Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater How to convert the unconverted? BOSE owners

How do you guys go about expalining to friends and neighbors, that some speaker systems, like BOSE, are no good? I'm sure many of us have been in the situation where someone thinks that they have a real home theater, then they ask you what you think. My neighbor did this to me the other day. He has a BOSE system, he knows I'm into home theater. "Hey come and have a listen to my system, what do you think?" I hate this question.

It's very difficult to say you don't like BOSE or whatever HTIB they might have, without coming off as a snob. So when my neighbor asked my opinion, I hesitated A LOT, because I didn't want to sound like a jerk. I ended up telling him something to the effect that most knowledgeable audiophiles don't have much regard for BOSE. I went on to explain that you can get a lot more performance for your money from other companies. He didn't like this answer, And I don't think he really believed me. IT's hard for one person to overcome all the brainwashing of Bose's advertising budget.

This guy is a big wine conessiuer (sp?)so I tried to use a wine alalogy on him. Bose speakers, are like the wine you buy in a box. Sure it meets all the same criteria as other wine, close to the same color, it has alcohol in it, made from grapes, etc. But it's not good quality. It's hard to explain if you are not a wine expert why it's not as good, you just know it isn't. The same with Bose, I can explain in audiphile jargon why Axiom's are much better, but if you're not an audiophile, and you don't really understand the terminology it just sounds like a bunch of mumbo jumbo. So I think my neighbor thinks I'm an audio snob, and he thinks Bose is worth the money.

How do you guys approach the subject, or do you just avoid it entirely, and leave them blissfully ignorant?

Probably should just say, "Sounds pretty good considering how tiny those speakers are." There's not much point in raining on someone's parade - especially a neighbor/friend.

I'd be pissed too if I bought a 3K HTIB then finding out it's a mockery for people who know audio, or like me - I'm no expert but I can research/read!

As I posted in another thread a few minutes ago, I also have a neigbor with Bose cubes, and he thinks his system sounds as good as the Halo/Axiom, I just nod and agree. No reason to to try and explain it, he also has a cabinet quality table saw and other tools, ones I would like to have. But he does not even have the basics of building somehting, so he always wanting my opinion on his wood projects, I give the same responses as the speakers.

i think what you said to him was a very honest and forward approach. by telling him that you can get much better bang for buck with other speakers, you wernt lying.. you were being honest.. now, i wouldnt go on and on about how crappy they are, and how they are totally driven by the marketing hype and how paul harvey couldnt tell the difference anyway.. just point out the facts, and if he wishes, let him investigate furthur.. so i guess its half what you said, and half what bigwill said.. be honest, but dont dump on his parade.

BTW- i think the wine analogy is perfect. the poor guy dont know it, but he got a 'Franzia' HT system, at a 'Crystal' price.. but, i like that angle..its one that he should have been able to understand.. if you want to make him feel better... go buy some really cheap wine, and tell him to come taste it cause its the 'best wine you have ever had'.. i am sure he will be honest and set you straight...

bigjohn

I've had a Bose Acounstimass-7 system for at least 10 years. At the time the WAF was most important. The small speakers were the thing for her. I have to admit that for middle of the road sound, they are fine. I knew what I was missing and was satisfied.

Now the son and I are really into DVDs. We want to hear all the effects, high and low.

You won't be able to tell a Bose guy what he's missing if he doesn't want to hear it. You might even put a $3000 system next to his and he will say "But look what you had to spend".

You know better.

Let it go and say "sounds nice"

I usually go with "Do you like it?" They always say "Yes." Then I say "Cool." And try to avoid the topic in the future. That's for about 90% of people. For the folks (almost all men) that I know who are really interested in developing the best system they can, I tell them to do research on the web and something like "If they were significantly cheaper, they'd be fine. But at $3000.00 they are way over priced for what you get." People are less inclined to feel judged with that approach.

jr

If your wife asks you what you think of a hat BEFORE she buys it, she's looking for your honest opinion. If she asks what you think of the hat AFTER she's purchased it, she's looking for reinforcement of her decision.

Assuming the hat is a genuine "Bose," you have a choice. Tell her the truth and sleep on the couch, or LIE LIKE A DOG and get a good night's sleep.

jack- thats a very good theory.. but i dont sleep with my neighbor..

so he is gonna get the truth, but put in a nice way.. but i agree with james.. i ask if they like it, the answer is always "yes", so i say "well thats all that matters". then, i suggest for him to go do some research, and then they will get a clue..

bigjohn

It was a metaphor, John, a METAPHOR. But, I'm glad to know you don't sleep with your neighbor. I'll bet he is too.

