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axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74646 01/04/05 10:27 PM
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Hi Folks,

What are your thoughts on the NR801 reciever with the M60's.

Appreciate any opinions on this combo

Thanks

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74647 01/05/05 12:53 AM
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Welcome.

Forum regular bigjohn has the 701 and M60's and cannot contain his glee.

Worry not.


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Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74648 01/05/05 01:13 AM
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I agree. The NR801 is full-featured and has plenty of power to drive the efficient M60s with ease.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74649 01/05/05 06:47 AM
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Even with the excessive brightness that Onkyo is known through out the industry for, I do have to agree that it should be more than enough to "power" the M60's and provide a good listening experience. Have fun!

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74650 01/05/05 07:35 AM
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Oh, please. "excessive brightness... known throughout the industry" ??? You're going to have to back that statement up, preferably non-anecdotally.

When I auditioned the Onkyo I currently own at a hi-fi shop that also sells ridiculously expensive separates, they told me they chose to sell Onkyo receivers because they are some of the more "musical" a/v receivers available. They're in the industry. Did they miss the memo or something?

Last edited by pmbuko; 01/05/05 07:43 AM.
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74651 01/05/05 07:51 AM
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"But the salesman told me it was good!" Classic! ROTFLMAO! Of course they told you that. You think they're going to say that it sounds like s**t? Salesmen will say anything to make a sale. LOL! Thanks for that Peter; I literally laughed out loud!

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74652 01/05/05 08:06 AM
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Mr. Classic ROTFLMAO, your reply required you to make a number of assumptions:
  1. that I bought the receiver from them.
  2. that the salesperson was deceitful.
  3. that I am dim-witted and believe everything a salesperson tells me.

It just so happens that all these assumptions are false. I had gone into this particular shop on a number of occasions and I liked it because the sales staff were not pushy, were not jerks, and did not try to woo me with snake oil or steer me away from lower-priced components by telling me unsubstantiated things such as "that receiver is excessively bright." In fact, the salesperson knew I didn't even intend on buying the receiver there. I was really interested in the speakers -- Paradigm Montitor 9s -- which I did end up purchasing. It just so happened that they had the exact receiver I planned on driving them with.

You come off as exceedingly rude.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74653 01/05/05 08:21 AM
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"You come off as exceedingly rude"

I very seldom add my two cents to such posts, but I think your comment was a case of the pot calling the kettle black.


Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74654 01/05/05 08:24 AM
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Honestly, I do not care why you went there or for what; my comment regarding Onkyo stands as it is commonly known that they suffer from excessive brightness. Try not to take offense to every criticism. Keep in mind that the author of this thread wanted opinions on what he was going to purchase and no one should be attacked for giving their opinion when asked. Unbunch the panties and lighten up a bit brutha.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74655 01/05/05 08:34 AM
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In reply to:

commonly known that they suffer from excessive brightness


All I am asking of you is that you substantiate your comments. You say commonly known. By whom? And what is common? 10 people? 20 people? 5000 people?

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74656 01/05/05 08:35 AM
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Mike,

crude, yes, but rude?

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74657 01/05/05 08:55 AM
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I'm calling bulls**t! I do not believe for a second that question was your initial intention when you made your first post; however, I will answer it now that you have asked. By "commonly known" I of course mean generally well-known, and it is "generally well-known" by people in the industry (meaning: insiders, reviewers, testers, people who actually do this stuff for a living) that their receivers are BRIGHT.
In reply to:

And what is common?


Common: ordinary, universal, accepted, common place, characteristic, general, unassuming, typical, obvious, shared, mutually held.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74658 01/05/05 09:00 AM
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I agree, not really rude, more rudimentary...immature. Not that one is really any better than the other though.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74659 01/05/05 02:05 PM
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Well, regardless of who is rude or who isn't, I, like Peter, am tired of statements like "the excessive brightness that Onkyo is known through out the industry for." being presented as hard fact, rather than as a personal opinion. I suspect that is the cause of Peter's abruptness.

Posting unsubstantiated rumors, as anything other than opinion, is a little on the rude side also. I have no objection to the poster, or anyone else, believing this statement, but I do have a problem with posting it as fact without providing proof of that fact. Had the poster stated that "in his opinion, Onkyo is bright," we wouldn't be having this conversation. But, since he posted that it is "known throughout the industry," I don't think it excessive to ask him to substantiate that statement. We, after all, have an obligation to those who come here to learn (and don't we all), to stick as close to fact as possible, and be responsible for our statements, so as not to mislead anyone looking to spend their hard-earned money.

IF it is hard fact, IF this is "known throughout the industry," then the poster who made the statement should be able to post some scientific evidence, other than the opinions of others who also believe the statement, that it is, indeed, a fact.

I've heard this "Onkyo is bright" litany, on occasion, before, but have yet been presented with any graph, or other scientific proof that this is the case.

Please post PROOF, or else we'll have to assume it is just a myth being spread by the uninitiated. My mind is open.


Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74660 01/05/05 02:17 PM
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WOW, you guys need to borrow some valium from ken...

