Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Tubes?

What is the difference between using tube amps or a solid state amp like a Denon or Yamaha?
These "audiophiles" I speak too seem to think that anything but seperates and tube amps is "low end garbage".
Am I missing something or are they just caught up in their own world of snobery?

Sounds like you've made up your mind that tube amps are "snobery."

How's the remedial spelling class coming along?

I was actually very busy while typing, I am sorry for the error, I hope it didnt ruin your day. I have not made any decision on tubes at all, I was simply very curious on the differences. I am new to home theater and was trying to find out about a subject I know nothing about.

thekid, A properly set up tube system will be extremely enjoyable, and is not the sign of snobbery, but rather the sign of someone who likes the finer things in life. One of my all time favorite systems was a Tube pre-power through Klipschorns... expensive ? yes... close to live music ? ... absolutely.

Does this mean Denon, Yamaha, etc... are "bad" ? ... No... just different price points and performance levels.

Thanks Craigsub,
I re-read my original question and I was trying to get to the point, but in fact, I think I completely missed it. I just didnt know the difference in sound quality. I never thought someone who owned tubes was a snob, just the people who I had met. Thanks for not attacking me

kid-

you have to forgive 2x6 a bit.. he can get touchy when he feels his beloved 'tube' infactuation being threatened or questioned. there is no question, he is the 'tube' authority around here, with haole-boy a close second.. so, when it comes to questions on tubes, those are the guys to ask..

now, as far as the difference in sound.. there is one.. those that love the tube sound, swear by it.. those that dont.. dont.. its as simple as that.. you would probably need to hear the two different systems to be able to make your own judgement. and there is no doubt, tube stuff is WAY more expensive..

so, factor in what you want, with what you can spend, and build from there.. but, i would be willing to say that you would not be unhappy with a good denon, yamaha, onkyo, HK, marantz, pioneer elite, sony ES, integra, or any other countless brands of solid state receivers..

good luck, and happy building of your HT system.

bigjohn

Call me an idiot, but I don't think the difference in sound is "night and day". A good HT receiver will be great for music and far more versatile for you in the future.

bigjohn,
Thanks for the response. I havent heard them, but would really like too. I look forward to hearing all types of speakers and amps

From Sound and Vision July/August print edition.

"Okay, Internet, get this: tubes are a waste of money! They're hot, they're expensive, and one prominent manufacturer of tube equipment told me some years ago that the tubes themselves have something like an 80% failure rate. AND THEY DON'T OFFER BETTER SOUND. They have higher inherent distortion, are often obviously noisier, and offer much lower peak power ratings than solid-state equiment. They certainly don't last as long. So why put up with the bother? Sound & Vision."

comments?

I think a lot of people will disagree with that quote. I personally like the way tubes sound as well as vinyl. Yes, you can hear a difference. I’m not saying that it’s a life changing difference, but subtle. Now, I cannot hear subtle changes with silicon based amps and I don’t think one should (that is where good speakers like Axiom come into play).
I would consider tubes to be more of a personal preference than anything else.
Being a HT enthusiast, I also appreciate good silicon.

My $.02

Fordprefect ... Not trying to pick on you here, but Sound and Vision remarking on high end audio is about the same as McDonald's commenting on fine dining...

Ouch! I dont recall Sound & Vision doing reviews of gawdy shelf systems, which would put them more in line with your analogy. Surely you're exaggerating just a smidge.

If not, are you suggesting that people defenestrate their entire collection of S&V mags?

Hi FordPrefect, the kid, and all,

If we are speaking in a technical sense, tube amplifiers tend not to be "linear" as solid-state designs; that is, the frequency response isn't as smooth, so certain octaves in the musical spectrum may get slightly emphasized or (more commonly) slightly depressed, especially in the midrange. Virtually every solid-state amplifier these days delivers ruler-flat frequency response, especially if you switch out the tone control circuits which may introduce audible blips.

It is partly these non-smooth variations over the musical spectrum found in many tube amplifiers that account for the differences in sound quality heard in comparison tests. However, if a tube amplifier is properly engineered to yield linear response, these differences evaporate. I speak with some authority here, having done A/B double-blind tests using Macintosh amplifers along with solid-state amps. One of the other panel members was Ian G. Masters, whose quote from a current issue of Sound&Vision is cited by FordPrefect.

One enlightening demo illustrating the above was done by Bob Carver, who claimed he could make a solid-state amplifier that sounded exactly like tube amps. He did that, and to achieve it he altered the frequency response of the solid-state amplifier, adding a midrange slump in response (that adds a subjective sense of "depth" to recordings) followed by a lift in the upper octaves, to add a sense of "air" and "bloom" to the instruments, the latter both qualities adored by anti-science types like Harry Pearson, founder of The Absolute Sound.

