Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners M80's vs M60's (or even M22ti) -Unique Questions!

Hi.

Everyone here seems friendly and talkative at the Axiom Forums, and I have done LOTS of reading on the Axioms's, both here and everywhere else I can find any threads! So, I am looking forward to your comments.

I promise this is not just a "Which one is better" type of post!

First some comments.

THANKS to Axiom, for not implying (like lots of other speaker companies, and sales products in general) that the M80's (or the most expensive product) is the BEST, and everything else is in the Shadow of the M80's and that, people will question my manhood if I should purchase or be satisfied with anything OTHER than the M80's!

Also, I am thrilled with Axiom's VALUE attitude towards their products. Yes, I would love hand sanded, cherry Wood finish, inlaiden with teak and oak, hand rubbed by virgin nymphs at midnight, but I would much rather have a less costly, yet still "state of the art" speaker.

Yes, I love the B&W top of the line speakers, but unless I become a CEO (of a BIG corporation!) or win a lottery, (Again, BIG!!) I do not think that I will ever be able to justify purchasing a top of the line B&W speaker.

This is why I am thrilled that Axiom can offer me near "state of the art" in sound, at a price that I can afford!

Also, I have to say, that Axiom's are the best speakers that I have NEVER heard! (Not a typo).

I am appreciative of the untold numbers of posts on ALL the various newsgroups and forums on the internet talking highly of the Axioms. Not professional reviews, but posts from users, raving about their systems. Whenever I research something on the net, I realise that I can find almost ANY opinion that I want to find. I never take any ONE person's comments as gospel, but when I read hundred's of posts praising a product, then I get the idea, that Hey, maybe this product is good!

However, this Blessing of State of the art Speakers, direct to the user, is also my frustration!

I can't listen to them! (maybe Axiom can make an MP3 of their speakers, so that I can hear them ! (GRIN!!!)

I can't go to my local dealer, and spend a couple of hours comparing the M22s, to the M60's to the M80's! (But then if I could, they would be 2-3 times more expensive too!)

So, I have read all about these speakers, how the M22's are very similar sounding to the M60's minus a little low end, M22's are easier to place, and the M60's are very similar to the M80's but the M80's can give more sound provided you have the amp in back of the M80's. The M80's can keep on giving, whereas at some point the M60's will give out, at the louder volumes. BUT, the M60's are "friendlier" to drive from most amps, whereas you need something special to drive the M80's 4 ohms, at louder levels.

So, what am I looking for in a speaker? Accurate, Clear, Crisp, detailed sound. Not just Louder.

I currently have a 10+ year old set of B&W 202's (inexpensive (for B&W) bookshelf speakers) that even then, were relatively inexpensive (about 400/pair in 1993). They still sound good, and I never remeber ever saying "gee, I wish they could get louder".

The speakers will be going into my "great room" a living room & Dining room combined, with a vaulted 12 foot ceiling. The kitchen is mostly open to the great room too.

While they will be primarially used for HT, I am most critical of my speakers when playing music. Being a percussionist in High school and College I gained a huge appreciation for music, and realized I had the skill but not the tallent to be a musician.

Here is where I need your help. I want the M80's and can afford them, but I am wondering if they are the best choice for the next year or two. I have people say that if you are on the fence, get the M80's you will be glad you did.

What will drive the M80's? THIS is where I need your input! I was about ready to "make the plunge" and buy "value" high end seperates (Outlaw, maybe Sherwood, maybe Crown pro amps etc), but as I was researching, I was realising that there is a lot that is going to be happening in the next year or two with pre-Pro's and even amps (DVI, HDMI, future SACD standards, digital amps).

So, I was content to do research, and wait 6 months or so, to see what the future brought, and then, BAMN, lightening struck! LITTERALY! My Pioneer elite receiver, my Toshiba TV, my laptop (modem) my dish DVR and other stuff got fried.

So I needed to buy a new reciver, and monitor. (Just FYI, I replaced my 36" Toshiba with a 32" Sanyo Flat Screen HDTV (not HDTV READY!) for 697 bucks at Wal-mart. It is very nice for the price).

