Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions What's up with bi-wiring

Ya, we've got a Home Depot here and there.
But they've got crap selection for speaker wire.
Some really stiff 12ga stuff that cost $1.50 a foot and i would need pliers to bend.
I went to a local audio electronics friend who sells audio (as opposed to industrial) grade cable. It was nice and flexible, 50 cents a foot. But the light grey sheath just isn't cutting it with my nice Boston Cherry Axioms.

Saturn,
have you heard of a thing called advertising?
The almighty dollar is what most motivates the cable 'snake oils' of the day, what drives the sales of expensive cables and what prompts people into believing they can tell the differences even if others cannot.

Don't fool yourself.
It still comes down to human perception and emotions as stimulated by the 'hype' of advertising.

As for going to hifi audio shops, yes, MANY of them do sell expensive cable, and if you actually get to know some of these people personally, especially the ones that repair the equipment for a living, many of them also do NOT use anything more than regular 12ga generic stuff for their home systems. Just because they sell it, doesn't mean they use it.

In reply to:

---

Semi On, I think you are acknowledging my point. My point wasn't any particular (brand of) cable is better; it was that they each sounded different, and because there was a difference, each person, along with the associated equipment, will have a particular perference.

---

Not exactly. Each person wasn't consistent on their own. On one pass, they'd think one particular brand of expensive wire sounded better, on another they'd pick a different brand. Often times, they picked the generic wire. None were able to consistently prefer the same wire.

This is a different point entirely.

> > how is biwiring any better?
>
> It's not. There is SOME potential for a better signal
> with bi-amping, possibly in theory. There is absolutley
> no gain in bi-wiring.

Actually if you are using 16gu wire, biwiring actually could help because it splits the load. If you are using 14gu, or even better 12gu you shouldn't notice any difference.

Michael

In reply to:

---

Actually if you are using 16gu wire, biwiring actually could help because it splits the load. If you are using 14gu, or even better 12gu you shouldn't notice any difference.

---

That doesn't make biwiring better. If you use two cables, one a biwire set, that both equal out to 16ga, you wouldn't have any major improvement.

Wouldn't the size and length of wire change it's resistance? And could that somehow effect the sound quality someway? Higher resistance is used within the crossover to filter certain frequencies. I think the best way to go is fiber optic cable and the signal would be totally pure and unaltered. As far as bi-wiring/amping goes...lets get Ian to bi-wire some M-60's and get a frequency response and waterfall measurements and we'll know scientifically how it effects them.

Chesseroo said,

"Is it possible that all these music audiophiles just have more amazing ears than the rest of the human population?"

Much like a wine tester may possess extraordinary olfactory senses, so do some audiophiles (I stress a very small number). Much like your average wine tester and average audiophile there is a certain amount of training which provides a level of acuity. Level of acuity is not to be confused with amazing hearing. I still recall being trained to recognize a "C" note. A magical moment indeed. The "C" note was always there but it took training to recognize it. I do not poses amazing hearing nor am I a good musician. But you begin to notice subtle differences with training and critical listening. The point is listening critically to music and audio gear is a combination of hearing and training to hear.
My two cents. I have yet to notice any "improved" sound from exotic cables but I'm always available for listening tests!
On bi-wiring/bi-amping. Bi-wiring seems a waste of cable to me for all the reasons you've probably seen before. I see the dble binding posts as a mechanism by which one can add a particularly good tube amp for the mids and highs while using the solid state amp for the low end. All part of the fun of playing with our gear.
You also have to trust your instincts and ignore the price tag. Are Wilson Watt Puppy's worth $17,000US? Not to my ears! not by a long shot.... but I'd sure love to own a pair of Waveform Mach 17's.

Cheers,

Dan

Chesseroo:

Let's just say I disagree with you on biwiring/wiring, but I do agree with "The scientific mind should not be a closed mind but definitely a scrutinzing one".

Cu is Cu is Cu, but I am open to the fact certain twists, thickness, directions, fancy-things-like-silver-wrapped-copper that makes you go WTF?!, well maybe (just MAYBE) sometimes it MAY make the sound better.

My expensive cable that fits my industrial style basement decor is 2 runs of braided HD 12ga Cu cable in black polyester sleeves. NO, they are not the best sounding cables I have heard; they are just what I have on last, and I'm just too lazy to be arsed to make something else Total cost for a 8 feet pair - $40. (So no, I'm not a yaysayer, just not a naysayer!)

Now, if we could now start on biamping

In reply to:

---

Cu is Cu is Cu, but I am open to the fact certain twists, thickness, directions, fancy-things-like-silver-wrapped-copper that makes you go WTF?!, well maybe (just MAYBE) sometimes it MAY make the sound better.

---

THIS is where I find all of this silly. I'm an electical engineer by education and current position is in VERY high frequency networking and telecomm semiconductors. WE have to worry about noise in wires and engineer our test boards with very expensive SMA connectors (still cheap compared to the idiocy I see in the audiophile world at about $8 a pair) and expensive, precisely measured cables to connect our very delicately crafted evaluation board to said connectors and our $250k Tektronix Oscilloscope. Our devices are also operating in the 5-50GHz range.

ONLY there does the skew and jitter of a cable and connector matter. ONLY there will you have differences that are measurably large enough to cause an eye diagram to lose value. From an EE standpoint, at frequencies in the range of audible sound, the amount of jitter and skew present in a cable does not change enough by cable to actually add any value to one cable over another.

Regards,
Semi

DanTana,

The size and length would add some resistance, but it's so tiny as to be totally insignificant compared to the load.