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#53819 - 10/13/04 09:55 AM Re: OT: Politics
Zarak Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 1849
Loc: PA
I understand feeling the need to kick everyone's ass that is involved, as you put it, but where does it end is the question.

Is it possible to completely rid the world of terrorism? I think not, but even if you think it is, what will the cost be? The concern is that we finish what is going on in Iraq, and then what. Do we go from country to country one by one that we believe is involved in terrorism and attack them? There seems to be no exit plan here, the goal is to just hunt down the terrorists. Sounds like a great goal at face value, but let's dig a little deeper and figure out some more details before we get stuck fighting in a new place as soon as we finish up in the existing one.

This is why the concern comes up as well about is this war being fought the right way. I don't think we can just topple 40 different governments and put in a democracy to try to get rid of terror in those places.

It all comes down to what's the plan and where does it end. I don't think we've gotten that far, we are just in get the terrorist mode at all costs.

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#53820 - 10/13/04 01:31 PM Re: OT: Politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
pmbuko, I won't sugar coat it - your most recent posts were stupid and offensive. If you were just wanting to bump this thread... good job, but the US as a fascist state? Bush as the leader of a fascist mov't? Get real, we're not the bad guys.

If anything it's the "liberals" who will lead us to a totalitarian state. One where you can't fart without conducting an EIR, where you give all your earnings to the gov't for redistribution, where political correctness usurps the right to free speech.

The US is becoming more and more "liberal", not more and more "fascist".

The war on terrorists and the states that support them may last a long time or it may not. But if the American people are more willing to accept terrorist strikes at home than proactive military action abroad, then the war will be strictly defensive and will certainly be without end (at least an end that is acceptable for us).

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#53821 - 10/13/04 02:24 PM Re: OT: Politics
jorge016 Offline
local

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 247
Loc: Minnesota
IMO if the country is becoming more and more liberal it's in responsive to the conservative leadership in the White House. These guys wants less gov't - unless it's flag burning and gay marriage, then we need constitutional amendments. Conservatives are proponents of balanced budgets-oops what's the deficit at now. What do you need to balance a budget, in my household, less spending more income. Less spending isn't going to happen we're at war, yet Bush still pushes for the big tax cut. (To his credit he hasn't said "Read My Lips!) Cheney still collects a stipend from Halliburton-but if you question that you're labeled unpatriotic. War profiteering is IMO unpatriotic. Turbo you throw up Bush's argument of "nukular threat" , don't you think it will take a pretty catastrophic intelligence breakdown for a domestic nuclear threat? A dirty bomb is a scary thing, but radioactivity is not all that easy to contain and hide.

I know I'm capable of playing devils advocate and spouting the democratic party line, but you can't just spout Bushisms and Cheneyisms constantly and maintain credibility. These guys have been wrong in the past -way wrong. Bush is the scariest leader we've ever had. A fundamentalist fighting fundamentalists - not a good thing.


_________________________
M22's, VP150, QS4's, HK 630, HSU VTF3-MKII

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#53822 - 10/13/04 02:46 PM Re: OT: Politics
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
In reply to:

Bush is the scariest leader we've ever had



what scares me the most about him is his inability to admit or acknowledge a mistake. i dont know if its pride, or ignorance, or if he really thinks he is right ALL the time. but when you got approved information that plainly shows that you have made an error in judgement, and still dont fuss up to it, that to me is the most frightening.

and were not talking about 'putting the sour milk back in the fridge' kinda error.. we are talking BIG ones.. i think the president should show humility, vision, and acceptance of his own errors.. dubya has yet to do that. he even did it in last weeks debate.. when the lady asked, "name three mistakes your administration has made?" he just looked at her with the blank 'deer in the headlights' look, and couldnt name one.. SCARY!!!!!!!

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#53823 - 10/13/04 02:49 PM Re: OT: Politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16268
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
In reply to:

I sleep well right now with a President that is as pissed off as I am about these parasites out there trying to end my child's life because she lives in a country that doesn't want to oppress her and perhaps stone her for talking back to her husband.


You had me going until this point. I fundamentally disagree with you that this is the primary reason we were attacked -- and are being attacked.

