Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Please allow me to introduce myself...

... I'm a man of... nevermind.

Hi. I'm brand new to this forum (in case you couldn't tell). I was directed here by the fine folks at MikePortnoy.com after asking some basic questions about the state of modern music delivery systems (and video for that matter). I don't want to write a book here, but maybe it'll help to know how dumb I am, before you all help me get smart.

I'm 49 years old, and a life-long music player & lover. But over the years I have been criminally negligent with regards to keeping up with advances in technology in stereo systems. It's odd because I am very up on computer stuff. My home stereo system consists of (as it has for 20 years or so) a component receiver/amp with four stereo speaker outs hooked up to four speakers, placed in the 4 corners of my living room. It sounds good, but not great.

Recently people have started talking about 5.1 and 6.1 and I know absoltely nothing about those other than there are speakers that surround you and that there's a sub woofer and then different types of speakers depending on where they are placed. And that this also seems to be a standard relevant to Video/DVDs.

I guess to start off, can someone direct me to something I can read (I'm not typically a gear head) to bring me up to date on the basic changes that have taken place and where the evolution is heading?

Thanks.

Here's a good start for you. Axiom's resident expert, Alan Loftt writes up a nice newletter every month with lots of nifty tips and news. That should give you a good overview without getting all to technical.

How big is that room you've got for your system?

wow, this is the most broad post i have ever read.. man, you got some learning to do. there is such a wide scope of which you need to learn.. but dont worry, we were all there at one time.

i cant research right now, but i am sure someone will lead you in the right direction.. or i can make it easy..

buy axiom speakers, SVS sub, denon dvd/cd player, and an HK receiver.. connect it all together and you should be fine.

enjoy your quest for knowledge!!

bigjohn

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buy axiom speakers, SVS sub, denon dvd/cd player, and an HK receiver.. connect it all together and you should be fine.

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There are of course an infinate combination of speakers, subwoofers, recievers, etc that would put you in audio bliss...

Start off reading those newsletters. That should get you up to speed, then we'll have some fun finding the perfect system for you. btw...Welcome to the boards!

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There are of course an infinate combination of speakers, subwoofers, recievers, etc that would put you in audio bliss

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yes, i was kidding.. research is most important.. first , figure out what kinda system you wanna build.. then, like spiff said, the fun part will be figuring out which brands of components to get.

i got $10 bucks says spiff recommends an HSU sub.. any takers??

bigjohn

Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name.

Welcome, welcome. Speaking for myself (and as a computer geek trying to catch up on audio gear) the researching and reading and hearing and such was at least 1/2 of the fun of this new hobby (obsession). It was like trying to decide which linux distro I wanted or which video card or mobo, etc. Too many choices, but a load of fun!
Read through the materials, check out other forums and listen to as many different speakers as you can afford before making your final decision to purchase Axioms .

jr

OK, I'm reading through A. Lofft's series of articles, just leaving 2002 (hehe). I feel like Data when he would interface with an unknown computer. Meanwhile back here I see the many praises of AXIOM coming up. I understand that the forum is sponsored by them and all, but I gotta know...

Are you guys SALES scum, or real life CONVERTS? Again, not to sound to dumb, but I've never heard of Axiom before.

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SALES scum

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bite your tongue.. this forum is on the axiom site, but we are all just satisfied customers.. there is no 'sponsership' per say. it is just a never ending open discussion about HT, and all things related. and if you become a regualr and see what is said, you will see that most on here have and like other brands of speakers.. this forum is just one of the lighter/funner(is that a word) forums in which to discuss and learn about HT and stereo in general.

none of us are paid, and none of us have any economic ties to axiom.. well, other than the fact that we bought, and continue to buy speakers from them!!

bigjohn

Nope...we're all Axiom buyers. On occasion Alan Lofft will post on here, and on RARE occasisons Ian and Amie themselves show up, but for the most part these boards are just happy Axiom owners.

