ok bigj, lets clarify.

You have 2 crossovers to deal with, the receiver's inline and the knob on your sub.
If you are going to use the receiver crossover, then turn the cross knob on the subwoofer all the way up to get it out of the way. Otherwise you have 2 crossovers working at the same (or even a different) point. This causes sonic issues that would be hard to figure out.

Easy summary:

Method One
1) Set mains to Large (this should turn off the receivers crossover setting, if not, do it with whatever manual option you have ...read your receiver manual for this info).
2) Turn knob on subwoofer to around 100Hz crossover. Listen to music.
Have someone turn down the knob slowly so you can hear the effect the changing crossover point has.
3) Adjust the crossover to the point at which the bass sounds best blend with your main speakers. It should not sound muddy, muffled or over bassy. If you turn the cross on the sub too low, the bass should get thin and weak. (For my M60s in my HT room, the cross of about 50-55Hz on the EP350 blends quite well.)
4) Once you have found the best sounding cross point, play with the sub volume or recalibrate all the speakers with Avia or something similar.
5) Test with music and movies and see what you think.

Second method (for those who have a receiver with variable crossover settings under 80Hz)
1) Set mains to Small (this should turn on the receivers crossover setting).
2) Turn knob on subwoofer all the way up. Set the crossover in the receiver to 40Hz to start. Listen to music/movies. Then try the 60Hz value you have. Listen to music/movies.
3) Pick the crossover point that you like best based on the earlier criteria from Method One. Bass should not sound muddy, muffled or over bassy, nor should it sound thin and weak.
4) Once you have found the best sounding cross point, play with the sub volume or recalibrate all the speakers with Avia or something similar.
5) Test with music and movies and see what you think.

The advantage of method one is that you have more control over the exact crossover point compared to the receiver's inline limited settings.
Many will state that you HAVE to set your mains to small regardless of whether they are floorstanding models or not and that you HAVE to use 80Hz as the crossover point. This may be the recommended method by an industry movie standard but it does not mean that movies and music will sound worse if you try other options.
I personally prefer the less dominant bass of the M60s especially for music, over the subwoofer's thumping character. For movies, the subwoofer kicks in where it is really needed, to rumble when i want to feel that explosion or avalanche.

This thread may also be of interest.

In regards to the watts, low frequency notes require more energy to produce especially with smaller drivers. That is why most subwoofers tend to use larger driver sizes and higher rated amps. When driving your main speakers through your receiver on the large setting (or even at small but with a lesser crossover) the smaller drivers on the main speakers require more power to deliver bass notes. Clipping may began at volume levels that did not happen previously when a higher crossover point was used.
Remember, these home receivers usually have one power source for all the many things inside it and all the speakers it drives. You would be amazed at how much cleaner a separate amp can drive your speakers at higher volumes (and i'm not just talking about >100dB either, but even in ranges much lower...anecdote withheld here).

ok bigwill-

i will(no pun intended) try that when i get home.. set speakers to small(which is where they are), crossover to 60HZ from 80Hz, and turn the crossover dial on the sub all the way up.. i think the sub knob goes from 40Hz to 120Hz?? something like that. so you are saying crank it all the over to 120? then adjust the volume accordingly..

got it.. i will make adjustmenst when i get home, thanks.. i would still like to hear what you have to say chess..

whoa, chess posted.. let me read it aboove me..

bigjohn

John, it's highly unlikely that you'll benefit by lowering the 80Hz crossover. Your center and surrounds would be down considerably at 60Hz, which would lead to some weakness in that mid-bass area. Stay with all speakers small and an 80Hz crossover. This isn't something that was selected arbitrarily; extensive tests by THX and confirmed by Nousaine among others showed this to be the best compromise, being high enough to take a significant part of the load off of the speakers and the receiver, but not so high as to make the sub easily localizable.

Yes, turn the crossover control on the sub all the way up to 120Hz to try to get it out of the way of the 80Hz cross the receiver does. As Nousaine's test on the LW-12 showed, there are less boomy subs available, so don't expect to get an ideal balance.

johnk-

i think i will give it a listen to this weekend(when i have time to jack with it), but i reckon i will change it back to the original settings if i dont like the way it sounds.. cool part about this is, i can mess with it and tweak it out, and go back to the original settings when i am done. i figure since i got the technology and ability to check out what it can do, i would be cheating myself if i didnt at least experiement with it a little. it will also give me more 'real-time' experience with how changing settings can alter the sound stage, which will make me more informed when the next guy asks the same question.. make sense??

but i will for sure, crank the sub crossover to its highest setting. and the 'boomy' of the vega sub is very evident to me. i bought it before i really knew what i was getting.. if i would have known then, what i know now, i would have never got it.. but, so it is, and thats what i got.. i have already been dropping hints to the wife about wanting a new one, so she will get used to the idea.. next sub will probably be the HSU STF-2..better days

bigjohn

I've got the STF-2, John. Are there subs that go lower and play louder? You bet. Would you be disappointed with the STF-2? NO WAY! And when you think about what you paid for it, you'll REALLY be happy.

