Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater axiom m60 and onkyo NR801

Handsomely summarized Mike!

MiniRock, my initial response to your claim of excessive brightness was, and I quote: "You're going to have to back that statement up, preferably non-anecdotally." How is that different than asking you to "substantiate your comments"?

If you had said "bright" I might have let it slide, but excessively bright is a very strong criticism that implies a flawed design.

And Jack nailed it right on the head. Separating fact from opinion is one of the more difficult aspects of finding your way through the labyrinths of audio marketing. We should all strive to pass on knowledge as accurately as possible.

Many people claim certain abilities which often evaporate under scientific scrutiny.

The NRC testing clearly showed people can reliably identify speakers in carefully controlled double blind tests. There is no doubt about that.

However similar tests for amplifiers show people CANNOT reliably identify them. This has been tested many times.

At the Los Angeles AES (Audio Engineering Society) show in the late 80's over a 3 day period over 200 professional audio engineers participated in a double blind amplifier test. Everyone was confident they could easily pass it (reliably identify one amp vs another). The final results were 49/51, the same as random chance.

They also tested exotic Monster wire against solid 12ga THHN house wiring. Results were 49/50 as well.

Richard Clark, a columnist for Carsound.com will pay $10,000 if someone can reliably identify one amp vs another in a double blind test. It started as a car audio test, but has since been extended to home audio.

So far thousands of people have taken Clark's test and NOT ONE has passed it.

You can see the contest rules by searching Google on "AMPLIFIER CHALLENGE RULES". They are posted many places.

joema
Thankyou very much for a scientific reply.
If you havent posted this on any other audio forums.
PLEASE DO.

In reply to:

---

AJAX: dear ole’ Jack….you have been around here long enough to realize this happens every day or two…..people have opinions, they quote sources, drop names, make common errors in judgment. We all have our pet peeves about things, but they will happen again. Had the conversation taken an “IMO, Onkyo is brutal…” direction, would that be better? If you read the threads – and I know you do – most of what is posted is opinion! Even when reviews are quoted, we must understand that most of it is based on the reviewer’s opinion. Sometimes there are some technical details, but again, the lack of standards applied to all pieces within a realm (speakers, amps, etc) means this can be used as a marketing tool.

---

HEY! Watch the "ole" stuff!

Mike, to answer your question, Yes, IMHO It would be much better to be sure to include the IMHO, PARTICULARLY if what you saying about a piece of equipment is negative, or if there is no substantiated proof for your statement. Two reasons.

1. It's very likely that one, or many, of the people who dwell here, or visit, OWN that particular brand of equipment. I don't want anyone to feel badly about something they own. There's are ways of making the point without taking a "Brand X is crap" tack. There is a HUGE difference between saying "the excessive brightness that Onkyo is known through out the industry for," and saying "I honestly find Onkyo bright." The former requires proof; no one can argue with the latter. That's the difference between fact and opinion. You can find this one in the file under "consideration for others," and cross filed under "tact." It's pretty basic.

2. Though I may be one of those who dwell here, and understand completely that most of what is posted here is opinion and is often unsubstantiated, the newbie, who is wandering through the wilderness of audio fact and fiction, and is just looking for a ray of light to guide him/her (and Lord knows it can all be so confusing), may NOT understand that so much of this is opinion, and just may lay out a pot of money based on some idle, unsubstantiated opinion that is presented as fact. Or, as in this case, may avoid a purchase that would have worked well, and spend the pot on something that wouldn't

I don't know, maybe I take this aspect of the forum thing too seriously, but I feel strongly that we have a responsibility to the newbie. IMHO, The primary raison d'etre of any forum is to provide help to others, and I take that responsibility seriously. I know I'd feel awful if, based on something I said, somebody blew a $1000 dollars and was unhappy with their purchase.

And, if you try to hug me, I'll stand firmly, and painfully on your instep until you cry "all speaker wire sounds the same." I may be old, but I'm crafty.

In reference to your "thanks for the quote," you're welcome. Are your dues paid up in the IBOC? (International Brotherhood Of Curmudgeons)

Here I go again……

PMBUKO – nice response. My thoughts are that your line “Separating fact from opinion is one of the more difficult aspects of finding your way through the labyrinths of audio marketing. We should all strive to pass on knowledge as accurately as possible.” is on target. However, it should not be solely directed at audio marketing. As we mentioned, opinions do vary, and they can me either accepted, or rejected – depending on the delivery.

JOEMA: define “identified”. If you mean to pick the NAD out of 5 different listening sessions, that would be one thing. To ask me which I preferred out of the 5, that is a COMPLETELY different task. If a listener can hear differences, and prefers one over the rest, that is the sound they like. There is no rocket science to that. I am not sure I see the value in trying to pick a Denon from the crowd, but I sure see the value in picking the one I like best!!!

