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Re: Paul M. Johnson
#49855 06/21/04 10:44 PM
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First, a big thank you to EVERYONE for keeping this thread civil (and thus undeleted).

In reply to:

Does your world view permit the possibility that not only is a religious war being waged against non Muslims by Muslims but that nothing is required of you other than your religion and being in the wrong place at the wrong time for you to be a player here?


My world view is quite a bit wider than yours, I think. I am not blind to the violence that is being brought upon non-muslims by radical muslims. People without respect for human life, regardless of nationality or religion, are evil. It doesn't matter if Paul worked for a company that helped put Apache attack helicopters in the air. He was a human being, and his life was sacred. His being an American is immaterial to the value of his life.

I am also not blind to the fact that most muslims are NOT radicals and are decent human beings, to boot. There is really much less difference between a (non-US) Muslim and a US citizen as you might think. We all just want to live safe, peaceful lives -- and make money.

Last edited by pmbuko; 06/21/04 10:46 PM.
Re: Paul M. Johnson
#49856 06/22/04 05:30 AM
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I don't think anyone here wants an all out war against all Arabs/Muslims. But we are in an all out war against these terrorists. You just can't compromise with those "people".


Re: Paul M. Johnson
#49857 06/22/04 06:31 AM
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In any case, they're at war with us whatever we do.


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Re: Paul M. Johnson
#49858 06/22/04 06:44 AM
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Not true. They weren't at war with us 40 years ago...

Re: Paul M. Johnson
#49859 06/22/04 07:04 AM
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Arab countries were busy hustling us 40 years ago by playing the US against the Soviet Block. Doesn't mean that they weren't at war with us, just wasn't a hot war. The Muslim Brotherhood has been at war with the West since Napoleon humiliated the Marmalukes in Egypt. Wahab and Saud made a partnership which enabled them to kick the Hashemites out of Arabia, dominate competing tribes and warlords - a successful partnership based on virulent xenophobia and anti-Westernism. Nasserism was an anti-Western, anti-Jewish, violent experssion of fascistic nationalism.


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Re: Paul M. Johnson
#49860 06/22/04 10:19 PM
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2x6, your history is a little off.

Napoleon defeated the Marmalukes in 1798. The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928, a full 120 years later, as a result of the 1924 collapse of the Islamic/Ottoman "Khilafa" (central leadership and unity). In part, the collapse came about after a territorial dispute over -- you guessed it -- Jerusalem, which was then possessed by the Ottoman Empire, could not be solved diplomatically. The Zionist movement convinced Western countries (England, France) to assist in the dissolution of the empire. Come WWI, the West was collaborating with Arab revolts against the Ottoman Empire. They also started a campaign of Christian preaching and the building of Christian schools and churches. The goal was to convert Muslims to Christianity -- or conquest from within.

So, a lot of the movements you mention were a direct result of the West's policy toward what we now refer to as the Middle East. We, the West, are as much at fault for religious war.

Re: Paul M. Johnson
#49861 06/22/04 10:43 PM
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Muslim Jihadists beheaded Kim Sun-Il today. Must be our fault. Islamic law is sensitive on the subject of conversion - you may recall that Islam converted its neighbors at the point of a sword with the choice, convert or die. Interesting that Islamic law provides the death penalty by beheading for any Muslim who converts to another faith. Freedom of religion at work? That same law provides for the death penalty for anyone who attempts to convert a Muslim to another faith.

As to the history - The ease with which the French swept aside the Marmalukes stunned the Islamic world which reacted with a fundamentalist, anti-Western, anti-modernist movement which was the forebearer of Wahabism and the Muslim Brotherhood.

The "Zionists," didn't convince anyone to dismantle the Ottoman Empire. You may recall the Ottoman Empire was on the losing side of World War I. France, England and Russia didn't need anyone to convince them to dismantle the senescent and backward Ottoman Empire.

Beheading is not a way of life.

Last edited by 2x6spds; 06/22/04 10:55 PM.

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Re: Paul M. Johnson
#49862 06/22/04 10:54 PM
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You can point your finger the other direction all you want, but you cannot dispute the fact that the West has had one big huge hand in the cookie jar of events leading up to this latest bloodshed. Take off your blinders.

This latest beheading is absolutely horrible. I feel for Kim Sun-Il's parents and everyone else who know him. I hope the 3000 new troops South Korea is sending will help bring stability to the area.

Re: Paul M. Johnson
#49863 06/22/04 11:18 PM
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OK, it must be our fault that Jihadists are beheading Hindus, Philippinos, Americans, Jews, Koreans, Christian Missionaries ... all over the world! Someone has to take responsibility for their actions and their normative culture's values. I guess Mohammed Atta was our fault as well - the World Trade Center atrocities, the Pentagon atrocities, the Khobar Tower atrocities, the atrocities!

How is all that our fault? Time for societies which celebrate evil conduct to take responsibility!


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Re: Paul M. Johnson
#49864 06/23/04 12:12 AM
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I didn't say it was our fault. I'm just saying nobody lives in a vacuum.
In reply to:

Time for societies which celebrate evil conduct to take responsibility!


I'm also not trying to defend the actions of evil militants. They are fully to blame for their individual choices. I realize there is an atmosphere of resentment and distrust of the West, and that this atmosphere has bred people cabable of murdering those they disagree with in cold blood. But until the silent, peaceful majority gain a voice, they cannot be blamed for what is happening. They are currently living in fear.

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