I typically ask them what they think of the system, and explain that is more important than what I think.

They sometimes ask what I have, and want to listen. I let them listen to my system, and answer questions they may have that deal with my system. But I am careful not to compare it to their's. I let them make comparisons, and if they decide they need to look at upgrades, graciously will offer help.

I see little value in demeaning a persons choices, especially if they are really proud of them. It is also helpful to know a bit about where they are coming from and heading to, audiowise.

It's funny you bring this topic up. IN my consumer behavior marketing class we were discussing the research that manufacturers do to find out if there product is in the consumers' awareness, evoked, or inert set. So as an example, the instructor asked the class to name the brands of Stereo's that we all knew (awareness set). I of course stayed quiet until people started slowing down with their suggestions (Sony, Pioneer, RCA, Bose, etc. were all mentioned). I mentioned NAD, Denon, Onkyo, Rotel, and adcom and then the instructor had me stop. I then told her that I could go on and on. After the list was compiled she asked the class to give here a list of our evoked sets (choices of stereo's that we would actually consider). Then she asked us for our inert sets (the choices of stereo's we WOULDN'T consider) I mentioned Bose, and half the class let out a gasp. Because of the class reaction, she had me explain myself. I calmly told here the any self-respecting audiophile or audiophile publication will never touch Bose speakers. I then explained how their extensive and intelligent marketing schemes (she loved this) have brainwashed the mass market to think that Bose is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I also stated that I was a former Bose owner and that Bose introduced me into the pursuit of higher fidelity, but Bose was to overpriced for the minimal quality they offer. The rest of the class had a "ya right" look on their face. Then one guy raised his hand and responded with, "I totally agree" and then the rest of the class just froze. After this, we moved on, but you could feel the tension in the room. If I couldn't drop probably everyone in the room, I probably would have been threatened. I must admit that I had a semi-snobbish attitude when I said it but I wasn't intimidated by any of my unknowledgeable classmates.

I thought it was a very funny episode. The even funnier part is that every one in the class graduates this spring or in the next year, so that means the entire class is essentially well educated, but very naive. It's funny, but at the same time, scary.

great story..

and if all those class mates are due to graduate next semester and start out on their 'new' life.. lets hope they remember that class discussion, and get some decent equip when the time comes.. at a minimum, you have at least opened the door for their minds to reconsider the expected norm.

fun read...

bigjohn

I like a lot of these responses.

I agree that avoiding being negative is a good idea. Two other things. First, demonstrate your system to him using material he is familiar with. Some people don't know what they are missing AND are receptive to new experiences and new ideas (you need both). Second, make it about you and not about him or his stuff. For instance, you could say "I've heard (or owned) Bose speakers; while I think they are great for some people, I have found that the system I have now is very satisfying for me. There is a lot of competition in the home audio/video market, and different people weigh certain attributes differently or perceive products in different ways."

I mean really, Bose is scorned because it seems overpriced relative to its sonic performance. I personally don't think Bose systems sound very good. HOWEVER, some people may justifiably place an ABSOLUTE premium on ease of use and/or speaker size. You cannot fault them for having different priorities. The problem seems to be when a Bose owner thinks he has purchased credibility or status in the eyes of people who have more than a passing interest in how things sound.

The other conversation I sometimes have with folks like this has to do with the science of speaker size. You know, it's a physics problem and size really does matter; there is no magic bullet relative to moving enough air around in your room for a satisfying experience. Bose shifts some of that burden by crossing over to the subwoofer at a relatively high point. TO MY EARS, that is distracting because the sound is more easily localized and seems less spacious. Again, your comments should be all about you and your ears, not him and his system.

I think James' approach is best, though. "Do YOU like it?" puts the judgement where it belongs.

This is a direct quote from Bose:

"The bass module that comes with the AM7 is NOT a subwoofer so you would have
to hook up a powered (non BOSE) subwoofer directly to the SUB OUT jack on your
receiver."

Nothing is worse than sticking your finger in somebody's eye who has just spent $3,000 on those little plastic bastids. A simple - "That sounds nice" and a grin will make everybody's day go much better.

Then you just need to hope he doesn't hear your setup and realize you've lied to him.