Same here PapaJim.
About 9 months ago I got the upgrade itch. First I got a new receiver. I went from an open box sony w/o a remote to an Onkyo 601 (on sale for about $350 total). I then decided I need new speakers. So I read up on a whole slew of speakers, most of which were waaaay outside my price range.
I kept seeing two names that fit my price range. Axiom and Ascend. I auditioned the Axioms after reading a lot of positive reviews on hometheaterforum, avsforum, thespot, hometheaterspot. Even the negative reviews were more about personal preference than true shortcomings (at least as I read it). I had intended to also audition the Ascends, but they are just plain butt ugly and I am just metro enough to care. Plus I loved my M22s from the get go so I was hooked and stupidly happy.
I've also been just waiting for my younger brother to get his own place so I have an excuse to buy him his first pair. Same goes for the youngest sister.

jr

prostelitizing convert not salesman

Oh Jim! If you only knew what you're getting yourself into; both by coming to this forum for advice (there a lot of looneys around here), and by becoming interested in the latest technological advances. So get a tight hold on your wallet, be brave and lets begin.

CNET has a quick guide to surround formats.

Dolby will have more info.

This will have info on home Theater as well as audio.

And finally, here are links to 800 million articles about everything you ever wanted to know, and a whole bunch you didn't.

Actually, Papa, I can only vouch for myself.

I am not an employee of Axiom.

As for all those other guys... I think they're ALL the same person. I think they're all psuedonyms of Brent at Axiom.

Hehe. Even your brother?

Hah! I can tell I'm going to like it here. Usually my being a smartass is a BAD thing, but I can see it will help me fit right in here! Oh, and I meant SALES SCUM in the most affectionate way possible, I mean considering that they are Salesman and Scum. :-/

(Where the hell are the smilies in this place???)

Smilies ar pretty much a do it yourself thing around here.

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Usually my being a smartass is a BAD thing, but I can see it will help me fit right in here!

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NAH! Your just catching us on a good day. Wait until the fur starts to fly! HAH!

Yeah, just talk about the sonic quailty of your cables or the warmth of your solid state amp.



jr

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I feel like Data when he would interface with an unknown computer.

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Are you talking about episode 4.3 or 7.3/7.4?

j/k

Been reading all morning now and I think I've hit data saturation point. My cross-over's are starting to blur into Bi-poles and it's all sounding like BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.

And I guess you guys weren't kidding. I'm terrified. Looks like I gots to throw most of my stuff out and start over. It even looks like I'm might have to redesign my living room. And the wife and kids? They'll all have to go. They cost too much.

But being a self-respecting obsessive compulsive, I'm having to fight that primal urge that tells me to run down to BestBuy and just buy it all right NOW! Must control urges. Must survive. Must have better sounds. (man it's crowded in here)

But realistically, where do you start? Should I get a special receiver that has 5.1? Some of my existing speakers can be used in the new configuration until I can afford the specialzed bi-whatever surround thingees right? Right now I've got a decent sub-woofer wired directly to a "sub-woofer out" jack on my DVD player and it sounds really cool. Of course it ISN'T part of my audio stereo system. I have 2 bookshelf speakers wired to a standard stereo receiver that is JUST used for the DVD/Video sound. Those bookshelves sit on top of my much larger audio speakers that are used by another receiver dedicated to (you guessed it) just audio. And then there's another set of those big audio speakers in the remaining two corners of the room. Can I use some of that? Where do I start?

And another serious question: I actually ran some speaker wires under the carpet when we last got carpet installed, but there isn't a clean shot to half the room because of a door way coming into the living room. How do you run wires under the rug without demolishing the carpet? Why aren't speakers all wireless??????

Unless your current electronics are absolute crap (like they're oozing goo and melting), then I always recommend buying the main (front left and right) speakers first. They will give you instant results.

Then, I'd move on to a new receiver, then center and surrounds, then sub. OR, you can do the sub before the surrounds and center -- your choice.

i agree with pmbuko if you do a majority of just stereo or cd listening. start with your left and right fronts, and build from there.

but, if you are into movies, and want the instant gratification of the full 5.1/6.1 surround effect, then i would get the receiver first. even with old/bad speakers, at least with an HT receiver, you will get your first listen to what the DTS/Dolby Digital/Pro logic/etc, decoding can do for dvd.

IMO, it just really depends on what you plan on using the system for the most. i was lucky enough to have been in the position to order it all at the same time, so i cant say that i can relate. but, i am sure you will continue to get advice, and if people disagree with me, or think i am wrong, they will tell you!!

thats my $.02 cents.

bigjohn

The great thing about today's tech is that with the right speakers, and electronics, you can get full enjoyment from both music AND movies with one system. (Yes, I know many people still have separate systems, myself included - but honestly it's more because of the hobby aspect of this compulsion than true need.)

I got a little foggy when you began describing what you've currently got. At first I thought you had four speakers in one room...but now I'm not sure. Do you have two separate rooms?

