Who Says Vinyl Is Dead - Axiom Message Boards

Vinyl's not dead. It's just like your aging Aunt Flo who just got a tummy tuck and botox.

Vinyl materials certainly aren't dead and are very useful for many purposes; unfortunately one of them isn't the most accurate reproduction of music.

When was the last time you listened to a new piece of vinyl? What was the table, cart and phono pre used? Just curious.

Right again, JohnK........vinyl L.P.'S ARE SECOND BEST.

The original analog studio master tapes, (and/or mix down tapes) are the most accurate, to date.

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Right again, JohnK........vinyl L.P.'S ARE SECOND BEST.

The original analog studio master tapes, (and/or mix down tapes) are the most accurate, to date.

Let me get this straight. I'm talking about older lp's now. Going from analog tape to vinyl(analog) AAA is inferior to transferring from analog tape to digital AAD or ADD?

LT61, I'd pose to you the same question I asked JohnK. When was the last time you listened to an lp and what table, cart and phono pre were used?

How Stuff Works

Glad this guy jumped on the bandwagon so late... punk labels have continued selling vinyl throughout the CD age for nostalgia's sake. Fat Wreck Chords have been running "Fat Club" - like a cheese of the month club - only with 7"s - for quite a while.

And 80% of Jack White's iPod-hipster fans aren't about to sway me... they're definately going for a retro revolution. Probably 95% of their fans that don't buy their albums listen to them in 128kbps MP3 and think themselves clever. I'm not going to chuck my CDs out the window and be one of the cool kids there, either.

Bren R.

BrenR, if you are talking about me jumping on the bandwagon you are mistaken. Much of my vinyl I own today was stuff I had as a teenager. I still have my old Slayer, Mercyful Fate and Venom picture discs. I agree that it is quite trendy to listen to vinyl right now, but I think it is nice to see kids buying turntables and spinning vinyl. If I buy anything digital it is SACD or DVDA. Just my personal preference.

Not too long ago, I got out my Jimi Hendrix: "Electric Ladyland" L.P., and the current re-mastered cd version.

I play cds only these days, but every once in a while, just to see, I compare cd digital sound, to the analog vinyl.

Jimi's guitar on the L.P., (the 1983.....a merman, epic track) sounds like an electric violin....what tone!
However, on the cd, "the warm tone" just isn't there...(just one example).

This is a nice, simple test anyone (that has the discs) can try themselves.

Also, I forgot to say in my other post,.....vinyl did not "die".....but rather, was a victim of attempted "murder".
(by the recording industry....the guys putting out these cds, without ALL the 1's and 0's).

From that article, it seems to me that people are buying these vinyl's as collectors items only...or as Bren said, for nostalgia. It seems no matter what it is, some people tend to hoard just about everything by their favorite bands. I wonder if turntable sales have went up as well. If not, then I suspect the increase in vinyl sales by younger generations is simply due to hoarding! That is my uneducated guess anyway!

Larry, I always appreciate your wisdom and God knows I have better things to do than be argumentative about recorded music formats. I'm not going to write an essay on why I think vinyl has outlived its usefulness; such an exercise would be fruitless and probably inflammatory.

But your observation about "warmth" piqued my curiosity. When was the last time you heard a LIVE progressive/hard electric rock band and marveled at the "warmth" of the guitars?

I'm not saying it's not pleasant, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I am still unable to throw away dozens of my LP's (although I rarely listen to them). I'm just suggesting that what some people like and enjoy about the Vinyl experience is attributable to mutations along the path rather than faithful reproduction of the source.

I'm no engineer, and I'm sure it's come up before. IS there a plausible technical explanation as to how/why vinyl might be better able to capture the live performance than digital media?

Hello, Tom

I think for one to try to describe what something sounds like, is almost as hard as describing what a color looks like.....to a blind person.

Using logic, if cd digital sound was equal to the original analog source material, then there would be no need for all the re-masters, sacd, and other such attempts at improving the sound.....they would already have been the best possible, you cannot improve on the source.