Of course, those Bose would sound pretty good after they have been broken in for 150 hours and if they were connected with top 'o the line Monster Cable stuff.

Very funny!
That is an appropriate place for such statements, eh? The "learning environment".

I have to ad that my neighbor has had his Bose system for a very long time and is looking to upgrade, and learn more about HT/Stereo in general.

It's very hard to me to just grin and say, yeah it sounds great. I feel like it's my duty to educate them, I feel like I am doing them a favor. If the guy just dropped $3k on a system I would never say it sounds like S__t, I am too honest sometimes.

Even people who want to learn about HT, have a hard time believing that Bose is no good. It's not really about Bose, any HTIB is a waste og money IMHO. If you want home theater, and only have $700, you might as well save your money until you have $2k or so, then you can piece together something pretty decent.

Bose does make some good products.

Their aviation headphones are used by many pilots, and thier noise cancelling headphones get praise.

Come to think of it.....I do not know if they are good or not.....so it could just be the marketing thing again.

For me, when asked, I try to give an honest thought, but keep it light.

Bottomline, if they can not hear the difference, it really is not worth explaining.

They have Bose, so their speakers are tiny. Have them bring over the speakers for an A/B comparison and see what they think then. You don't have to tell them their speakers are no good, let the speakers do the talking. If they don't hear it, then I guess Bose are perfectly fine for them and they can't/don't want to be able to tell the difference.

My co worker at work got a Bose last week. He saw me browsing for speakers (I drooling over some B&W 800's) and went on this rant about how good the Bose are. He also mentioned that I should get some monster cable while I was at it.

He did not stop even after he saw me snap 3 or 4 pencils. So after a few deep breaths I said that there are better speakers to be had for the same amount of money. Man was he pissed. How could I say that about a company that does all that "Research" well he said "R&D". Also Bose was started by an India and how could I not show loyalty to a fellow Indian blah blah.

Actually in India (during my business course) we talked about how Bose is a success story as a business strategy nothing to do with quality of the speakers themselfs.

But more to the point, when I mentioned all the HiFi web sites like (Audioholics, Enjoy the music, Stereophile, 6 moons) he drew a blank. He pointed me to Circuit City where HTIB's were on sale and said if I did not like what he bought, I should buy the latest Bose lifestyle 48. He also claims that an MP3 sounds better than a CD (wav) as it is DIGITAL.

Some people will never learn. If we are to coexist in peace, just ask them if they are happy with what they have and I am happy for them.

PS: He also said I should buy a Dell instead of assemblying PC's even when I showed him a picture of my watercooled PC. Man, who brought this topic up? now I need a walk to cool off :-)

Also a linky : http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html

Another vote for not raining on their parade. You need to step in when they are thinking about what brand to purchase, not afterwards.

If they get a chance to hear your system and suddenly think theirs is crappy, make sure you explain how hard it is to get the best sound out of small speakers but that Bose does a pretty good job -- and that a lot of people still buy systems with small satellite speakers because of the size & appearance factors. Let them enjoy their purchase.

just tell them that their tiny tv speakers is to bose what the bose speakers are to your axioms,that ougt to make them feel like they wasted their money,just kidding,but really,most people that had no system before are blown away just by having sound coming at them from all directions,let em be happy

When I bought my 60ti's I put my Paradigm monitor 7's up for sale on an online BB at my wife's office. The guy that bought them from me had laid down 1k on a pair of either 601's or 701's 6 month's previous. I remember when I demoed them for him using his material and all he could do was grin and shake his head, he wasn't long loading them in to his car.
He told me his neighbour was interested in his Bose but he would be selling them at a considerable loss.

Al

In reply to:

---

Their aviation headphones are used by many pilots, and thier noise cancelling headphones get praise.

---

It's a marketing ploy again Curtis. I don't know of very many professional pilots that use 'em, too much money and they don't sound any different than a set of DCs sold at a much lower price. The private pilot sector probably buys 'em up because 'it's aviation' and they don't work in the aviation field so therefore they *have* the money to spend on stuff like that.

