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unfair comparison? M40ti vs Mission 782
#6909 11/19/02 04:27 PM
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craigb Offline OP
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I just ordered a F.O. pair of M40tis and can't wait to get them. I've been living with a pair of Mission 782s for about 3 weeks and need to decide if I'm going to keep them, and I want to see how the M40s compare. It may be grossly unfair (the Missions sell for $700US with a claimed list of $1400US), but from all the audiophile press reviews I read of the M3 and by extension the M40, I think it could be very interesting. Those reviews were so glowing I didn't think it would be necessary to try the M50 or M60 (not to mention their size would be overly dominating in our living room).

As soon as they get here and I've had a chance to do some listening, I'll try to post something. It will probably be Sunday or Monday.

Craig in Indy


Re: unfair comparison? M40ti vs Mission 782
#6910 11/25/02 12:36 AM
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craigb Offline OP
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I've got my review ready to post. Only problem is it's long. About 1700 words. Is that a problem?

Re: unfair comparison? M40ti vs Mission 782
#6911 11/25/02 12:37 AM
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fhw Offline
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Absolutely not! The more detailed the review, the better.


Re: unfair comparison? M40ti vs Mission 782
#6912 11/25/02 03:42 AM
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OK, here it is...it's so long, I hope it doesn't cause any problems with the message board or server space...

As I mentioned in my previous post, I ordered a pair of M40Tis from the Outlet to see how they would compare with a pair of Mission 782s that I’ve had on hand for about 3 weeks. I’m at the point that I need to decide whether to keep the Missions or send them back (another one of those 30-day at-home audition deals), and I had read such great things about Axioms, particularly the M3, that I thought it would be instructive to compare the floorstanding version of the M3 against these Missions.

For reference, the system consists of a B&K ST140 amp, Adcom GFP-710 preamp, a Sony SCD-CE775 SACD player (modified by Matt Anker) and a Denon DP-750 turntable with an Infinity Black Widow tonearm and a Sumiko Bluepoint Special cartridge. Interconnects are Straight Wire Symphony II (preamp/amp) and LAT International IC-80 Mk II (SACD player). Speaker cables are the modest Audioquest Type 2+. The listening room is about 15’x 24’x 8’, with the speakers 4’ from one side wall, 4’-6” from the other side wall and 5’ from the back wall. They’re about 6’ apart, and the listening spot is about 9’ from a line drawn between the fronts of the speakers. The speakers themselves are toed-in just barely, less than half of what would be required to “aim” them at the listening spot. This seemed to provide the best imaging for both pairs.

For starters let me add my praises to everyone else’s regarding the apparent lack of visible flaws in the Outlet speakers I received. These are Boston Cherry, and I literally cannot find the flaw that put them in the Outlet stock. I haven’t gone so far as to set up halogen worklights around the speakers and pore over them with a jeweller’s loupe, but a quick look at each surface and every edge and corner under broad daylight revealed no clues. They’re beautiful speakers, especially with the grilles off. Both drivers look gorgeous, though I admit I’m still getting used to the rather “gnarly” appearance of the ports.

As far as the sound goes, let me start out by saying these are wonderful speakers in their own right, and astonishing speakers when their price is factored in. The first thing I noticed about the M40Tis after hearing the Missions for a few weeks was an immediate impression of greater bass output. On paper, the Axiom’s –3dB point is 8Hz lower than the Mission’s, which is no doubt noticeable, but I have a feeling the major cause for the perceived difference is the Missions’ side-firing woofer, which is proving to be a little hard to coax into sounding its best at my listening position. Its quality isn’t bad (in fact, it’s very good), just the amplitude is a bit lacking, though it improved substantially when I got around 100 hours on the speakers, and still continues to improve.

