Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Denon DRA-685 vs. Harmon Kardon HK 3480

These seem to be the main competitors in the field for high current receivers to drive my new M80's. Any opinions?
I'd be interested on the build quality too, such as cpacitor size, transformer type, etc.
My vintage Technics integrated amp drives the Axioms, but Im persuaded that something more muscular might deliver more impact.
I switched off the "8 0hm/4 ohm" switch on the back of the Technics amp the other day to see if it delivered any more bass authority. After a few minutes, I touched the top of the amp and almost burned myself!
Needless to say, I switched it back to 4 ohms.

Couple months ago I'd also looked at the Onkyo 8511, HK 3480, and the Denon 685. The Onkyo 8511 runs much hotter than the HK and Denon, I can not imagine how hot would it get if I were to run it at 4ohm so I didn't feel comfortable getting this unit and scratch it off of my list. The Denon didn't sound too natural to me and it was a bit on the bright side, cosmetically it feels cheaper than both Onkyo and HK, the Denon didn't play as loud and it was clipping at about 80% to max while the HK and Onkyo still doing comfortably at the same level, though the HK 3480 has lots of headroom left, provide the cleanest and most natural sound, and only slightly warm to touch after hours of cranking. Personally I also prefer the HK appearance eventhough it was not my purchase factor, so it was a no-brainer to me and I chosed HK 3480.
For your M80, some people tend to think it's a little bit brighter than the M60, M22tii and M2i, plus you need a receiver capable of 4ohm to run them, so of the two you'd mentioned the HK 3480 will smoke the Denon all day long, I do not think the Denon is capable of running at 4ohm, even if it does...I bet it's going to run so hot you can BBQ with it.
I'm sure there's other option out there, including the NAD 320 and some Rotel that you can consider, though they cost twice as much and only put out about half of the power of 3480. Sure, you can look at used stuff, but it's a 50/50 chance that you might get screwed over, personally I don't buy used stuff and I hate auction, unless I know the seller personally otherwise I prefer to get my stuff brand new. The HK 3480 only going for $299.00 with Free Shipping from J&R, so I don't think you can't get any better deal than that. As far as I'm concern The HK3480 is the one and only stereo receiver that have the Sub pre-out too!!
Another option to consider is to use your current Technics as a preamp, and get two Outlaw M 200 monoblocks, these bad boys are putting out 300 watts @ 4 ohms without breaking a sweat and it will drive your M80 to reference level. I think they're running for about $500 for a pair, I'll definitely go this route when I get a pair of M60 in the near future.

You should also consider a separate stereo amp for the M80s.
Many used and quality items can be found on Audiogon.

yup, as Chesseroo said, also consider stereo amps, I don't know what your budget is, but if you're willing to spend up to $1100 and only need Stereo, then take a good look at the Odyssey Stratos, I had the silver faceplate and didn't get the caps upgrade, I was using this amp along with the Parasound 850 preamp to run a pair of Acoustic Research AR3 up front, this puppy is elegant and sound very natural, it has a little better soundstage and imaging, mid to low range have more oomph as well. The only "downside" is it took forever to break-in, I'd played only 4 to 5hr a day and the amp didn't really open up till about 4 to 5 months later.

dema,
You included my name in a post that mentions break-in.
I'm hurt, i'm really hurt.

Weelp, it could of been my ears that were being break-in, but either way, it was still an improvement nonetheless, atleast in psychologically perspective. Isn't that what music is about? sound wave and signal stimulation!!
But seriously though, all processors(cpu) that I'd owned and worked on in the past 15 years, required a time frame to burn-in (or break-in if you will), and this 24hr burn-in process is part of the QC and requirement,it always result in further system stability before all the units were being shipped out to the contractor or government, there's no exception in this regard. After the burn-in period, cpu often have the capability to be clock higher(sometime much higher) than the designated speed. Now back to the audio world, the Odyssey Statos designer documented clearly on the manual regarding the couple steps of the break-in period as well, who do you think know better than the electronic designer/engineer of the amp himself?

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but either way, it was still an improvement nonetheless, atleast in psychologically perspective. Isn't that what music is about? sound wave and signal stimulation!!

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You get no argument here.

But here you will,
CPUs and amps do not perform the same function and ergo cannot be equated to break-in with a similar conclusion. CPUs are most likely tested to ensure they are not duds for which a 24h period seems to suffice or is perhaps an industry standard.
With the cpu analogy, it only takes 24h for them to burn in, and this is mostly heat related issues i would imagine. How is it that amps take months?

So many simple questions with so many complicated attempts at answers without a definitive answer.
You have to enjoy the mass confusion of it all.

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who do you think know better than the electronic designer/engineer of the amp himself?

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Simple. Other professionals in the field who are not trying to sell a product with age old myths that the public seems to enjoy believing.
Marketing is everything, more so in audio than anything else i've come across to date.

dmw,

Harmon Kardon match real well with Axiom. Denon on the other hand, can be a little bright. I know because I have various HK's and Denon's receivers.

-Jerry

There are dozens of happy Denon/Axiom owners, and lots of people who think that there is no perceptible difference between comparably-rated SS receivers.