So now that I've riled everyone up, I need to tell you that no, I don't believe there's a massive fascist conspiracy brewing in our country, but there are some pseudo-fascist tendencies. For example, whereas a fascist would say all the liberals should be rounded up and then take steps to make it happen, a pseudo-fascist jokes about it but wishes it were really true.

Yes, I picked extremes to illustrate my point, so I apologize if I ruffled your feathers. I DO love this country. Despite all I said, I still think it's the best place to live.

About where I'm coming from, I don't believe you can fight a "war on terror" effectively. I DO believe we have to take action against people/groups that mean to do us harm -- that they do is abundantly clear. Yes, military action is justified. I never said we shouldn't retaliate. I also believe that we need to do more than retaliate. We need to toss out the naive reasoning about WHY they hate us and get down to the root causes. This will take a lot of time, but I believe brains are ALWAYS better than braun in the long run. And isn't the long run really what this whole "war on terror" all about? Violence breeds violence. Iraq has made that abundantly clear.

In your eyes, I am a liberal simply because I disagree with the actions of the current administration. The thing is, I don't disagree with the goals of the administration, particularly in relation to terrorism. Of course it needs to be eliminated, in all its forms. What I disagree with is the methods of the administration.

Is that really so bad?
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#53824 - 10/13/04 03:56 PM Re: OT: Politics
jorge016 Offline
local

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 247
Loc: Minnesota
New interesting link:
http://citypages.com/databank/25/1245/article12550.asp
_________________________
M22's, VP150, QS4's, HK 630, HSU VTF3-MKII

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#53825 - 10/13/04 05:26 PM Re: OT: Politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16268
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Interesting link, Jorge. And by a Minnesotan, no less.

I've got one to share as well. This is a letter from a Wall Street Journal reporter to her friends -- and was never meant for public eyes, but one of its recipients felt it needed to be shared.

http://www.poynter.org/column.asp?id=45&aid=72659
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#53826 - 10/13/04 05:41 PM Re: OT: Politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16268
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
And another link:

Liberal! Liberal! Liberal!

I'll summarize: The article refutes most of the Republican campaign's attacks against Kerry.

And finally, the piece de resistance:

RNC-funded company Voters Outreach of America threw out THOUSANDS of democratic voter registrations.

More on this here.


Edited by pmbuko (10/13/04 05:49 PM)
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#53827 - 10/13/04 05:44 PM OT: Politics
TurboDog1 Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 342
Zarak - I would not expect the US to attack any other countries in the near future. Diplomacy is at work as we speak.....it will be a bumpy road, but it's already in the works in both Iran and N.Korea. Your response is going to be that we didn't use diplomacy in Iraq, so why should we expect to see it elsewhere. My response has been covered numerous times in this thread. We attacked Iraq because we could. They were in direct violation of the UN sanctions, thhey had been playing cat and mouse w/ the UN/US for over 10 years, they had a documented inventory of weapons following the first war, and they had a documented and undisputed intent to gather more weapons. The green flag was there and there was no reason to believe that Iraq was ever going to fully abide by all of the sanctions. In the climate we were in, the President "took the shot". I don't want to get back into the argument about whether it was a good decision, etc. I'm just saying that the Iraq situation is completely different than both Iran and N.Korea.

Jorge - Less Government and Liberal cannot be used in the same sentance while maintaining credibility. The Democratic party is headed down the path of Socialism, so I wouldn't expect to see any cuts in spending. If they have their way, they will gut defense budgets like they did under Clinton. However, I will not hold my breath that they will give that money back to the people in the form of decreased spending and tax cuts. That money will be spent on whatever social program they can come up with. I actually had to chuckle when I read that statement.

As for nuclear threat, perhaps your right. So, let's trade 10 million people for maybe 100,000 w/ some kind of dirty bomb or chemical agent. It doesn't matter. If you are a terrorist trying to hurt the US, what do you do?....you try to top yourself. I sit and listen to liberals talk and I hear their statements about 'responding' & 'handling' incidents. You hear Kerry talk about pre-9/11 attacks as nuisances. I have to sit here perplexed that we're so damn complacent in this situation. It's like no one can fathom that they could and probably will do it again.....and the next time they might be even more effective. We have NO reason to beleive this and it's dangerous to do so.