This is a terrific discussion, with lots of great and funny posts, but have any of you ever run into this one?
I swear this is true.
A buddy of mine, very well educated, incredible mechanic, craftsman, computer guy, the whole shebang. He is #1 on my list for first pick after a nuclear holocost.
And he spends decent money on audio gear. $300 Yamaha reciever, $400 Polks, buck & a half CD player. Not Crap.
And for the last 2 years he has had his speakers sitting in the entranceway between the living room and dining room. One on one side of the opening facing into the livingroom, and the other on the other side of the opening facing into the dining room. three feet apart. facing in polar opposite directions. I swear to God.
He could proabably take every piece of equiptment he owns apart and put it back together better.
And whenever i am over there, I ask, Man? What The F&^K???
What are you doing with this stuff like this?
Last weekend I told him, "Hey, you know if you just Bi-Wired those speakers backwards, I guess you might get something like MONO out of each, and you wouldn't be missing so much when you are in the other room."
He just looked at me (knowing that I was busting his chops again) and grinned, and said, "Oh Man, it just doesen't matter that much!"
I just shake my head.
Anyone else know someone who WILL spend the money on NOT CRAP kind of stuff, but then just abuses the hell out of it?

How do you convert the bose owners? Give them links to this post!

My brother has built himself a H/T room in his house. He ran expensive wires behind the wall and wants to connect BOSE to them. I have been diligently sending him emails of articles, forum posts, etc on how the audio world is on to BOSE and that what he has heard in the past is not accurate sound. He has made many excuses as to why he thinks BOSE are the greatest.
But I think I am wearing him down. . .Or he has bought the BOSE system already and knows better than to tell me he has done so.

Wow, I have to chime in here. I have a close friend who is adamant about Bose. He currently has the 5 cube system that he's had for a few years and thinks they are great. The funny thing is they do not even sound good for Bose since he has them hooked up to an old receiver that can't even do crossover settings. The system sounds like it's missing a big range of sounds yet he thinks it sounds good. I've always been direct about my thoughts on the Bose and at least offered to bring my receiver over and hook them up to see what they can really sound like on a good receiver. At least it would be better than what it sounds like now.

He recently went to a Bose store and looked at the new Lifestyle 48 Home Theater System. He just couldn't stop at telling me the cool features of it and how it sounded. He really was repeating all the things the sales guy was telling him (all those marketing and advertising dollars in action). This system cost $4,000.

Now on the plus side for him is that he has never bashed my system. He loves my home theater system and thinks it sounds incredible. The one big reason he won't buy anything like mine is because of the size. The M80's are big. I feel that would be the only big reason to get a Bose system. And in my honest opinion that isn't a good enough reason unless you need the WAF which I don't have.

As much as he likes my system and as much as I bash Bose, he is always going to be a die hard Bose fan. And there is nothing you can do about it.

sorry to hear of his tragedy...ill pray for a complete recovery

Wow shaq, that's a nice looking setup you got!

Sad, but true. Some people can't be helped....

Yea, I was just checking Shag's system out, very nice Shag!

shag- well, if there is a WAF, and he dont like the BIG M80's, have you maybe tried to lean him towards a bookshelf, like a M22's, and maybe some QS4's? those are MUCH smaller, and they could be mounted very nicely with the FMB's. and he could get an awesome receiver, the best SVS or HSU sub he could want, and stil come WAY under the $4K that the lifestyle system would cost. heck, he could even get everything in custom finishes to appease the WAF, and still be inder $4K.

just as a friend, i would seriously just point out other options avail to him before he goes and wastes that kind of money..

bigjohn

My ex-boss bought a HTIB, don't remember which brand. I advised him what to buy beforhand, but he didn't listen. And he only wanted to spend $500 or so. OK, if you want to spend only $500 you can't knock a guy for buying a HTIB. So I finally go to his house, and I see that he has put the "subwoofer", inside of a cabinet with the door closed! I expalined that this is a big problem, it needs to be in the room not inside of some furniture with it's door closed. He says it sounds fine, and that his wife won't let him put it in the room. He also did not have the rear surrounds hooked up at all due to the wife's orders. These guys are marrying the wrong women. I would never consider marrying someone who tried to control how I set up my audio equipment. Yes... I am married. (putting flame jacket on now)

My friend doesn't have a wife nor a need for any approval factor of any kind. He's just a Bose fan, plain and simple.

If he went with the M22's or a similar setup, it would be much cheaper than the Bose system and sound x times better.

No offense to you married guys, but everyone has to have some kind of hobbies that you enjoy. If being an audiophile is it, than so be it. Why not start criticizing your wife's hobbies? (I'll put on my flame jacket too)

Thx for the compliments guys.

