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#53889 - 10/17/04 01:45 AM Re: OT: Politics
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
_________________________
"A nation cannot prosper long, when it favors only the prosperous." -President Barack Obama

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#53890 - 10/17/04 04:00 AM Re: OT: Politics
AdamP88 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 639
Loc: Omaha, NE
BigWill, registering is free, and they send you nothing. Besides, you really should read that article - it's far too long to simply summarize.

And I myself am sickened by the constant accusations of being un-American or anti-American if one strongly disagrees with Bush and his policies and/or actions. Those accusations themselves are un-American.

Peter used this quote before, but here's a quote from a past president that I think hit's the nail right on the head:

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else." - Theodore Roosevelt

Our President clearly is not interested in full disclosure of the facts regarding his actions, and in his speeches and the way his administration presents itself there is a strong running theme that criticism of the President is bad for the country, regardless of his actions. This is the attitude I find most anti-American.

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#53891 - 10/17/04 09:07 AM Re: OT: Politics
TurboDog1 Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 342
Adam,

I agree w/ what you are saying. Our whole system is based upon that freedom to criticize our government...to protest...to say what you want (within reason) without fear of reprisal from the government that is being criticized.

My problem is with what Kerry is doing in particular. He is a sitting US Senator publically bashing the President's policies when his own positions are often contrary to what he's saying. At other times, he is criticising policies and offering alternative soltutions which are not significantly different from those of Bush. He criticises the way that Bush executed the war when he is well aware that his litmus test for action was never going to be satisfied. He has the nerve to call the sitting president a liar during wartime when he knows very well that the President acted on what he considered to be good information at the time. He uses inflammatory words like "catastrophic failure" during wartime when he is fully aware that the war is being executed with an unheard of precision and effectiveness with a well below-average loss of life.

Yes, I'm fully aware that many do not agree with this war. The problem is that the world is listening to Kerry's remarks and he is acting without regard for the effect on our troops and our position in the world. Rather than support the war as Kerry claims to and simply clarify his differences in positions, he prances around and fires off inflammatory and devisive statements aimed solely at damaging the President's standing both here and abroad. Rather than focus on why John Kerry should be Commander and Chief, he's focusing on amplifying a tough time that we are having over there...on intensifying the fears that people have....on the lack of will that is rampant in society today. He is an opportunist in the purest sense and he continues to display that there is no bounds to what he'll do to obtain power. This is a time of war and he is a US Senator that shows no constraint and consideration with his remarks about our President, knowing full well that they have a dramatic effect on the morale of our troops and our standing in the world. I'll let you decide if that's un-American. I'll just say that it's pathetic and reckless.

Now....just to stir things up....What do you guys think about the assertion that Michael Moore's actions are un-American? Many are probably going to jump to his defense under freedom of speech. I personally look at the stories about his movie being distributed by Hesbolah sponsored media outlets as a source of disgust. I think about his movie being shown across the Middle East and it pi$$es me off to no end. You will claim it's free speech, but I'll call it as I see it.....it's hatred of America. Knowing full well that his movie contained a huge amounts of distortions and deceptions, he still went ahead with his media blitzkrieg, just because it served his political goal. His aim was purely to enflame both the US public and those abroad, no matter how much truth there was to his positions. Boiled down, he sought to damage the standing of the President and the US during a time of war using deception, just because he didn't agree with it. I guess I'm just one of those narrow minded "STUPID AMERICANS", but I don't think that we can narrow the definition of un-American far enough to exclude his fat a$$.

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#53892 - 10/17/04 01:57 PM Re: OT: Politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
Of course, Adam, you are absolutely right. I can feel the patriotism exuding from every word you, Kerry and Michael Moore use when criticizing the President.

You can twist the First Amendment to support anti-American activities as you see fit, but I'll call a spade a spade. Kerry has undermined the war effort for his own political gain by coming up with this insanely stupid position that the war is a mistake - but he's in favor of it - and that is just plain wrong. The vast media conspiracy between its liberal members and the intellectual elites to hoodwink the people in order to secure this election for their chosen candidate is un-American and un-democratic.

I don't mind someone exercising their rights and conscience, but there is a requirement that you be CORRECT or history will judge you very badly (as will the rest of us today). How can you all be so certain that you are correct in opposing this war? Your crystal ball must be working better than mine. I see two great successes in Afghanistan and Iraq. I kid you not, I teared up at the sight of Afghanis walking many miles to vote. America did that.

Those who voted against Lincoln in 1864 were wrong. McClellan was wrong. The hateful media was wrong. Luckily, the people who were right won the day in 1864; the slaves were freed, the nation preserved, and Lincoln's legacy as one of the greatest leaders in US history secured.

For one to oppose the efforts of our countrymen as they are in harms way, one must absolutely be right about the war being a mistake. If you're not right... what would you call it?

