Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Newbee question on amps

I am returning to hi fi after many years (kids finally out of the house and I actually have some money at the end of the month!)and trying to sort out fact from fiction. The next item I plan to upgrade is my amp.

Once you move past circuit city type products there seems to be a huge difference in amplifier brand and model prices. Is there any empirical, double-blind study, NRC research, etc. evidence that support these differences, outside of WPC and power supply?

some people say different amps color the sound differently. I'm not quite sure how this happens.. this might be like saying black cables have the darkest sound and yellow cables have the brightest sound...

but then again, I might be wrong. I just always had the impression that power is power, and it doesn't take the analog sound coming in, alter it, then power it out to the speaker. I think the other electronics have more to do with this.

One myth to beware of is false power ratings. Cheapo sony or rca might claim 200 watts, but these are peak ratings at a low impedence level. A good company like Denon, HK, Onkyo, and Yamaha will offer lower numbers, like 70 watts per channel, but they are a real 70 wpc RMS, which means continuous, not peak.

In reply to:

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A good company like Denon, HK, Onkyo, and Yamaha will offer lower numbers, like 70 watts per channel, but they are a real 70 wpc RMS, which means continuous, not peak.

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Small nitpick: RMS isn't continuous, but average. It's taken from dividing the integral of the signal over one period by the period itself.

/EE geek mode off.

Sadly, there aren't many specs at all one can reliably look at to determine the performance of a A/V equipment. The specs don't really tell much of a story as there are far too many variables involved and the ultimate goal, pleasing sound, is entirely subjective.

I recommend picking a price point you're comfortable with (the stuff at Circuit City and Best Buy is all crap to my ears...) and auditioning the models in your price range (in your home if you can). I actually swapped out the top of the line Yamaha model Best Buy carried in 98 or 99 with a Denon AVR-4802 last month (price jump from $649.99 to $2100.00) and almost wet myself the first time I heard it.

Listen to them all, and determine whether or not your ears can tell a difference. Then determine which differences you prefer.

I am just skeptical of subjective evaluation and room/placement-dependent results and was hoping to find some insight similar to the speaker wire discussions elsewhere on this board or the recent Axiom Audiofile email on NRC speaker testing.

Bob:

There is a cost efficient way of testing the equipment in YOUR room, with YOUR speakers, and YOUR wires, whnever YOU feel like it, and not pay full retail price -- buy used equipment.

At any given price point, there shouldn't be TOO many amps available (so once you figure out how much you want to spend it should be fairly easy). Go to sites like audiogon.com or audioweb.com, look for fair market values on some of these used equipments. Buy a couple/few of them (depending on your cash flows), keep them for a few months, and decide for yourself which one you like.

At worst, you'll end up short the shipping you pay for these amps.

Hope this helps.

I'm skeptical of subjective reviews as well because every room and ear is a little different. Plus, some of the review sites and magazines, as in just about every industry, are merely corporate whores, selling the wares. That's why I suggest YOU audition them. Find stuff that a lot of people like, and listen to them. If you listen to them in position in your home, even better. Use music and movies you know VERY well and decide for yourself.

The only measuring equipment that means anything in the audio world is your own pair of ears.

Bob, as far as sound quality goes, a watt is a watt. Clean power is cheap these days and there's no problem in finding ruler-flat 20-20Khz response at inaudibly low distortion levels. More expensive equipment may handle loads of 4 ohms and below better and may have a longer life, but won't sound any better in ordinary circumstances. Get the features and amount of power you want at the best price you can get and don't worry about nameplates.

I found a pretty good deal on a Harman/Kardon 325 7.1 channel amplifier. I picked it up for $564 which is total shipping included and it is new. I found it on Ebay you can also find a pretty good deal through Amazon right now. Having not heard it I will not comment on that however it has every feature that I want and more. I just purchased a set of m3ti's and qs4's and vp100 and I am waiting for all to arrive I am quite stoked and they really can't get here fast enough. There are some amazing deals right now I got all the speakers I just mentioned for a little over 600 with shipping and everything else. I certainly have spent altogether more money then I should but there are some pretty sweat deals going on right now post christmas. Hmmm... back to the Receiver. It has 7 channels at 50 watts per channel (conservative) Logic 7, DPL II, DTS:Neo6, DTS ES, etc. Basically it has everything that I can think of needing right now and (I haven't heard it yet) supposedly really nice sound. If your interested I can let you know what it sounds like once I receive it.

Bobcox,

Some manufacturers might deliberately tweak amplfiers to color sound in a particular way (ex. attenuating high frequencies to make an amp sound "warm and easy-going"). Ian Masters wrote a great article on the subject at mastersonaudio.com. I would imagine such tweaking is common with companies like Arcam, whose amps have a "trademarked sound" to them. This isn't to say tweaking is always a "bad" thing...it just may account for a perceived difference between two products.

If you're shopping for an amp, just go to your local specialty store and ask to take a few amps (in your price range) home for an audition.

I for one deffinitly beleive that vintage amplifiers sound better. I own a Grommes 24PG (circa early 1960s(?) which is thus far my favorite little amplifier yet. I also own a Merantz (circa about 1975) and once owned a Fisher (circe about 1968. Each amplifier has their own charicteritics, the Fisher had a very forthcomming and present bass reproduction, while the Grommes and Marantz were a little more balanced. The Grommes being an all tube amplifier should not really be compaired to it's solid state sisters, but in comparison it's sound is smooth and relaxed, with a more present staging. Bass is warm, almost "fuzzy" and natural, and I do not mean this as fuzzy as in distortion but rather a quality that isn't easy to explain, it seemed to over-all be less distorted and colored than the Fisher. The Marantz in comparison to the Grommes is more solid, less natural and more "mechanical" for some, this sharper and more crisp sound is more desirable.

Either way, my feelings about hifi is the older the better, so long as you choose a good brand.

I don't know much about Grommes, and looking up the 24PG on the internet only brings back three hits. One of which I wrote myself reveiwing the Warfedale MFM3.

I bought the amp for 100 bucks on ebay... while others on Ebay were searching for more well known vintage tube amp manufacterers, such as Denon, Marantz and Fisher, I think I got a bargan on a more rare amplifier. If you know anything about Grommes' 24PG amplifier (reputation, ect), please let me know.