Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Need advice, disappointed w/M22's, VP150

I've been helpng my neighbor choose a system for his newly remodeled living room. I brought him to a few local places to listen to speakers, and out of the brands we listened to, he really liked the Paradigm Studio 40's, but can't afford them. After reading the great reviews for Axiom, and the fact that the Mansfield veneer is a great match for his new room, he pulled the trigger and bought M22's, VP150 and the QS8's. We hooked them up to a Yamaha HTR-5590, no sub as he's still deciding what he wants. His room is very large, 20'w x 25'D and the ceiling slopes from 9' up to 18'. It's open to the kitchen in the back, and a dining room in the back corner as well. Listening position is about 15' from the speakers and there's a rug over the hardwood floor.

To put it simply, the system doesn't sound "alive." It sounds kind of hollow and muted to both of us, both with music and movies. There's no life to it. His wife commented that they sounded like "boom box speakers." I wouldn't go that far, but honestly both of us feel like they should sound much better. He has a pair of large, no name speakers as well, so I hooked them up to compare, they had more bass, less clarity, but taking away the low end response there was not a dramatic difference like there should be.

I decided to bring my receiver over, a Pioneer VSX 811 to see if maybe the receiver was the problem. It sounded different, but not really better or worse. So I brought over my sub, a SVS 25-31CS+ along with my trusty Adcom 555II to power the sub bridged. Well, it definitely helped, especially with all speakers set to small, but still it doesn't sound right. The only way I was able to acheive reasonable results was to us my Pioneer as pre, and power the M22's full range with the Adcom. Then we noticed a difference, the overall response was far better, though still a bit short of expectations. Perhaps some of it is us expecting too much, I'm not sure. I know the M22's are small for the room, but budget constraints are why he got them over the M60's. One note, the QS8's sound very good, but then that's surround duty so it's hard to evaluate them on the same level.

What else can we try? I've tried adjusting a number of settings on the receiver, along with listening in different positions and heights relative to them to no avail. There's not a lot of space to move them around because of furniture and even still I don't think it would open up the sound THAT much. At this point, what options are there? Is it the receiver, or maybe he just has to get the M60's? Any advice would be helpful as I'd hate for him to have to ship them back.....

Thanks,
Kevin

That's a pretty BIG room with a lot of cubic feet of air. I'd have gone with the 60s or 80s.

First mistake was getting the M22's. If your buddy likes the Paradigm 40's, he should really look at the M50's from Axiom. I have had both and they are close to each other. The M22's sound nothing at all like the Paradigms. If he can swing the cash, he may want to try the M60's but I have never heard them so I can't be much help on that end.......One thing I can say is that I have had the M80's from Axiom and they don't sound like the Paradigm 40's either!

I would also agree thats an awful big room for the 22s.That being said the 22s,60s and 80s are said to have the same sonic signature.So as Neverhappy said if the Paradigm 40s is the sound he likes maybe the M50s would have been a better choice.

Way to much room for a bookshelf speaker.

Yep, that is an awfully big space to expect the M22s to fill especially when you throw in the kitchen and dining room.

I presume that you guys calibrated the system and checked for reversed speaker wires.

You could try shrinking the listening bubble by moving all speakers closer (about 10' or less) to the listening position to create a more near field listening situation.

He's gonna need one big ass sub for that space one of these days.

In reply to:

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He's gonna need one big ass sub for that space one of these days.

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Thats for sure.

First off, check your speaker wires to insure that + is going to + and - is going to -.

To test the idea that the M22's are not the best why not try moving the system into another, smaller room so that you can get the feel for the Axiom speakers. It may be a hard pill to swallow for your friend when we all say move to the M50, M60's or M80's if he thinks the Axiom brand may not be for him. Move the system into a guest room and test out the set up. I do know that the M22's are a little more forward then the M60's (I have both) so if he is looking for more bass and "room filling sound" that may be the way to go. If the M2's are still in the 30 day trial, return them for the M50's or what I recomend to my friends the M60's.

