Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Which Sub to buy with Epic Grand Master

This is my first post and I have no previous experience wih subs, so please bear with me.

In all likelyhood I will soon be joining the Axiom family(just waiting for colour discs before ordering). From what I've read the sub is real important to any HT system, especially with bookshelf speakers as the mains, and want to get the best for my hard earned buck. So, my question is what sub to purchase. I'm hoping to keep the purchase to about $600+-50 cdn and am considering the following subs in that price range:HSU STF-2; SVS PB10-ISD; Velodyne DLS 4000 and of course the Axiom EP175.

My main concern is sound quality, although size and looks are a consideration. Not knowing anything about how they sound/perform, the pro's and con's I can discern from the specs. are: the SVS goes to the lowest frequencies 20Hz (+-3 db), the rest to about 25Hz, except the Axiom to only 32Hz; the SVS doesn't have speaker level inputs and a low-pass filter while the rest do thus is restricted to use with a Dolby Digital A/V receiver (my intended use, but you never know); the Velodyne has a 12 inch driver while the rest have 10 inch (sounds like guys comparing tools) making it more adaptable should I move the system to a larger room in the future; the Axiom sub finish would match the finish I select for the rest of the system.

Your thoughts and insights on the above models (or any others of similar value) would be greatly appreciated.

Paul

I almost forgot, the size of my HT room is fairly small at 12x16x7.4 ft. but ajoins at the end of the long wall by a 4 ft. wide opening to a room 10x13x7.4. The couch will be set up on one side of the long wall 11 ft. across from the mains and screen.

i think your best bet would be the HSU or SVS, that is in your price range. those subs will traditionally give you the best bang for buck.

i cant say which specifically to get, but for the money, either company will produce a sub that will run circles around the EP175. but, as you mentioned, they wont be able to match the color options you get with axioms.. my opinion, just stick it in a corner, who cares what it looks like.

bigjohn

Paul, I'm always reluctant to answer questions like this. I only have personal experience with one of your options. I have owned the STF-2 and was completely satisfied with it. I used it in a room very similar in size to yours (11.5 x 18 x 8). I have no doubt you'd be satisfied with the STF-2.

I suspect you would be satisfied with any of the subs on your list. But, based on what I've heard and read, if I were buying today, I've go for the SVS, unless, as John pointed out, matching the speakers finish is a major factor, then the Axiom is the choice. I'm sorry I know absolutely nothing about the Velodyne

Paul,
Don't let the 10 inch driver scare you off. I replaced a Klipsch ksw 12 (12 inch driver) with a Hsu VTF 2 mkII (10 Inch driver). I thought I would be dissapointed with the spl output of the smaller driver. Boy, was I wrong. The Hsu won on all levels--sounded better on both music and movies, and played deeper with no distortion. Before my 30 day period was up, the upgrade bug bit me and I traded for the VTF 3 mkII. Looking back, if I didn't have the money to get the bigger sub, I would've been completely satisfied with the VTF 2. The sub is very capable for its size. I thought the 10 inch driver would perform better for music, but would fall short on home theater. No. When called upon it made be believe tanks were rolling down the hallway on "Saving Private Ryan," but was also articulate, and dare I say "delicate," enough when I listened to music to seemlessly blend in.

Thanks for the thoughts. From what i've read you and your comments the SVS and HSU seem to be the leaders at this price point. I'm leaning towards the SVS as it goes a little lower than the HSU.

Cheers.

I also own the Hsu STF-2 and it is more than I need (but not more than I want ). Had the SVS been available when I made my purchase I would have given it strong consideration but I think I still I would have gone with the Hsu. This is just speculation and heresay, but I've read enough reports to convince me that the Hsu was more musical than the SVS and seeing as how I listen to a lot more music than movies, that would be the obvious choice for me. On the other hand, I watch (and listen) enough movies to warrant a Hsu over Axiom or PSB (both of which I hear are superb musically, I can actually attest to the PSB). In my opinion and only my opinion the Hsu offers the best of both worlds; subterranean depths and musical control and tightness. With that said, like what everyone else has said, you'll probably be happy with any of your choices.

Paul,

I specifically bought the STF-2 for the 10" driver (smaller driver - more punchy bass, less flappy farty bass) - that's why most bass rigs for stage use are arrays of 10" drivers. Also, the Hsu's have a defeatable auto on - you can force it on even when it's being sent low levels on the LFE channel - some guys here have had trouble with the auto-sensing subs not turning on.

My .02 - I'm in a similar size room to yours and I leave the STF at about 3 out of 10 on the level control. It's got room to go up if I ever decide that I need my trouser troller jiggled.

Bren R.

I know what you mean, Bren. When listening to music I sometimes miss the 10" driver. Very crisp, clean delivery. If I ever get the space and money to set up a dedicated two channel system, I'm definitely going with the smaller driver. Blended very well with the speakers.

I went from 2 Vtf-2s (2 10" drivers) to a single Stf-3 (1 12") and the 12" will out perform 2 10s any day.There is nothing "flappy" or "farty" about the Stf-3 with the 12".If you were to ask Hsu he will tell ya the same thing,one Stf-3 (and Vtf-3) will out perform 2 of the Stf-2s (or Vtf-2s).He just might know a thing or two about the subject.

In reply to:

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I went from 2 Vtf-2s (2 10" drivers) to a single Stf-3 (1 12") and the 12" will out perform 2 10s any day.

