Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater HDTV 'OFFAIR' ANTENNAS

For those that don't know (I didn't), off air ((a signal that is sent via a transmitter, over the airwaves, to an antenna)) broadcasts of High Definition signals take place in the UHV spectrum..
I had never asked, and assumed they were VHF.. I found this out, while shopping for an antenna for my Mit's HDTV.. It has the build in HD reciever, and only requires an external antenna to produce beautiful pictures..
Most of the sales people, even at the dedicated electronics shops, do not know much about HD.. It's still just too new..
Anyway, out of 12 people, at 8 different business locations, one knew.. He explained that all the HD signals were broadcast on UHF.. And, that if one was buying an antenna that would be used solely for HD, buy a 'dedicated' UHF model.. More dedicated UHF elements, equates to a much better picture.. They are also easier to work with: size, weight, placement, etc..
There are a couple Winegards: HD 9085P, HD9095P, PR 8800, and the PR 9032.. I went with the 9095P.. I'm about 50 miles from the transmitter site, with no hills or tall buildings in between, and this baby rocks.. The picture and sound are something I would have never dreamed possible over the air..
So if you have an HD reciever, and didn't know before, go get yourself a dedicated UHF rig.. Oh yeah, prices run from around 50 to 125 US.. And stay away from Radio Shack and their like.. Get a major brand.. Major difference in quality and longevity.. I spent good money for my MITS, no point in coming up short on the outboard gear, right ?

Why did you think they'd be VHF?

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And stay away from Radio Shack and their like.. Get a major brand.. Major difference in quality and longevity..

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You use Kimber cables too, don't you?

Did you try cheaper antennai? If not, how do you know they aren't equal? Because the sales guy told you so? The same logic is used to sell thousand dollar cables...

Remember folks, sales associates are in business to take your money. It's just an antenna.

Good recommendations:

Outdoor/attic - Channel Master 4248 ($45) or Winegard 9095 ($65); both are UHF only yagi antennas; ideal for fringe installations
Smaller outdoor/attic/indoor - Channel Master 3021 ($25); UHF only; good for applications near or not too distant from the station transmitters
Indoor - Antiference Silver Sensor (about $35) or the Radio Shack UHF double bow-tie ($17); good for applications near or not too distant the station transmitters; Antiference is effective in combatting multipath

There's nothing wrong with RadioShack antennai and you can get a fabulous signal without a $150 antenna so long as you don't live in Antarctica.

Sorry Semi, but I disagree.. There is a difference in quaility between R/Shack and someone like Winegard, Channel Master, etc..
Yes, R/S makes good stuff.. But not all of it will meet all of your needs.. All antennas are NOT created equal.. Sure, in some cases it might just be a better anti corrosive, or stainless bolts instead of steel, but even those little things will play a part in the big picture :-)
R/S is not going to produce a rig on the same level of quality as a dedicated antenna company.. If for no other comparision than selection..
R/S's only UHF rig is joke, made to look like a pro.. Big 40 inch boom sprouting bow-ties and aluminum rods all over the place.. But only "17" ACTIVE elements ! And then they have the nerve to give it a 75 mile range ??!! Give me a break..
As for the "Did I try a CHEAPER antenna", again, give me a break.. Dude, sorry, but you can't just go around buying one rig after the other, setting them all up, then trying to unsnap all the elements, but it back in a box and return it ? Anyone that has tried that once, knows what I'm talking about.. They don't break down without a lot of hassle, and more often than not, breaking at a joint or bending..
You apparently have a deep seated hate for the person the other side of the counter? Yes, I do ask them for their help.. That's what they are there for.. But I do a lot digging on my own as well.. I ask more than just one person, at more than just one location.. I contacted Winegard directly.. I spoke with a number of antenna installation businesses.. What do you think, that I just walked in to "Wall Mart", and picked the prettyest looking one I could find ? Sheeesh..
Dude, I'm on the Axiom site because I own Axiom speakers.. Do you think I didn't do my research for those ?
I'm not an expert on anything, but I know how to ask questions.. And I ask lots of them.. If I don't think Im getting the straight scoop, I move on....
As for not knowing it was UHF, well excuuuuuuse me !! I didn't know you would be offended with the confession.. I offered the info for anyone else that might find it of interest.. (Or, in your eyes, lacking of knowledge ?)
As to the Kimber comment, where did that come from ? What did I do to you ?
No, I use common 100 percent copper/oxygen free wire, bought at my local electronics store for a song and dance.. But don't think I didn't read all I could on the subject before I made the purchase.. And guess what, I listened to a number of 'sales clerks' in the process.. Shame shame on me, eh ?
Later..

I'm sorry. You clearly took offense to my post and it wasn't meant that way. I tend to be far more direct in written correspondence as I'm staring at a sterile screen versus an empathetic human whose energy I can feed on.