The WAF can be a powerful thing. Heck my acceptance factor also had me looking at Bose at the beginning. We both wanted a good sounding, unabtrusive system (the latter being my wifes top priority and the former being mine) and with all the hype Bose creates I naturally checked them out first hoping to get the best of both worlds. I realized size does matter and I could do a lot better for sound at less $ (always a major driver for frugal me). That and luckily my wife, the great gal she is, readjusted her top priority to accepting my judgement and what would make me most happy.

But for lots of folks asthetics (like small) is really important in the decision criteria. I'm sure Bose realizes these type of folks are a large part of their consumer market and the advertising is designed to reinforce that thinking.

But yup, all you can do is try and offer some alternative ideas like Bigjohn suggested and hope they are altimately happy with whatever they decide. That and thank your lucky stars (or your good wife choosing ability) the WAF isn't your prime driver!

Paul

I'd considered a tit for tat approach for equal opportunity hobby bashing, but the fact is my wife doesn't have any hobbies that monopolize an entire room like my HT hobby does. It's a testament to how much she loves me that she allows my equipment to dictate (or at least restrict) how the living room furniture is arranged.

heres a WAF for ya..

my wife comes home from school last night, and tells me that one of the other professors up there was talking about how his brother was a "stereo freak", and that he had just spent $35K on a new stereo system for his house. she said he went into detail about some of the equip, and what sort of stuff he had bought. after she told her story, she just kinda looked up at the Onkyo 701, and said with a grin, "i guess you spending $3000 on all this stuff aint that bad after-all".. now thats WAF, but in a good way!!

so thats what i do from here on out.. to make her think its OK to get the $800 SVS sub, i need to convince her its WAY better than the $3000 earthquake sub..

bigjohn

In reply to:

---

heres a WAF for ya..

my wife comes home from school last night, and tells me that one of the other professors up there was talking about how his brother was a "stereo freak", and that he had just spent $35K on a new stereo system for his house. she said he went into detail about some of the equip, and what sort of stuff he had bought. after she told her story, she just kinda looked up at the Onkyo 701, and said with a grin, "i guess you spending $3000 on all this stuff aint that bad after-all".. now thats WAF, but in a good way!!

so thats what i do from here on out.. to make her think its OK to get the $800 SVS sub, i need to convince her its WAY better than the $3000 earthquake sub..

bigjohn

---

Yep, a few days ago whenever my wife asked about my spending habits as of late I just whipped up the Axiom message board, zipped right over to a couple of Dennis' threads, showed her a couple of the pics from his Haxiom gear and said to her....'Honey, each and every one of these folks on the board have a system just like this, mine's, er, uh, I mean OURS is a very conservative system!'

She just rolled her eyes.

yah but then my wife looks at the rest of society and says you guys on that board aren't the norm. And I respond, nor are you and aren't we lucky we found each other. And she rolls her eyes (cause I hardly ever say such stuff), gives me a peck on the check and goes back to doing whatever she was before.

Paul

Very smooth.

Actually a lot of people spend even more $$ than we do on their HT setups, they just don't spend it as wisely...

Hey Shag,

Checked out your pics. Nice system. Have you thought of putting a shelf just above your TV so that you could drop down the VP150 a foot or two? It could really improve the seamlessness between center and mains and anchor the dialog a bit more.

we could have hobbies that keep us out of the house like drinking and women. lol

drinking is not a hobby. It is a way of life.

i'll sheckond that!

As with all good things, however, moderation is key.

ya killed it, bitch! jk

women is not a hobby. It is a way of life.

bigjohn

My Wife; Bless her(this time)had an interesting, and maybe insightfull comment to make on this subject.

She was talking to some ladies receintly about TV and home theater, and after commenting on how much better our system sounds(Wow!)with our new set-up, not one, but Two gals commented about getting HTIB, because of the small speakers and all. It seems that the bottom line, for them, and perhaps a large percentage of the listening/viewing population, is that they are not concerned with the sound, as much as they are in "just having" a home theater system. Like having a required kitchen appliance or something, kind of a status thing. It's not as though they care so much about whether the system sounds good or bad, but that they just don't care at all. (After all, having spent how many years listening to their TVs' built-in speakers...)

An added point; one of the gals was excited to comment on the fact that one of her "little speakers" is hidden in an artificial potted plant, completely out of sight!