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#53893 - 10/17/04 02:34 PM Re: OT: Politics
lomb7 Offline
devotee

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 425
Loc: San Diego
I always find humor in that when there is a Rep. in the White House there is the evil liberial media out to get him. When a Dem. is in the white house it is a vast right wing with the religious faction out to get them. All in all I feel that when an election comes around both groups love feeding and breeding on the fears that "could" happen.

I will not say how I am voting but I am VERY tired of the fear card being played. Look back on history and how fear was used to manipulate votes. USSR, Iran, North Korea, Iraq, the "axis of evil" and now terror.

Another question...If we are at war with terrorism yet we do not have a clear understanding of who is in the ranks of that group, how do you know who the enemy really is and when do you know if you've won the war or when it is over? Kind of like the "war on drugs". How are we doing in that war that's been going on for 20+ years. I just read that we are doubling our forces in Columbia so it must be going great....

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#53894 - 10/17/04 03:31 PM Re: OT: Politics
AdamP88 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 639
Loc: Omaha, NE
Show me where I said that I agree with everything Kerry and/or Michael Moore have to say, BigWill. I don't think you'll be able to find it.

In reply to:

How can you all be so certain that you are correct in opposing this war?




And how can you be so certain that you are correct in supporting this war? For the record, I think all of us supported going into Afghanistan, so that point is moot. Where I see the great blunder is in Iraq. It's almost enough to make one cry when their are daily car bombings, killings and kidnappings. Large parts of the country are simply not under our control at all. Many of them in Shiite areas, the parts of the country that were supposed to be welcoming us with open arms after we liberated them. Parts of Baghdad aren't even safe. Hell, even the Green Zone, our supposed safe haven over there, isn't safe. There have been reports from entrenched reporters that say that the educated Iraqis, including those who opposed Saddam, estimate that if free elections were to be held today and Saddam was on the ticket, Saddam would win. They would rather choose relative security under a dictator than our brand of freedom. That's enough to make one cry. And the biggest reason for that, I'd wager, is that Iraq has become a breeding ground for terrorism, not a safe haven from it.

And I know you're set on the Civil War/War on Terrorism analogy now, but I really don't find it to be that appropriate.



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#53895 - 10/17/04 03:57 PM Re: OT: Politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
"And how can you be so certain that you are correct in supporting this war?"

Supporting one's country in a war seems like the "default" position to take. Given evidence that the war is a mistake, I would support bringing the troops home. I'm not in favor of undermining the war effort for the political gain of one candidate or party.

When there are elections in Iraq and the bad guys are defeated, regardless of who our President is, the question of whether it all was worth it will be answered.

Lomb7, the Democrats are equally guilty of playing upon voters' fears; fear over Social Security privatization, the draft, Roe v Wade, Armageddon, etc...

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#53896 - 10/17/04 07:02 PM Re: OT: Politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16277
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
In reply to:

You can twist the First Amendment to support anti-American activities as you see fit, but I'll call a spade a spade.


The beatiful thing about this country is that one person's idea of what "American" is does not define the word. People who protest the war aren't being anti-American. That label gets slapped around so much it's practically meaningless, anyway. When I protest the war, or say I think the President made a mistake in taking that course of action, it's because I feel in my AMERICAN GUT that it is wrong.

I didn't like the idea before we went in. I didn't like it when we took over Baghdad. I still didn't like it after we had Saddam. And now more than ever, I don't like the daily violence occuring because we are there.

I am an American goddamnit, with strong emotions about what is wrong and right for the country. I may be WRONG, but that doesn't make me un-American. You insult me, and everyone else who disagrees with Bush decisions, to suggest otherwise.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#53897 - 10/17/04 07:43 PM Re: OT: Politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
I went back and read my posts, but could not find anything to suggest I said you are un-American.

I did say that if you are protesting against your own side in a war, then you had better be correct. I also said that I felt Kerry and his crew are using the war to attack the President - and thus undermining the war effort - for their own political gain. You, unlike Kerry, have the integrity of being consistently opposed to the war.

IMO, if the Democrats had wanted to run an anti-war attack campaign, then they should have chosen an anti-war candidate. I'm sorry if your feelings got hurt. Hopefully we'll both live to be decrepit old men, and see what the history books will say.

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#53898 - 10/17/04 08:52 PM Re: OT: Politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16277
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
It's not me I'm worried about so much. It's my kid(s). Quite frankly, what GWB has done -- not that he started the war, but that he doens't know how to win the peace -- has done more harm than good, in my opinion. And I also think he doesn't really care enough to try to fix it. The NY Times article I last linked to talks about WHY he doesn't care enough to fix it.

He trusts in his faith to lead him through, but you also need to care about facts, which he does not. He is putting the entire country at risk with only his faith to see us through. Doesn't that scare you?
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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