Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Denon 3805

I think I'm missing something here. The 3805 up-converts everything to component video...........but then how come I get on-screen display from the Denon when S video is used and up-converted but I can't get on screen when I run a direct component connection to the Denon? I'm lost. Anybody?

Hey man nice to see another Vet.

Hey I don't know about your question, but I have one for you:

I see the Denon has the upconversion to 100Mhtz where the Yammies are about 60.

deos this mean anything..in the real world?

thanks

HHS 2-18 FA (some years ago) hahha

Hey John,

Did you get the problem solved? If not, I just ran across this thread over at AVS where I fellow is having a similar problem with his 2805. There are a couple of suggestions (by SteveS - posts 3 & 9), which haven't worked for him, that you might try.

virtualexister,
Think in terms of bandwidth. The more you have, the better signal you will get at the TV. I'm a little shocked the Yamaha is only 60 as I thought the general thought on up-converting was the minimum had to be 75 to avoid any potential signal loss......Ajax thanks for the link. I will take a peek and see as it's driving me nuts.

If it's anything like the 3803 then you can only get the onscreen display from either the s-video or composite inputs. There must be something in the manual about this.

I feel better now. The 3805 will only display set-up options etc. If you adjust a level during playback or volume etc, it won't display it as to not get in the way of the movie. It does however display set-up info etc......I guess it pays to look deep into the manual!

NeverHappy,

This whole thing about bandwidth of the component-video inputs/outputs is getting out of hand and into the realm of marketing.

A bandwidth of 35MHz to 50 MHz is ample to pass a full-quality component-video signal with no degradation or losses, if it's well implemented.

Having more bandwidth--70 or 100 MHz--will not "improve" the video signal, or make it sharper.

On-screen displays don't seem to work with the component-video pass through, for reasons I have not yet discovered. . .

Regards,

I must agree with Alan on that one, but for some reasons (maybe marketing, who knows) there was some talk about true hi-def signals are cutting it a bit short with the 50MHz bandwidth signal pass (I have the denon avr-4802 with 50MHz video -component bandwidth) so denon increased their newer lines with 100MHz video-component bandwidth but we have yet to experience in north america true hi-def signals, mainly shown in europe & asia ... having seen it would say is a huge diffence in video quality than north america's version of hi-def

just my 2 cents

Alan,
I did a little digging and you are more or less right on the money although there is some debate. 35 seems to be the magic number but many are saying more is not a bad thing either. I don't know either way but I'm from the more is more school of thought. I would prefer to have to much, then not enough!

I must admit that I was shocked to learn that a true Progressive Scan NTSC signal only needs 13.5MHz! and a true 1080iHDTV needs exactly 37MHz. and can drop down to 22MHz with very little loss.

In case anyone cares:

System Bandwidth Requirements for Video:

NTSC Broadcast and VHS: 4.2 MHz
Laser Disk: 5.3 MHz

Regular NTSC DVD: 7 (6.8) MHz

Progressive Scan NTSC DVD and 480p DTV: 13.5 MHz

1080i HDTV: 37 MHz; in practice with 22 MHz the picture is still very superb.

720p HDTV; 37 MHz.

I found this in my travels:

In reply to:

---

1. The per component versus system bandwidth issue

Insufficient bandwidth here starts to show up as loss of the finest picture details in analog video, and can lead to intermittent, partial, or total loss of the picture especially in digital video.

Bandwidth with no other qualification means the frequency range over which the frequency reproduced worst (or transmitted worst) comes out at least half as strong as the frequency that is reproduced best. The technical term for this is "not more than 3 decibels down".