And, I decided to hold off on the big pre-pro and mega amp upgrade, and purchased a Pioneer VSX-1014 (just came in last night - still is not all hooked up.)

So, here is one of my questions. I have read all about the 4 Ohm M80's, and how they can be finickey with amps, and how they really need a high quality - high watt amp to play loud, but what would happen if you were to hook them up to the likes of my new Pioneer VSX-1014 ?

The specs show a minimum Amp of 10 watts, so what would happen if I hooked up the M80's to the 1014? Would the M80's perform similar to the M60's at lower levels? Or would they be like a huge balloon, only ½ way filled? Whereas the M80's would be like a smaller balloon, but would look and sound better with the same amount of air?

Most of the time, my listening level is such that, I can still hear the phone ring.

The 1014 does have pre-outs, and a seperate amp could drive the M80's if needed.

Again, pure, crisp, clean, accurate sound is what I am after, but, somtimes that pure, crisp clean sound, happens to be an explosion or two or three.

So, I guess, in a nutshell, can I hook up the M80's to a receiver, realising that they might not be the "loudest of the loudest", as long as at lower volumes, I am still getting a "uncomprimized sound"?

My other option is to get the M22's, with the idea that they become "bedroom speakers" in a year or two.

So where do the M60's fit into all of this? I would like to hear someone's opinion of what the M60 vs the M80 sounds like, at lower to medium loud listening levels, say, in a room, 25x50 with a 12 ft ceiling. I don't have a db meter, so I realise this is a variable, but intent listening, but not painful, or to fill an auditorirum.

I'd also like to hear from anyone who has listened to the M80's on something like a higher end HT receiver.

It's a catch 22. If I buy the M60's I will be forever wondering if I should have purchased the M80's. If I buy the M80's and get less than sonic perfection with my current receiver, I will be wondering if the M60's should have been my choice.

Well, I guess that I could use the pre-out and get a Crown 402 amp, and use that to drive the M80's, leaving the rest of the receiver to drive the other channels, that might be a good option, or get a good 2 channel amp, and use that to drive the M80's.

I've rambled on long enough, thanks for any input you may have!

"Well, I guess that I could use the pre-out and get a Crown 402 amp, and use that to drive the M80's, leaving the rest of the receiver to drive the other channels, that might be a good option, or get a good 2 channel amp, and use that to drive the M80's."

If you want the M80s then go for it. My M60s are great, but they do harden up a little and get a little crowded sounding at super-high volumes. I reckon the M80s are much better at those levels. If saving $300 ain't important to you - and you don't mind buying a decent 2 channel amp to drive the M80s should the Pioneer be unable to do so - then go for the M80s.

It may be wise to look into visiting an Axiom owner for a demo, but since you like B&Ws you'll probably like these speakers, as well.

Good luck.

Well that depends on what B&W's he likes. I've heard their 600 series speakers and hated them. Their new 700 series sound great. (to my ears)

Go to your local dealer and listen to the new B&W 703 towers. That's pretty much the M33, M60, and M80 sound. Or better yet, as BigWill says, see if there's a local Axiom owner near you that will open up his house for a demo for you.

It sure seems as though your room is big enough to handle the M80's, but it's also not too big for the M60's. I don't know how loud BigWill is cranking his M60's but I've never had them so loud they started to strain. (And I've played them pretty darn loud!)

If you want a great two channel amp to add to your Pioneer to power the mains (whether it be the M60's or M80's) I recommend the Rotel RB-1080, or the Odyssey Stratos. Both are "giant killers", much like Axiom speakers are.

Hiya Bud. Welcome.

You know, I read that whole thing. And I gotta tell you, I deeply resent the insinuation that the beautiful vinyl on my M60's was not hand rubbed by virgin nymphs at midnight.

It sounds like you want the M80's. Get them. Listen to bigwill. If you find that your Pioneer has trouble driving them to satisfactory levels (and you might), you can always upgrade your amplification later. You'll probably never have to upgrade your speakers. Upgrades are inevitable.