What is your goal? If indeed you do have a dedicated room for audio, is that room going to also serve as your HT? (dvd's, TV, etc...?) or is that room going to be without sights...just sounds?

If you have two separate rooms that need upgrading, I'm guessing you have the audio only room, and then the usual livingroom, no?

My existing setup is:

2 Stereo Receivers (1 for audio, 1 for video)
4 Big-ass stereo speakers in the four corners of the living room wired ONLY to the audio system
Sitting right on top of the two BA stereo speakers on the side of the room that the TV is on, are 2 bookshelf speakers used only by the video receiver
1 Sub-Woofer wired to the "sub woof out" on the DVD player (I know this is unusual)

One of the "issues" now is that I don't have 5.1 (or anything really like it) for video. Just stereo and BASS.

But this all came up because people were talking about how great some classic albums are that have been remixed in 5.1. That made me wonder where I would have to go to convert my existing mess to modern standards and take advantage of 5.1 technology for both my Audio AND Video uses. There's GOT to be some synergy there.

Compared to most people I know I would be considered a VIDEO addict, though I think in HERE I'm probably pretty moderate. But when it comes to music, I'm totally immersed. I do concert promotions, I have a web-radio show, and on and on.

OK, now I'm just rambling. :/

Hiya Jim, I'm a bit late getting here (that annoying work thing). Welcome to the party. Let me reiterate the notion that reading through the forums and absorbing the postings will get you a good leg up. Also, for some balance, go over the AVS Forum (Speaker forum) and the Spot. I had never heard of Axiom until I started wandering through the other 2 forums and that led me here to a place where lunatics are given way to much access to keyboards.

There are two important components you will need to provide 1) room size and 2) budget. bigjohn wasn't far off with his quick & dirty recommendations, but the information on size & $$$ will allow us to provide an avalanche of bad and misleading advice.

Even with all of the research, you will need to embrace the thought that you just can't have too much audio and that you need to get enough stuff to assure that upgradeitis and the "what-if" gremlins don't come to visit. We can help overachieve in this area. Let the choosing and spending begin.

But what's puzzling you is the nature of my game.....

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Are you guys SALES scum, or real life CONVERTS?

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Nah, this is all just a vast right wing conspiracy and now you've been assimilated.

WAY OT. Keep seeing this thread title and all I think of is Austin Powers...

"Allow myself to introduce myself..."

Jim, just on the off chance you absorb enough info to get yourself comfortable, ecost (authorized Denomn etailer) has a slug of equipment available here . Search the board on "ecost" and you'll find lotsa happy campers.

The 2803 and 3803 receivers are steals. Likewise the DVD 2200 or 2900. For a 5 disc CD/progressive scan DVD player (with excellent PQ), I picked up a DVM-4800 and it's wonderful.

Might be early in the game for you to make decisions, but the models I mentioned are all mid to top o the line and each is at LEAST half of the original MSRP.

On blind faith, the 2803 and 2200 would be great. the 3803 and 2900 would be better. I hope this is helpful.

OK, the room size is roughly 15 x 24. The TV is along one of the 15 foot walls (if that makes any difference).

I was looking online at BestBuy and they have a Pioneer receiver 5x100watts with Dolby 5.1 for $179. ( http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1077628262859&type=product&productCategoryId=cat03031&skuId=6364846 ) Is there something special I'm looking for besides those basic specs? Is this a decent receiver for what we've been discussing?

Hiya PapaJ. Glad to see you're fitting in already. Welcome to the insanity. As you can tell, the folks around here are a bunch of loons, but boy do we have a great time. With a 15' x 24' room, you have plenty of space to put together a really enjoyable system. First things first (as others have already said) I would come up with a budget of what you have available to spend or you also have the option of putting things together one component at a time. I suppose it also depends on how badly you want to be ready for the release of The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway on SACD as well. Anyway, just keep poking around and have fun taking in the plethora of audio info. Oh and there are a few Porcupine Tree fans around here as well as prog fans, so feel free to discuss music anytime. Oh yeah, and make sure you check to see if there are any Axiom owners around you. I'm sure they'd be glad to show off their system for you.

Thanks ST. Now how about my question about the receiver??? Is it a bad one? A bad price?

If CalProg sells out I'll have a GOOD budget. Ifnot.... I'll be buying it one piece at a time.