SXU- i do have the onkyo 701, which is basically the 801 without the netcard feature, and i really dig it. it has plenty of bells and whistles to satisfy any HT craving, and has MORE than enough power to push my M60's to deafening levels. in fact, as i have mentioned before, i have yet to get the volume knob to max cause it literally hurts my ears with how loud it is. as far as performance and clarity, i think it is terrific. i think the receiver does well with music and movies, and i have no issues with the "brightness" factor that has been mentioned. keep in mind, i have never heard my onkyo with any other speakers than my M60's, but i have heard other brands of receivers with different brands of speakers. i truly think that onkyo offers a product that is on par with the other receivers in the same market.(denon, yamaha, HK, etc.) in addition, now that the 802's have been released, you should be able to find the 801 at some great prices. i wouldnt be surprised if you can get it for under $500, and that a steal.

BTW- the only downside to my onkyo, is that it can run a little hot when pushed hard for extended amounts of time. it hasnt been a problem, but be aware that you will need to have it in a well ventilated area, so it can get plenty of fresh air. other than that, ROCK ON!!!

feel free to IM me if you have any specific questions you would like answered.

bigjohn


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Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74661 01/05/05 02:26 PM
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I have the onkyo tx-sr600 and bright is the last thing i would call it if anything i would say its a little laid back but i like it and it has clean performance. I like the people on this forum they are very helpful but i hate when advice is asked for and people tell you what other people say whether it be professional or consumer i think when people come here and ask those questions they want first hand experience answers. because if we listened to hearsay we would not buy axioms because they are so bright and fatiging they make your ears bleed (exageration intended).


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Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74662 01/05/05 03:11 PM
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Anyway, like I said Onkyo is known for its excessive brightness, but that doesn't necessarily mean you will experience that when you hear it. Be sure to post your thoughts if and when you get it, and good luck with the purchase.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74663 01/05/05 04:35 PM
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I know there are those on this forum that don't believe a receiver can have a signature (bright, warm, etc.). Others contend that receivers 'X,Y,&Z'are examples of warm receivers while 'A,B,&C' are examples of bright receivers. I have seen examples of this when somebody posts a question like "what is the best receiver to match with the M60's" etc.

While I am not condoning one position or the other, I will add that while I did my nearly year-long search for a receiver, I ran across the "Japanese receivers are notorious for sounding bright" comment in many forums and even in a few articles. It can be really confusing for a newcomer who is in the market for their first home theatre.

Anyway, getting to the point....For those of you that believe receivers can have their own sonic signature, what is the cause? Is it the DAC's they use that give them their bright/warm/neutral characteristic? Are there other factors as well such as the quality of transistors and other internal electronics?





Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74664 01/05/05 05:51 PM
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Yeah, what Jack said.


bibere usque ad hilaritatem
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74665 01/05/05 05:54 PM
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SXU,
From the initial responses, you can see that we are a diverse group in terms of equipment and opinions. You will need to accept that we all have different views, experiences and tastes. In terms of your choices, I would agree that you should have little trouble and enjoy your pieces.

Ok, my turn:

Minirock: I would have to agree with the sentiment that proof should be provided. There are far too many people who provide feedback on this board that do not, or can not substantiate their claims to be more than their own subjective opinion. You mention “people in the industry” then it should be easy to point to references. However, it can work the other way, as reviewers have biases as well. But regardless if we put any credibility in the source - it is generally accepted as an educated opinion backed by some level of technical detail. I must say that I will read such reviews, but do not rely or trust them to be the gospel.

PMBUKO: I believe minirock was agreeing that the piece should deliver, but had something to add. I agree with your message, but not the delivery. Maybe you meant nothing by this, but I must admit I reread the response – and to be honest other similar sounding response from you – and I was left unsure of the motive.

On your shopping experience, I once had a salesperson friend who shared the “secret guide to sales” unwritten rules of the trade, and some actual training he “endured” for a large company. The amusing part was that sales reps learn to determine the level of the purchaser, and tailor their selling techniques to deliver what it is their current purchaser will buy. It could be that you were deemed to be at the level of Paradigm and Onkyo, and the rep knows not to bother to provide anything above, or below this level of equipment.

KC MIKE : perhaps…as stated above the deliver was misguided. Pieces can have differences, and that can stem from design differences, quality of internal parts, and the aim of the product. You must also understand that everyone’s tastes, experiences and hearing ability is different.

AJAX: dear ole’ Jack….you have been around here long enough to realize this happens every day or two…..people have opinions, they quote sources, drop names, make common errors in judgment. We all have our pet peeves about things, but they will happen again. Had the conversation taken an “IMO, Onkyo is brutal…” direction, would that be better? If you read the threads – and I know you do – most of what is posted is opinion! Even when reviews are quoted, we must understand that most of it is based on the reviewer’s opinion. Sometimes there are some technical details, but again, the lack of standards applied to all pieces within a realm (speakers, amps, etc) means this can be used as a marketing tool.

SNAKEYES: good points – except that if people post first hand experience, and it is not favorable, we get the same retorts from those who disagree. If you like Onkyo and I honestly find Onkyo bright, who is correct? If it is opinion, then we both are correct.

Ok, now that I have typed more in one response than in a typical week, I will jump down off my soapbox and lead a group hug!!!! LOL


Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74666 01/05/05 06:02 PM
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Handsomely summarized Mike!

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74667 01/05/05 06:47 PM
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MiniRock, my initial response to your claim of excessive brightness was, and I quote: "You're going to have to back that statement up, preferably non-anecdotally." How is that different than asking you to "substantiate your comments"?

If you had said "bright" I might have let it slide, but excessively bright is a very strong criticism that implies a flawed design.

