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#53269 - 09/04/04 11:31 PM Re: Just because I'm a pacifist
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
DK ... Yes, The Russians whacked Chechnya hard... they attacked without warning against a people , the Russians were wrong there, and acted as terrorists themselves.... they just learned a lesson on REAL terrorists... those who want to destroy anyone who disagrees with them... not co-exist.

Putin may finally "get" it...
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#53270 - 09/04/04 11:39 PM Re: Just because I'm a pacifist
donaldekelly Offline
local

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 274
Loc: Washington, DC
Some people think George W is a terrorist. I think they have some points but certianly there are differences. But, still - "shock and awe" was designed to strike terror in the hearts of the Iraqi soldiers - and for what purpose? Many of us believe it is simply for oil (i.e. continued world domination).

Again, just asking questions. I don't know enough to state much definitively - except that M3s are more accurate than Paradigm Titans.
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M22s, QS4s, M2 center, Hsu stf-1.

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#53271 - 09/05/04 12:26 AM Re: Just because I'm a warmonger
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
Sometimes one has to look at results... "shock and awe" did precisely that. Had We wanted to, Iraq could be a parking lot today. Some may see that as arrogance, but it IS true. As for world domination in oil... If that was our goal, you would know it. Kuwait could be a territory, just as Guam is... we liberated, held out the hand of friendship, and hoped it was accepted.
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#53272 - 09/05/04 12:40 AM Re: Just because I'm a pacifist
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Sorry, Donald, but what the Chechins want is a separate Islamic Fundamentalist state. They've blown up apartment buildings in Moscow, brought down airliners and now have killed about 200 children.

The French, who have done everything possible to accommodate their Islamic guests drew the line at headscarves in public schools. They also outlawed wearing crosses outside students' clothing and Jews from wearing yarmulkas. Interesting that neither Christians nor Jews took any Frenchmen hostage and threatened to behead them. You are aware of the 2 French journalists being held in Iraq.

Why would you think the Israelis have come down "hard" on the Palestinians? There are 1 million Palestinian Israeli citizens, fully franchised, full legal protection. What happens if a Jewish person wanders into a Palestinian town? Killed. How about the fate of the ancient and once populous Jewish communities of Damascus and Baghdad? The Copts of Egypt are appealing to the world to protect them from the Islamic fundamentalists. The Christians of Iraq are fleeing the Sunis and Shias to the Kurdish north.

How can you equate the acts of the Jihadists who strap explosive vests to their children and celebrate blowing up people in Pizza parlors, or busses, or check points, with Israeli police action to track down and kill the leaders who dispatch these murderers?

Come down hard? You mean like when the Iraqis hanged 12 Jews in central Baghdad from lamposts in 1969 precipitating the exodus of the Jewish community? That kind of hard? Maybe you mean the battle of Jenin when the PLA armed by the Israelis as part of the Oslo accords fought the Israeli army which entered the town to find those responsible for a suicide bombing which killed 10 people and then spread the great lie of an Israeli massacre?

Yes, the French should certainly give in to the Jihadists. It's clear that no dispute is too small to justify murder, so give in! Same for the Israelis - they should give in to the Jihadists, permit millions of Muslims to move into Israel and destroy Israel. Same for the Russians. Those fools, thinking they can keep a pluralistic society together when Jihadists want a Sharia state in Chechnya. Every non Muslim would have to leave or suffer the same fate as the 200 infants and children in Besla.

Yes, I suppose you're right - we should just give in to the Islamo-fascists Jihadists.
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#53273 - 09/05/04 12:54 AM Re: Just because I'm a realist
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
2x6 ... You have courage. In 1942, a lot of Americans who, before that, would have taunted each other also understood there was a threat that wanted us destroyed...

History has a way of repeating... I just hope that, in ten years, we are debating a flat tax... and not agreeing that this threat to kill every American by Muslim extremist terrorists must be stopped.

Iraq, under Hussein, was part of that threat... as is Iran still.