There are also interactions of tube amplifier output stages with a speaker's impedance curve that may introduce quite audible errors in frequency response, and those will be peculiar to a given set of speakers, and will be different with another pair of speakers. Solid-state amplifiers have essentially 0 ohms output impedance, so these variations away from accurate response do not occur.

In short, tube amplifiers are inaccurate, non-linear devices for the most part. It may be fun for hobbyists, and those glowing orange filaments sure are purty, but accurate sound is not a virtue of tube technology.

Regards,

Hmmmmmmm... well... when I logged onto their site, the Bose Wave Radio was archived in a review... but... how about we give them Wendy's Status...

Oh, gee, I didn't know the scientists have reached a consensus that tube amps were [censored]. Not to put too fine a point on it, but the arrogance of it! Personally, I follow the reviews of Steve Rochlin at Enjoy the Music, and Pearson at TAS, and find that my experiences match theirs in many ways, including their appreciation of both some tube amps and Axiom speakers. But hey, what do they know!

2x6, well of course you follow the reviews of Rochlin and Pearson. Their opinions are more in line with your current views.

Please don't take every criticism of tubes as a personal attack. Why should the opinions and experience of others detract from your enjoyment of tubes? Nobody here has said tubes are [censored].

i will say it.. tubes are [censored]

but what do i know?? not much..

i agree with peter on this 2x6.. everytime this tube issue comes up, you get your panties all bunched up in a wad.. good lord man, its just a box with some pretty glowing tubes.. you dont need to get bent all outta shape.. PLUS, the bottom line is.. you dig what you got, and you love the way it sounds.. so there, you da man, and those that have the same enlightenment as you, are also blessed.

to be honest, i would LOVE to hear a good tube amp, just so i can make my own decision. i respect your knowledge on the subject, and i know you wouldnt be defending your stance so strongly if it didnt sound very good.. but, i am at a loss. i dont know anyone with a tube, nor do i know where to search.. but my curiosity grows with every one of these tube threads!!

bigjohn

Thanks Allan, thats the kind of comments I was looking for, I was sure there had to be some science behind all that emotion.

Not that there's anything wrong with emotion, I can understand the feelings that some of you have towards tubes. They look incredible and I hope that sometime I can hear one.

As for Sound and Vision, well I like it. I like the equipment they cover and I like the layout of the magazine. Feelings shouldn't enter into this at all, we all enjoy audio and it would be a very boring world if we all marched to the same drumbeat.

FordPrefect, I really was just teasing... S&V DOES do great measurements, and their amp tests are great... I do wish their speakers tests were more thorough...

Kid, a correctly-designed tube amp can be just as transparent(flat frequency response, inaudibly low noise and distortion)as a well-engineered solid state design and neither will audibly affect the sound, except to amplify it of course. One of the illustrations of this was the blind tests years ago by Stereo Review, one result of which was that a $6,000 pair of tube amps was able to match the performance of a $200 solid-state stereo receiver and couldn't be distinguished from it. However as Alan has pointed out, some tube designs have problems with uneven frequency response due to their high output impedance following the swings in speaker impedance. Another problem that can arise in the low power tube SET amps(e.g.5-10 watts)which can sound clean at moderate levels is the second harmonic distortion which they can exhibit when forced to high output levels. Sometimes tube enthusiasts attempt to use attractive terms such as "warm" or even "musical" if these problems arise, but an amp isn't supposed to be a musical instrument.

Question: why then do musicians still prefer tube gear (live and recording) over solid state? Personally I have both (Threshold SS and Quicksilver tube amps)and enjoy both. Oh Yes the tubes are awefully purty to look at.

Cheers,

Hi Tracerec

I can relate. I have 1 tube amp, an ASL MG S1 15DT 5 wpc SET integrated, and 7 solid state amps:

Anthem PVA 5 (5 channel)
Yamaha M80 2 channel
Onkyo M-504 2 channel
Kenwood KA9100 2 channel
3 Onkyo M282 2 channel amps.

I think the big Yamaha is the most musical, the big Onk M504, next most musical, the Anthem is excellent, and the Onkyo 282s are very nice. For kicking back and listening in 2 channel, my personal favorite is the tubie. The others are also very nice.