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For low end bass extension - bigger drivers go lower, but the tradeoff is tightness. Just basic physics. (Though Hsu's own specs show that both the STF-3 and STF-2 go down to 25Hz +/- 2dB, which is odd!) Bass tightness isn't as big a deal in this age of solid cones as it was during the days of paper, but if you do a search, there was a long thread here, I don't know... about a year ago? Where all the physics and electrical theory were discussed on why it is what it is.

In reply to:

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There is nothing "flappy" or "farty" about the Stf-3 with the 12".If you were to ask Hsu he will tell ya the same thing,one Stf-3 (and Vtf-3) will out perform 2 of the Stf-2s (or Vtf-2s).He just might know a thing or two about the subject.

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What do you mean by outperform? Pure SPLs? Anything subjective? There are a lot of ways something can be better.

Bren R.

So if what you say is true then why does't the different sub makers go with mutipule 10" drivers for there subs instead of a single 12".It would seem that this is what they would do if the smaller driver were a better choice for sound quality.

The Stf-3 can hit higher spls than the dual Vtf-2s.I hear no degrading of sound quality when compared.The 12" has more of a hit ya in the chest feeling when called upon to do so.

In reply to:

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So if what you say is true then why does't the different sub makers go with mutipule 10" drivers for there subs instead of a single 12".It would seem that this is what they would do if the smaller driver were a better choice for sound quality.

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Bass extension. This is probably the only time I can compare an entire product line. I demo'ed the whole STF-1-3 line (and the VTF-2), American Hi-Fi of Canada (yes, AH-F of C, makes me worder if there's a Canadian Imperial Bank of Congress, of America) has them here - I also got to hear the Ventriloquist series.

Bought along one of my two trusty test CDs (I have one for setting up subs with sine wave test tones from 20-100Hz in 5Hz increments. Also, a 100Hz cut channel, a 100Hz tone with the right channel 180 degrees out of phase (both for testing hook-ups through amplified speaker-level hookups), a short duty cycle of low frequencies - I don't have it in front of me, I forget what I use for frequencies and timing (for testing driver response), pink and white noise, and two subjective pieces, Bootsauce - Whatcha Need and NiN - Dead Souls.

I'm not sure why Hsu quotes the same bass extension for the STF-3 as the 2, while I didn't bring an SPL meter, subjective listening would say that the 3 did dip down lower than the 2. Really nothing came as a surprise. the STF-1 had the least low bass but performed remarkably well to the "punch" torture test (and the sales guy was less than impressed with playing something that sounded like Lars Ulrich playing double kick on a really REALLY big kick drum), the STF-2 was in the middle and the STF-3 went down the furthest but glossed over each individual "hit" a little. The VTF-2 unbunged definately dug deeper than the STFs and yet remained nice and responsive. (as a side note - this test probably would have caused a voice coil to weld itself together in the 80s - a testament to new driver technology!)

Since I went down with my brother (due entirely to the fact he drives something with a cargo area) the bassist in him drooled over the VTF-2, and I picked up the STF-2 (for the cheap bugger in me). In every case, there's a different want from every customer. For me, I probably could have gotten away with an STF-1, my STF-2 in it's new position (finally moved it over the weekend) now runs at a level around 2.5-3 out of 10. Whereas someone like my old neighbour would buy the biggest thing SVS makes, set it to 11 and rip off the knob.

As a side note - the Ventriloquist series sound good, they'd be a step up from say a Sony or Bose HTIAB, but the satellites are really wispy (thin, ethereal - choose your adjective) - like 4 tweeters floating around the room and all the midrange centered right in front of you in the centre channel. It was kind of distracting for me hearing a car drive by panning from FL to RL, sounded like the road noise was moving, but the engine rumble wasn't. But for the price, maybe good for a bedroom setup or a less discerning ear.

Bren R.

Just caught up to this thread....

The STF-3 is actually tuned closer to 22Hz. In 25Hz tune, the VTF-2MKII and STF-2 are virtually identical. The STF-1 has virtually the same capabilities above 32Hz as the STF-2.

Here is some real cool news:
http://www.lyrtech.com/investors/details.php?pkiddocument=191&types=N

Cool Curtis! Is this the same kinda thing that Velodyne is doing? It seems to be the coming thing. Of course, now you'll be saving your pennies for a new sub. HAH! And you thought you were done after the MX-700 and the Ideal-Lume.

hahaha...stay away from me Jack!!

I don't really know if it is the same thing as Velodyne's EQ system.....but I can't imagine it being anythingelse besides EQing. It should be pretty interesting. Everybody I know that has EQ'd their subs says it is a "revelation" of sorts.

Curtis
Is this part of the "HO" going into the VTF3?

Don't know.....I know the HO's will have new cabinets, drivers, and amps....not sure if DSP will be part of it.

Bren,
That's a nice little review of the Hsus.
I didn't know AmHF had them in town now (Dennis Penner owns that place no?).
I had contacted them about a line of audio towers once before. They sell some really swanky stuff.
You should have been around when we tried out the SVS PCi46 and my EP350. After about 20 minutes of test tones my wife came downstairs wondering if we had broke something and were trying to figure out what it was. A couple of times i had been in Advance or A&B Sound to demo some units and the salesmen weren't too impressed with me running ranges of frequency sweeps with their equipment either. In fact, one salesman at Advance actually asked me what i was doing when i was sitting in a listening chair going through the 14 songs on my listening test disc (reall music though). Why would he ask such a silly question? Did he really expect me to listen to a single song of their material and then decide on a purchase?
Silly salesman.