In 1941, a poll of Americans believed (by a 2 to 1 margin) that the Japanese meant us no harm...
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#53274 - 09/05/04 10:00 AM Re: Just because I'm a realist
donaldekelly Offline
local

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 274
Loc: Washington, DC
Thanks for the response - I will need to look at some things before responding intelligently. In the mean time I will respond half intelligently and hope you all can put up with it.

This is what I hoped would happen - getting exposed to some of the arguments I have not heard (I attend a peace church and work with all democrats who are to the left of Kerry for the most part) so I can consider them.

So, our purpose was to liberate the Iraqis? Or to deal with the imminent threat (or whatever word was used - big and present danger)? I have a hard time believing that because there was no evidence on the ground and no willingness to wait for proof, and I thought no reason not to wait - we were already in there inspecting most everything. (Again - just my take on it based on little research-trying to promote discussion not fierce argument). I am not trying to defend Kerry in this statement.

What the Israelis did in Jenin seemed to be roundly condemned by almost every country as way over the top. I would take advantage of every military defense I could too if I was in charge of Israel - but why keep settling in the palestinian territory and stoking the fires of terrorism? Jewish fundamentalism, from what I have heard and read. "God gave this land to us."

I am not advocating giving in to all terrorist demands - but some sensitivity can help you avoid some problems. You are right though, with certain Muslim fundamentalists the problems would be there anyway. Just not as bad I think.

I don't see the inherent problem with giving the chechnyans a separate Muslim state. Probably due to my own ignorance again. Sure - that might not turn them into peaceful neighbors, but some accomodation makes international relations work better. Some accomodation does not.

_________________________
M22s, QS4s, M2 center, Hsu stf-1.

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#53275 - 09/05/04 10:41 AM Re: Just because I'm a realist
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
Donald, It is also very easy (note, I am not saying this about any one person) to say "what about?" then fill in the blanks... For example, "what about the Sudan?" ... and use that to discredit the efforts in Iraq.

I hope everyone agrees that the "Arab Militia" in the Sudan is nothing more than government backed terrorists. These guys were recently sold new weapons to use against the Black African population. These weapons include Attack Helicopters and Fighter Jets. The source ? The Russians.

Twelve Mig-29's are now in possession of these terrorists... Thanks to Pres. Putin.

And the thanks he gets ? Hundreds of people (including chilren) dead in a Russian school, killed by terrorists. Mr. Putin will be taking a MUCH different view of terror now... And I am sure President Bush will welcome President Putin with open arms...

And we ARE working with those in Africa to try to solve the problem, though it would have been easier without the addition of Migs and Hind Helicopters (watch Rambo III ... THOSE gunships against civilians)...

As for what President Bush (and 47 other countries with us) said ; "Do we wait until there IS an imminent threat?" ... And as far as finding WMD's, we did wait for 4 months after the final resolution from the UN (which again gave Iraq 30 days) to start the war. Even if Senator Kerry, heck, even if Ralph Nader was currently president, and some right wing guy was pounding on President Nader for not finding vast stockpiles of WMD's, I would point out that hiding (like... under 50 feet of sand) the WMD's would be easy.

We also DID find a lot of evidence, including a 155 mm shell, of chemical weapons.

President Bush was quite clear in his words, On March 1, 2003, Iraq could not "hit us" directly. But he was working on it. Should we have waited until he HAD missiles that could reach, say, England ? Or the US ?

In 1999, four years before the Iraq war, the United Nations reported that Iraq could produce 25,000 liters of Anthrax. It was then incumbent upon Iraq to prove they were destroyed, not for us to continue to prove the existence. A cubic meter holds 1000 liters. Enough Anthrax to wipe out hundreds of millions of people would fit into 3 meter, or 10 foot cube. With four months, how hard would it be to hide that in an area the size of California?

There was no doubt that Iraq under Hussein control would someday have WMD's and delivery systems that could hit first Europe, then the US and Canada.

