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M3s or M40s ? Back on the wheel of reincarnation.
#80778 02/06/05 07:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
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axiomite
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axiomite
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Some months ago I picked up a pair of M2s to make a nice little bedroom system. I loved the sound, but wanted a bit more bass extension. One thing led to another, including a subwoofer then M60s in the bedroom and every other combination you might imagine. Now I have an M60-based system in the basement (missing only QSs to make it complete) and the M2s are back in the bedroom, where (you guessed it) a bit more bass extension would be nice.

So... first thought is M3s. They seem to sound a bit fuller and people are happy with them as standalone speakers but I'm actually real happy with the M2s except for a particular class of music (70s Pink Floyd, Genesis etc...) where the need is deep bass not lots of bass. Echoes (Floyd) and Dancing With the Moonlit Night (Genesis) are good examples of where the bass pedals really add something to the overall sound.

I doubt M3s will really carry the pedals but not sure. The room is 13x17 so the room modes are in the right places as long as there is some bass to excite them. As far as I can see the M2s and M3s roll off at about the same point but the M2 rolls off more steeply than the M3 and the M3 starts a bit higher because of the bass "bump", implying that there might be more of an audible difference than the specs would indicate. A couple of reviews mentioned that "the M3 puts out the bass but has trouble at high volumes while the M2 doesn't even try".

The M40 seems like the perfect answer -- again, I don't need lots of volume and don't need "kick-ass bass", just want good full-range sound at comfortable volume.

I don't want to get into subs again; without an AV receiver I was never happy with the sub/main blending although with the HK AVR the M2/sub combo is great. Another option is to haul the M60s back upstairs but they're just a bit too physically large for the bedroom (they scare people) and I would like to have something a bit larger than M2s in the HT system.

Thoughts ? Anyone running M3s or M22s standalone with the same musical tastes ? How about M40s ? I know the M22s will have some real advantages over the M2s but AFAIK they aren't significantly different in the deep bass.



M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
Re: M3s or M40s ? Back on the wheel of reincarnation.
#80779 02/08/05 04:20 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,351
connoisseur
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i would suggest the m50's, to be honest with you.

Re: M3s or M40s ? Back on the wheel of reincarnati
#80780 02/08/05 07:05 AM
Joined: May 2003
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shareholder in the making
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They'd be awful huge for a bedroom. I'd go with the 40s.


......

aw heck, just get them both.


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: M3s or M40s ? Back on the wheel of reincarnati
#80781 02/08/05 05:38 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 139
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You won't go wrong the M40's. And, you can be another member of our small-but-proud posse of M40 owners!

Re: M3s or M40s ? Back on the wheel of reincarnati
#80782 02/09/05 01:27 PM
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axiomite
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axiomite
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>>They'd be awful huge for a bedroom. I'd go with the 40s.

It's funny... when I ordered the M60s I was thinking they would be about M40 size. Imagine my surprise when the 60s came out of the boxes.

I definitely don't have room for M60s and the 50s are only a bit smaller. The 40s are probably as big as I'm going to be able to fit... and the bedroom is actually smaller in the new place. Hmmm... don't like where this is going.

>>You won't go wrong the M40's. And, you can be another member of our small-but-proud posse of M40 owners!

40s do look like the way to go. Nice setup, BTW.

I had been wondering how much bass difference there really was between M2, M3, M22 and M40 so took the soundstage magazine NRC response curves for each (using "listening window", ie +/- 15 degrees only) and overlaid them into a single chart. Interesting :

1. The curves for M3 and M40 look very much alike as do the curves for M2 and M22.

2. The M3 and M22 both have a "hump" around 100 hz; the M2 and M40 do not. The M3 hump starts to rise at 150 and keeps rising down to about 90 while the M22 hump starts at the same point but goes back to "flat" at 120, ie much smaller hump.

3. The M3 and M2 curves join up from 80 hz down to about 60 hz, then the M2 curve keeps going down while the M3 levels off again.

4. At 50 Hz relative to the average for the rest of the frequency range, the speakers are down by :

- M22 11 dB
- M3 13 dB
- M2 16 dB
- M40 steps down a couple of dB at 200 Hz then is surprisingly flat to 40 Hz

5. The "midrange dip" on M3/M40 relative to M2/M22 is about 5dB at most, around 3 KHz. It starts at 1 Khz and disappears around 10 KHz but is fairly smooth.

6. The M40 response does some "jumping around" between 700 and 900 Hz, no idea what causes that. Maybe unique to the sample ? Almost looks like someone opening the door of the room while the tests were running

Based on this I guess I can conclude :

- There is a noticeable but not huge improvement in bass going from M2 to M3 or M22

- M22 bass is actually a bit better than M3, although M3 has a more prominent peak above 100 Hz which probably adds to the impression of bass fullness

- M40 is impressive right down into the bass region -- response at 35 Hz is the same as M2 at 70 Hz or M3/M22 at 65 Hz

All of the above is anechoic response from one set of magazine reviews over the last three years and not necessarily representative of in-room behavior blah blah blah...