If we have two components (each cable counts as a component) with a given bandwidth connected together, some frequencies may suffer the 50% loss twice which in terms of decibels is six dB down. Usually the greatest loss is at the top of the frequency range in question. So we might want to figure out where now is the highest frequency that still comes out at least half as strong as the best reproduced frequency. This is not an exact science and is not easy to measure. So experts simply pick a safety margin such as twice or three times the bandwidth. The more components in the video signal path, the greater the potential loss. For a typical home theater setup, there are two sets of cables and the audio visual receiver between the source device such as a DVD player, and the TV. I suggest choosing components with twice the bandwidth needed (up from a previous recommendation of 20% more bandwidth.). Some experts say you need three times the bandwidth for each component to almost guarantee a system frequency response no more than one dB down (less than 20% loss) at the highest video frequency desired.

For HDTV, which requires 37 Mhz system bandwidth, choose each piece of equipment to have at least 74 Mhz bandwidth if you are using component video connections.

---

http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/whyten.htm

I'm still going on this.....lol Alan made me think a little. If what he said is true, and it is why does Denon bother? Took me a bit but the answer is in my post above. It's not about what one signal needs, it's more about what multiple signals need. Now I get it!....and I think now more then ever that Denon is on the money with going to 100 due to multiple input signals etc. I guess you can counter this by saying how many signals can you watch at one time? but think multiple zones etc.

maybe this will help....

http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/750

or

http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/bandwid.htm



In a Nutshell

Definition: Bandwidth is defined as the frequency range that the circuit, component, cable, or complete system can pass where the frequencies reproduced , transmitted, or amplified worst come out at least half as strong as those coming out best.

Bandwidth is important when shopping for HDTV or progressive scan video equipment.

System Bandwidth Requirements for Video:

NTSC Broadcast and VHS: 4.2 MHz
Laser Disk: 5.3 MHz

Regular NTSC DVD: 7 (6.8) MHz

Progressive Scan NTSC DVD and 480p DTV: 13.5 MHz

1080i HDTV: 37 MHz; in practice with 22 MHz the picture is still very superb.

720p HDTV; 37 MHz.

http://home.att.net/~rfowkes1/ComponentVideoSwitching.html



Some might say that "more is better", but in this case it simply isn't true. We've consulted with a number respected engineers in the HDTV world, and they all agree that 40 or 50 MHz in the analog connection of HDTV signals is all that you need to want. Wider bandwidth in these connections may subject the system to possible RFI/EMI interference from a variety of sources. In other words, you'd find that you have "too much of a good thing". In audio there are some who say that wide bandwidth is appropriate, but in video all you will do is run the risk of having to deal in intrusion from a variety of unwanted signals.

The conclusion: Sure, we could easily design a switching system with 50, 100 or 200 MHz bandwidth, but there is no reason to do so. Spending money on components that deliver no perceptible benefit just to claim a higher figure than internationally recognized standards call for is just silly

NeverHappy, Lorenzo is correct. To get the on screen display, for the 3803/3805, you need an S-video connection (really not much value in upconverting the settings menu). Before I got my 3803, I did a search on "3803" at AVS Forum and picked up a bunch of interesting stuff - most natably this little on screen dispay thing. It's just the way Denon set it up. A bit kludgy, but it works fine.

Ray

So if I run a S video cable from my DVD player to the 3805 plus run the component cable, at the end of the day I'm watching the S video upconverted or the actual component feed? That is what still has me a little lost.

As for the whole bandwidth thing, I'm done. I have been to over 20 sites in the last few hours and I can find 10 people who say that 50 etc is enough and another 10 who say more is better.

*pats his 3805*

The receiver is ONLY connected via component, so I can tell you on screen does work through component video, but NOT through component video with progressive scan.

- D

Never, I'm a bit confused. The ONLY reason for the S-Video is to get to get at the On-screen display. For watching DVDs you will also want to hook up the component video.

No reason or need to upconvert the S-video for the display - it's just words and won't be accessed that often.

I'm confused. Why don't you just run a plain old RCA out to a separate input on your TV. When you want to access the set-up menu, you have to switch inputs with the TV remote, but WTF it ain't that big of a deal.

You must be lazier than me, which is hard to believe.

On a related note, I have my remote set up with a command to get to the display. One more button takes me back to the TV.