You may want to consult directly with Axiom. I seem to recall that Denon and HK are recommended for the M80 load. Your Pioneer might work fine. It reminds me of something I saw at my daughter's swim meet - "it's not how far you swim. It's not how fast you swim. It's how far you swim fast". Your Pioneer may not be able to play loud, long.

But I seriously doubt you'd ever be disappointed with the M60's. I have them in a very large room, driven by a lowly Denon 1804 and play them cleanly as loud as I want. They are supported by a decent sub, though.

You probably would not find the M22's to be a satisfying upgrade from your B&W's. You would always wonder "what if..." relative to the Axiom floorstanders.

Thanks for the nice, long post. There is a thread at the top of the Questions/Comments forum listing Axiom owners who might be willing to give you an audition. There are several in Texas.

Keep us posted.

I want to throw something out here, because everyone's been so helpful here...I just want to "give" a little instead of "taking"!

I don't even own Axioms yet (They're on order)but I think a huge factor here for budget and overall sound will be subwoofer(s). That's a really big room you've got there, and even if you don't normally play your music terribly loud, I'm sure as someone who has experience as a drummer, you DO want to keep lots of dynamic range.

Anyway, I can't help much with an M60 VS. M80 question, or how much power it will take to drive either. But I DO know that if you have a powerful sub or two in there, it'll take a lot of the pressure off eith main speaker!

Unless you live in Iraq, I'm sure that there is an Axiom owner near you that will allow you to come over to listen. If you are concerned with the M80 power then you may want to hook two Outlaw 200 M block amps to your Pioneer elite. Those will give you plenty of juice. I have the M60's and love them. I, like you, do not turn the volume up to ear bleeding levels so the M80 may be a little overkill. If you do not want to audition the speakers at an owners house you may want to pic up the M60's and if they do not hold up to the volumes your are expecting then you can return them and upgrade to the M80's. Doing this will allow you to experience the sound quality of the M60/M80's and also see if the M60 can hold volume levels that you are looking for.

Hey Budd,

I would have concerns with the Pioneer running the M80's.Best thing to do is consult with Axiom and Pioneer and see what they have to say.

With a room of your size and IF the Pioneer can handle it go with the 80's.Adding and external amp would certainly solve the problem if in fact your reciever isn't up to the task.I use the Rotel that Spiff recommended in his post.With that amp giving you 300 watts @ 4 ohms it does make the 80's sing .I'm sure the Outlaw mono blocks would do ya just fine also.

So if you don't mind the thought of having to purchase an amp for the 80's go for it.If I were you I would try to find someone in the area with some Axioms to get an audition.

Get the M22ti and test drive it first, if you don't like what you hear...the most you would lose is the return shipping of a pair of bookshelf. IF you do like them...which I think you would, then it's safe to say you can either keep the M22ti for now, or return them and upgrade to M60, it share the same characteristics of M22ti but can handle more power, play louder, and lower. I think the M60 is ideal for most medium to large room.
If you don't think the M22ti is crisp or detail enough(unlikely) in the higher frequency region, then skip the M60 and go straight to M80, it sports TWO tweeters and more woofers. From what I've read the M80 is the beast and require more room to stretch its muscle, and more picky to position. Be prepare to power them with a decent amp capable of 4ohm. Give the M22ti a try, and I'm sure you'll be hooked!! The Axiom folks are a pleasure to deal with and the customer service they provide is second to none.

Hey BuddTx
Didnt I meet you on another message board? I thought we had found someone near you that would give you an audition.?

Anyway.... I'm running M60s in 17x30 room (with a half wall 3/4of the way back) with vaulted ceilings, and they play very loud and very clean.
I cant imagine needing more speaker.