How about making surrounds that hide inside a faux lamp? The lamp shade could hide a fairly large speaker, there would be good WAF, and palcement at the ends of the couch would be a snap.
You can send me the check later Axiom.

And two lamps to me, too, thank you.
(Actually WAF ins't a problem)..UH...(with the sound system)
But, hey, the lamps DO sound like the start of a good idea-patio rocks don't look right on our end tables!

You know what, that idea actually doesn't suck.

You would have a place to run the wires, and you could even have a REAL lamp in there if you engineered it right.

Brilliant!

What's up with the Guiness link?

You could even use multi-watt 3-way bulbs so you could turn them down, so they wouldn't be...uh...so bright!

its the BRILLIANT!! its a commercial reference.. if you Tivo, you will never see it...

the commercials are pretty funny though... but i dont like guiness..

bigjohn

I can't help it, gotta say it:

4-way: 80, 60, 50, or40, which would be the "Brightest"

OK, OK, Or the "Dullest"

Not a bad idea! , how about one of these for mid towers like m22
http://www.japanesegifts.com/alamp.asp

I like that Japanese lamps link. Thanks!

I was just trying to get this thread to digress further. I'm not sorry. But F107 keeps trying to get us back on track. What's with that?

You would think people are passionately dissing Bose here, i mean...6 pages of posts!...yet here you are discussing lampspeakers... which btw is an excellent idea!

In reply to:

---

Hey Shag,

Checked out your pics. Nice system. Have you thought of putting a shelf just above your TV so that you could drop down the VP150 a foot or two? It could really improve the seamlessness between center and mains and anchor the dialog a bit more.

---

Yes I've thought about and explored some ideas. On another thread around here, others even drew up diagrams for me suggesting the same.

I'm not that anal about it and don't really notice it at all. Other's may notice it, but as most everyone says, if it sounds good to my ears it is just fine." Plus I'm too busy right now to bother with making some kind of shelf.

In reply to:

---

women is not a hobby. It is a way of life.

---

I still consider women a hobby. A WIFE is a way of life.

You got that straight.

(I am not complaining, though.)

Uh....But, which track is that?

Ok, I know.... the patio rocks with speakers inside DO look OK on my end tables, but the wife WOULD rather have speaker-lamps.

Remember those German speakers we were discussing a few days or weeks ago? The ones that look like jet engine inlet bellmouths? Now THEY would make classy, colorfull lampshade speakers!

On another track:

Another reason why Bose and other HTIB sell so well? Here's a theory: Maybe cause the sound is kinda like "no highs, no lows, must be...."Sanyo...or GE or RCA or Sony or any number of other standard ol' fashioned TV sets with lil' bitty built-in speakers that are "easier" to listen to than a full blown quality sounding HT system like the ones "we'uns" all have.(chuckle)

Think about it.

Go and listen to one of your kids bedroom TVs and what do you hear? Voices are always intelligible cause the music isn't trying to compete with it. The bass-cause it ain't there-isn't adding to the confusion of an active scene. Your attention isn't drawn to the clarity of the music-and away from the story-cause the clarity of the music is just so-so, so, who cares? So, if you want TV sound from all directions, get a system that puts TV speakers...in all directions. Great, I'll bet, for those who just want to watch TV...

(and hide their speakers in flower pots-or lamps-or rocks!!!)

Let's of people just don't know any better. Think when you were first getting started and knew little to nothing about speakers and HT. Personally, I was looking at the Onkyo HTIB at first. I liked that I could get everything for about $500. I was close to getting this, but started doing some more research, listened to more speakers, grew my budget, and ended up with Axioms a couple of months later. I think many people find that, like that it is small and affordable, and truly don't know what they would be missing with better speakers, so they get it. They have something that in their experience sounds good (it's still a big upgrade from the TV speakers) at a good price as well.

In reply to:

---

Let's of people just don't know any better. Think when you were first getting started and knew little to nothing about speakers and HT. Personally, I was looking at the Onkyo HTIB at first. I liked that I could get everything for about $500. I was close to getting this, but started doing some more research, listened to more speakers, grew my budget, and ended up with Axioms a couple of months later. I think many people find that, like that it is small and affordable, and truly don't know what they would be missing with better speakers, so they get it. They have something that in their experience sounds good (it's still a big upgrade from the TV speakers) at a good price as well.

---

I totally agree....amazing what the advice from a friend and a little research on the web can do, huh!