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There is a difference in quaility between R/Shack and someone like Winegard, Channel Master, etc..
Yes, R/S makes good stuff.. But not all of it will meet all of your needs.. All antennas are NOT created equal.. Sure, in some cases it might just be a better anti corrosive, or stainless bolts instead of steel, but even those little things will play a part in the big picture :-)

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Depends on what the "big picture" means, I suppose. Will it result in a better picture for your TV? No. Will it a bit more aesthetically pleasing? Maybe. Will it last longer? Depends far more on your environment, I suppose.

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R/S is not going to produce a rig on the same level of quality as a dedicated antenna company.. If for no other comparision than selection..

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An unproven statement. Show me bad build quality in cheaper antennai (aside from Teak, which is mostly plastic...). While RF transmission theory can be a complicated and mathematically challenging task for the uninitiated, it isn't exactly new. Antenna theory on the level required for television broadcasts is a pretty basic course in most EE programs.

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R/S's only UHF rig is joke, made to look like a pro.. Big 40 inch boom sprouting bow-ties and aluminum rods all over the place.. But only "17" ACTIVE elements ! And then they have the nerve to give it a 75 mile range ??!! Give me a break..

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Ever try it? If not, what evidence do you have for dismissing their claims? Certainly, it's going to be a best case scenario, but given good line of sight, no obstruction and a sufficiently tall mounting they're claims may be accurate. Having never done any testing on that particular model, I don't think I'm qualified to dismiss them.

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As for the "Did I try a CHEAPER antenna", again, give me a break.. Dude, sorry, but you can't just go around buying one rig after the other, setting them all up, then trying to unsnap all the elements, but it back in a box and return it ? Anyone that has tried that once, knows what I'm talking about.. They don't break down without a lot of hassle, and more often than not, breaking at a joint or bending..

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And yet you're willing to dismiss them all. You have zero evidence for your claims but you make statements as a matter of fact and then are surprised when called on it. Maybe I've just had too many science classes, but I tend to rely on proper evidence which is why I'm finding your post so questionable. You sound like the guys that rant and rave about $2k speaker wire. From an antenna theory perspective, there's nothing wrong with RadioShack's antennai.

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You apparently have a deep seated hate for the person the other side of the counter?

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I'm disappointed in both of us that you were able to draw that conclusion.

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Yes, I do ask them for their help.. That's what they are there for.. But I do a lot digging on my own as well.. I ask more than just one person, at more than just one location.. I contacted Winegard directly.. I spoke with a number of antenna installation businesses.. What do you think, that I just walked in to "Wall Mart", and picked the prettyest looking one I could find ? Sheeesh..

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No. It sounded, from your initial post, that you walked into a high end store and were sold on the concept by a good sales person as your initial post described you speaking to only one person, a sales person (I'm inherently distrusting of sales people being in marketing now), that seemed to know what he was talking about. I've met sales people that seemed to know what they were talking about as well, but I also knew they were full of crap.

If you did more research than that, my impression was mistaken. I'd like you to provide the evidence you found to support this claim here as I've never seen anything, including several classes on transmission lines, electromagnetism and communications that let me conclude many of the cheaper alternatives wouldn't function as fine antennai.

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Dude, I'm on the Axiom site because I own Axiom speakers.. Do you think I didn't do my research for those ?

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I'm not sure of the point here other than to highlight that we both have exceptional taste in speakers.

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As for not knowing it was UHF, well excuuuuuuse me !! I didn't know you would be offended with the confession.. I offered the info for anyone else that might find it of interest.. (Or, in your eyes, lacking of knowledge ?)

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I didn't mean it offensively. You clearly know enough about radio transmission to know the difference between VHF and UHF, or at least that a difference exists. I doubt 99% of the population in first world countries can claim the same. As such, I would have assumed you knew why they use UHF. I appologize for offending you.

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As to the Kimber comment, where did that come from ? What did I do to you ?

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It was a joke, meant lightly. Those closest to me and I tease one another. I carry that to my communication with most people. On the internet, the inflection in such teasing is often lost, leaving the recipient feeling insulted. I didn't mean it that way.

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No, I use common 100 percent copper/oxygen free wire, bought at my local electronics store for a song and dance.. But don't think I didn't read all I could on the subject before I made the purchase.

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Much of the same principles apply here...

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And guess what, I listened to a number of 'sales clerks' in the process.. Shame shame on me, eh ?

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And how many of them were at high end stores that claimed expensive cables were essential? If you shopped around, I would assume quite a few, taking us back to where we started...

My point was that your original claim that Radio Shack's antennai were crap is totally wrong. They're perfectly fine antennai which will suffice for most people. If you spent $5k on your television, spending a bit more on your antenna is probably not a big deal and there are marginal gains to be had, so more power to you. It was the claim that everything else is worthless I objected to. There are plenty of people here, probably the majority, that would be perfectly happy with a cheaper Radio Shack antenna.

