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#53579 - 09/21/04 07:51 AM Re: Holy crap
TurboDog1 Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 342
PM - I think I have to side w/ these guys on this. I think that we all agree that there are practicing Muslims around the world that want to live peaceful lives like the rest of us. However, at this juncture in world history, Islam is solely responsible for a vast amount of terror, suffering, and hatred. You ask us to separate the religion from our hatred for the terrorists. The problem with that request is that their religion forms the underpinning of their quest. I was talking about this with my Dad this weekend.....They aren't fighting simply to get us out of their region....they are not fighting for the "little guy" on the street....they are fighting because they hate us.....they are fighting because we are infidel that threatens to disrupt/corrupt their Muslim existence. If you believe that, then it's difficult to separate the two.

Also, as others have stated, I don't see any part of the Muslim world standing up and condemning what has been done in the past and what is still going on at the hands of these animals. Hell, I don't remember even seeing it from any Muslim groups here in the US...even after 9/11. Until that changes, I see no reason to cut them any slack. They have a radical segment of their religion that is committing atrocities around the world and they don't have the balls to stand up and say to the world that it is wrong and is not indicative of Islam's core tenets. It's pathetic.

2X6 - Honest question: Where did you learn so much about the region, the politics, the history, etc? As we have seen numerous times in this thread, you have a substantial understanding of the region, both past and present. So, I was just curious whether it was from a college major or simply from personal education (ie Internet, Media).

INANE - I think that there are quite a few of us here that either consider ourselves to be Libertarian or at least maintain views that are in line with the Libertarian party. Personally, I think that the party will not gain any major headway in our political system until they grow up and back-burner the legalize hemp/marijuana argument. I will assert that there are many that believe in this argument, even on the left and right. However, I think that this issue marginalized the party, because it's a petty issue when considered in the context of terrorism, social security, taxes, and the economy. Yes, it should be a long-term goal for the party, but it certainly should not remain at the center of the party's platform. If it does, the Libertarian party has no chance of attaining any level of prominence.

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#53580 - 09/21/04 09:28 AM Re: Holy crap
Riffman Offline
local

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 242
I think its quite unbelievable the talk of tolerant, peaceful, modern Islam when every Arab country kicked the Jews out of their country 50 years ago (as compared to the 1 million Palestinians who are Israeli citizens). And Syria and Iran continue to support Hezbollah and Hamas. Give me a break!

I enjoyed 2X6spds comments about living in today's world, not during the Crusades or any other time. I am so sick of people trying to mitigate what some Islamists do today by making a meaningless comparison to the past. Talk about a fallacy if there ever was one.




Edited by Riffman (09/21/04 09:47 AM)

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#53581 - 09/21/04 09:42 AM Re: Holy crap
Riffman Offline
local

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 242
and if anyone wants to realize what a sham the UN is, all they have to do is look at how Russia and China opposed sanctions for Sudan because they have oil interests there that will be affected. talk about blood for oil. sheesh!

And, German newspaper Die Welt reported that Syria used chemical weapons in Sudan in conjunction with the Sudanese Arabs.

Sudan and its Arab 'genociders' still sit on the UN human rights council.

...but none of this matters as much as it should because we of the west killed a bunch of Arabs almost a thousand years ago.


Edited by Riffman (09/21/04 09:46 AM)

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#53582 - 09/21/04 01:35 PM Re: Holy crap
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
Everybody in the world knows (including the terrorists) we want to get our guys out of Iraq ASAP. The quickest and easiest way for everyone to get that to happen would be to support the fledgling democratic gov't in Iraq, support fair elections in Iraq, and stop supporting the "insurgents". However, a stable democratic Iraq would be an acknowledgement of the US power to shape events in the middle east in a positive way, and an acknowledgement of the rights of Moslem people to have representative gov't in a part of the world where that is frowned upon. So they continue to blow people up?
If the people of Islam are so peaceful, peace loving, and noble, then they must certainly be deserving of the blessings of democracy - don't you think, pmb? Some people don't think a democracy in Iraq is possible. Is there something in their religion or otherwise present in their culture, which prevents the countries in the area from having anything but cruel despotic gov'ts that not only oppress their own people and threaten the security of their neighbors, but give rise to dangerous fanatics that have shown their intent to kill innocent civilians in the west?
If we let the despots and theocracies continue to flourish in the Middle East, there will be no doubt as to whether Islam is a peaceful religion or not.