And Hussein control also means his sons... they were at least as twisted as "Dad" ... nice family business, eh ?

Remember the flood of Anthrax laced letters... in 2002 and early 2003 ? They are no longer occuring. Perhaps that is coincidence...

But back to seeking evidence... It was Hussein's job to prove the WMD's were destroyed. It was not our job to prove they were there. THAT was the UN's position in every resolution passed.

The stated goals in Iraq were:

1. To ensure no WMD's could ever be used by Hussein again.
2. To eliminate the terrorist training camps located there.
3. Freeing the Iraqi people was a plus, and a good thing to do, yes.

This war against terror was also predicted, By President Bush, to last ten years or more. Iraq was just another step along the way.

I also love my church. We send food, clothing, and prayers to the people of Iraq. And the Sudan, Afganistan... and other areas of the world. I hope your faith will allow you to understand there is evil in the world, and sometimes we have to fight to stop it.





Edited by craigsub (09/05/04 11:04 AM)
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#53276 - 09/05/04 11:51 AM Re: Just because I'm a realist
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
I have been reading about the Russian situation, and President Putin's response to date. He is so far showing remarkable courage, and a determination to not let this happen again.


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#53277 - 09/05/04 01:58 PM Re: Just because I'm a realist
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
The Chechen terrorists seem to have a political goal that may or may not be noble, but their tactics clearly indicate that they are terrorists and not patriots, freedom fighters, or whatever. Killing all those kids, the civilians on the airliners, etc... is just the wrong way to go about achieving any goal.
The Israelis have shown many times over that they would like to live in peace with their Arab neighbors, but that doesn't seem to true of the Arabs. The hatred and sub-human loathing of the Jews by the Arabs is unfathomable to me and will always be an insurmountable obstacle to any peaceful resolution. I think it is a waste of time for the Israelis to negotiate with such enemies. They can put up that wall, defend themselves and launch retaliatory attacks forever - or get the hell out of there - but those seem to be the only options.
Personally, I don't see the allure of living in the Middle East, but whatever... Maybe the Israelis should all pack up and move to Baja, build replicas of the holy sites, and turn it into a beautiful country. Mexico ain't doing much with all that prime real estate.

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#53278 - 09/05/04 10:04 PM Re: Just because I'm a realist
TurboDog1 Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 342
"I have a hard time believing that because there was no evidence on the ground and no willingness to wait for proof, and I thought no reason not to wait - we were already in there inspecting most everything."

Donald - I'm going to be brief, since Craig addressed your post in length. I just wanted to request that you do some research into the 10 year period during which UNSCUM was supposed to be doing it's inspections. If you look at all of the UN resolutions during that time, they were consistently issuing resolution after resolution demanding that Hussein comply with their resolutions and provide unfettered access to all sites civilian/industrial/military/presidential. It's when you look back at the details that you find the root of the problem. Hussein was completely controlling where and when UNSCUM was allowed to search. When he wasn't doing this, he was periodically kicking them out of the country. So, the reality is that the UN inspectors were being lead back and forth across Iraq looking only at what Hussein would allow them to view.

Now, once you come to understand this, you have to then reexamine the fact that the UN clearly determined that Iraq had WMDs in many forms at the end of the first gulf war. Now, it's 10 years later and everyone is saying that there are no WMDs. For this to be true, either of two things would have had to happened:

1. Hussein destoyed them
2. Hussein hid them

Which one seems more logical? If he destroyed them, would he not have provided proof to the UN to avoid the second war? That's all he would have needed to do to get the UN off his back. Therefore, if you rule out the first option, what's left is that they are hidden somewhere, either somewhere in the sand or in a neighboring country like Syria.

The problem with everyone is that they get selective memory about the fact that there was no doubt that Hussein had them. Hell, he used them on the kurds. No one really wants to dig into the above argument because it would force them to agree with us evil conservative in our assessment that they are simply hidden somewhere.

Now...maybe that wasn't so brief. Then again, it was shorter than some of my other posts.

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