2x6, get your head out of your ass. Your somewhat "remedial", petty tagline is enough of an indication of your negative leanings. Attacking someone for an honest question because you're so into your own little world of tube amps that anyone who questions it makes you feel like you have to put them down on something so small as their gramar on a leisure board is beyond stupid.

I meant to say that the Yamaha is the most musical of my solid state amps.

Ksimple, I didn't think the kid's question was "honest." I could be wrong. As to your post, well, why don't you have another drink and kick your dog, you'll feel better.

ksimple,

Why don't you take your own advice and tone it down a smidge, hmmm?

pmb, I don't think you've kept up with this conversation. I thought I responded to Ksimple's suggestion that my head is up my ass and that I'm stupid with a fair amount of grace. If you don't, well, that's your problem.

did you even read my post?

Dude, 2x6, turn off the auto-attack for a second and you'd realize that Peter was talking to ksimple, not you.

That said, I must admit to being interested in trying out a tube system. Sure in the purest terms an amp shouldn't be an instrument, but if the effect it imparts on the music is pleasing to your ears, then whether or not it distorts the signal or has dips or whatever shouldn't be much of a factor then. Yes there are some inherent drawbacks, but if it suits you, then it suits you.

I feel a lack of love in here. I'm not even going to bring up my cable question...

2x6:

It's perfectly fine for you to enjoy tube gear. It's kind of analogous to appreciating vintage automobiles. I love the old 1950s cars (a friend has a refurbished '57 Chevy Bel Aire) that I rode around in as a teenager. But I wouldn't suggest that those clumsy old boats drive and handle anything like a modern Honda or BMW.

It's nostalgia, affection for older technology, so enjoy it as such. But suggesting that tube gear has mystical or magical properties is ridiculous. The comment about shopping for a tube-driven computer is apt. One of my early jobs in broadcasting was at local TV station that owned and still used one of the first professional Ampex black&white videotape recorders. It was an all-tube unit that occupied and entire room--racks and racks of tube gear. It generated so much heat that it had its own dedicated air-conditioning system.

If you follow the tube analogy through, that vacuum-tube design somehow confers superior performance through unexplained and mysterious circuitry or some other magical properties, then it would only make sense for us to use tube-based VCRs to achieve more realistic image reproduction, wouldn't it?

Regards,

PMB wrote:

In reply to:

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ksimple,

Why don't you take your own advice and tone it down a smidge, hmmm?

.

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I thought you were talking about me. My mistake! It's due to the view ... it was somewhat limited because my head was stuck up my ... you know, like he said.

"The view" ...ROFLMAO. Good recovery.

Someone came to the forum to ask a question and what happens? Does 2x6 ask for an explanation? Does he add anything intelligent? No, he comes back with a dull, insinuating, personal attack. Did the original poster say that 2x6 was a snob? No. His one liner "How's that remedial spelling class coming along?" is juvenile, ridiculous, laughable. I, personally, don't have a taste for tube amps either. So, what's next - is 2x6 going to poke fun at my screen name, or look for errors in my gramar. You were out of line and I called you on it. Then you tell me to kick my dog and drink. Come on...

We're talking about STEREO EQUIPMENT 2x6. How you can be so insecure with yourself as to be personally offended to the point of mocking others who don't share your 'passion' of a certain type of equipment is beyond me. Your opinion is fine, and you have your right to it, but attacking others' intelligence is not cool.


As for my "head up..." comment, I would like to apologize. It was also out of line. I don't understand why 2x6 is allowed these outburst, when others are immediately shunned.

Hey! My "cold pizza" post got deleted....what gives!

I liked that one. Yes, it was in response to ProTech's arguments, but I thought we were having a civil conversation up to a certain point. In any event, I thought that the comments made in that post were relevant to understanding 2X6's point of view....

Oh well, I guess that's the price we pay for trolls....

2X6 - I'll be there for you next time.

Do you hear yourself Ksimple? You're insulting me because you're worried I'm going to insult you? I'm not. Well, I probably won't, maybe a little, but anyway, you don't have to stop insulting me. It's a free country. Knock yourself out fella!

A lot of posts got deleted. I noticed this right after I pointed out that Pro Tech shares a lot of qualities with TechPro who fouled this forum a few weeks ago. I suspect it had to do with a particularly nasty post (by Pro Tech) directed at the moderator of this board which I read a few minutes before all the posts were deleted.

Don't feed the trolls!

Mark

I know! I particularly regret my defense of Amie as "our beautiful lady of the northern lakes ..." was deleted and Capn Pickard's cold pizza post, priceless and gone ...