The second thing I noticed is that the Axioms image like crazy. The Missions are among the best I’ve heard at this particular phenomenon, and the Axioms are sooo close. They’re just the tiniest bit lacking in 3-dimentionality, but the image they throw is rock-solid, plus it doesn’t seem to waver much when I sit outside the “sweet spot.” I assume this is due to unusually good dispersion patterns, especially for the tweeter. One side note about that tweeter: I’ve read a number of posts that hint at and sometimes outright complain about Axiom’s tendency toward being overly bright, saying that perhaps the culprit is the titanium tweeter. I heard none of that at all. The highs are remarkably smooth. In fact, the Missions have a silk dome tweeter, and I would say both speakers were pretty comparable in the extension and presence of their highs. If anything, the additional psycho-acoustical heft from the bass of the Axioms made the Missions sound like the brighter speaker, though not by much. Since most of these comments have been in regard to the bigger tower models, perhaps what people are hearing is the bit of extra “presence” in the upper mids that can come from the midrange drivers in three-way systems. That might be what is making people think the tweeters are too hot.

One of the characteristics I prize very highly in speakers is natural timbre of instruments and voices (it may sound strange to say this holds true with amplified electronic instruments as well, but it does - Keith Richards’s guitar in the right channel of “Monkey Man” from the new SACD reissue of “Let It Bleed” sounds absolutely perfect). The Axioms sounded very natural on female vocals and instruments like violins, oboes and brass, though male vocals seem a little overly resonant, at least to my ears (listen to “Delia’s Gone” from Johnny Cash’s “American Recordings” CD and imagine the difference between hearing him in a small, hard-surfaced room versus hearing him, say, unamplified outdoors). While the additional bass that I heard added a welcome weight to the basses and the lower ranges of cellos in orchestral works, it seemed to make bassoons, the lower registers of the clarinet and the main body of sound from cellos seem a little “fat.” It’s an effect that isn’t unpleasant by any means, but when I’d switch back to the Missions these instruments sounded more like I hear them in the concert hall. Even so, it’s a pretty subtle difference, and I’m not sure I’d have a problem with it if I weren’t comparing the speakers side-by-side.

The biggest difference for me, and the one that I suspect I’d have a hard time overcoming, is that when comparing the two speakers, the Axioms tended toward a bit of congestion when there was a lot going on, or when volumes got too high. Massed strings in large-scale orchestral works sounded like they were a single source of sound, not like a group of instruments playing together. On rock recordings, passages that were pretty clear on the Missions got a little muddled and opaque on the Axioms. Mick Jagger’s vocal on “Live with Me” (again from the “Let It Bleed” SACD) just couldn’t make its way front and center with everything else that was going on around it. The net effect was a desire to turn down the volume, even when it wasn’t overly loud to begin with. On quieter, smaller-scale pieces, and at lower volumes, the Axioms sounded spectacularly clean and transparent, though. I might have thought this was a problem with my electronics if I hadn’t been able to hear differently with different speakers. Of course, I suppose it could still be the electronics, or at least the combination of the electronics with the M40Tis in particular. It could be something that going to one of the larger 3-ways would improve.

In case anyone thinks I’m damning the M40Tis with faint praise, let me reiterate that these differences in sound were all very subtle, much more so than I expected, and my ears aren’t nearly golden enough to suspect that they’d necessarily be problems for me, if I hadn’t had the other speakers there for immediate comparison. And please keep in mind the price difference between these two sets of speakers. While the Axioms have a list price of $490 US, I was able to get an Outlet pair with a little extra incentive thrown in for newsletter subscribers, so I paid $416. The Missions have a list price of $1400, though to be fair, in their native UK, it’s 700 pounds sterling, which I believe translates to something in the neighborhood of $1100 to $1200 US. I know there are probably importation costs to add to that number, but I can’t help but think that Denon (their North American distributor) may be inflating their list a little bit. Even at their sale price of $700 plus shipping (a cost that’s included in the Axiom’s $416), the Missions are a full 75% more expensive. So at this point, I’d have to say that the M40Tis are remarkable speakers. They make me wish I had a second system I could put them in.