And Jack nailed it right on the head. Separating fact from opinion is one of the more difficult aspects of finding your way through the labyrinths of audio marketing. We should all strive to pass on knowledge as accurately as possible.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74668 01/05/05 07:55 PM
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Many people claim certain abilities which often evaporate under scientific scrutiny.

The NRC testing clearly showed people can reliably identify speakers in carefully controlled double blind tests. There is no doubt about that.

However similar tests for amplifiers show people CANNOT reliably identify them. This has been tested many times.

At the Los Angeles AES (Audio Engineering Society) show in the late 80's over a 3 day period over 200 professional audio engineers participated in a double blind amplifier test. Everyone was confident they could easily pass it (reliably identify one amp vs another). The final results were 49/51, the same as random chance.

They also tested exotic Monster wire against solid 12ga THHN house wiring. Results were 49/50 as well.

Richard Clark, a columnist for Carsound.com will pay $10,000 if someone can reliably identify one amp vs another in a double blind test. It started as a car audio test, but has since been extended to home audio.

So far thousands of people have taken Clark's test and NOT ONE has passed it.

You can see the contest rules by searching Google on "AMPLIFIER CHALLENGE RULES". They are posted many places.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74669 01/05/05 08:13 PM
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joema
Thankyou very much for a scientific reply.
If you havent posted this on any other audio forums.
PLEASE DO.


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DON'T BE A DICK.
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74670 01/05/05 08:18 PM
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In reply to:

AJAX: dear ole’ Jack….you have been around here long enough to realize this happens every day or two…..people have opinions, they quote sources, drop names, make common errors in judgment. We all have our pet peeves about things, but they will happen again. Had the conversation taken an “IMO, Onkyo is brutal…” direction, would that be better? If you read the threads – and I know you do – most of what is posted is opinion! Even when reviews are quoted, we must understand that most of it is based on the reviewer’s opinion. Sometimes there are some technical details, but again, the lack of standards applied to all pieces within a realm (speakers, amps, etc) means this can be used as a marketing tool.


HEY! Watch the "ole" stuff!

Mike, to answer your question, Yes, IMHO It would be much better to be sure to include the IMHO, PARTICULARLY if what you saying about a piece of equipment is negative, or if there is no substantiated proof for your statement. Two reasons.

1. It's very likely that one, or many, of the people who dwell here, or visit, OWN that particular brand of equipment. I don't want anyone to feel badly about something they own. There's are ways of making the point without taking a "Brand X is crap" tack. There is a HUGE difference between saying "the excessive brightness that Onkyo is known through out the industry for," and saying "I honestly find Onkyo bright." The former requires proof; no one can argue with the latter. That's the difference between fact and opinion. You can find this one in the file under "consideration for others," and cross filed under "tact." It's pretty basic.

2. Though I may be one of those who dwell here, and understand completely that most of what is posted here is opinion and is often unsubstantiated, the newbie, who is wandering through the wilderness of audio fact and fiction, and is just looking for a ray of light to guide him/her (and Lord knows it can all be so confusing), may NOT understand that so much of this is opinion, and just may lay out a pot of money based on some idle, unsubstantiated opinion that is presented as fact. Or, as in this case, may avoid a purchase that would have worked well, and spend the pot on something that wouldn't

I don't know, maybe I take this aspect of the forum thing too seriously, but I feel strongly that we have a responsibility to the newbie. IMHO, The primary raison d'etre of any forum is to provide help to others, and I take that responsibility seriously. I know I'd feel awful if, based on something I said, somebody blew a $1000 dollars and was unhappy with their purchase.

And, if you try to hug me, I'll stand firmly, and painfully on your instep until you cry "all speaker wire sounds the same." I may be old, but I'm crafty.

In reference to your "thanks for the quote," you're welcome. Are your dues paid up in the IBOC? (International Brotherhood Of Curmudgeons)



Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74671 01/05/05 08:58 PM
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Here I go again……

PMBUKO – nice response. My thoughts are that your line “Separating fact from opinion is one of the more difficult aspects of finding your way through the labyrinths of audio marketing. We should all strive to pass on knowledge as accurately as possible.” is on target. However, it should not be solely directed at audio marketing. As we mentioned, opinions do vary, and they can me either accepted, or rejected – depending on the delivery.

JOEMA: define “identified”. If you mean to pick the NAD out of 5 different listening sessions, that would be one thing. To ask me which I preferred out of the 5, that is a COMPLETELY different task. If a listener can hear differences, and prefers one over the rest, that is the sound they like. There is no rocket science to that. I am not sure I see the value in trying to pick a Denon from the crowd, but I sure see the value in picking the one I like best!!!

AJAX: Well stated jack…IMHO!!!! Don’t like to hug huh….how will that work at Mark’s party?!?!?!

I take the forum seriously as well. In fact one of the things I don’t get too involved in is the threads when the get WAY off topic and sometimes silly!

IBOC? I was under the impression there was an age restriction – as in a MINIMUM age requirement – of 50? If so, I have 10 years to go!!! So I qualify for the Misanthrope!!!


Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74672 01/05/05 09:00 PM
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In regards to the whole bright/warm amp thing:
I have a hard time understanding how a solid state amp can "sound" either warm or bright.

I mean, what manufacturer in his right mind is going intentionally create an amp that causes listener fatigue?

Of all the talk of an amp having a particular sound weather it be warm or bright I've never heard from anyone (hobbyist or professional reviewer) what exactly causes this perceived phenomenon. What exactly makes an amp warm or bright? Can anyone be specific on the cause without making generalizations?


