Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Adding a pre-amp to an AVR

No amp-ins. Would it work using the standard inputs?

Yeap. It would just possibly introduce some additional noise due to two pre-amp stages being used. Does your receiver have a 6-channel input or Direct Stereo mode? If so enable them (use 6-channel input only if no Direct Stereo mode is available) so that no processing is done on the signal to minimize the effects of your receiver's preamp.

Finding the 'correct' volume setting for your receiver while using an external pre-amp might be a chore, but it would be a more budget-friendly way to determine if you do indeed like the 'tube sound.' Then if you do, you can purchase a solid state power amp for the tube pre-amp at a later date.

rebel,
Now if you want to experience a tube preamp one of the cheapest ways is to go to audiogon.com and look for a Bottlehead (foreplay) this is a preamp that you can purchase usually for about $200.00 used or buy a kit to build for the same price. I did this! I have my forepay connected to my Marantz MM9000 power amp. that I had just sitting around this is hooked up to a set of Axiom M3ti speakers in my computer room and I just love the experience. If you decide you don't like the Tube Setup you can resell the Preamp on audiogon and loose nothing but your time. TRY IT YOU MIGHT LIKE IT, I DO.. I also love all my SS stuff.

I like amps, dunno why. I'm redecorating. That means new amps and shuffling around the rest. I just picked up 2 more Yamaha M80s to go with the one I already have. I think I'll get an Outlaw Monoblock for the center channel and sell my Anthem PVA5 (if the Yammies sound as good or better).

My second HT system will have a brute of an Onkyo M504 with big power meters on the face, and a pair of Onkyo M282 for a 5.2 channel system.

Perhaps my best sounding solid state system is my upgraded garage system - motivated by a slightly tweaked Kenwood KA9100 silver faced beauty driving a pair of modified Dahlquist DQM905s.

I have nothing against solid state amps, I have 'em coming out of my ears.

That having been said, my favorite system for music is still driven by a 5 watt per channel (in Single End Triode mode) integrated Antique Sound Labs MG S1 15DT. Sorry if some are tired of or have been misled by such descriptions as "liquid," "smooth," "warm," etc. I agree that these terms attempt to distinguish the quality of the music produced by at least this tube amp. What may be misleading about these terms is the expectation that we are talking about distortion or something "added" to the music.

I did a quick audition for Big Will of this tube amp playing Loreena McKennett's "Elemental." Big Will commented that he thought it sounded very much like a solid state amp. I should have played some other pieces. I have a jazz CD, I think it is one of Noel Jewekes' pieces, anyway, there's a nice double bass fiddle riff, and at one point he THWACKS the string against the fingerboard ... it'll make you jump and it sounds like you just heard it happen in the room. Now, this is not warm or liquid, but rather immediate and realistic. Yet, my tube amp recreates this musical effect, and others, better than any of my solid state driven systems.

For those who think a tube amp "adds" 'warmth' or some other distortion effect to the music, consider the possibility that solid state amps tend to remove some quality of the music.

Now, not all tube amps are the same, and neither are all solid state amps, nor are all violins the same. There are Strads and Guarneri and those made in Taiwan. Ask an accoustical engineer to explain the difference in sound between these different instruments. Think of all the different components, circuit choices, material choices that go into a solid state amp and then wonder at the proposition that all solid state amps with the same specs sound the same.

Most of my music listening is in my office using either a streaming slim server or digital cable source. The office system uses a Sony TA E9000ES (Firmware upgraded to VER 2.50), a Yamaha M80 for the front speakers and 2 Onkyo M282 2 channel amps for the rest. It sounds great. Yes, this sytem puts out more bass than my tube set up because the tube set up uses only a single Vance Dickason Titanic 10" sub and the Office system uses 2 subs, a 1640 watt Klipsch LF10 and a 15" Dahlquist. The solid state system has its "liquid" moments and is not fatiguing in any way. I'd go so far as to say, I love this system and enjoy the music it produces. But, for kicking back with a scotch and water, I have to say, that for me, it is the 5 wpc tubie.