I have the M80’s in a similarly sized room. I use them for stereo only. The room is 26’ X 32’ with vaulted ceilings about 22’ high. I’m driving them with a H/K 7200 that’s rated at 100 X 7, all channels driven. I read somewhere a while back that this AVR actually puts out closer to 145 watts. I wanted the M80’s because I like lots of base and the M80’s were supposed to have the most base in the Axiom line. I also looked at other speakers including B&W and Paradigm, but the M80’s got my vote. My receiver goes from -80 db to +80 db. I can not crank it past 0. They are simply way too loud. FYI, I’m a bachelor and the only reason for me to not crank up the tunes, is certain imminent hearing loss. These things can play incredibly loud with unbelievable clarity. They could fill a gymnasium, and sound very good with relative ease. That being said, I didn’t need them for volume, and neither do you. I suspect that the M60’s would be too loud for my application too. Do not buy the M80’s because you think you might need the volume, you will NEVER play them to their full current carrying capacity. Not unless you are already legally deaf. They have twice as much woofer surface area, so in theory, they should have more base than the M60’s, but I’m no expert and can only speculate. I did end up buying an Outlaw subwoofer to fill in the low range a tad. I’m still not sure if I like it or not. I have it set to the minimum X-over at 40 and about mid way with the volume. Some CD’s it’s simply too much thump, some older classical rock CD’s, I turn it up to around 80. I’m still experimenting.

To summarize all this babbling, if you insist on getting the M80’s, get a receiver that will drive them. Axiom will only recommend H/K, Denon or NAD to drive them. I was told to look for 100 watts minimum in either of these three brands, or go with real high end stuff with a much higher price tag. But if you plan on buying a sub, then I would stick with the M60’s.

As far as sound, I personally think the M80’s sound is more akin to the Paradigm Studio Ref III 100’s than the 703’s. Possibly somewhere in between the two. Not as much low end as the 100’s and a tad more detailed, but not as detailed with a little more base than the 703’s. Better, tighter mids than both. How’s that for comparison?

Sorry if I gave you guys the wrong impression. I love my M60s. I've had them for two years and still dig 'em, but I guess I do have a mild case of upgradeitis at the moment. I'm only speculating that the M80s will sound better at super-high volumes.

Upgradeitis????? Whats that??
jokeing of course
I now own 4 recievers, 3 subs and 10 different speakers (besides the subs)

Budd, my thought on your question about your 1014 driving M80s is to remember that it has the THX Select certification. Although many poo-poo this as a mere marketing tool and grossly over-estimate the cost($5 or so per unit is my understanding), it includes driving a 3.6 ohm load and is useful as an assurance of amplifier capability. It's likely that your 1014 would be fine with M80s.

The cost is based on a per unit basis and goes down the more units said manufacture agrees to produce. If you want to carry the THX mark on a handful of pieces, it's far more then 5 bucks. On top of that you then pay for what level of certification you are claiming...................claiming being the key word! My Denon 3805 is a great example. It's reported power per the THX standard and it's actual power are to different animals all together. It started out as a great idea but now it's not much more then a cash grab.

I guess my thoughts are if it's so great and so stringent a standard how come more and more equipment is carrying the logo that shouldn't be?

Secrets of Home Theater & HIFI has long been on THX's back over the apparent ease at getting stuff certified.

AhHa, that is some new and useful info.

Hi BuddTX,

Yep, more drivers in the M80 do let it play at incredibly high sound levels in big rooms. But never generalize about personal preferences in volume levels. Big rooms with vaulted ceilings suck up hundreds of watts. During some listening tests of Axiom's new EP600 DSP subwoofer, a colleague of mine cranked up five 250-watt per channel monoblocs and the two power amps driving the M80s, each with 250 watts, shut down because they were clipping. I had to leave the room it was so loud, but my colleague loved it (until the amps shut down!).

Don't even think about putting M22ti's into a big room. Tonally, they are very close to the M80s and M60s in the mids and highs, but like any compact speaker they have limits in output level. In an average room (about 20 x 14 x 8), the M22ti's will play as loud as I ever want (with a sub). That translates to listening to classical, jazz, some rock, opera etc. at about 85 dB SPL (C weighting), sitting about 10 feet back, which subjectively is termed "quite loud," with occasional dynamic peaks to 98 dB SPL (very loud).