In a room that size you will need a good sub. Take a look at:

SVS
HSU
Outlaw Audio

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

Thanks for the fast responses!! A couple of notes. While he did like the Studio 40's, he wasn't 100% sold on them and I don't think he, (or myself for that matter) expected a duplicate of the 40's. We did expect a bit more of them M22's. That said, I agree that the m22's are overmatched in the room, and my first thought after wondering if maybe there was a wiring issue (and I told you so, because I told him to get the M60's) was that the hollow sound might be due to two things: the need for larger speakers to fill the space and the acoustics of the room. The room does seem to have an empty sound to it, not quite an echo thanks to the furniture, but I think that might be part of the problem. Maybe he needs to put more stuff in it, lol. Basically, from what you're saying the M60s sound similar but more laid back, which sounds like it would be a good thing

I know there have been different threads about receivers and separates. Do you feel that perhaps that's an aspect as well, and perhaps a newer receiver might make a difference? I just know that the M22's did sound far better full range with 200watts from my Adcom than with the 5590. Speaking of subs, you're right he could really use a big sub. Right now, again because of his budget, tops he can spend is 1k which will probably mean a pb12isd/2. Maybe he can stack another one on top of it in the future. My CS+ actually does a good job moving air, so the room is bass friendly for the size, at least


I'll be over there tonight to do some movie watching and more calibrating so I'll report back. I haven't ordered avia yet, so I'll have to wing it with some test tones and my rat shack spl meter. I'll try them in my small room too and see how they sound that way....

Kevin

If his budget is $1K for a sub he can get some nice ones, the new Axiom EP500 being one of them.

Or try a HSU VTF3.
I have one in a simular room, and it FLAT OUT ROCKS!!!!

I second the Hsu recommendation.Hell of a sub for the money.

My listening room including the kitchen beside it since open concept is 27 x 16 with an area where the speakers are that is open to the second floor which is 17 feet. The M22 is kinda small for that area. I used to have M22's. I upgraded to a floor stander. If you can not return the M22 then MWC has the best suggestion in that make the listening area smaller. Bring the M22 closer to the seating. Get a big sub like HSU VTF3. Thats what I got. It definitely fills the space and then some.

I agree with everyone else who said the M22's are too small for the room. I'm not sure what the angle of the slope is, but off the top of my head, the room is roughly 6000-7000 cubic ft. I doubt the M22's were designed for rooms larger than 2500 honestly, but I could be wrong. If your friend decides to stick with Axiom, I think the M60's would be his best bet. It would work well with the existing receiver, since it is an 8ohm speaker, and is meant for larger rooms. The M80's could also work, but he would be using his receiver to drive two 4ohm loads (unless he decided to get an external amp) and that would put considerable strain on the Yammie.

As much as I hate to sound like a broken record...the M22's are simply too small for a room that size.

I too suggest putting them in a smaller room, to see if it's the "Axiom sound" he dislikes, or if it's only the fact that you're asking too much of the M22's in that particular room. If you move them into a smaller room, and like the sound, trade them in for the M60's or maybe even the M80's. That's a damn big room.

If it were my decision to make I'd return the M22's and put my subwoofer budget into a pair of M80ti's.

He can always enjoy the M80's without a sub, but he can't enjoy a great sub without great speakers.

Of course if he moves the M22's into a smaller room, and still hates them, send them back, and keep searching for some new speakers.

kibe, M22's are definitely too small.

I would totally agree with Spiffnme on this one.

This is a seriously HUGE room by any account and needs a large speaker to fill it. Although the M60's will play very loud and cleanly this is the kind of room the M80's were designed for. The M60's are for medium to large rooms and I think in this room even the M60's will be approaching their upper limit. I'd definitely want some reserve power for that room and I don't think the M60's will have it. Your neighbours room is Xtra Large and that's why I'd say go for the M80's. If you're neighbour can't have both the M80's and a sub then just put off the sub for a while. My reckonig is get the M80's no question. Then when his budget allows get a big ass sub. He doesn't want to be dissapointed again. The M80's do very well in the base department and should be satisfying enough for your neighbour until he can get a sub.

I'd also suggest talking with the folks at Axiom, they should definitely beable to tell you if the M60's are even worth considering.