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#53583 - 09/21/04 01:59 PM Re: Holy crap
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
The UN General Assembly (190 members) is dominated by the 54 Muslim countries and the non-aligned nations which together control the General Assembly. The 115 non-aligned nations have much in common with each other - for the most part they are impoverished, debt ridden states run by thugs, which hate America. In this regard, they obviously have much in common with the Muslim voting bloc nations of the UN.

This fierce alliance has established the moral agenda of the UN. Silent on the Arab genocide against blacks in Darfur, Muslim massacres in Nigeria, Chad, thunderously silent on the genocide in Rwanda, absolutely silent as to the rampant slavery in Sudan, Somalia, Chad, Nigeria, etc. etc etc!!! Nevertheless, this is the group which passed the Zionism is Racism UN resolution (eventually repealed), which has hijacked UNESCO which now debates the problem brought to the UN's attention by Arab states, including Syria, accusing Jews of using the blood of Muslim children for the manufacture of Matzoh, the unleavened Passover bread. This is the same group and organization which is thuderously silent as to the horrible near slave status of women in Muslim societies, the appalling levels of ignorance, illiteracy among Muslim populations in general and the incredible illeteracy levels among Muslim women worldwide. Yet, the cry of moral outrage heard from this coallition of Muslim and Non-Aligned states is directed against the United States and Israel. Go figure!

Here is an interesting petition to the UN:

_____________________________

Coalition for the Defense of Human Rights : An International Civil Rights Movement for the Victims of Jihad and Islamization

Petition to the United Nations Against Religious Apartheid:

To: H.E. the Secretary-General of the United Nations, Mr. Kofi Annan;

The Coalition for the Defense of Human Rights is an umbrella coalition representing various organizations from the following communities: Arab-Christian, Armenian, Assyrian, Bahai, Buddhist, Copt, Hindu, Humanist Muslim, Ibo, Maronite, Nubian, secular intellectuals, Southern Filipino, Slavic-Christian, Southern Sudanese, Syriac, West African, and women's groups.

We gather to demonstrate our determination to protest the treatment of religious and ethnic minorities, as well as women and moderate and secularized Muslims in Islamic lands. We are here also to cry out against the murderous ideology of radical Islamism, which, by dividing humankind into worthy Muslims and inferior "infidels" is wreaking havoc throughout the world.

In the face of growing attacks and oppression of religious and ethnic minorities in Islamic lands, we respectfully make the following two demands upon the appropriate organs of the United Nations:

1. We call upon you today to appoint a Special Rapporteur to investigate the status and conditions of non-Muslim minorities, women, and humanist, moderate Muslims in states ruled by Islamic majorities. Such a rappoteur must investigate the following conditions.

Equality Under Law: What is the status, both in law and in practice, of these groups, and of individuals belonging to these groups? Do the laws in these nations discriminate against religious minorities? Do members of these groups have the same rights to assemble, speak, publish, and associate as those in the majority? Can members of these classes be elected to governmental and representative bodies? Is there a government policy of discriminating against the hiring of members of these classes? Does the government allow or encourage radical anti-minority organizations to abuse, threaten or otherwise oppress minority populations? Do the agencies that enforce the laws represent all groups in society?

Religious rights and freedom: Do members of minority faiths have the right to practice their faiths freely? Do they have the right to proselytize? Do members of the majority faith have the right to choose another faith?

Cultural equality: Are the rights and cultures of national, religious, and ethnic minorities respected?

Teaching of hatred and contempt: What is the view of these classes promoted by the government and the general culture?

2. We call upon the United Nations to condemn the ideology of Jihad-Islamism as a form of religious apartheid, which divides humankind into exalted Muslims and inferior "infidels."

