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router settings NAT/ upnp
#201740 03/25/08 12:39 PM
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Question- I recently hooked up my denon 3808 to my router (linksys wireless 54g). I saved my configuration settings from my denon before I did the firmware upgrade. Due to the reccomendations from denon I have disabled Upnp for my router.

I am not sure if this is related but when upnp was enabled with my denon I would constantly have to go back to my computer and restart my media server every time I powered on my denon. Now I just power on the denon and can start streaming flac files from the get go.

However, on my xbox 360 when I check my network status under NAT it says 'moderate', when it use to say 'open'. some games seem to be harder to find an acceptable online match now... and when I tried to play halo it gave me a message that "matchmaking may be slow due to router settings" please configure your router so that the NAT is set to open.

So basically my xbox 360 wants upnp enabled and NAT set to open, while my denon wants to have upnp disabled....

What should i do!?




-David
Re: router settings NAT/ upnp
terzaghi #201742 03/25/08 01:05 PM
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Heh, well, do you love Denon or Microsoft more?

I would switch upnp back on and run some tests to see if you still run into the same media server reboot issues. If not maybe they can just play nice together with upnp; if you do, then I would consult Denon and deal with crappy gaming while you wait to see how important it is or if there is a workaround.

I am trying to think why Denon would want stricter settings; they can't really be that worried about security issues...although it would be pretty funny if I could hack into your receiver and start streaming any embarassing flacs I come across ;\)

Please keep me updated as to what happens because I am basically following behind in my setup process with a denon 3808 and a HTPC!

Greg


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Re: router settings NAT/ upnp
Megnaro #201743 03/25/08 01:10 PM
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Thanks for the input. Yah when I get a chance I will change my upnp back to enabled and see if that causes problems with my TVersity media server... I don't see why it would, but all I know is that for some reason I use to have to restart my media server every time I turned on my denon- otherwise it would show up as "TVersity media server- (access not allowed)" on my denon gui.

and it does not do that anymore- probably changed about the time I switched my router settings to upnp disabled as per denons comments about going through the firmware upgrade.

I could care less about that message in halo3- I really don't play that much- but It seems that I am having a hard time finding games in rainbow six vegas2 with an acceptable ping and it seems to give me an 'unable to connect to host' error more often


-David
Re: router settings NAT/ upnp
terzaghi #201744 03/25/08 01:14 PM
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You should check what ports the xbox is using and then open them in your router.
This is normally done under something called virtual server in your routers web interface.
If you check your manual this is mostly quite easy to do.



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Re: router settings NAT/ upnp
terzaghi #201745 03/25/08 01:14 PM
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Many routers have an option to open up NAT for one single device while forcing NAT for any other devices.

NAT is good to have running because it goes a long way to help protect the computers behind your router by giving them a 'fake' local IP address that is generally not discoverable to others out on the Internet. This is the part that often messes up gaming systems that like to have a real internet based IP.

I'm betting that your router will allow you to assign a real internet address to the 360 box and you can leave the rest behind NAT. You will need to be able to identify what the MAC address on your 360 is. I don't have a 360 but it probably tells you this info somewhere in its network setup screens.

UPnP is usually your safest bet but if you can turn NAT off altogether for the 360 then that takes it out of the picture altogether. It leaves your 360 more exposed to the internet but it doesn't really need to be protected as much as your PC.


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Re: router settings NAT/ upnp
Murph #201746 03/25/08 01:25 PM
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yah- I can view my MAC adress for my 360 from the dashboard. I will go into my router settings and see if I can't figure out how to upen the nat and enable upnp for the xbox.

So you would reccomend that I leave the nat closed and upnp diabled for all other ports/devices?


-David
Re: router settings NAT/ upnp
terzaghi #201763 03/25/08 02:45 PM
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UPnP is not truly required for anything, as far as I know. It's purpose is to simplify the process of adding new devices in your network. When it works, it works nicely and everything becomes Plug and Play. That being said, if you are comfortable enough to set things up in NAT yourself, then you don't really need the help of UPnP.

I'm not an expert on UPnP so hopefully a better educated person will confirm this.

Your best choices for the xbox, considering you are experiencing issues with the current config is probably.

Open NAT. That requires some knowledge to set up but I Googled and this article should get you started.
OPening up NAT on XBOX
This leaves you more exposed than Closed NAT(only for the device you set it up on) but should work better.

If you still experience problems. Go into your router and see if you can set it up to allow for a single MAC address to pass through without any Network Address Translation at all. In other words, Your XBOX will get true IP address from your Internet ISP instead of an internal one from your router and essentially, it kind of bypasses your router altogether. ((Note: By 'bypassing', you are also totally bypassing all the routers security for that single device, but I don't believe that is as serious a concern on a gaming system, as it is on say a PC))

To do this you need to understand how your ISP assigns addresses, do they dish em out via the most common method using DHCP, do they recommend using upnp, and will they allow you to use up more than one internet IP per customer (you are already using one on your router.) Also, do they demand you authenticate with PPPoE (yet another protocol).

As you can see, it can get very confusing. If you can manage to configure your router to do open NAT for the 360, you can ignore the above questions, which is why it may be the best solution.

As for your last question. There is normally nothing wrong with leaving upnp enabled for everything else unless it causes problems, like on the Denon. If you can't turn it off for just the Denon, then sure, just disable it altogether. It adds no benefit except for simplifying putting new gear on a network and you already seem to know enough to be able to do that without it's help.

Also, upnp used to open up some security flaws due to the way it simplifies things. A serious vulnerability when playing an infected Flash file is one I can think of, but that may have been patched by now. I usually recommend it for less technical people as it normally solves more connection problems than it creates.



Last edited by Murph; 03/25/08 02:50 PM. Reason: added an extra thought or two.

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Re: router settings NAT/ upnp
Murph #201800 03/25/08 05:36 PM
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I did a quick check on my router settings during lunch- I see the option to completely disable or enable upnp for all devices at once- it is currently set to disabled. Would that cause my NAT to say 'moderate' on my xbox 360 or is there some other culprit?


I saw something in the config. for 'port bypass'- I think I can set up my 360 to bypass all of the 'routing' this way, but I don't think I could enter the mac address anywhere, just port #'s

I think at this point I just need to find my manual and consult it for further advice...

Of course Everything is working pretty much ok right now so I hate to change too much stuff around. My approach to network configuration is a trial and error 'brute force' method... eventually I get it right



-David
Re: router settings NAT/ upnp
terzaghi #201816 03/25/08 05:55 PM
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Your correct. If it's working, why change it.

I'm unfamiliar with what "moderate" means on an xbox. I wish I had one!

Port bypassing is something completely different than bypassing the NAT feature. If things are working, you don't need to to make any changes there. If you want a further explanation of how ports work, I have a great diagram at home from a course I taught that I could post. Basically though, it is not relevant for you at this time.


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Re: router settings NAT/ upnp
Murph #201823 03/25/08 06:08 PM
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I have no idea what a moderate NAT means either- I just know it use to say 'open', and now it says 'moderate'- and I have received the messages about my NAT settings in Halo that I mentioned above.

I think I will look around xbox.com/support and my router manual and see how to get it to say 'open' again on my xbox. The only thing I can think of that I had changed is that I disabled the UPnP- I might just turn that back on and see if my xbox changes to 'open'- I will also see if my media server messes up with my denon.

Thanks for all of the input though!



-David
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