If anyone is interested in reading further, here are some of the recordings used in my listening sessions (in no particular order):

LP
Prokofiev; excerpts from “Romeo and Juliet;” Leinsdorf/LA Philharmonic; Direct-to-Disc Sheffield Labs 8
Prokofiev; Wedding and Troika from “Lieutenant Kije Suite;” Tilson Thomas/LA Philharmonic; CBS Masterworks M 36683
Thompson; Suite for Oboe, Clarinet, Viola; Peter Christ, Oboe; Crystal Records S321

SACD
Bruce Cockburn - “Anything Anytime Anywhere,” Rounder SACD 11661-3180-6; tracks: “Wondering Where the Lions Are,” “Pacing the Cage”
Rolling Stones - “Let It Bleed,” Abkco SACD 90042; tracks: “Love in Vain,” “Live with Me,” “Monkey Man;”

CD
Cantus; “Let Your Voice Be Heard,” Cantus Recordings CTS-1201; tracks: “Loch Lomond,” “Danny Boy,” “Shenandoah”
Johnny Cash; “American Recordings,” American Recordings CK 69402; tracks: “Delia’s Gone,” “Drive On”
Bruce Cockburn; “The Charity of Night,” Rykodisc RCD 10366; tracks: “Birmingham Shadows,” “The Charity of Night”
Holly Cole Trio; “Treasure: 1989-1993;” Alert Records 6152 81035-2; all tracks
Fairfield Four; “Standing in the Safety Zone;” Warner Bros. Records 9 26945-2; track: “Roll Jordan Roll”
Fallen Angels; “Rain of Fire,” Wildchild Records 05852; track: “I Close My Eyes”
Diana Krall - “Love Scenes,” Impulse Records IMPD 233; tracks: “My Love Is,” “Garden in the Rain”
Diana Krall - “Stepping Out,” Justin Time Records Just 50-2; track: “This Can’t Be Love”
Lori Lieberman; “Home of Whispers,” Pope Music PMG2005-2; track: “Roots and Wings”
Toad the Wet Sprocket; “Acoustic Dance Party,” Columbia Records 44K 77727; track: “Something’s Always Wrong”
Barber; Adagio for Strings; Bernstein/LA Philharmonic; DGG 413 324-2
“Cantate Domino;” Nilsson/Oscars Motettkor; Proprius Records PRCD 7762; tracks: “Julsang,” “Stille Nacht”
Medieaval Babes; “Worldes Blysse;” Virgin/Nettwerk Recordings 8 6700 30142 Z 9; tracks: “Kinderly,” “Ecci Mundi Gaudium,” “Erthe Upon Erthe,” “So Spricht das Leben”
Prokofiev; Ten Pieces for Piano from “Romeo and Juliet;” Frederic Chiu; Harmonia Mundi HMU 907150
Rimsky-Korsakov; “Dance of the Tumblers;” Oue/Minnesota Orch; “Tutti! Orchestral Sampler;” Reference Recordings RR-906CD
Rutter; “Requiem;” Seelig/Turtle Creek Chorale; Reference Recordings RR-57CD
Tchaikovsky; 1st movement, Symphony No.6; Rostropovich/National Symphony; “Return to Russia;” Sony Classical SK 45836
Thompson; “Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening (Frostiana);” Turtle Creek Chorale; Reference Recordings RR-49CD