You probably can't go wrong either way.

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The Denon didn't sound too natual to me and it was a bit on the bright side

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The only "downside" is it took forever to break-in, I'd played only 4 to 5hr a day and the amp didn't really open up till about 4 to 5 months later

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It has been said that one cannot hear a difference in cd players but yet one can hear a differene in ss amps how is this?

I also thought break in for ss amps was another one of those audio myths and that is not to be believed by the consumer.

I am not saying you did not hear a difference you very well might have.Do then believe a person might be able to hear a differance in cd players as well.Seems to me a person either believes there could be a difference in the sound of all equipment or there is no sound difference in them at all.We shouldn't pick the myths we believe in and then dismiss it when someone else says they hear a difference in another piece in the audio chain.

Chesseroo:


hmmm, no arguement over the possibility of marketing hype when they claim the break-in process is necessary, although not absolutely.

Now the fun part about cpu, it's a whole new discussion and it's going to take pages to explain the architecture and nature of microprocessor and it's relation to other electronics. But in the nutshell, burning in a semiconductor devices is nothing but a process that uses a specific type of environment stress on an accelerated basis within design capability, in this case normally a burn-in software is being use, typically 24hr, certain units could be as long as 1 week straight.

The purpose is to detect latent flaws and defects that have a high probability of surfacing as infant mortality failures under field conditions. In doing so, what do you think is going to occur? Electromigration, to a certain degree. I'll try to put it in the simplest way, either you cleared up the restricted metal ions (or pipe lines if you will) and allow more electric current to flow through, or the electrons get congested and eventually will change the flowing pattern.

And what do all these translated to? something was being changed. True, amplifiers are not as complicated as computers, but similar result still happen to the circuit board, chipsets, and many other components within the unit. An amplifier doesn't has as much pipe-lines or circuits as a computer, but electrons that passes through the metal ion surface are much greater and stronger than you could ever imagine, ever get shocked by messing around with a monitor, old tv, or powersupply?? :-) This is not a rule, but simply the law of physics and the nature of electronics, and I strongly believe the changes that took place during or after the electromigration is the main reason why some of those amplifiers or receivers MIGHT sound different after a period of time.

On the other hand, I'm not going to rule out the placebo effect either. I'm sure you've heard countless of people tend to let their equipments run for a week or two and didn't pay much attention to them at first, then they'll proceed and do the "serious" and critical listening afterward. Well, since you didn't pay as much attention to the music in the beginning, of course you are going to notice much more details and soundstage/imaging later on, because you ARE expecting to hear them.

Wid,

Try not to read only between lines, but if you did went through all I've said, then you should know I also mentioned the biggest bottleneck of music reproduction is the speakers, and here is where you get the most out of your money, if I have to put them in order, CD player is right at the bottom of the list. Let me make it a bit more clearer, IMO the differences you hear in speakers is the greatest, then the amplifiers/receivers, and finally the CD Player.

Did you not read I also told Saturn that the cost to performance ratio isn't as great when it comes to CD Player? Did you not read I couldn't hear any differences between the soundcard and the Sony DVD/CD player that I got? notice i said SONY DVD/CD PLAYER. Did I or did I not also laid down my doubt and the possibility of the Sony being crap? and please do me a favor and find me a line where I said there's absolutely no sound difference among ALL CD PLAYER.

Since when did breaking in component has anything to do with the quality of the CD Player...in this case, the Laser lens itself and the decoder chip? If you have any kind of scientific common sense then you should also know electric current cannot change the property of glass, and decoder/encoder can only process so much data that it was designed to.

It seems to me that people often open their mouth, well...in this case, close their eyes and start typing a bunch of misleading accusation to put down other people, this is getting pretty funny....heh. :-)

Wid


by the way, check my previous respond toward chess, then ask yourself this....how much electric current can a $30 walmart and $3K "audiophine" cd player possibly use? eh?

I have went back and re read your posts and in fact what you have stated above is correct I believe I do owe you an apology.So with that I say I am sorry.

I forgot to mention,I see you are into drag racing.The carquest U.S. nationals are here in Joliet this weekend.I have been going to these for the past 4 years.This is the most exciting sport I have ever been to.Its going to be a high of 60 degree's this weekend there should be some record breaking times.I'm sure we can agree on that one.

not hyped up or anything, just trying to avoid unnecessary debates that had already been mentioned that's about it, I'm sorry for all those harsh words that were solely came out of frustration, and I hope I didn't offend anyone, please dont' take it personally though (hopefully Saturn wouldn't either) . ;-)

As for 1/4mi drag, the weather suck a big one down here and we haven't been able to do much racing recently, I just ported the stock heads and swapped the Thunder Racing 224/224 112LSA cam package couple weeks ago, it's running quite lean at the moment, last weekend I heard a little tickling noise while I was letting it ripped, I might of bend a pushrod or two so this coming weekend I'll pull them out and double check, rocker arms might need to be tighten up a little bit, and I'll also need to reprogram the Air/Fuel ratio and fine tune the timing as well.