An alternative would be to buy from a company like Decware or Quicksilver which offers a 30 day money back trial period.

I tried out Decware's ZSLA-1 preamp/attenuator this way and all it cost me was the $15.00 shipping charge to send it back.

As a side note, it turned out to be a real waste of time and $15.00 because I really didn't get to get a good feel for this product because, out of the box, it produced static in the left channel and I sent it back 3 days later for the full refund.

In reply to:

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Now, not all tube amps are the same, and neither are all solid state amps, nor are all violins the same. There are Strads and Guarneri and those made in Taiwan. Ask an accoustical engineer to explain the difference in sound between these different instruments. Think of all the different components, circuit choices, material choices that go into a solid state amp and then wonder at the proposition that all solid state amps with the same specs sound the same.

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Ay ay ay. Please tell me you didn't just use the fact that violins sound different to support your reasoning for why solid state electronics should sound different? Please? I'm begging you.

VIOLINS AND TUBE AMPS!!!!!

them there is fightin' words!!!

bigjohn

Thanks for the all insights. Personally, I did find the sound more open and less fatiguing with the tube pre-amp. Quite pleasant actually. But I also noticed that some "crispness" is lost in certain recordings, particularly live rock performances. I mean this in relative terms, i.e. vs. what you would actually hear in a live concert, for instance. This isn't necessarily unpleasant, just different.

All told, I'm quite happy with the set-up. The AVR allows me to use a sub for bass that I doubt an all tube set-up could achieve, not to mention the M22's own bass limitations. And for certain recordings, I can always opt for the AVR's pre-amp section should I prefer.

I have a question for DJ Stunna, though. The Marantz doesn't have direct stereo, so I use either the CD-R ins or the L/R ins of the 7.1 inputs (AUX2). Frankly, I didn't notice any difference. In either case, all the DSP modes and features remain functional if I choose to. But I gather the idea is to minimize the AVR's effect on the signal. Am I doing it right then?

And although I might be getting ahead, what can I expect if I get a dedicated amp to go with the pre compared to the current set-up now?

Thanks.

Rebel: I am not sure if I understood you fully... Did you try the 7.1 channel input and find that it still allowed you to enable DSP modes while in 7.1 channel input?

If this is the case (7.1 channel input DOES allow DSP modes to be activated):
I incorrectly assumed that the 6-channel input would be a way for the receiver to give you Direct Stereo without the "Direct Stereo" mode. On most receivers this would work, but yours apparently is more advanced.

If DSPs can still be activated with 6-channel input, that means that your receiver has analog to digital converters on all channels, and thus is able to do processing on the signal in the digital domain. Since that is the case, then just run it to the CD-R in. I assumed that it would not have ADCs for all channels because most receivers do not (but then again, I've never used a Marantz receiver).

If you tried 7.1-channel input and found that DSP modes CANNOT be enabled then:
I would just use the front two channels of 7.1 input since it is essentially the same as a Direct Stereo circuit because no processing can be done since the receiver doesn't have ADCs on all channels to do digital processing on the analog 7.1 channel input.

Yes, PMB, I am. Think about it. What could be more simple than a violin? a neck, a fingerboard, pegs, some pieces of wood, some strings. How many variables do you have to deal with to explain the differences in sound between 2 violins? Fewer for certain than between solid state amps which employ different capacitors, resistors, circuit designs, transformers, transistors, materials. Would you not agree that a solid state amplifier is many orders of magnitude more complicated than a violin? Now if you want to measure the output of a violin, you could say, "2x6 the strings of these violins each vibrate at the same frequency when you play a middle C, so how can you say they sound different? If you think there's a difference between a Strad and a Taiwanese violin, you've been brainwashed. Middle C is about 262 Hz, no matter which violin is producing it. We, who know it all, can accurately measure this frequency to a few parts per billion accuracy and can tell you with confidence, middle C is middle C whether you sawing on a Strad or on a knock off."