AJAX: Well stated jack…IMHO!!!! Don’t like to hug huh….how will that work at Mark’s party?!?!?!

I take the forum seriously as well. In fact one of the things I don’t get too involved in is the threads when the get WAY off topic and sometimes silly!

IBOC? I was under the impression there was an age restriction – as in a MINIMUM age requirement – of 50? If so, I have 10 years to go!!! So I qualify for the Misanthrope!!!

In regards to the whole bright/warm amp thing:
I have a hard time understanding how a solid state amp can "sound" either warm or bright.

I mean, what manufacturer in his right mind is going intentionally create an amp that causes listener fatigue?

Of all the talk of an amp having a particular sound weather it be warm or bright I've never heard from anyone (hobbyist or professional reviewer) what exactly causes this perceived phenomenon. What exactly makes an amp warm or bright? Can anyone be specific on the cause without making generalizations?

In reply to:

---

JOEMA: define “identified”.

---

They were unable to identify any difference whatsoever between two amplifiers in repeated blind tests. IOW take any two amp brands, fix all issues with DSP, volume, etc. Let the listener switch between them on his command, as much as he wants. He can listen to whatever music material he wants.

He doesn't have to identify particular sound qualities such as "bright", or "warm". His ONLY task is reliably identify ANY DIFFERENCE AT ALL that tells him which amp he's hearing, A or B. Out of of thousands of participants, nobody could do that. The challenge is still open.

Note: edited to reflect test is music only, not test tones.

In reply to:

---

AJAX: Well stated jack…IMHO!!!! Don’t like to hug huh….how will that work at Mark’s party?!?!?!

---

Thank you, sir. I like to hug, but, if you (and she) don't mind, I'll reserve my hugs for SonicFox. (I may be old, but I ain't dead...................................................or stupid )

In reply to:

---

I take the forum seriously as well. In fact one of the things I don’t get too involved in is the threads when the get WAY off topic and sometimes silly!

---

I didn't say I take the forum seriously. Who could take this bunch of loonies (myself included) seriously. I just take my perceived responsibility to others seriously. I'm sure that if someone would do a search (and if anyone does, I'll stand on THEIR instep) they would find examples of my being less than courteous, and stupidly tactless. I don't claim perfection, but I DO consider it a worthy goal.

In reply to:

---

IBOC? I was under the impression there was an age restriction – as in a MINIMUM age requirement – of 50? If so, I have 10 years to go!!! So I qualify for the Misanthrope!!!

---

No age restriction at all. According to my Webster's it's just "a surly, ill-mannered, bad-tempered person; cantankerous fellow." Cripes! By that definition, this is a forum of curmudgeons!

Can one be a misanthrope without being a curmudgeon? I know my misanthropy makes ME ill-tempered. And, as you can tell by my sig, I feel it a logical progression from once having loved the human race.

Nice to see this channel back to positive ground. This is the reason I like this forum so much. As a footnote, I spent some time awhile back looking at separate amps and whatthey would do for me, if anything. Resposne were divided bewtwwen the two camps, but there was a compelling undercurrent of why bother. I did some PMs with Alan and his counsel was (paraphrasing mode on) "OK for louder, but not much else and the money could be well spent elsewhere". When an absolute expert in the field of audio provides that kind of input, I take it seriously. I didin't want to throw gas on the fire, just share the experience.

However, I do want to make a couple of points in this mix. First, human beings tend to talk themselves into things sometimes that just aren't so, and that's OK.

More importantly, we should touch on the semantics involved here. This is an absolutely subjective area. On top of that, perceptions are formed and sensations are experienced based on individual physiology. My ears may be shaped differently, nmay be larger and me ay be cleaner than anyone else's combination of same, so sound will likley hit then differently and be assessed differently. I KNOW there is alot more hair in my ears than there used to be . All of that affects the sense of hearing.

Now let's add articulation to the mix - I say corn, you say maize. The word "bright", aside from apparently being one of the most emotional words around lately, only has absolute relevance to its user. Three of us would use the word for three different reasons. Trying to verbally describe audio is as difficult as trying to describe a color. Never gonna be consistent. This little tome explains why I try to avoid absolutes & platitudes (except for the MX-700 ) - they just aren't valid in most cases. As described above - lay out the plusses and minuses and, do some research and decide for yourself. Advice given must be tempered and advice received must be filtered. That's my story.

Mike, once again (as I did a few months back) , I must complment you on your input and ask why we don't see you on a more consistent basis. Especially since you are moving into the "Age of Being Cranky". This is a daunting journey that requires expert guidance. You might do well to purchase Jack's 37 DVD video series on the subject. He is regarded as a galactic expert in the area. (The Yoda character is actually based on Jack).