BigJohn - C'mon....like he's really going to answer that question on national TV. Anything he said in response to that would have been tattood on him for good. It was a loaded question w/ good intent, but unrealistic in that context. Like he said, history will judge his mistakes. It's not the role of a sitting President in a wartime environment to expose himself like that.

PM - I am well aware that my statement about treatment of women isn't the only reason we are in this mess. I know that our past actions in the region have a part in this mess. However, my intent was to draw a line and show the differences in ideology. Liberals want to blame the US for this whole mess because all of the past crap that we were involved with...(Iraq/Iran, Afghanistan, etc). However, perhaps because it's not PC to say it, you'll never hear them admit that part of this war is a clash between cultures....a clash between traditional/fundamentalist ISLAM and the American culture. Perhaps this is because it's hard for us to fathom committing these types of atrocities unless it's in response to direct actions. It's hard to fathom that part of this hatred is because we live in a free society that has appeal to those that are oppressed. To do so would be to admit that we are dealing with a group of extremist sociopathic nut-jobs that can't be negotiated with. To do so would be to admit that this is truly a war...one which will be with us for some time....one which our children will probably be fighting. In that context, I'll repeat my statement that I don't lose sleep over the thought of terrorists taking the eternal dirt nap at the hand of one of our soldiers or CIA agents.



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#53828 - 10/13/04 05:51 PM Re: OT: Politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
That's cool, pmb. I knew you were just trying to piss off all of us fascists.

bigjohn, I was watching CNN the other day (just to get myself all worked up). Lou Dobbs had 3 guests on and they were all discussing whether Bush should admit that the war in Iraq was a mistake or not. Not debating whether the war itself was a mistake - they want that to be assumed by the public I suppose - but whether Bush should say he made a mistake.
This is part of the "big lie" fallacy that we were talking about earlier. It is insulting to intelligent people and undermines the democratic process. To make good decisions voters need their news organizations to bring them facts and not opinions/propaganda. That the war was a mistake is highly, highly debateable - it certainly is not a fact. But if you guys keep repeating the mantra, "Bush needs to admit he made a mistake," then I guess we will all blindly assume that it was a mistake.

The real reason everybody wants Bush to say the war is a mistake, or at least convince voters that it was indeed a mistake, is to absolve Kerry of his absurd position that the war is a mistake but is still vital to our interests. I guess the first 1000 casualties under Bush were a mistake, but the next 1000 under Kerry would be justified?

CNN is a joke. They call the radical Islamic guys "conservatives"! HAHAHA They've been running "The Life and Times of John Kerry" every weekend. Their analysts use phrase like, "Kerry kicked his ass," in their commentary on the debates. What a sham!

jorge016, of course conservatives want smaller gov't. The founding fathers would likely all be appalled at this big nanny-style gov't we have.
Criticizing the President and undermining the nat'l war effort for personal political gain, or for furthering the interests of your political party and/or its agenda, is definitely un-patriotic. It doesn't matter how many Supreme Court justices will be retiring in the next four years. Kerry supports the war (I think ) and that should have been the end of it.
Income vs spending: economics is never cut and dried, but it seems to me that the best way to increase revenue is to grow the economy. You don't have to have a balanced budget every year, so long as when the economy is booming you settle those accounts. The problem is all the pork, waste and freebies the gov't increases spending on in times of wealth.
High tax rates and lavish social programs (like what we see in Germany now) stifle economic growth and, in the long run, decrease gov't revenues. Our recent recession was very short and the economy is growing again. In Germany they currently have negative growth.
BTW, rich folks in Germany - like the Schumacher bros. - take their incomes and leave. Both of those guys are now citizens of Monaco, I think. Kerry's European supporters apparently want him to drastically increase our top tax rates in order to stop the flow of individuals and businesses who currently seek the relative tax shelter of the US. Free money for us if you ask me.
Anybody heard of the current proposal in the UN, which Kofi Annan supports, that would put a global tax on our paychecks? That would be cool, eh?

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