I know it's a bit more money, but I'd agree that you really look into some Denon gear from Ecost.

The AVR 1804 receiver and DVD-2200 look like a darn good deal to me. That will give you full 5.1 surround for both movies AND music. The DVD-2200 plays CD's, DVD's, SACD's, as well as DVD-A's.

Speakers for a room that size...assuming you want some Axioms:

M60ti or M50ti for your main channels
VP150 for your center channel
and QS8 surrounds.

And of course a Hsu subwoofer. Probably the STF-2 would suit your needs very well.

With this setup you'll have full 5.1 surround for your DVD's, excellent 2 channel audio for your standard 2 channel sources, and 5.1 surround for any SACD or DVD-A titles you pick up. (Such as Pink Floyd's DSOTM, and Elton John's Goodbye Yellowbrick Road)

It's not a small amount of money, but much like your last system lasted you many, many years - this one would too.

Consider it an investment in your entertainment for the next 10 years.

fyi...just so you know we're not totally Axiom biased, you should also try and listen to some Ascend Acoustics, B&W 700 series, Energy Veritas, Thiel, and Definitive Technology speakers. Those are just a few other brands that I've heard and enjoyed. (Be warned though, most of them don't have the buyer friendly prices that Axiom has though!)

It makes me think of Sympathy for the Devil.

OK, detail wise. What kind of speakers, what kind of receivers?

Oh yeah, welcome to the boards and stuff!

papajim-

i would stay away from the 'mainstream, cookie cutter' type amps and receivers. they are just of a poor quality and wont last or have the functions/ability that a higher end receiver can give you. i would stay away from your basic kenwood, pioneer, sony units. NOW, with that said, sony and pioneer do have a higher grade series of equip that is as good as the other stuff that we have suggested.. the pioneer elite series is good, and the sony ES series is good also.. but those are their much higer priced units than the one you were looking at.

good brands you need to probably go with are.. denon, onkyo, harmon kardon(HK), yamaha and for amps nad, outlaw, and rotel. you wont find a better band for buck value than with those names.

bigjohn

There's nothing wrong with a "low-end" Sony or Pioneer amp. My dad had his Sony 2 Channel reciever for ten years before it burned out on him(in the reciever's defense, my dad was playing 4 Bose speakers simultaneously on the A+B configuration the entire 10 years). My Sony 5 channel amp I've had for two years and it has shown no signs of letting up (although I plan to upgrade it WAY before it would need replacing). Will the Denon's and HK's provide a little more power and features? Yes, but a simple Sony or Pioneer will play 5.1 in both DD or DTS modes. And thats all you really need. Now I along with everyone else would recommend investing a little more in the reciever, but don't let everyone else "muscle" you into buying something you don't want to.

My Dad's PSB's sound just as good playing through my Sony STR DE 595 as they do through his Denon 1604.

I also am new here but have been into HT for some time after much research on speakers I decided to give AXIOM spkrs(M60's&vp150) a try.Was looking for high end sound for entry level money.Was prepared to send back if not satisfied.Well these speakers are amazing to say the least hearing things I never heard before in both HT & stereo.If you want more reviews by users of these speakers go to audioreview.com.Believe the hype.
al

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I feel like Data when he would interface with an unknown computer.

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Man what a geek! A man after my own heart! My own geek credentials include seeing the midnight show opening day of all 3 LOTR movies, wearing a black trench coat and sunglasses to the opening of "Matrix Reloaded", listening to Pink Floyd and Mike Oldfield almost daily, having seen just about every episode of "Star Trek: The Next Generation", still listening to prog rock (Porcupine Tree, anybody), being able to recite all the dialogue by heart whenever watching any of the original Star Wars trilogy, and having a geek wife (who owns every episode of "The Highlander available on DVD), and 2 geek kids (my daughter went with me to see the new Harry Potter movie yesterday, and the first words out of her mouth after the credits rolled were "When can we see it again").

That said, you will find a wonderful world of information here and elsewhere that will allow you to put together a sound system that will deliver movies and music more beautifully than you can presently imagine.

I do have a couple of suggestions.

1. Make sure you get a DVD player that can play SACD's and DVD-Audio. The currently available recordings of "Dark Side of the Moon", "Tubular Bells 2003", and "In Absentia" alone make this a must.