Radical Jihad-Islamism is a supremacist, quasi-racist ideology that is now waging terrorist war worldwide against innocent men, women and children it labels "infidels." This ideology is supporting religious wars against non-Islamist Muslims and non-Muslim infidels worldwide. It is seeking to establish Apartheid-like regimes similar to those in Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Sudan, to subjugate and control "infidels." It legitimizes and extends human rights abuses - including slavery - on a massive scale. It employs a global economic resource (oil) as a weapon against non-Muslim nations in the service of its goals. It is the duty of the United Nations, which came into being as a result of racist Nazism, to condemn and to combat any ideology which defines some part of the human race as inferior.

Radical Jihad-Islamism must be condemned as a form of cultural, racial, religious and ethnic discrimination, and the United Nations should equate it with Colonialism and Imperialism. It should condemn its teaching to any community or school and it should call for a "corrective teaching" to seek to undo the hatred that it has engendered in peoples who have been taught the ideology. Further, the U.N. should condemn all current Jihad wars and call on nations waging such wars to cease violating the rights of ethnic and religious minorities and peoples. Finally, the U.N. should intervene to protect the rights and lives of religious and ethnic minorities and non-Islamist Muslims in Afghanistan, Algeria, Egypt, Indonesia, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia Sudan, and Syria.
We would like to meet with you about our concerns, and we wait with hope and prayer, your considered response.

Sincerely,
Fr. Keith Roderick
Secretary General
_______________________

What do you think the chances for that petition are before the moral imbeciles who run the UN?



Edited by 2x6spds (09/21/04 02:02 PM)
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#53584 - 09/21/04 02:40 PM Re: Holy crap
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
In reply to:

If the people of Islam are so peaceful, peace loving, and noble, then they must certainly be deserving of the blessings of democracy - don't you think, pmb?


But if the people of Islam are NOT peaceful, why would you want to liberate them or give them a public voice? Won't an Islamic democracy be an even bigger threat to us, or do you believe it won't be a true democracy and we're trying to set up a puppet state? Hmmm.

_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#53585 - 09/21/04 02:57 PM Re: Holy crap
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
There's a false distinction - "or do you believe it won't be a true democracy and we're trying to set up a puppet state? Hmmm." So, if an Arab state is unable to support a democratic form of government, the alternative is that it will be a US puppet state? Please! Let's look at the forms of government in that part of the world - feudal, oppressive monarchies supported by a police state apparatus, "strong man [dictatorship]" rule, supported by a police state apparatus, or anarchic warlordism, with each warlord aspiring to become a dictator or monarch supported by a modern police state apparatus.

So, PMB, if democracy fails, in an Arab country, you're going to blame us for trying, or accuse the US for setting up a "puppet" regime? Get real!!!
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#53586 - 09/21/04 03:06 PM Re: Holy crap
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
I grew up next door to a Jewish family. We were friendly. In the early 80s an Iranian family moved in next to the Jewish family. My little brother became good friends with their sons. Everybody got along swimmingly.

If the Iraqi gov't becomes a shiite dominated theocracy like the one in Iran, that would be bad. But if it becomes a representative gov't, where the majority rules but minority rights are preserved, if it has legitimacy in the eyes of the people and they are willing to tolerate differences among themselves, and the gov't works against the tyranny of the majority which seems so common over there, then that would be ideal. That kind of democracy would not be a threat to anybody.

I don't see how we could maintain a puppet state in that part of the world without having troops on the ground permanently.

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#53587 - 09/21/04 03:10 PM Re: Holy crap
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
2x6, Thanks for posting that petition. I completely support it, and I agree that the U.N., as it is now composed, could never hope to adopt it.

Let's get something straigh here. You and I (and probably everyone else who is brave/thick-skinned enough to read this thread) want the same thing:
  • We want murderous Muslims brought to justice.
  • We want peaceful Muslims to lift their voices and condemn the actions of the violent, bloodthirsty minority.
  • We want the culture of jihad to be eradicated from the Muslim world.
  • We want our lives to be secure and peaceful.
  • We want to do all this with the cooperation of as many countries as possible.
To accomplish these goals, we need to reach the moderate/modernist Muslims around the world, and not alienate them or lump them into the same category as the violent ones. That will do nothing to encourage them to speak up.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#53588 - 09/21/04 03:13 PM Re: Holy crap
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
I apologize for the puppet state reference. I exaggerated the hypothetical "setting it up only to have it fail" MO a bit too much to make a (bad) point.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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