If I switch to the M80s, and want louder for test purposes, the M80s will do it and still sound very clean to way past 100 dB SPL, even in big rooms.

In stereo only, the larger enclosure of the M80s does result in slightly deeper bass and more output than the M60s. If you are running a sub with them, these differences become very small, only audible with immediate A/B comparisons, and even then I find my preferences change with program material.

Do not assume your Pioneer will drive a 4-ohm load at full output. If it has a 4-ohm switch or a menu setting for 4-ohms, it likely won't, THX certification notwithstanding. My recommendation of Denon, H/K and NAD is based on customer (and personal) experience with the M80s and these brands of A/V receivers, as well as with other brands that I do not recommend for the 4-ohm M80s.

Regards,

Hey Buddtx. You got your answer straight from the horses.....er... mouth. Now order some axioms and enjoy

Bigwill...you've GOT to post the full size version of that avatar for us.

Ahh, spiff, you're making me blush.

Just get properties on the image and copy the URL to a new window. I'll leave the linking to BigWill.

Ahhh!

Thanks to everyone's posts, I am at a much clearer level of confusion now!

Seriously though, thanks for all the comments.

Lots to read and digest.

I feel like, now, whatever decision I make, I will at least make an informed decision.

It sounds like, at least for me, the M22's are out of the running, at least in the living room. (But, I have been reasonably happy with my bookshelf B&W 202's with speaker stands, for over ten years . . .)

The M60's would be a perfect high end match for my receiver (and almost any other receiver). Buy it, install them, and start enjoying the music. If you are still woried about ultra low end, get a sub woofer (or Jenifer Lopez . . . bad joke!)

The M80's might work, and they might need another amp source. Luckily, the Pioneer 1014 has the THX certification, and as JohnK points out, the THX certification requires the amp to drive a 3.6 ohm load.

And, as Alan and others have noted, that past, real world experience shows, that H/K Denon and NAD can drive the M80's, other brands have not had good past experience.

So, if I choose the M80's, at least I am making an informed choice, and I realise that I might need to call in Scotty. (As in Scotty, I NEED MORE POWER!!!)

So it sounds like, intelectually, the best decision would be the M60's.

BUT MENTALLY, I will always be wondering, what if I choose the M80's instead . . .

It is funny actually that I have this delema, because, in the past, I have heard some FANTASTIC sounding, two way speakers.

I have been trying to post this for about a day, and I keep on flip flopping in my mind (No Kerry jokes!).

M60 is better for my system, as it is right now, M80's might bring a whole other dimention into my listening, but I will (I MEAN MAY) have to get a seperate amp if the Pioneer is not up to snuff, and even if it is, a seperate amp would be better for the whole system.

I still do not have a clear understanding about the M80's at LOW listening levels. How do they sound at low or "still hear the phone ring" levels?

Now to address some specifics . . .
BigWill
I am the kind of guy that will go to Wal-mart, K-mart, Sams, and Target, then check the internet, before making a 50 dollar purchase. BUT, When I realized that I use my speakers ALMOST EVERY DAY, year in, and year out, 300 bucks more IS a worthwile investment to me, considering that my last set of speakers cost 400 bucks, and lasted me over ten years, and I used them ALMOST every day.

Spiffnme
Thanks for the alternate opinion as to "M60's starting to strain" comment that BigWill made. Nice Amps that you recommended. Remember when all amps were two channel!

tomtuttle . . .
"I deeply resent the insinuation that the beautiful vinyl on my M60's was not hand rubbed by virgin nymphs at midnight."
Well, maybe not at the factory, but who knows what happens at your place . . . (grin!)
Yea, I am leaning towards the M80's. I just picture the boxes getting delivered, and setting up these "mini buildings" in my Living room, and then starting to think, My Gawd, people could live in there! But, then again, they are within a couple of inches to the M60's so no big deal.

