Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Looking to upgrade...

Been researching, caught the buzz on Axiom... here is my issue. I live in an 1800sq ft. loft, the main space is 25ft long by 40ft wide. with 14 ft ceilings. I have good placement of the main seating area in the center, using a HK AVR 235 with Bose 15 now with a DLP projector facing the the more shallow direction. I can't afford the Epic 80 system... so trying to put lesser package together... will hopefully add an SVS sub later. What is my realistic minimum for this kind of room? Plan to use it for both HT and rockin-out loft parties. Will I need to upgrade my receiver to drive Axioms?

My first thought would be :

Step 1 - order M80s and either VP150 or (for now) M2 center, keep everything else unchanged except tweaking the speaker levels

Step 2 - big honkin' sub (next year)

Step 3 - replace the surrounds

Step 4 - receiver

a little more staggered than I would hope, but if the M80's are the only thing that will work in a space that big then I'll consider that approach. Surely my receiver can't power M80's properly no? at only 50w per? I know HK has conservative power ratings but that much? I am already planning on addressing bass with SVS, probably a pair of 12's, so that is a separate consideration... not a fan of floor standing, will the 22's with a 150 not be enough even with the dual subs?

In simple terms, that is a lot of sg. ft. and cu. ft. To obtain the sound you want. Man I would die for that space, under 2K for what you want to hear - volume, and quality, is not realsitic, I think that's why taking steps is the suggested.

M80's it is then, just gotta wait a little longer to put it all together... I presume the QS8's and VP150 work well with the M80? Seems like a lot of horsepower focused on the L/R channels for HT? I am personally easy to please, but I still want to do it right. A little side note, everyone is stunned by the Bose 15 in this space, but I know the the drastic improvements some real drivers will make. The loft is pretty sweet, took me 6 months to find it, floor to ceiling windows facing the Puget Sound, 14ft. high restored brick walls, old timber beams, full kitchen/bathroom, etc. and with the Viaduct in front to remind you that you live in the city...

>>Seems like a lot of horsepower focused on the L/R channels for HT?

True... if it weren't for the "rockin' loft parties" there might be another upgrade sequence although I can't think of one right now. My initial post didn't include an upgraded center then I felt "mains only" might not be optimal after a few minutes and edited the post. I'm making the assumption that for loud party music you would run in "pure" stereo so the M80s would be carrying all the load.

You could go with a big sub first but I don't think that would give you as much overall enjoyment as the M80/center.

The M80s are pretty efficient so I think you will be surprised how much great sound you get out of your current receiver. I don't know if anyone on the board has actually driven M80s off a 230 but AFAIK the entire line has essentially the same high-current amplifier design so you should be fine.

You're gonna invite us all over to see the place when it's done, right? It sounds very nice!

I just want to touch upon one aspect that hasn't ben answered yet: You were concerned about the WPC of your receiver, and I don't think it will be an issue. The HK will do fine pushing the 4 ohm 80's by many accounts here and evidently, HK's ratings are pretty solid. There is not a whole lot of volume difference between 50 WPC and 100 WPC. And the M80s are your most efficient choice.

My opinion is that if you are in the same space in a few years and could move up to some serious power such as 200 WPC, you might pick up some increased "attack" on some transients when you "open 'er up" in addition to the louder overall volume.

You know, there was a post in these forums not long ago (John?) that makes me feel hesitant to recommend anything I haven't personally heard or done....(!)...but my feelings are that the receiver will do fine with the M80s, and the M80s would be your best choice in a room that big.

Let us know when the party is!

i would double check with hk i dont think that model you have goes down to 4ohm.

Uh oh. Now I'm paranoid that I gave bad advice!

I went to the HK website and wasn't finding any info in the owner's manual or the FAQ.

Anyone know if I overstepped my bounds here?

i looked on B&H website under specs becuase he was worried about 50w per and i wanted to find out for him what the wattage into 4ohms was because usually its more to try to make him feel better. but none of the sites i found gave the 4ohm rating. and on B&H it say 4ohm/8ohm swithing = no
B&H AVR SPECS

The HK will be fine pushing a 4 ohm load.

Here's lab results of the AVR-330 which is the most simmilar AVR from HK I could find results on. If the amplifier circuitry is similar to the 235 but with a little more juice. I'll let other comment, I'm no expert.

Here's a quote:

"The AVR 330 handily exceeded its rated allchannels
power with five channels driven and
was only a couple of watts shy of the 55 W x 5
spec even with all seven outputs active. When
driving multichannel 4-ohm loads with steadystate
test signals (sine tones), the receiver activated
its protection modes after about half a
second if it was asked to produce more than
about 25 watts. Single-channel performance
was unaffected, and real-world dynamic signals
presented no problem with these low-impedance
loads."

So does that mean if you use a test signals you'll put the AVR in to protection mode with a 4ohm load, but if you send it real input like a CD/DVD that it will work fine since there's obviously a much greater variance in the frequencies it reproduces?

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/assets/download/322004163324.pdf

In reply to:

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So does that mean if you use a test signals you'll put the AVR in to protection mode with a 4ohm load, but if you send it real input like a CD/DVD that it will work fine since there's obviously a much greater variance in the frequencies it reproduces?

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Sounds like it to me.When asked what recievers will handle the 4 ohm load of the M80s Alan (Axiom resident expert) always says HK,Denon and Nad.I don't recall him saying anything about specific models.

I know that Joe @ Axiom isn't a fan of "any" receiver running the 80s. It's more of a...

Seperates=80s
Receiver =60s

...kind of equation.

Though he doesn't deny that some receivers can "handle" the 80s because they're an easier than average 4 ohm load. He just doesn't recommend it to people.

My receiver actually has a switch for 4 ohms...and still I'm not sure if he'd recommend it. So it sounds like there's mixed opinions in the Axiom camp.

No one recommends the receivers with switches for 4 ohms! It actually reduces the power output, and the word I've heard from Axiom is don't do it unless your reciever is shutting down due to heat.

Thanks for all the input guys, a lot of expertise around here... since I know the upgrade path can be a bottomless pit, I am drawing the line at getting a fullblown amp set-up, but will upgrade my receiver if necessary, I think my best chance of keeping it reasonable is drop down to the 60's, the VP150, and the QS8's with an eventual reciever upgrade along with a pair of SVS PB 12's in a couple of months... maybe even add another set of 60's in the back sometime later. thoughts?

Great system. 2 thumbs up...

Here is a comment from Alan in an earlier post.

"All the Denons will drive M80s; likewise the H/Ks. They are the only brands of A/V receivers I recommend for the M80s (new NAD as well)."

I am sure that he was referring to mass market receivers, as there are several others that would perform well - Arcam, Rotel, etc

God I hate the term "mass market."

Next time you see a Denon, NAD, or Harman/Kardon at Walmart, let me know, huh?

Sorry to point it out, but it is a fact.

If the big box stores (CC, Best Buy, Futureshop, etc) carry these models - minus NAD - then they are targeting the "masses"

BTW, I hate many terms, but they exist, so I accept that not everyone has the same expectations. For example, 'high end audio", "audiophile" (when referring to pieces that I don't consider to be at that level)

Your mileage may vary......