I live the life I love and I love the life I live.
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74673 01/05/05 09:17 PM
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In reply to:

JOEMA: define “identified”.


They were unable to identify any difference whatsoever between two amplifiers in repeated blind tests. IOW take any two amp brands, fix all issues with DSP, volume, etc. Let the listener switch between them on his command, as much as he wants. He can listen to whatever music material he wants.

He doesn't have to identify particular sound qualities such as "bright", or "warm". His ONLY task is reliably identify ANY DIFFERENCE AT ALL that tells him which amp he's hearing, A or B. Out of of thousands of participants, nobody could do that. The challenge is still open.

Note: edited to reflect test is music only, not test tones.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74674 01/05/05 09:25 PM
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In reply to:

AJAX: Well stated jack…IMHO!!!! Don’t like to hug huh….how will that work at Mark’s party?!?!?!


Thank you, sir. I like to hug, but, if you (and she) don't mind, I'll reserve my hugs for SonicFox. (I may be old, but I ain't dead...................................................or stupid )

In reply to:

I take the forum seriously as well. In fact one of the things I don’t get too involved in is the threads when the get WAY off topic and sometimes silly!


I didn't say I take the forum seriously. Who could take this bunch of loonies (myself included) seriously. I just take my perceived responsibility to others seriously. I'm sure that if someone would do a search (and if anyone does, I'll stand on THEIR instep) they would find examples of my being less than courteous, and stupidly tactless. I don't claim perfection, but I DO consider it a worthy goal.

In reply to:

IBOC? I was under the impression there was an age restriction – as in a MINIMUM age requirement – of 50? If so, I have 10 years to go!!! So I qualify for the Misanthrope!!!


No age restriction at all. According to my Webster's it's just "a surly, ill-mannered, bad-tempered person; cantankerous fellow." Cripes! By that definition, this is a forum of curmudgeons!

Can one be a misanthrope without being a curmudgeon? I know my misanthropy makes ME ill-tempered. And, as you can tell by my sig, I feel it a logical progression from once having loved the human race.


Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74675 01/05/05 09:50 PM
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Nice to see this channel back to positive ground. This is the reason I like this forum so much. As a footnote, I spent some time awhile back looking at separate amps and whatthey would do for me, if anything. Resposne were divided bewtwwen the two camps, but there was a compelling undercurrent of why bother. I did some PMs with Alan and his counsel was (paraphrasing mode on) "OK for louder, but not much else and the money could be well spent elsewhere". When an absolute expert in the field of audio provides that kind of input, I take it seriously. I didin't want to throw gas on the fire, just share the experience.

However, I do want to make a couple of points in this mix. First, human beings tend to talk themselves into things sometimes that just aren't so, and that's OK.

More importantly, we should touch on the semantics involved here. This is an absolutely subjective area. On top of that, perceptions are formed and sensations are experienced based on individual physiology. My ears may be shaped differently, nmay be larger and me ay be cleaner than anyone else's combination of same, so sound will likley hit then differently and be assessed differently. I KNOW there is alot more hair in my ears than there used to be . All of that affects the sense of hearing.

Now let's add articulation to the mix - I say corn, you say maize. The word "bright", aside from apparently being one of the most emotional words around lately, only has absolute relevance to its user. Three of us would use the word for three different reasons. Trying to verbally describe audio is as difficult as trying to describe a color. Never gonna be consistent. This little tome explains why I try to avoid absolutes & platitudes (except for the MX-700 ) - they just aren't valid in most cases. As described above - lay out the plusses and minuses and, do some research and decide for yourself. Advice given must be tempered and advice received must be filtered. That's my story.

Mike, once again (as I did a few months back) , I must complment you on your input and ask why we don't see you on a more consistent basis. Especially since you are moving into the "Age of Being Cranky". This is a daunting journey that requires expert guidance. You might do well to purchase Jack's 37 DVD video series on the subject. He is regarded as a galactic expert in the area. (The Yoda character is actually based on Jack).

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74676 01/05/05 09:59 PM
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Working in the inside for over 10 years, dealing with reps, manufacturers, technicians, and those who specialize in Home Theater Design and Installation who hold the same opinion of Onkyo receivers will not make it scientific fact Pete. You are using the "scientific" approach to try and disprove the opinions of others just because a view of a product you own is unfavorable? In the end does it really matter though? You, not me, are going to be the one who decides what you like; and, if you like your Onkyo unit then that should be good enough for you regardless of what any one else says. If a thousand people believe that Onkyo produces excessively bright receivers, that doesn't make it fact. Anyone have scientific proof that Bose actually does suck? There are many MANY people at the AVS Forum who believe that Axiom speakers are overly bright; it doesn't make it fact and at the same time, there is no scientific fact that Axiom speakers aren't overly bright. Like BB said, it is all opinion.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74677 01/05/05 10:07 PM
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Joema,

this is very interesting. My question is: are the receivers being blind tested in the same price range?

Until I can do some testing myself, I wonder if a $1000 receiver sounds much better than a $200 one. I know that for guitars the answer is yes (with an IMHO qualifier).

Vu~


M60 + QS8 + SVS PB10 + Yamaha HTR-5640 + Pioneer 578a
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74678 01/05/05 10:34 PM
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haanhvu
I have a $350.00 Seagull S6 Folk that (in my opinion, my guitar instructors opinion, and at least two pro musicians opinion) sounded and played much better than the $1000.00 Martin I used to own and several other guitars including a $2000.00 Taylor and a $?.00 RainSong guitar.
Of course it sounds and plays better (IMHO) than most of the other more expensive Seagulls I've heard and or played.
I've been told that I bought a jewel.
Just fuel for the fire.