For moderate room size and standalone stereo usage the M40 looks pretty hard to beat. I understand that they won't really play any louder than M3s but that is not a big concern for me.

Looks like I have three options then :

1. Try to find a room & furniture layout where I can "hide" the M60s in the bedroom and not have them seem so out of place (won't be able to do that in the new place anyways and I have plans for the 60s)

2. Go with M40s. Looks like the obvious answer.

Only downside to getting M40s is that for the price I could get QS8s for the HT system, which would be real nice but wouldn't do anything for the upstairs sound ;(

3. Admit that even M40s are going to be hard to place in the new house and go with larger bookshelves looking for a slight improvement in bass. M22s are a bit better than M3s in that regard and have some other advantages but also the price is getting into M40/QS8 territory.

5. Get a little sub and live happily ever after, just don't listen too closely to the crossover range.

I had an option 6 which was looking at some older Axiom AX2s from eBay but from the reviews it looks like the older units didn't have the same wonderful midrange behaviour and soundstage that the current models offer.

Hmm. M3s and M22s don't seem to offer enough improvement in the bass region to justify getting new speakers, although in hindsight buying M3s instead of M2s would probably have saved me a lot of money (might have stayed with them instead of getting M60s ).

M40s or a sub would both provide great response, probably M40s would sound better without relying on the (asymmetrical) crossover in the sub. M22s give something like 5-6 dB improvement at 50 Hz (nothing to sneeze at; nice in other ways and I could mix and match in the HT system later.


M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
Re: M3s or M40s ? Back on the wheel of reincarnati
#80783 02/09/05 03:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
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axiomite
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axiomite
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OK, new strategy. After all of the above it became clear that M40s are the way to go, but I don't want to drop the $$ today until I get a bit more of my new house paid for (or at least get the old one ready for sale).

Part of the problem was that I had my megachanger on the upstairs system, so it was the place where all my music was accessible. The downstairs system just had the DVD player and a small stack of CDs.

For the short term, I think I'm going to pick up a new DVD/DVD-A/SACD player (probably the pioneer 578), move my existing Sony DVD player upstairs along with the stack of CDs and move the megachanger downstairs with the big AV receiver and the M60s.

Won't improve the bass response upstairs, but will move all the bass content away from the upstairs system

The only remaining "imperfect" is that I currently have the Atoms pulling surround duty in the basement and M2s upstairs. The Atoms don't seem to match the M60s all that well, but maybe some crossover tweaking (get the crossover up above the mid-bass hump) will help that. Worst case I move the Atoms upstairs but I really do prefer the M2s there after direct A/B testing.

Medium term solution will be some QS8s in the basement.

Thanks again guys.




M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
Re: M3s or M40s ? Back on the wheel of reincarnati
#80784 02/16/05 04:50 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
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Likes: 7
axiomite
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axiomite
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So, let this be a lesson to you all. Don't fight it, you just postpone the inevitable and buy even more stuff.

I picked up a Pioneer 578 just like I threatened, installed it in the basement (HT) moved the Sony DVD player upstairs, and moved the megachanger downstairs.

Ahh. Nice bass. Everything sounds great. Actually the imaging sucks because one M60 is near a stone fireplace and the other is near a big hole in the wall where the bar opens into the room. And the bass booms.

OK, move everything around. Angle the system to give a sweet spot where the reflected sound off the stone fireplace can't hit your ears. Play with the M60-to-wall distance to get rid of the boom (turned out to be one M60 too close to the side wall).

Better. Bass response is still a bit uneven but much improved. Really need to move the system back to the other end of the room to get really good sound, but this is still pretty nice.

Carry a stack of CDs upstairs which don't need deep bass to sound "complete" Wonderful. Glorious.

Nuts. I still miss the bass.

New plan. Order QS8s from the factory outlet. I have a big honkin sub downstairs so M2s as mains work mighty fine. Move the M60s back upstairs. Try not to think about how big they are. Sounds great. Happy.

We're all quite mad, you know.


M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
Re: M3s or M40s ? Back on the wheel of reincarnati
#80785 02/16/05 04:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 139
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If the size bothers you THAT much, I'll trade you my M40's for your M60's...straight across, no questions asked. You can thank me later.

Re: M3s or M40s ? Back on the wheel of reincarnati
#80786 02/16/05 06:46 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
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Likes: 7
axiomite
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axiomite
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It's good to know people are looking out for me. Thanks !!


M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
Re: M3s or M40s ? Back on the wheel of reincarnati
#80787 02/16/05 07:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,034
connoisseur
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Your room sounds almost exactly like my room; fireplace and all! I can't just can't move my system around, though....Arrrrgh!!!

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