Re: unfair comparison? M40ti vs Mission 782
#6913 11/25/02 04:57 PM
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Great comparison article. I have demoed also the M40 and some of the Mission line. The M40 is great specially at its price but the congestion or tightness part I definitely noticed even with the the M22 which I ended up getting. M22 had better (even excellent in this price range)detail in mids and highs than M40 but M40 had better bass response.
After all of the time I spent with the M22Ti I still felt I was still missing something ... because the compact sound stage did not go away after break-in (which I thought it would). Not as noticeable in Jazz, Vocal and Bossa Nova/Latin stuff but I noticed it in Trance and Ambient Alternative music I have (The Crystal Method - "Vegas" tracks 2 & 9,10)
So now the M22 have moved to the back as my rear surrounds...which itself is a definite plus because now I get super super detail with a direct firing rear speakers as surrounds (Jurrassic Park 2 - Scene where the host of people as going through tall "rustling" grass while the raptors are "rustling" through the "swaying" tall grass sneaking up on both sides of host.
I opted with a Monitor Audio Silver S6 for my fronts. This speakers has given me the extended spacialness that the M22 missed and the bass response that I wanted (down to 35Hz instead of the M22Ti 50Hz). I actually wanted the Silver S8 but at $2200 CDN I could not afford it at this moment. The Silver S6 was at a $1450 CDN taxes in price point. Go audition them if you can because if you liked the Mission at that price point maybe the Monitor Audio Silver series may change your mind.
http://www.monitoraudiousa.com/products/silver/index.html
If you thought Axioms looked good in cherry finish. You should see those Monitor Audio in Rosemah (Rosewood-Mahogany)They are sweeeeet.
I was looking for a floorstander and I demoed:
Axiom M40, M50, M60 - okey..but the price wow at this level
Mission 700 series - okey
Paradigm Studio 60 - really liked
B&W CM2 - really like but bass was missing
Boston Acoustic VR950 - very surprised at this price
Keff Q7 - okey
PSB Status line - powerful but too much lower bass end
Monitor Audio Silver S6 and S8 - biggest range from low to high...and the clean and clarity really liked
Acoustic Energy Aegis 3 - disappointed

In the end I got the S6 due to its clean spaciality and wide range from highs to deeeeeep lows. I like British speakers due to its drive toward clean and clear (Which the M22 is very good with but bass is missing). North American speakers are more bass and ummpphhh...which gets muddy or busy in smaller/medium rooms which all of us mere mortal enthusiasts currently have. I was very very close with the Paradigm Studio 60. But the dealer with the Monitor Audio gave me a better price point. Remember I was primarily going for a floorstander for a small - medium room. If it was a bookshelk I think the Paradigm Studio 20 or 40 would have been my pick.
One thing about Monitor Audio speakers is that they tend to be overpriced in what they bring. But putting money aside it is always your "ears" that should tell you what to get. Not the reviews or price. If it is all ears and not the price or looks... I would go Proacs.
http://www.proac-loudspeakers.com



Re: unfair comparison? M40ti vs Mission 782
#6914 11/25/02 09:24 PM
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craigb Offline OP
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Thanks, Saturn...

I’d done a bit of auditioning of other speakers before getting my hands on the M40Ti and the Mission 782s as well. I listened to Energy C-5 and C-7, KEF Q5 and Q7, Polk LSi15, Dynaudio Audience 62, B&W 602 S3 and 602.5 S3, PSB Image 6t and the Meadowlark Swift. Out of all of those, only the PSBs and the Meadowlarks were very involving to me, and both are $1K speakers (per pair, US). The B&Ws were nice, but they didn’t really draw me into the music. I’ve heard that their CM-4 is a helluva speaker, but since it’s $1500US, I never even bothered to listen to it. I’d still like to hear more of the Swifts, but they’re so hard to find. And while I enjoyed the Image 6ts very much, their size is pretty much out of the question for me at this point in my life/living quarters. I’d like to hear the 5t, especially since it made it onto Stereophile’s recommended components list, but I can’t find one within less than a four-hour drive. I hadn’t considered Monitors, but since you raised the question, I checked their website, and like with so many others, there are no dealers in the Indianapolis area. Sooner or later you have to call it quits and live with the best you can find and afford (the s___-or-get-off-the-pot point), or decide to keep looking forever. And I’m running out of energy. And my SO is running out of patience Her living room has been disrupted for almost 30 days now, and while she hasn’t said so in so many words, I can tell she wants this to be over. The new speakers will be used only for critical (but fun) listening, and will remain closeted the rest of the time. Everyday listening will be through the same hidden-in-the-bookshelves satellite/sub setup we’ve been running for the past 8 years, ever since I had to give up my beloved 16-year old Magneplanars. That way we can have the best of both worlds.


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