LIFE IS SHORT.
DON'T BE A DICK.
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74679 01/05/05 10:39 PM
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In reply to:

There are many MANY people at the AVS Forum who believe that Axiom speakers are overly bright; it doesn't make it fact and at the same time, there is no scientific fact that Axiom speakers aren't overly bright. Like BB said, it is all opinion.




Right, but if someone says "It's commonly known that Axioms are excessively bright," do you see how that statement is both untrue and misleading?

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74680 01/05/05 10:42 PM
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Bray,

this is scary! I have the exact same Seagull guitar, bought for the exact same price. There's something going on about me and canadian goods.

Vu~


M60 + QS8 + SVS PB10 + Yamaha HTR-5640 + Pioneer 578a
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74681 01/05/05 10:47 PM
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I've got scientific proof that Bose sucks. Have you ever seen the response curves on those things?


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74682 01/05/05 11:02 PM
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Adam: "It is commonly known that Axioms are excessively bright" refers to everyone...everywhere. I only referd to those on the "inside" in the "industry." "It is commonly known at the AVS Forum that Axiom speakers are overly bright" would be more accurate.

Ken: Scientific proof or not, Bose does suck!

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74683 01/05/05 11:05 PM
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In reply to:

are the receivers being blind tested in the same price range?


No they are often radically different price ranges. Comparing a Radio Shack receiver to a Krell is perfectly OK. Even picking such diverse products, nobody has yet reliably identified any audible difference in blind tests.

That said, there are perfectly legitimate reason for picking a certain amp or receiver. It may have specific features you want. The aesthetic design could be more pleasing. The power rating could be better. The menu system, owner's manual, or technical support could be better.

Some amp/receiver features could be very important. Degree and type of bass management, DSP modes, type of stereo-to-surround synthesis (PLII, Logic 7), connectivity to player (e.g. Denon Dlink) could be major issues.

Regarding Axiom speakers sounding "bright", that's totally different from amplifiers. Axiom speakers can be reliably identified from other speakers in blind tests. Whether you call them bright, accurate, etc. is a subjective term. What not debatable is they (and most other speakers) audibly differ from each other.

Under the same test conditions people cannot identify specific amplifiers.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74684 01/05/05 11:12 PM
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In reply to:

It is commonly known at the AVS Forum that Axiom speakers are overly bright" would be more accurate.


It is commonly ALLEGED at the AVS Forum that Axiom speakers are overly bright" would be even more accurate. Again, "known" implies fact; "alleged" properly leaves room for doubt.


Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74685 01/06/05 12:51 AM
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In reply to:

known implies fact




Maybe Jack. "Implies," but not fact. What known actually means: discovered, revealed, public, recognized, noted.

It certainly has been discovered (by many at AVS), revealed, made public, recognized, and definitely noted on the AVS Forum what many there think of Axiom speakers. "Alleged" could have been used but would have changed the meaning (supposedly, assuming), and it IS commonly "known" at the AVS Forum what many there think of Axiom speakers.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74686 01/06/05 01:15 AM
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To many people, Axioms are NOT bright. Since there are conflicting opinions, and since this alleged brightness has not been quantitatively demonstrated by scientific proof, this brightness can only be considered as alleged, i.e. "so declared, but without proof."

I have, in fact, seen graphs posted on this forum, which show a remarkably flat response, which can be taken as quantitative evidence that Axioms are not bright. Perhaps this brightness is in the ears of the beholders, thus enabling us to allege that their ears are bright, and not the speakers.


Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74687 01/06/05 01:16 AM
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Doesn't it suck how imprecise language can be?

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74688 01/06/05 01:49 AM
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The incessant repetition of myths doesn't make them true. The bright amp/warm amp nonsense never seems to die even when faced with facts such as Joe described. It's been over 15 years since the $200 Pioneer receiver couldn't be distinguished in the Stereo Review blind tests from among other units the $6,000 pair of tube amps(infuriating some audiophiles, of course). Other blind tests have had similar results, but some otherwise intelligent individuals stubbornly continue to insist that the emperor has clothes, the earth is flat, etc. Clean power is cheap these days and receivers/amps with audibly flat response and inaudibly low noise and distortion are available at low cost.


-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74689 01/06/05 01:55 AM
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I agree; to many people, Axiom speakers are not bright; however, that is why I said, "It is commonly known that there are many at the AVS Forum who think they are overly bright." Now, while the comments by the accusers can certainly be considered "alleged" since there is no "scientific proof," it still does not change the fact that there ARE many at the AVS Forum who think that Axiom speakers are overly bright.


I like that last comment man, hilarious!

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74690 01/06/05 02:12 AM
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In reply to:

The incessant repetition of myths doesn't make them true. The bright amp/warm amp nonsense never seems to die even when faced with facts such as Joe described. It's been over 15 years since the $200 Pioneer receiver couldn't be distinguished in the Stereo Review blind tests from among other units the $6,000 pair of tube amps(infuriating some audiophiles, of course). Other blind tests have had similar results, but some otherwise intelligent individuals stubbornly continue to insist that the emperor has clothes, the earth is flat, etc. Clean power is cheap these days and receivers/amps with audibly flat response and inaudibly low noise and distortion are available at low cost.