Bray,
Yes, we talked on Audioholics or AVS. You recommended listening. I got a feeling I am going to like whatever I decide. My options are either another internet direct company (and I can't hear them either!) or a B&M company, where I will get much less for my hard earned dollar.

Alan,
Thanks for the detailed reply. About the Pioneer 1014 and the 4 ohm load. I will make an educated purchase, should I pick the M80's, and if the Pioneer does not hold up (even with the THX cert), I knew that going in, and will not blame the speakers, I will have to get another amp. I think a high end stereo amp is on my mind anyway, so that I get the clarity and crispness that I want (not to blast the neighbors, but for the accuracy!)

Sound thinking.

Sounds like what you need is a pair of M80ti's and that Odyssey Stratos amp. You'll never leave your living room again.

Bigwill, I think it's safe to say you'r the only guy I've ever seen that could wear that hat, while holding a little baby and still look mean and scary. Wow.

Yeah, he scares the crap out of me. Good thing I'm far away...

Go for the M80's you won't be sorry.I vote for the Rotel amp though,if need be.

Budd relax; a "high-end stereo amp" has no more "accuracy" than what you have now. Its frequency response is audibly flat and its noise and distortion are inaudible. You can't do any better than that unless a 4 ohm load gives problems or in the unlikely situation that more power is needed.

>>It sounds like, at least for me, the M22's are out of the running, at least in the living room. (But, I have been reasonably happy with my bookshelf B&W 202's with speaker stands, for over ten years . . .)

Hmmm. We don't want to push you too high in the speaker lineup either. As far as I know the M22s are not out of line with other good bookshelf speakers in terms of sensitivity, power handling and resulting SPL -- just that most people end up wanting to play a bit louder than bookshelf speakers can normally deliver in that sized room. Are the 202s already in your great room, or are you using them in a smaller room today ?

My M2s sound great in a 13x23 room as long as I stick with moderate sound levels, but I can't turn the volume up as high as I would like "sometimes". M60s on the other hand will play quite a bit more loudly than I would ever want, ie I have lots of headroom at normal listening volumes.

If you always listen at "normal" volumes (it happens -- family, neighbors, ears that haven't been killed by years of loud music) then M22s might be OK and M60s would definitely be OK... unless you are planning to change your listening habits as a result of the new speakers.

If you are happy with the 202s from an SPL point of view and are open to adding a sub in the future (if you play DVDs then you're gonna want a sub anyways) then I'm not sure M80s are worth the extra cost and effort. People sure do like 'em, though

Just for the record, I didn't say that the M60s "start to strain", but that at super high volumes, when listening to music, they can get a little "hard" sounding. Crystal clear - no distortion at all, but "hard".?

I'm aware that I can be scary looking. That's why I've worked so hard at developing my warm and congenial personality.

Well, I guess I can chime in here.

We recently purchased the M60ti's (as well as the VP150 and the QS8's). These are connected to a Crown XLS 402a pro power amp being fed from a HK 7200 (boy does this unit generate some heat!!!).

FWIW, I get insane readings (with HK at -10 and crown cranked full open, nominal 90 with peaks of ~102) of SPL in our 7200 cubic foot area (60x8x15) from the listening position which is 12 feet from the M60's. I also have a SVS 20-39 PCi for the sub-woofer duties. The speakers are set to full range on the H/K with the sub doing L/R bass management. This is with no surround processing...two channel stereo.

My wife complains about the loudness level...that's at least when I can hear her complain. Other times she just gives me "the look", and if you're married you know what I'm talking about.

My honest opinion:

At first I thought the m60's sounded shrill. The "S" sound would be more sibilant than what I was used to (JBL Studio series). So I waited and let my ears and the M60's "break in".

Suffice it to say they sound much better to me now. It took about 3 months but I am very happy and am also pumping out 260 WPC into them from the Crown.

I do have a question though...anyone think I should push the H/K to 0 db reading on the dial? Should I try and crack the glass on the 75 gallon fish tank or on the panny plasma?