2. Get the best speakers you can. Speakers are going to be the most expensive component in your system, and also have the most influence on your sound quality. The difference in sound quality between competing receivers is nonexistent to negligible, The difference between speakers can be great. You can do a lot worse than Axiom for speakers, and you'd be hard pressed to do better for anything less that twice the price.

3. Get a receiver that has the features you want at a price you can afford. All mid to high range receivers should be fairly transparent soundwise. The idea that certain components blend better with certain speakers is unsupported by any objective evidence.

4. Don't buy into the expensive wire idea. Buy decent quality interconnects and Home Depot speaker wire, and use your savings to get better speakers.

5. As soon as everything is set up, toss the SACD of "Dark Side of the Moon" in your universal player and prepare for a profound spiritual experience.

Mark

That Pioneer you saw at Best BUy (it appears similar to the one I have in the gameroom, but newer) is very basic. If you had any intention of putting together a home theater that sounds awesome, it probably won't do it.
It doesn't allow you to adjust the volume level of each channel, I don't think it has any bass management, and it is not the most powerful receiver around. Reason number one is enough to dismiss it. Look at some of the refurbed units of higher quality if you're serious (but cheap ).

(warning, my links require adobe acrobat reader)

Actually, the more expensive Denons are a _lot_ better. The lower Yamaha models and the lower denon models http://www.homecinemachoice.com/frame.html?http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/displayreview.php?reviewid=3691

Most of them only do 35-40 watts per channel, and if you're going to pay a lot(since you're beginning this hobby after a long time, I assume you'd expect good performance from electronics with $400 price tags on them), you're going to want something a bit more powerful. Going for a refurbished higher end unit, such as the denon at ecost yeilds MUCH better results. Try and find a cheap Harman Kardon AVR 330, Denon 2803 or 3803. If you want to go for a lower price, try to find a cheap Panasonic digital amped receiver. They go 80 watts with all channels running no problem, which is an insane value for their low price - and it doesn't even horrible(if this isn't reassuring, I just don't know what would be. )

Go for a refurb 525 if you can, over the 330.

PapaJim;

I would avoid buying anything from the B&M (brick & mortar) stores like Best Buy and Circuit City, unless you do your research elsewhere and you decide you want a product that they carry at a good price. I go to a Best Buy on a regular basis (to buy DVD's and CD's), and as far as I can tell, the speakers they carry are mostly crap. They do not carry Denon, Onkyo, HK or the upper lever Yamahas and Pioneer receivers. Good receivers, as I have said elsewhere, will sound equivalent, so you can find one with the features, power, and looks that you like at a satisfactory price and be confident it will sound good. The refurbished Denon and Karmon Kardon gear available at e-cost include some out and out steals.

Speakers are a bit trickier. When you buy them at a store, you have the comforting illusion of being able to listen before you buy. The illusion is that the store can manipulate the signal to make just about any speaker sound good or bad in their store. The acoustics of a store listening room are also quite different than those of your living room. Those speakers that you loved in the store might just sound like junk when you ge them home. Getting a set of Axioms, sound unheard, that you can audition in your home for up to 30 days without risking anything but return postage isn't quite as crazy as it sounds. Also, check the thread entitled "Auditioning Axioms in your area" in the "Questions and Comments" forum to see if anybody in your area has a set of Axioms you can audition. Most all of us are proud of our systems, and eager to show them off.

Mark

Ya I found someone in my area, listened to some Axioms and after going to every place in town, there was nuttin even comparible for the price. I'll be getting some Axioms within a months time I think.

I think PapaJim has gone off to "bale up a 5-sheeter."

No sheets to the wind. No wind broken.

It's all I could do to make it through last week without hocking my children's college education. But I have been thinking about everything that has been said here. I think I'm convinced that I want to try the Ax speakers. I know (as does any self respecting geek) that you are all correct when you point out that speakers can make or break an entire system. I'm also about 85% convinced that I should get a higher end receiver than I would if left to my own devices.

But not being ready to plop down my entire load at once (as a geezer I've learned to pace myself in ALL things), now I'm wondering if I might get more immediate gratification by buying a pair of speakers FIRST. I listen to music every day, and those would start paying off right away. They should also be usable with an upgraded DVD system, whenever I do it. If I just get a new receiver now, outside of jerry-rigging my old hodge-podge of speakers into some kind of poor-man's 5.1 system, it would probably be a while before I made the next purchase, and by itself, I can't see a new receiver making that much difference. At least not like speakers would.

Am I thinking straight my brothers?