A clear case that ignorance is bliss! In that case, I would like to redirect you HERE brutha! Have fun shopping!

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74691 01/06/05 02:39 AM
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Oh my god . That site is funny. They need a shopping cart....


M80's VP150 QS8's Earthquake SuperNova MKV-15
Integra DTR-7.4 Outlaw 755 Outlaw M200's Outlaw ICBM
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74692 01/06/05 03:39 AM
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This is a pissing match, so, I can pee off a bridge farther then you all!

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74693 01/06/05 04:18 AM
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In reply to:

there ARE many at the AVS Forum who think that Axiom speakers are overly bright


Some Axiom speakers have a characteristic sound. Some call it "bright", others "forward", others "clear", etc.

That sound (whatever you call it) can be reliably identified from other speakers in double blind listening tests, at least in comparison so many speakers. I'd like to see a case where people can't identify Rocket vs Axiom speakers in a double blind test.

By contrast amplifiers CANNOT be identified in a controlled double blind test, even when there's $10,000 to win.

The fact that some Axiom speakers have a sound some call "bright" in no way alters the fact that amplifiers have NO identifiable unique sound when tested in a controlled double blind test, nor supports the false supposition that some amplifiers have a "bright" sound.

There's a difference between speakers and amps. Speaker differences can often be identified in a controlled double blind test. Amps cannot.

You don't see anybody offering $10,000 that people can't identify two different speakers (which they are allowed to choose). Speakers and amps are different and the fact speakers can be identified in double blind tests means nothing about amps.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74694 01/06/05 05:04 AM
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Wait! So now you guys have gone from saying that Axiom speakers do not sound bright to conceding that they do? LMAO! Priceless!

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74695 01/06/05 07:07 AM
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In reply to:

now you guys have gone from saying that Axiom speakers do not sound bright to conceding that they do? LMAO


NO -- YOU have gone from claiming Onkyo amps are bright to talking about Axiom speakers. That is the change. It's called a diversion.

Virtually nobody here claims Axiom speakers don't have a distinctive sound -- ALL SPEAKERS DO. In fact most here agree there are audible differences between the Axiom M50 and M60 -- two different Axiom speakers.

The speaker debate regards PROPER WORDING to describe those differences --- NOT that they don't exist.

If speakers did not have a distinctive sound, they could not be identified in double blind tests. Call it bright, accurate, forward, neutral -- those are just subjective words. The correct adjectives can be debated. But the differences exist. At least we admit that.

Speakers generally sound different and can be identified in double blind tests.

Amps do not sound different and cannot be identified in double blind tests, even with $10,000 to win.

Whether certain Axiom speakers are best described "bright", "fresh", "clear", "crisp", etc. etc. is irrelevant to amps having no identifiable sound that endures a double blind test.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74696 01/06/05 07:10 AM
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If you keep LYAO, you'll soon run out of A to LO.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74697 01/06/05 07:12 AM
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It'a amazing the levels some will go to in order to avoid cognitive dissonance.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74698 01/06/05 07:47 AM
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Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74699 01/06/05 07:54 AM
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It's amazing that a 30+ year old man can't even spell correctly.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74700 01/06/05 08:16 AM
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30+, eh? You continue to assume incorrectly.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74701 01/06/05 08:21 AM
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Dude, time to grow up and try to have a mature conversation rather than making fun of stupid stuff and making rude insults. We can all have our disagreements, that's fine, but let's try to keep them civil.

I realize that in the past some of my disagreements have not been civil or interpreted as such. However, I'm trying to fix that.

In other words, it's a freakin' typo. Who gives a rat's ass?


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74702 01/06/05 08:22 AM
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My apologies. I saw your receding hair line and guessed wrong.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74703 01/06/05 08:24 AM
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Steeeerike 2!

btw, resorting to ad hominems is usually a sign that you have nothing valid left to say.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74704 01/06/05 08:28 AM
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START VIOLIN I realize that in the past some of my disagreements have not been civil or interpreted as such. However, I'm trying to fix that.END VIOLIN

You may want to relay your heart-felt message to your boy Petey.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74705 01/06/05 08:33 AM
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In reply to:

btw, resorting to ad hominems is usually a sign that you have nothing valid left to say.




Onkyo receivers are excessively bright.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74706 01/06/05 08:34 AM
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.

Last edited by pmbuko; 01/06/05 08:37 AM.
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74707 01/06/05 08:40 AM
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Possibly. At least you're not in denial anymore. You have taken your first step.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74708 01/06/05 08:44 AM
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I wasn't referring to receivers. I deleted the comment, since it could be taken as a personal jab and I didn't want to throw ammunition into the fire.

You still have not commented on the fact that it has been proven time and again that receivers/amps cannot be reliably distinguished in blind listening tests. THAT is a fact.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74709 01/06/05 08:52 AM
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Yeah, I know why you deleted your post. Don't be affraid to say what you mean dude. I don't take your comments personal.