Hey bigjohn, I'll sell you my EP350 (it's no slouch) and I can get one of those SVS cylinders. Just want to get rid of the squalt black box, y'know?

Actually, I watched Fnding Nemo the other night and the EP350 had NO problem with the Darla scene or the whale scene. It did protest during the big fight scene of the Matrix Revolutions, though.

The THX standard for setting up FLOORSTANDING speakers is NOT an absolute standard that applies to all siutations and all ppl and their personal preferences.

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it's highly unlikely that you'll benefit by lowering the 80Hz crossover. Your center and surrounds would be down considerably at 60Hz, which would lead to some weakness in that mid-bass area.

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There is no basis for this statement.
If a surround speaker such as the QS8 has a lower range of 95Hz, then lowering the receiver crossover from 80Hz changes nothing. The QS8 would already be down several dB at 80Hz let alone what it would be at 60Hz.

Weakness in mid bass?
How?
With the mains set to large, the mid bass is still very prominent. With a crossover at 80Hz for surrounds and mains set to small, the only thing playing mid bass is the subwoofer. With the mains set to large, you could potentially have BOTH the mains and the subwoofer playing mid bass sound depending on where the subwoofer crossover is set. You WILL get less boomyness from the mid bass (tighter bass) which is a sound that i prefer.

Come on JohnK, the fear monger attempt at getting ppl to only use a THX method of setting up their home HT/stereo system is sad. Both methods of setup have merit.

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extensive tests by THX and confirmed by Nousaine among others showed this to be the best compromise, being high enough to take a significant part of the load off of the speakers and the receiver, but not so high as to make the sub easily localizable.

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Load off the receiver. This is an old discussion.
You have to consider those who do use separate components with their processor as well as those who do not crank movies to the 100dB range or beyond. To date, my less than top of the line Onkyo is powering 5 speakers and i've had no 'load' problems reaching 90+dB levels. No clipping and no protection shut off.
This argument about receiver load becomes invalid in many situations.

Sub localizable?
Lowering a crossover doesn't change that any. Regardless of the speaker, lower frequencies are not localizable.

For anyone who has a dual use for their sound systems, both music and HT, and do not like the boomy presence of a subwoofer for music, use the mains set to large if you have FLOORSTANDING speakers and disregard the THX standard.
The standard is ONLY a recommendation, not a an absolute rule.

bigjohn, I tried the large setting and not surprisingly, my un-audiophile ears didn't catch any improvement. Fact is, small and the SVS sounded better to me.

On another note, I believe you have a room only marginally smaller than the State of Texas. While spiff rightly hawks the HSU STF-2 as a good sub, you may be well served to call the folks at HSU and SVS. You will find them very similar to the Axiom staff. I believe that you will need a more robust sub than the STF-2. I'm thinking the STF-3 or the SVS 20-39 PC+. You need to fill alot of space. They will really help you with the selection. The guys at SVS actually sold me down to my 20-39 PCi (I had a PC+ in mind). And keep in mind that excellent audio doesn't need to be inexpensive. (I'd double the hints to Shannon)

ray-

i do have a big room.. i just went to the svs site and was looking at the 20-39 PCi. it went for $599+ shipping. i think that would be just about at the limits my wife would let me spend on one component. the PC plus series is around $150-$200 bucks more, and i just know that is a battle that i dont want to fight. it will be hard enough trying to convince her that $600 isn't too much. dont get me wrong here, my wife has been totally cool with all this, i aint trying to bad mouth her none. but to her, it sounds awesome now, but i know it can sound better. plus, with the baby coming, i am sure we can find a much more useful way to spend $600 bucks.

this is still a long ways off.. i figure maybe christmas of next year. but at least that gives me plenty of time to do research.

bigjohn

Bigjohn,
The offer still stands to hear my SVS 20-39 PC+ when you are in town for Rush if that works out...

WhatFurrer

steve-

i just might hit you up on that. i would love to come hear the 20-39 pc+.. i still dont know my plans for that weekend. i got the tix to the show, which is on friday, june 25th, but i dont know if i am gonna stay in austin or SA. i am still waiting to see who is gonna go with me.. if my buddy from austin goes, then i will definitely be there, and will be staying the night, so that saturday(26th) would be grand.

i will PM you and we can discuss there. thanks again, as always.i still got your cell #.

bigjohn