The only comeback I would make is this. The front speakers first and building yourself into a 5.1 system is certainly viable. If you can swing it, I think you will find a new receiver at the same time would make a difference. I again mention the Denon 1804 or 2803 at ecost, but those are only only 2 of several choices that would work well for you. If you choose to wait, you shouldn't lose any sleep over the decision. Whatever you decide to do - you will love the Axioms. Have at it big guy!!

What are your old speakers (other than big-ass )? Maybe they're oldies but goodies?

Hey Ray! We got another geezer! I wonder if he's as much a geezer as we are?

I may have you all beat ,I,ll be 69 on Sunday.

Happy Birthday Frank! Yup, you got me beat by 10. A real "Geezer." Keep on Truckin'.

This is WONDEFUL. It's been a LONG time since I wasn't the oldest guy in da house. I'm clocking in at a spry 49. Hell, living to 69 is beyond my wildest dream.

The speakers I have? Well, I am absolutely terrible with model numbers, software release levels, and other numeric identifiers. The one pair I've had since college that just keep on kicking ass over EVERYTHING are a little pair of Yamaha speakers. I think they've got like a 8 or 10" with a tweeter. The other ones are... uhhh... BIG ASS speakers.

HAH! A punk kid!

Frank - nice to see another old drooler cavorting with the pups here.

Jim, believe me, another 10 or 15 will tick off faster than you can imagine. Some of the things I had in mind when I did the whole HT setup were 1) I won't be replacing the stuff in a couple of months, so live a little, 2) I didn't want to be "almost happy" and 3) I'm gonna be dead for a long time. The time to enjoy is NOW.

Maybe you guys can get Jack to tell you the story about how dirt was invented. He was there to see it happen .

Oh yeah, I forgot how old you geezers are. Probably should put that HT together before it's too late, eh PapaJim?

Hey, Papajim... funny you use the Zig Zag package guy for an avatar... I found out one of the electrical engineers at my second place of work used to instruct people how to know me by telling them to "look for the guy that looks like the gent from the Zig Zag package".

I shaved off my beard the next day.

Bren R.

Zig Zag man? What are you talking about? That's an actual photograph of me!

OK, so I'm loking at the Denon page and I come across this: http://www.ecost.com/ecost/ecsplash/shop/detail.asp?action=detail&dpno=199034#scroll Now this looks like it has everything you all have been talking about, AND it's cheap... errrr... INEXPENSIVE. What am I missing? Please tell me because I'm ready to press the buy button.

Also, I know this is a whole 'nother trip, but what is 5.1 vs 6.1 vs DTS vs DOLBY Digital vs Pro-Logic II ( Pro-logic I has already become obsolete?) and so on? Am I going to buy a receiver today that won't play the DVD's of tommorow?

Well I'm gonna be not much help on the receiver. Just taking a quick glance at it I noticed that it has no phono inputs; no S-video, or component inputs (important if you want to run your video through your receiver); only 2 digital inputs (1 coax, 1 optical - not really enough); and is really only 70W per channel. Repeating that I really don't know that much about this model, I'd rather see you with the 1804 ($299). But, If others more knowledgeable disagree, I'd listen to them.

This should help you understand 5.1/6.1/7.1/DTS/DD, etc.

Yes, Dolby PLI is obsolete, And, I hate to break it to you, but Dolby PLIIx has been released now, so PLII is fading into the sunset also. (I don't think "obsolete" is the proper word. It's just that there are now newer technologies available.)

Jim, if $$ are a concern, the 483 should tide you over nicely until you can get a big burly receiver later.. The 883 ($219) would give you 6.1. I am with Jack though - if you can swing $299, the 1804 is an awesome receiver at thea price. All that said - no mistakes with any of the three choices.

Hey PapaJ, If you're looking at the Denon DVD-2200's at ecost, then you've found a great deal. I got one back when they first got them in stock and I've really enjoyed it. Plus the price is an absolute steal. I wouldn't worry too much about them being refurbished because mine doesn't have a scratch on it and has never had a jitter.

Papajim,

Ray and Jack's suggestion of the 1804 refurb at E-cost for $299 is great but if you look you can find the 884 refurb at E-Cost which is essentially the same unit from their more B&M store line for $279. In fact if you check the Denon website the manual for this receiver the front page says AVR 1804/884 right on it. Just type in Denon in the search box on E-Cost, they are right next to each other and their description is identical. Hey $20 is $20 right.