As for your second comment, I only believe in one test, the true test...my ears. If you are happy with your excessively bright Onkyo the good for you; I won't tell you you're not.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74710 01/06/05 02:56 PM
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rock- you seem particularly aggressive and seem to have a down right $hitty attitude through out this whole thread.. whats the deal man? i think it has been established that we ALL have different opinions on what equip we do or dont like, but i just get the impression that you want to keep egging this thing on.. why?

just curious? and for the record, i dont find my Onkyo 701 to be bright at all. i have wondered... i have a receiver that is considered 'bright', and i have axiom speakers, that are often considered 'bright', then my system should sound like complete $hit.. yet, everyone of my friends that has come over and listened to my HT, says it is hands down the best HT they have ever heard. and these aint salesmen, or back slappin ego boosters. these are guys that have HT's themselves, and know the difference between a good and bad system. so 'bright', 'detailed', 'forward', whatever term you wanna use, its just your opinion. so please, do us a favor, get off the soap-box and spare us the grief.

i am cool with everyone having their own opinions.. but you dont have to keep shoving it down out throat like its a fact. it just causes a bunch of ugliness, and in my opinion, that is bad.....

bigjohn


EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74711 01/06/05 03:09 PM
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Big John,

It is illogical that SO MANY of the different audio products that have been deemed "too bright" around here, are in fact, too bright. That fact, along with the "odds"........discredit the poster(s).

LT

Last edited by LT61; 01/06/05 03:12 PM.

LIFE: "Choices, balance, and timing"

(Larryism)
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74712 01/06/05 04:25 PM
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Mini
I think your a shoe in to win the $10,000.00. Please go take the challenge.
With your winnings you could help fund the cost of the Axiom get-together, or better yet, donate it to the Tsunami Victims.



LIFE IS SHORT.
DON'T BE A DICK.
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74713 01/06/05 04:26 PM
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Stand back…..IMO!

Ajax – I here you on the Sonic Fox thing…..

Ray3 – Thanks for the compliment. I check the board frequently, but as I have stated on several occasions, reply only when I feel it necessary. I try to limit my “useless posts”, and tire of the way things get of topic, and off the rails so quickly. While I scan the thread titles, I choose my path wisely. As many will agree, we seemingly have our own opinions, formed by various influences. We gather hear to discuss them, and should respect, value attempt to understand and learn from the varied experiences, opinions, and thoughts of others. However, it is better f these are delivered in a positive manner, and much more likely to be discounted if they are not.

Kcarlile – With regards to Bose and graphs, I believe that 2x6 posted a link to the graphs of some speakers that had less than great graphs. These speakers are among the best I have ever heard. I agree that I am not a big fan of Bose, but we need to use all methods to form our own opinions.

Lomb7 – gee, am I glad I don’t live near you!!! LOL

Pmbuko – yes, imprecision has lead to many a disagreement. Semantics have as well. Cultural and geographical differences can lead to the misinterpretation as well. I think that you have done a good job of staying focused, and not getting caught up in the emotion.

Joema – thanks for the clarification. Do you have any links to these items?

JohnK – agreed, however perception is reality, and repetition keeps the issue alive – unfortunately…..

Minirock – boy where to start?!?! Yes, I said it is all opinion. HOWEVER, properly presented, opinions are accepted. While you started off wrong, I was prepared to listen and learn from your posts. They unfortunately veered of course, and you seemingly became very defensive. I also noticed that your sentences and wording changed, which changed the meaning and direction of your AVS quote. While you may not have been upset by the questions directed towards you, your responses to such did not create an credibility for your opinions, or any follow up conversation you may engage in.

I also think you got confused, as you started by stating Onkyo was bright, to chiding the forum for Axiom conceding they sound bright……something is amiss here.

You also personally attacked a forum member. This is not something an intelligent person should do when the discussion is not going in there favour.

To close, I would like to thank the academy for their supp….oops, wrong speech!!!!

I think I am going to include IMO in my signature!!!!




Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74714 01/06/05 04:50 PM
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Mike - I suspect your personally defined "useless posts" would be welcome and an entertaining diversion , so don't let that limit you. No reason the forum can't be somewhat helpful AND fun!

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74715 01/06/05 05:06 PM
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oh yeah...SEZ YOU!!!!

ok, I promise my attendance will be more.....often...as long as Jack will promise to get me a copy of his 39 DVD volume of " How to Win Bingo and Influence Arteries not to Hard " box set!!!!

Assuming he has finished stepping on people's insteps, and stopped harassing Sonicfox!!!

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74716 01/06/05 05:10 PM
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EXcellent!! Jack - please help Mike with the stuff he requested. Jack..... Jack.... JACK - WAKE UP!!!!

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74717 01/06/05 05:13 PM
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funny, I was just in the General forum, looking at a web cam that Mark posted that seemingly had a few fuzzy images of what I would imagine Jack looks like when he is awoken from his drunken stooper....err ....beauty sleep!!!

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74718 01/06/05 05:25 PM
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Mike,

Points well taken. First I would like to say that I'm sorry you don't enjoy the off topic "silliness" that so often happens around here. I'd be surprised if each one of us didn't feel a little frustration, at times, when a thread goes off topic into a vein that we either aren't interested in, or find foolish. I know I do. But, it's not MY forum, and I have learned to just pass by those threads without reading closely, and so have reached a point where they don't really bother me at all. And, the last thing I'm gonna do (I really dislike this) is post "what's the matter with you people," thereby venting my spleen, but unnecessarily raining on someone else's parade. Just because I am not enjoying the thread, doesn't give me the right to spoil it for others who are.

Another reason I'm sorry you don't enjoy the "silliness" of off topic banter is because, based on several of your posts in this thread, you have a marvelous flare for it. I've laughed aloud ("with," not "at") several times.