While I wasn't trying to feed the trolls, you can only sniff one otu by engaging him at some level. We were engaged at a reasonable level to start, and the banter between us was initially civil. I suspect that Amie (justifiably) deleted all of his posts and replies to his posts...

I'm mostly kidding about having my posts deleted. My comments wouldn't mean very much without Protech's initial posts anyway. I was just bitching for the sake of bitching.

Sorry, i wasn't implying you were feeding the trolls...it was more of a general statement not directed at anybody in particular.

IMO, however, most trolls want attention, and the thing that will bother one the most is to be totally ignored.

Anyway, let's get back to discussing why 2X6 is wrong for liking tubes... that was a good time before the party got ruined.

(it's been a fun day on the boards)

I liked Alan's analogy of tube amps being like a vintage car. Just because a '68 Mustang Fastback doesn't handle, or have amenities like a 2004 Mustang SVT Cobra doesn't mean that one's driving experience cannot be better in the older vehicle.

My take on all of this is that tube amps introduce some colorations to the music that some people may find preferable. I am curious enough to want to listen to one some day if I can. And I think we'd all be better off if people didn't take every question about tubes as a personal attack!

Mark

LOL!!

Hey, I lost some darn witty stuff in there too!

I think there should be beer and tubes in every thread. I think the heat of the tubes would be bad for my beer, however.

Yes, the Capn has been in fine form of late. I thoroughly enjoyed your mediation analogies. Adrien, is it slow in litigation land or something? Don't tell me you can't find anybody worth suing. (kind of reminds me of that old movie line about "he needed killin' anyway").

Ah, my cigar smoking, vintage car afficianado fan of Dr. Strangelove, how can you compare a tube amp to driving a vintage car when, although you have driven vintage cars, you've never listened to a tube amp?

I have suffered from an affection for vintage cars, and can tell you, that there is no comparison. Vintage cars are expensive and perform poorly by today's standards. A good tube amp is as good if not better than a solid state amp.

I've enjoyed a 1990 390 AMX 4 speed (not bad at all by current standards), a 1954 Hudson Hornet with the Twin-H 7X racing engine, and enjoyed the heck out of that one, but would concede a Honda Accord is an infinitely superior vehicle.

A good (modern) tube amp, on the other hand, reproduces music beautifully and gives up nothing to its sand based rivals.

Just my opinion of course. Yours may differ. It's still a free country.

Yes - its been a little slow in litigation land. Not that there aren't enough people to sue - but all the judges are out on the golf course, so there's nobody to listen to me anywhere but the boards....and yeah, it was a busy day on the boards. Fun too.

It was fun. You can be my lawyer any day! It was very impressive how you defused the situation.

I think too many people became emotional over the situation.
The remarks where entertaining though, I barely got any work done today.

In reply to:

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A good (modern) tube amp, on the other hand, reproduces music beautifully and gives up nothing to its sand based rivals.

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Nothing? Not even accuracy?

Going back to the car analogy, when I push the gas pedal 25% of the way down, I expect the car to accelerate at roughly 25% of its capability. When I push the pedal all the way down, I want it to accelerate at 100% of its capability. A solid state amp will give you linear, predictable results. A tube amp, however, introduces fluctuations in frequency response, so pushing the pedal 65% of the way may result in only 63.89% of total acceleration.

Damn! Missed another party. I was on a cross-country flight all day. (I'm in Maryland now.) Lucky for me it was jetBlue, so at least I had DirecTV.

Just read the thread here...gotta love a good debate...reminds me of the Harley / Japanese cycle debate, the blade / cavity back debate, instant replay, etc, etc

Still would love to hear a direct comparison of ss vs tubes for myself...maybe someday

Yeah, This one was better than the last one. It literally became ugly. The guy was bashing Ami. Not cool.
He definitely got what he deserved, in my opinion.

Harleys are crude, cavity backs are ugly.

Honda RC51, Valkyrie Rune for touring, Titleist Tour Blades, Tube amplifiers.

It's really simple ... really.

Oh, yes, almost forgot ... if you're not shifting, you're not driving - manual transmissions.

BTW, one 6spd



second 6 spd

...but it's so hard to shift while talking on a cell phone!

FYI, I drive a stick and hate using a cell while driving.

In reply to:

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how can you compare a tube amp to driving a vintage car when, although you have driven vintage cars, you've never listened to a tube amp?

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I admit I haven't listened to a tube amp...I'd like to but I don't have one handy. I only said that the analogy seems apt based on what I know. My mother-in-law's husband used to have a pair of Dynaco(?) monoblocks, but they burned up, almost causing a fire. Sigh.