Good Luck, Jag

I agree with Jag and Spiffnme on this one. I did not think about going the M80 route without the sub. Going that route will give him a great system from the start and when he has the $$ he can go with a kick A@@ sub. The 80's would do a great job for him. You may want to see if there is someone in your area that has the M80's to get a listen.

Unfortunately I didn't get the chance to listen last night so I can't give feedback just yet. He just got them this past Wed. so there's plenty of time to test out the setup in a smaller room. I hadn't thought about skipping the sub for now to go for better mains, that's a very good idea. What are the differences between the M60 and the M80's? Also, since the M80's are a 4ohm load, would a different receiver be better? The Yammie isn't his yet, it's actually mine and I was going to sell it to him for cheap IF it matches well with the Axioms. That way he could spend more money on the speakers instead of having to worry about a receiver budget as well. Without the sub, that might free up enough $$ for him to get a different reciever that could drive the M80's instead...

Kevin

I'll have to fall in line with the rest on recommending the M60s over the M22s. I purchased both for comparison purposes. In my living room (maybe 16X18), the M22s w/ a sub could still not match the M60s sound. Then, after recently completing my basement theater (mostly), which is longer but much narrower, I tried the same setup out and the M22s still couldn't match the 60s. The 22s are a wonderfully detailed bookshelf speaker. If I had a better sub, they might have been able to do better (who knows). But, in my opinion, you just can't stack them up against the M60s. In every case, I had my wife doing the listening tests with me and she agreed fully, which is an honest opinion, since she REALLY didn't like paying so much for the 60s. If she had a chance, the 60s would have been boxed up and posted on Ebay, but she just didn't get what she wanted from the 22s.

Good Luck

I have not heard the M80's but I am sure someone here that does will chim in. On Monday I would call Axiom Support to get their thoughts. There is nothing like the words oming out of the horses mouth.

I took a quick look at the Axiom page for floorstanding speakers. Their recommendations were pretty clear :

- under 2400 ft3 bookshelf is OK
- over 2400 you want floorstanding; larger room -> bigger speaker
- M60 OK up to about 4000 ft3
- M80 recommended for >4000 ft3
- M80 plus 150-250w recommended for >6000 ft3

I think the room you're talking about falls into the >6000 ft3 category. Axiom's recommendations are obviously aimed at "filling the entire room with sound" and could be toned down a bit if you are OK with lower volumes or "filling part of the room", but at first glance that looks like an M80 room to me, M60s at absolute minimum.

Right now I am running M2s in the HT system and M60s in the main stereo system upstairs. The place I'm moving to in the spring has a 16x23 living room with high ceiling open to dining area and loft -- I figure the M60s will be the absolute minimum for that area whereas the M2s are just fine in the current area (one end of a low-ceilinged 13x23 room)... and the only reason I feel 100% comfortable with the M60s is that I don't really need to fill the entire space with sound, near-field listening will be fine.

M80 without sub really does sound like the right first step. Good luck, sounds like this is going to be fun !!

>>What are the differences between the M60 and the M80's? Also, since the M80's are a 4ohm load, would a different receiver be better?

From a quick look at the specs page :

- M80 sensitivity is 2db higher, ie a bit more sound from the same amount of power

- M80 is 4 ohm, ie the same amp will put more power into the speaker at the same volume control setting because the 4 ohm speaker draws higher current for the same voltage. The dark side of this is that if your amp can't DRIVE the higher current then you might overheat or go into current limiting / shutdown

- low bass goes a few hz deeper on the M80 vs. M60

Bottom line is that the M80 is a bit bigger than M60 with all the benefits and drawbacks you would expect -- a bit deeper bass, a bit higher sound output, a bit more effort finding the right placement because of the deeper bass. Being 4 ohm it can also suck more power (= more sound) out of any given amp unless the amp can't handle it.

From a quick skim of HK, Denon and NAD receiver specs (630 vs. 2805 vs. 752, just happened to be what I had on the PC) the main difference between 4 and 8 ohsm seems to be "dynamic power", ie ability to handle the peaks without clipping. Reading between the lines the 4 ohm impedence can be used to get more headroom and avoid clipping but if you suck more power out of the amp on a continuous basis you will still overheat. That doesn't seem like a problem, however, since the extra headroom is what you are looking for IMO.