I still have a set of 40lb injectors laying around that I'll have to swap in very soon, it's a PITA to work on these darn LS1, luckily I don't have to pull out the darn TNT nitrous kit to get all these crap done though....heh.

http://www.geocities.com/ben99z28/tnt/nos.htm

It's a sweet looking ride, but you wouldn't catch me dead in one of those lol...

I like watching it, but I would never do it...

demasoni,

I doubt that the effects of electromigration would be significant in electronics that don't involve such microscopic processes. Electromigration is the wandering of metal atoms into the silicon insulation layers between lines. Given the scale of today's processors, there can be as little as 5 or so atoms thickness dividing those lines. Thus, if the device is operated under extreme temperatures, and those atoms wander, it's possible to create a bridge between lines that should not be bridged, or just cut a line entirely someplace. Also electromigration doesn't ever improve the condition of a cpu. The testing may reveal that a given cpu is capable of handling faster speeds than it was designed to without experiencing electromigration, but in those cases the chip was that way to begin with and it was only revealed through the testing, not a side effect created by the testing.

I'd already gave you the benefits of doubt as I laid out other possibilities. :-) One sure way to find out is to use two brand spanking new and identical receivers or amps. Use one for about a month or so and store away the other, then A/B them side by side couple months later, anybody willing to demonstrate the test? :-)

S/S burn in... what IS the half life of silicon, anyway?

Bren R.

Cool, and I was starting to think I was the only speed freak around here. My passion is making things go fast. Then trying to kill myself driving/riding them....LOL.. Ain't nothing quite like the thrill of running a 9 sec 1/4 and keeping it in a straight line. But maybe landing a 90 foot tripple.

running at the 1/4mi track is a fun, but still can't compare to the thrill of running AWAY from all those five-o who tried to crack down on street racing!! there's nothing more exciting than watching those flashy blue and red stropes disappearing in your rear-view mirror after you'd flipped the switch and let the juice do its magic :-)

I'm a bit late on this thread, but getting back to the microprocessor burn-in issue. The burn-in process during manufacturing has nothing to do with performance change or break-in, at least not as far as I've ever heard. There are two failure modes that are brought out during this process. The first is infant mortality - basically fab defects in the die. The second is ionic contamination. This situation causes mobile ions in the transistors to collect at the junctions when the transistors are powered up and run at high temperature. These extra ions cause the junction characteristics to shift which can cause out of spec behavior. The burn-in temperatures depend on the type of voltages present on the chips. I've worked with 105C and 137C burn-in. The time is also dependent upon what the IC specs are. These are derived from some MIL standard. I spent 4 years working with burn-in processes and never once heard about performance-variation being a factor in burn-in - and this was with with analog and digital circuits for pacemakers and defibs, which are a bit more critical than audio equipment. If it was a real phenomenon, I would think that it would be a factor in that industry. Just my .02

Pete

I have been in this IT field for 15 years, As a PC technician and QC specialist for the first 10 years, of ALL cpu that I overclocked in the past decade gave me the exact same result, no exception. I was ALWAYS be able to either clock them higher, or lower the vcore voltage after a period of burn-in.
I'll give you the most recent example, my AMD Barton 2500, this is one of many overclocking champ out there. This chip can go all the way up to 1.90v(motherboard limitation) at any given clock speed. Right out of the box I installed this cpu, along with a heatpipe copper heatsink and 7500rpm cpu fan, I was able to clock this sucker up to 208 FSB x11 @1.85v, Prime95 crashed at 19hr, I had to clock down the FSB to 206 to get it past 24hr @Prime95, Vcore had to remain at or above 1.85v otherwise it's crash city. As usual, I let the Prime95 ran in the background for about a week.
I was able to pumped up the FSB to 222 x11 @1.85v a week later, past 24hr Prime95, then after couple days of tweaking and Prime95 testing, the cpu remain 100% stable at 222FSB x11, Vcore was dropped to 1.75v without any problem whatsoever. REMEMBER, this chip is AIR-COOLED, no water-block being use, no Peltier, none of those exotic cooling devices.
If you'd ever get involved in any serious overclocking, then you should of known how burning in the processor effects the end result you get, Be it Intel or AMD, they ALWAYS, ALWAYS...can run at either 1)lower vcore, or 2)higher clock speed, after a period of burn in or usage. If you know overclocking, then you should also know how burning in(or period of usage) effect the thermal compound and the cpu temperature as well. This is no myth, this is no magic, this is no rocket science either.

FOR Anyone else who said the process of burning-in has absolutely no effect on cpu's performance and how it behave afterward, please do yourself a favor, do some research and learn the art of overclocking, try to experience what overclocking is all about in the real world(instead of in your la-la-land!!), get some hands on experience and see for yourself how burning in(or broken-in) processor has effect on its performance. If you come back and tell me that you didn't see any difference, then either 1)you don't know exactly what the heck you were doing, or 2)you are one of the biggest liar in the world and ought to get your name in the Guiness book!! :-)

I thought we were takling about chips in amplifiers, not computers. Unless you're saying people overclock the processors in their amplifiers, then yes, burn-in makes no difference on an amplifier's performance.

Pmbuko, we were debating over CPU for PC, though I have never heard of anybody overclock their DAC/ADC or DSP chips though. :-)