Regards,
Semi

I want to clarify something:

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As for not knowing it was UHF, well excuuuuuuse me !! I didn't know you would be offended with the confession.. I offered the info for anyone else that might find it of interest.. (Or, in your eyes, lacking of knowledge ?)



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I didn't mean it offensively. You clearly know enough about radio transmission to know the difference between VHF and UHF, or at least that a difference exists. I doubt 99% of the population in first world countries can claim the same. As such, I would have assumed you knew why they use UHF. I appologize for offending you.

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I was really curious. I just wondered what your logic was.

And to keep this topic on topic, perhaps someone could explain in general terms a bit more about how the HDTV signal and home system works (a simple technical explanation without the math would probably suffice).
This is an area of science i'm not very familiar with. Its been a long time since i ever heard the words VHF and UHF.
Coaxial has been my friend for quite awhile now.

I have a couple of friends that are into the satellite tv and from what i understand, the whole digital signal-HDTV thing is a bit of a bust. Something to do with the analog transmission of a signal simply turned into a digital one hence reflecting analogy quality as per its origin?
Not being able to get local or even national (common) channels?
But within a couple of years, all stations required to transmit digitally?

Mikey, I'm a little confused by your explanation.

Does this mean that if I buy a TV with an onboard HDTV tuner, I don't need to subscribe to a cable/satellite company?

Actually, HDTV is not UHF by definition, that's just the way it often works out. In fact, my local PBS is broadcast VHF. And eventually, the stations that currently have both analog and digital channels will have to give one of them back to the govt, so I wouldn't be so sure you won't see more VHF DTV channels in the future.

As for the Radio Shack antennas being junk, that's BS. Ask around on some of the home theater forums where the HDTV gurus hang out and they'll tell you that the big RatShack Yagi antennas work very well and give you the most bang for your buck. The performance of the expensive non-directional antennas is often a big disappointment. Unless you truly need to pick up channels from towers in totally different directions, you're much better off with a directional antenna because they work more reliably. My $30 attic antenna picks up all the Houston DTV stations from about 35 miles away with a rock solid signal, even during thunderstorms and heavy rain.

FHW.. Exactly.. It's broadcast over the air, and can be received via any UHF antenna.. If, and this is the big IF, you have stations in your area that are broadcasting HiDef signals..
It's not really digital at all, just a very hign end high quality signal..
I am NOT an expert on this by any means, as Semi as so vigorously pointed out, but the bottom line is simple enough..
Just get a UHF antenna, point it at the transmit site, and your are in business.. You can check local or national sites for info on just who is broadcasting in HD, and when..
Those stations that do, are not always up and running.. They have schedules much like the old AM radio days of long ago..
The major broadcast networks like CBS and NBC are all over it, but then ABC isn't ? Go figure.. You should be able to find a lot of local stuff in your area.. When you do, it's great.. It's hard to go back to VHF broadcasts..
Cable and/or satellite service transmissions are not all HiDef.. It would have to be a HiDef program, and not all their shows are.. There are a few, HBO has a HD channel for one, but not all HBO is HD.. Confusing ? I'm with ya brother..

Good morning Chesseroo..
Ok, here's a few bits of info I have gathered over the last few weeks..
It's not digital, it's a very high end signal, originating from high end cameras, broadcast in the upper UHF band..
It is being broadcast freely over the airways, and takes nothing more than a UHF antenna to bring it home..
There is a lot of confusion on the subject, but this has come mainly from dealers at local good 'ol boy stores, and really not their fault, it's just too new..
If you have an HD reciever, and a UHF antenna, your in business. Even the little loop UHF ant on the back of the tv will work if the signal is stong enough..
Get this, there are only approx 1 million HD receivers in the US at this time, and only half of them are reported to know how or are even attempting to capture HD signals.. ? !
Yes, in a few years all broadcasts are going to this type of signal.. 5 years was the latest time table given..
And you are right, over the last 20 years the world we know today, moved away from antennas of the 50's and 60's to cable and sat systems.. It's not easy to find good UHF gear, or techs that are up to speed on their use..
As a final point on the purchase of a qood quality UHF ant, it was made very clear to me that as these signals are so high up the freg ladder, that just the slightest weak link in the chain (sig to ant to coax to tv) can have a negative effect on the final picture..
Get the best you can.. Check your distance from the trans site, as well as what may be between you and same.. There are a number of ant designes, pick what will work best for you..
One other thing.. A dedicated UHF ant will give you more range and UHF elements, than a combo VHF/UHF model, and at a bit of lower price.. Not that a combo is bad, it's just an FYI.. And you might have to deal with two transmit sites.. One UHF one VHF.. In that case, you run a combo or just VHF at the VHF site, and a UHF at the UHF site.. This is not uncommon..