Lastly, I'd like you to know that I consider you a positive contributor to this forum. We may not always agree, but complete agreement is not a requirement for misanthropes to get along

P.S. I resent that you would consider my reference to hugging SonicFox as harassment. SHE would, I suspect, consider it that, but it's not for you to say.

Man, you definitely blew your chance at getting a copy of my 39 DVD volume of " How to Win Bingo and Influence Arteries not to Harden " box set!!!!



Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74719 01/06/05 05:27 PM
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In reply to:

funny, I was just in the General forum, looking at a web cam that Mark posted that seemingly had a few fuzzy images of what I would imagine Jack looks like when he is awoken from his drunken stooper....err ....beauty sleep!!!


Now THIS is harassment! I take back any nice things I said in my previous post.


Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74720 01/06/05 05:33 PM
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I agree with Jack. He most definitely does NOT have a black nose!!

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74721 01/06/05 05:55 PM
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JACK,

I have to agree with BBIBH........about the..OT, AND..... "thread jacking".
As you may know by now, I ENJOY the jocularity, witty banter, and off the wall humor....in addition to the audio information, etc. that this forum offers..........BUT,.......does ALMOST EVERY thread HAVE to
end up with the "buddy banter", and inane, OT jibber-jabber?

I suppose this will torque someone off, (I am NOT the forum police, or am I trying to chastise anyone) but, it's just kind of frustrating, when you go back to a thread, and see 28+ replies to an interesting post, someone has taken the time to make for us,.......... you get set for an interesting "read" and...........(you know the rest).
just an observation.

LT

Last edited by LT61; 01/06/05 06:09 PM.

LIFE: "Choices, balance, and timing"

(Larryism)
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74722 01/06/05 05:55 PM
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Jack,

thanks for the positive comments about me. I do have a great sense of humour and like to use it. I also read most of the silliness, and do enjoy some of it….but I do tune out…except for certain members posts.

Hey, I have no comment on you hugging Sonicfox, but suggest she might….and where does the line form for this – hugging HER, not you!!!

Gee…no DVD’s?? Man, and I just got out the quilt, TV tray, robe and timeshifted Golden Girls (man are they HOT!!!) to watch it!!!!

Hey, they are serving JELLO in the caf today!!!!!!!


LT, thanks for the vote, and I agree....seemingly every post goes off wildly.....

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74723 01/06/05 09:21 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044
If I had to read posts only about what reciever to get with M60s or whether to upgrade to M60s from M22s, I think I would go insane. I respectfully disagree about the OT stuff!


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74724 01/06/05 09:33 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 845
aficionado
Offline
aficionado
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 845
Duly noted.


LIFE: "Choices, balance, and timing"

(Larryism)
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74725 01/06/05 11:06 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 958
M
mwc Offline
aficionado
Offline
aficionado
M
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 958
I agree with Ken about the OT stuff. I think that most threads go off topic when pretty much that needs to be said about the topic has already been said. Besides, I think the friendly banter is one of the things that makes the Axiom board so charming and unique. I don't know of any other board where the members are so chummy (most of the time).

Just my 2 cents


I live the life I love and I love the life I live.
Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74726 01/11/05 02:57 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 494
devotee
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devotee
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 494
In reply to:

Mini
I think your a shoe in to win the $10,000.00. Please go take the challenge.
With your winnings you could help fund the cost of the Axiom
get-together, or better yet, donate it to the Tsunami Victims.




Interesting that you mention donating since I have been busy the last few days donating my time helping to raise funds. In addition to donating my time, I also donated $2005 for our drive, and my wife donated another $2005 to the Red Cross; however, it is going to take so much more than what has been given so far, so I'm hoping everyone here has also donated or helped in some way.

As for an Axiom meet, I think that is a swell idea. I guess the hard part is finding a location that everyone can agree on.


In reply to:

Minirock – boy where to start?!?! Yes, I said it is all opinion. HOWEVER, properly presented, opinions are accepted. While you started off wrong, I was prepared to listen and learn from your posts. They unfortunately veered of course, and you seemingly became very defensive. I also noticed that your sentences and wording changed, which changed the meaning and direction of your AVS quote. While you may not have been upset by the questions directed towards you, your responses to such did not create an credibility for your opinions, or any follow up conversation you may engage in.
I also think you got confused, as you started by stating Onkyo was bright, to chiding the forum for Axiom conceding they sound bright……something is amiss here.
You also personally attacked a forum member. This is not something an intelligent person should do when the discussion is not going in there favour.





Mike: Thanks for the superfluous, arm-chair, pseudo-psychoanalysis. Keep it up bud!


BigJ: My apologies big man. I was just having a little fun when I made that post with the link to that site.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74727 01/11/05 07:00 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 5,236
axiomite
Offline
axiomite
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 5,236
You couldn't just let this thread die...



Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74728 01/11/05 01:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,459
Likes: 6
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,459
Likes: 6
Reading you posts, and seeing you change course (as others did as well....) makes me all that???

If you type it, people will read it. I guess you could not admit that you strayed off course, and when questioned, attempted to divert the attention. It is a shame people do not stand behind what they say......

...and to think, I started out somewhat on your side......


Sorry Craig......

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74729 01/12/05 09:57 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 494
devotee
Offline
devotee
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 494
Oops! Sorry I got your name wrong man; still, let's not take things personal sweetie.

Re: axiom m60 and onkyo NR801
#74730 01/12/05 05:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,459
Likes: 6
connoisseur
Offline
connoisseur
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,459
Likes: 6
sweetie?

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