Anybody within a few hours of Louisville have one I can listen to?

Mark

As much as I respect all opinions, as the owner of a vintage auto (1955 Studebaker Champion), and previous owner of tube amps (Rogue Audio 90's, early models), I must agree that the appreciation is different. I am passionate about both, but it is much easier to find a (insert modern technology here) than find a vintage automobile. OT - I was once offered a new Mustang GT even up trade for my Stude, to which I responded " I can easily find and buy the 'Stang, but replacing my '55 would take a lot of work" - and was greated with a blank look!!

The analogy presumes that the tube amps are outdated....not engineered with the quality that todays technology can deliver. Are they based on older technology (tubes), sure, but how much has the basics of an internal combustion engine (and its inherent inefficient nature) changed over the course of time? Both have been improved by enhancing the support systems around the center piece technology.

My view is, and was, the amps sound fine. Are they better than SS? Maybe, maybe not, depending on the engineering quality of the comparison other. Did I enjoy them? Yes, and I also enjoy SS amps.

I think it is important to keep an open mind, and try to experience all that this hobby has to offer - expensive systems and components, different technologies designed into these components. I would recommend that people should experience a quality turntable, tube amps, electrostatic speakers, and in general make your own mind up on what you hear.

Well, Mhorgel, you cigar smoking afficianado of vintage cars and good tunes, all I can say is, if you find yourself in Southern California, COME ON BY, and I'll audition some tubes for ya!

I have the ASL which knocks my socks off, and my dad is shipping out an old top-of-the-line Harman Kardon tube amp which'll get the overhaul treatment of new and modern capacitors, etc., and then get added to my collection of musical foot warmers. Hopefully it'll be up and running pretty soon.

Mhorgel, what you say is reasonable but not based on personal experience. If I told you that I thought the Marantz amp you have recommended is OK but not as good as an ATI, and if I told you that I never heard a Marantz amp, what would you say?

If someone says they listened to Tube Amp X and liked it or didn't like it, what can you say? Their opinion is based on experience, it has prima facie value. If someone says I never heard a tube amp but I think they're great or I think they're crap, what can you say of such an opinion? Only that it is based on something other than personal experience - it may be based on a report from someone else with personal experience or based on theory (all tube amps are crap, thanks Alan) or all tube amps are great. Neither is of value.

That's why I say, trust your ears and I'll throw a steak on the BBQ for ya if you want to listen to my tube amp.

I would love to take you up on your offer. I have family in the LA area and will probably visit them before the end of the year.

I think you took me too literaly...I wasn't passing judgemnent on tube amps, you are correct that I cannot do so because I have no experience with them. I think that all I said was that the vintage car analogy proposed by another poster seemed apt in that ones experience with an older technology can be as good or better than that with a newer technology.

I am looking forward to hearing a tube amp at some time in the future...until then, I am keeping an open mind.

Mark

Yes, Mhorgel, I understand, no experience, you've never been moved by tube music, but as Yoda said, "you will be, you will be!"

Let me know when you'll be in town and we'll have a good time!!

Ah, but the question isn't whether or not you will be moved. Solid state receivers regularly move me with the music they reproduce.

The big question is which type of pre-amp/amp moves to a greater degree.

I have plenty of excellent sand box amps and fancy front ends to compare to the tubie.

Sounds like pmbuko is angling for an invite!

Beautiful new pic BTW.

PMB has a standing invite. Just PM when you're in the neighborhood PMB!

I have a big Weber, plenty of room ... ideally, I'd like someone to bring a pair of M3s, someone a pair of M22s and if anyone has any Ascends, bring 'em along! We can hook 'em up to the tubie with the Mapleshade Clearview Double Golden Helix Plus weird speaker wires and compare!

Yes, compare them to each other, and to the Michaura M66s currently in place and a pair of modified M55s I have waiting to be pressed into service.

2x6, I thought you had a pair of M3's?

Next time, you should make BigWill bring his M60's AND his Monitor Audio's and really have some fun. Of course, you'd probably need more beer.

Your kindness and grace on this topic is much appreciated.

Tom, if you ever want to dry off, come on down to Orange County!

Hi Tom

I've had many pairs of M3s - I gave them away, settled on the Michaura M55s and M66s for my tube system. Sometime down the road, I'll try a pair of reference 3a de capo mms. I gave the M3s away because I didn't want them just sitting in the closet while I used the M55/66s. I thought they were too good for that and I didn't want to deprive them of what they're best at - giving musical pleasure to music lovers. Someday I'll probably pick up another pair.