>>Budd relax; a "high-end stereo amp" has no more "accuracy" than what you have now. Its frequency response is audibly flat and its noise and distortion are inaudible. You can't do any better than that unless a 4 ohm load gives problems or in the unlikely situation that more power is needed.<<

Wow. Thanks. So what you are saying, is that if my Pioneer 1014 handles the M80's without a problem, I will not achieve some "audiophile nirvina" if I were to go to a more powerful amp.

Very enlightening.

I had always thought that these ultra high end, very powerful amps, were, not to necessaraly play music loud, but to bring a clarity and realism to music at normal listening levels.

Never knew this a gospel, just assumed it.

"I do have a question though...anyone think I should push the H/K to 0 db reading on the dial? Should I try and crack the glass on the 75 gallon fish tank or on the panny plasma?"

Are you kidding? Of course you should. Personally, I don't think it will do it. Plus, you're too chicken.

Bwack bawk bawk bawk........
Bwack bawk bawk bawk bawk!!!!!

Hey Bud,

The M80's sound quite nice at lower volumes. The only problem is that you will constantly be bumping them up because they sound soooooooo good at higher levels. When I'm alone, I can't hear the phone. Sometimes I'll just plop down in front of them with a beer and just listen till my ears hurt. Then get back up and do whatever task I was doing prior to the distraction. This is quite unusual for me seeing how I'm a definite ADD type person.

Rick,

I have the 7200 as well. I've seriously been toying with running a Crown through the pre outs. Did you notice any difference with it vrs straight off the 7200? Do you have any type of treble / bass controls with the Crown? I have my M80's running through the Zone II and have no bass/treble control.

Maybe the one to ask about the Crown amp would be Bren,he is the pro when it comes to useing this type of gear.

My turn to help someone out!

There is like a thousand post plus thread at AVS Forums about using the Crown 402 and other pro amps:

New amp is making me grin from ear to ear

thanks Bud. That is the post the sparked my curiosity. I gave up keeping up on it and was hoping to speak with someone on this board that had some real world experience.

From what I've heard, from many folks running the M80's, is that they really shine when you pump more current to them. Not necessarily meaning that they sound louder, but fuller, if that makes sense.

I've used a bunch of Crown equipment, but since it's in an arena environment, it's all been in 70v bridged mono mode.

If you can find pro audio equipment that suits your needs and don't mind rack-mounting it and possibly dealing with the extra noise of cooling fans - and can READ THE INSTRUCTIONS! go for it.

They're not plug and go, but if you have some basic electrical knowledge... it's a good alternative.

Bren R.

Well, I did it and cranked the HK upto 0 db...100 nominal with 106 peaks...from ~12 feet away (Alison Krauss and Union Station). This is through M60's and an SVS 20-39 PCi. Sounds real, real good no harshness/distortion. This is also with the resistors installed on the tweeters.

Also happy to report the fish tank is still holding water.

Regarding the Crown. Setting it up really is not that difficult. It will be an unbalanced signal from your HK as you need an RCA to XLR interconnect for both left and right mains. The stock fans, OTOH, are loud and whinney (measured them at ~75db from ~1" (inch) away). I modded that by installing a resistor. Now they don't measure at all on the RS analog SPL. I wouldn't even know if they were on if it wasn't for the airflow that you can feel.

For HT the C/SL/SR are up +3db per the SPL meter at the listening position with the mains at 0. The Crown is rated at 260 WPC into 8 ohms...not sure on a 6 ohm load, for four ohms its WPC is 400. http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/135168.pdf

There are no treble/bass controls on the crown, just power.

Here are the features:
Features
# Selectable high-pass filter on each channel enables amplifier to work more efficiently when full band-width is not required.
# Pair of linear optocoupler clip limiters protects loudspeakers from being overdriven
# Housed in a rugged, all-steel 2U chassis.
# Efficient forced-air fan prevents excessive thermal buildup.
# Electronically balanced XLR inputs and touch-proof binding post outputs.
# Precision detented level controls, power switch, and four LEDs, which indicate clip for each channel, power and fault conditions.
# Three-Year, No-Fault, Fully Transferable Warranty completely protects your investment and guarantees its specifications.

