Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Can the M60s be "delicate" in a small room?

'd love to say that I've been lurking here for a long time, but the truth is, this is my first time here.

I've been taking steps to upgrade my HT and am doing some preliminary research on speakers. I currently have a pair of DCM TimeFrame 600's as my mains but I'm in a fairly small room and I know that they would do better in a larger room. (I once took them into another larger room and driving them with my old NAD 2200 amp at several hundred wpc, I remember them as being pretty impressive). The other day, I purchased a universal disc player and did some critical listening, and they just really seem to be “veiling” some of the detail that I was hearing on the new discs (as well as old ones). It’s almost as if I could tell that the DVD-A and SACD selection had more to offer then the speakers were letting through…especially in the highs. They're also physically "wide" speakers and, with only so much wall space, they are limiting my desire to move to a ~42"~46" LCD projection TV. A "narrower" monopole or the move to bookshelf speakers would free up some space physically. My system is also not matched… with a DCM from a different model line as the center and those old Realistic Linolium (!!! SP?) LX-7s (or whatever they are) in the surrounds.

Anyway, here are some of the particulars: Room size is 13' square for a total of 170 square feet. I would be driving the system with my new Denon 3805. For movies, I like dramas and action. For music, I like everything from Guns N' Roses and old hard rock bands like Aerosmith and Led Zeppelin through Carly Simon and John Mayer and Michael Hedges…. pretty wide-ranging. I’m looking to crank up some rock one day, and yet enjoy the delicacy of an acoustic guitar on DVD-Audio the next.

I’ve read some great posts in other forums regarding Axiom speakers… particularly the M22s and M60s. I’m really not too concerned about the price difference between them; I look at speaker purchasing as being long-term as opposed to the many other items that get upgraded constantly and the $400 difference isn’t one that I’m concerned with.

My thought is this based upon what I’ve read: The M60s will do better with that hard rock (pretty logically), but my not have the delicacy of the M22s on that acoustic guitar. My experience with my current speakers makes me hesitant to buy a speaker too large for my needs. Again, not because of the price, but because it might actually be detrimental to the sound. Usually, I regret “under buying” and have learned over the years to spend a little more on the better product/item. In this case, though, I’m afraid of “over buying”.

Here’s another kicker: I might end up in a much larger space in another couple of years, as my wife and I are discussing refinishing an attic that would result in a 25’ x 35’ “great room” with a high, peaked ceiling. Certainly, the M22s could not fill that space. This might mean that the M22s serve my needs well at the moment, but not down the road. If the M60s don’t do as well in a “smallish” room, though, they would only meet potential long-term needs but not do as well in the meantime.

To sum up lots of background and a way-too-long post:

Do the M60s need to “open up” in a big room, or do they handle the delicate stuff as well as the reviews say the M22 does?

Welcome! and next time let's try and keep any fututre posts to the point! lol Just kidding!!!!

Anyway, in a nutshell, based on the fact you may go with a bigger room down the road, I would have no problem saying take a good long look at the M60's. I also don't think they would do to bad in a small room.

mark- i dont think the M60's would be 'overkill' in that room, but they will definitely cause some ear damage if cranked at high volumes for extended periods of time.. my whole point being, you dont have to turn the volume all the way up. i think you will be more than pleased with the detail and clarity that the 60's would provide. since cost isn;t an issue, and there is a possibility of your HT moving to a bigger room, then i think the M60's are a no-brainer over the M22's.

i noticed from your list of music, that you listen to some older stuff. i think it is fair to mention, that the precise and extremely accurate transulation the axioms provide, often bring out the flaws of badly recorded cd's. all of my old zeps and old kiss sound pretty bad due to the poor recording process.. but, well made, well recorded cd's sound better than you can imagine. you will hear them full and clear. so, just keep in mind, a precise speaker like the axioms, can be a double edged sword.

good luck in your decision, and keep us posted.

bigjohn

Welcome Mark,

I have the M60s in a room 11.5 x 18 x 8. Due to the depths of my HDTV and it's stand, the front edges of the 60s are 28" from the wall behind them, and I only sit about 8 feet from each speaker. It's been suggested that my room is too small for the M60s, and I suspect there will be those who will say the same about yours. I disagree. Do you need speakers as large as the 60s to fill your room? Heck no. Would the 22s be good for your room. Heck yes. Will the 60s be too much for your room? Not in my opinion! I moved from the 22s to the 60s for the lower midrange/upper bass the 60s could provide, and am very glad I did. The 22s are terrific speakers, and I wholeheartedly wish I could've afforded to keep both. But, for me, the move was a wise one. YMMV.

In reply to:

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The M60s will do better with that hard rock (pretty logically), but my not have the delicacy of the M22s on that acoustic guitar.

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I don't think I agree with this, either. The only difference between the 22s and the 60s that I experienced is a the above-mentioned lower midrange/upper bass fullness in the 60s. Other than that, they sounded very much alike, to me.