This is how I have mine setup:
HK 7200 pre-R/L to the crown cranked wide open on the gains.
C/SR/SL are running off the HK directly. Sub via preout from HK. I listen to only two channel stereo...no DSP thanks.

I have Zone II setup for the deck speakers, POS KLH, but hey it's background music and they cost ~$80 for the pair.

FWIW, I have been a participant of the AVS thread linked here (rmcgirr83) and also FWIW, am a moderator on the Plasma/LCD forum.

I like the Crown and am seriously considering its smaller brother the 202 for the center. Need to setup up the ART EQ for the sub first. Anyone use the Rives disk for that?

Thanks!

So, did you notice a difference is sound quality over running directly off the 7200? I'm not too concerned with the fan noise, the amp will be upstairs with the AVR, while the speakers are downstairs.

Dam, I'm almost scared to try this. I can't get the 7200 to 0 with my M80's now. I tried standing outside the house and bumping up the remote, but I think some of my neighbors thought I was a burglar, so I stopped. Plus, it was getting really loud and rattling things on the deck.

I have just bought the m60's and am VERY happy with the clarity and how "clean" the sound is at high volumes.

I use a denon 4802r to power them, and have some issues with it clipping out. ( wrinkles I'll have to iron out)

I'm very happy with my m60's, and my other axiom products.

Qs8's, vp100 and ep175

I don't think you'd have a problem with either decision

good luck

Guess what I did last night!

I ordered 5 speakers from the Factory Outlet! Only took me a little longer than a year!

I want to thank everyone for their posts!

Here is what I bought:
2 M60 Light Maple (Warm Tan Grille)
1 VP150 Light Maple (BLACK Grille)
2 QS8 Light Maple (Warm Tan Grille)

No sub-woofer yet, that will come later.

I esp want to thank everyone (including Axiom!) about their honest opinions about the M80 vs the M60. I feel that the M60 is a better match for my Pioneer VXS-1015 receiver.

I really thought that I would never be able to afford "start of the art" audio. I am soo excited.

I am also "DOWNSIZING" from a 7.1 to a 5.1 channel setup. Those two back channels have no discrete audio info, and the wiring seems to get in the way.

I can also use the extra two channels on my 1015 to give more power to my M60's. I think there is a way to do that?

Any thoughts?

I don't believe that's possible. If you don't use those extra two channels, they go unused. No harm there AT ALL, so don't worry about it.

Congrats on your purchase! Be sure to let us know what you think when they arrive. Have you already bought your Radio Shack SPL meter?

This comes up from time to time... I think you can sort-of-bi-amp the M60s but without an active crossover you aren't really going to get much difference.

My recollection was that Pioneer supplies the amp capability for the same reason that Axiom supplies the double pair of speaker terminals -- a few people really value the capability and won't buy a product that doesn't have it.

Another vote for "fugeddaboutit" (wiring the 1015 to get more power to the mains). The big deal IMO is having some extra power supply capacity so the P/S rails don't droop so much when everything is rocking.

Congrats on the new system. I think you're going to be really happy.

Budd, your due deliberation before ordering is commendable and you'll certainly enjoy your system after the long wait.

Ditto to John B. on the biamping possibility with the 1015. You can't get more power to the mains by doing this; there's only one power supply section in the 1015 and sending it through two rather than one amp channel can't increase the capacity. One channel can't "borrow" from the other, so the power to each section of the speaker is the same, not doubled. As far as a use for the back surround channels, keep in mind that although there's no 7.1 format(6 discrete channels is the most)processing such as DPLIIx can steer surround material from 2 or 5 channel sources back to those speakers, where it belongs.

My 5 Speaker system is ON ITS WAY!!!

2 M60
1 VP150
2 QS8

A lifetime dream, realized!

A "STATE OF THE ART" or "REFERENCE" speaker system (or DARN CLOSE TO IT!)

It will be driven by a Pioneer VSX-1015.

Next year, a better tv!