Whichever speaker you order, should you find them unsatisfactory for any reason, it will only cost you the return shipping to send them back, as long as you're still within the 30 trial period.

Please keep us posted on what you decide, and how it works out.

The M60's will be able to show off their stuff a bit more in a larger room, but you'll not be disapointed in the room your in. They're still amazingly clear, and tight in a small setting.

Hi Mark, welcome.

Yeah, what those guys said

I missed any mention of a sub. Do you now have one or do you plan to purchase one? I'd say for great HT you need one regardless of which model you choose, and most people report that music with the M22 is much enhanced with a sub also.

I listened to my M60's in a pretty small room for quite a while without a sub. Like Jack, I was only about 8 feet from the speakers. I thought the soundstage and imaging were amazing. I stilll think that for music, they are fabulous even without a sub. I have since moved them to a very large room and added an SVS sub, and they are just as spectacular.

Be aware that, like your wonderful DCM's, they are quite deep speakers.

I have never felt that the M60's were not up to any given task. They are fabulously detailed.

You'll still have those DCM's in the big room, so you may not need to buy the M60's. Likewise, you might find that the Axiom surrounds are a decent match for your DCM's and represent an improvement over the Realistic surrounds.

Depending upon how far away from the speakers you will be in the great room, you might find that the M22's/sub would work there as well. If not, you could always put them in the rear for 7.1

There's no way to tell except by listening.

Let us know how it goes.

I agree with Ajax and spiff. The M60s and M22s sound very much alike except for the obvious differences you get b/w a bookshelf and tower size model.

However, if your room is so small that the speakers (M60s) are placed too close together, let's say less than 8 feet apart, you might find yourself doing alot of tweaking to get a good soundstage going.
In our basement, with the 8 foot distance in separation, the sweet spot (9 feet back) is rather narrow (about 3 feet wide) on our couch. In another location where we had the speakers about 10 feet apart, sitting 12 feet back, the soundstage was much improved.
This will vary room to room but going with M22s will give you more room to play with placement in a smaller space. Just something to consider.

Go with the M60s - and don't look back. Not only are they a gorgeous looking speaker - they rock as hard as you want, but are as delicate as a rose too.

My musical tastes are very similar to yours. I grew up on G'n'R' and classic rock, but have recently fodnu myself gravitating towards more "delicate" music like John Mayer and the like. Both are handled extremely well by the 60s. In fact, I find that the more subtle pieces reveal the true character of these speakers. Anything can rock - just turn it up and bang your head! Not everything can reveal the nuance and dynamic range of classical or the intimate soudnstage of acoustic guitar/singer style of music - but the M60s excel at this.

I often play my music on "pure direct" (on a Yamaha) which leaves only the M60s on ( no surround, sub or center) without any processin gof the sound - no added compression, steering software or frequency response tweaks. I think that my music sounds cleanest, purest and more DISTINCT this way.

ENJOY! ( I wish that I was still researching this topic - its exciting, isn't it?)

First of all, thanks to each of you for taking the time to respond! There seems to be quite a community here; it speaks well of Axiom both in their support of it and the loyalty of the forum users!

FWIW, I _do_ have a sub, but not a great one. It's an old JBL 100w/10” that I got at Sam's Club eight years ago. It adds enough boom to rattle the walls, but I don't believe it could be musical if it tried! In all fairness, it's currently placed in a corner and I think if I gained some space in the room it would do better with some sidewall options.

It was mentioned that the M22s might give me more flexibility in placement. In this case, that's not likely unless I wall-mounted them. I should have mentioned (though my post was already long enough!) that, as you face the monitor/speakers, there is a closet at the far left of the room... on the wall where the speakers would go. It certainly doesn't help the layout in terms of my options! The closet is not used very frequently, but I currently have a tendency to keep everything to the right of it so it can remain accessible. When we sit down to watch a DVD, I simply drag the left speaker further to the left to keep the mains equidistant from the monitor and center channel and gain some width in soundstage. I would do the same for music listening; although it’s been a long time since I sat in one place and critically listened to music, I plan on doing more of it!

Finally, I should have mentioned that the room has hardwood floors. Despite that, I wouldn’t characterize the room as “live” nor “dead”.

Since the subject was broached anyway……

I’ve read here that the Axiom subs are not necessarily the best value out there. I’ve been considering one of them anyway in that the sidewall placement will leave it in a very visible spot and, for aesthetic reasons, there’s obviously an advantage to having the same finish as my mains. Are the differences between the Axioms and the other favored brands pretty minor, or are they substantial? Remember that my room is, at 13x13, relatively small…

I’m looking for musicality over the lowest notes if given the choice…

Thank you all again- You make a newcomer feel very welcome!

Mark, i posted my thoughts recently on the Axiom vs. SVS subwoofers. There are several other comments on the forums about them. Many ppl including myself feel that Hsu and SVS are excellent values, but there is a fair amount of exaggeration surrounding their performance in comparison to Axiom's EP lineup.
It is very situational depedant.