Larry

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Using logic, if cd digital sound was equal to the original analog source material, then there would be no need for all the re-masters, sacd, and other such attempts at improving the sound.....they would already have been the best possible, you cannot improve on the source.

Actually, Larry, you're mixing apples and oranges.

If a CD is being remastered, it's because the mix and final stages of prep before going out to disc need improving. The disc being delivered is technically the same.

In other words, your statement is arguing against you in that your saying it's the people behind the recording that are the weak link, not the delivery medium itself (the CD).

Mark,

I can't agree with you this time.
The mastering process IS a big part of the problem......but
no matter how you slice your apples and oranges, there are not enough 1's and 0's to capture ALL of the source material.

This was by design..to allow cds, and their players to market.....cheaper, and faster.

Larry

Fascinating

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there are not enough 1's and 0's to capture ALL of the source material

Okay, now we're getting somewhere!

I'm not trying to belabor this or make it unpleasant, I really just do want to come to a fuller understanding of the various points of view.

Do you think it is ALL digital media that is deficient, or just the CD delivery mechanism? That is, if there is a high enough resolution or sampling rate (or whatever voodoo is applicable), is there a digital methodology that could capture and deliver a live performance as well as, I don't know, Tape at a high rate? Is Tape optimal for masters?

I don't necessarily disagree that digital recordings could be inferior to analog ones, but I don't fully understand the science of either one.

We could agree - I think - that second-generations of the original recording are likely to differ in an analog world. While it may be technically possible to replicate (to my ears, for sure) the master tape, the equipment and process required is not economically viable for mass market. With digital mastering and distribution, the consumer gets an exact replica.

So, if we take economics out of it for the moment, I guess the issues are twofold:
1. Is there an optimal ORIGINAL recording method (digital, tape, ??). In what cases would one be technically superior to the other and why? I mean, in what cases is converting the sound at the microphone into electrical impulses (for tape) or mechanical patterns (in vinyl) "better" than converting it to 1's and 0's?
2. Is there a technical reason why an analog master can be more faithfully transferred to an analog medium (vinyl, high speed tape, etc) than to a digital medium (like - but not necessarily limited to - CD)?

Again, to Larry especially, I'm not trying to quarrel or engender any negative vibe, I'm just really interested in discussing this issue with smart, civilized people.

Tom,

DDD recordings can sound fantastic....(i.e. CASH, the man comes around).

I don't know if more recent recording equipment has solved the issue, or not.
I hope so, I don't think analog tape recorders are used much in studios anymore.

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I'm just really interested in discussing this issue with smart, civilized people.

I guess I know when I'm not wanted!

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BrenR, if you are talking about me jumping on the bandwagon you are mistaken.

Nope, I meant the media zombie that wrote the article. Should have been clearer.

Bren R.

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there are not enough 1's and 0's to capture ALL of the source material.

But there are enough physical differences in the grooves of an LP to be more accurate? Technically, an analog recording does the same thing as a digital one, only without being tied to a standardized clock.

All this, including the stylus having to ride in the track, fighting centifugal forces outward, gravity & inertia as it bounces in the track (both vertically and horizontally - I assume if we're talking fidelity, we're talking at least stereo discs!), wow, flutter, pressing anomalies, dirt, dust, stylus wear, groove swish, and a handful of other issues.

I will say if you had a record of infinite size spinning at an infinite number of revolutions per minute in a "physics vacuum" that, yes, an LP could come a lot closer than a compact disc to the original source material. But to be honest, you're asking a whole lot of a 30cm platter of 180gram/m^2 vinyl and a little piece of wire with a diamond chunk on it.

Bren R.

Bren was absent on "Word Mincing" day in language arts.

You know, that all makes pretty good sense to me.

I'm suddenly afraid.

Centrifugal (centripetal) forces on the stylus?? Come now, let's be realistic. As far as the stylus is concerned, it's tracking a straight line that just happens to slowly move about 4 inches from right to left.

The rest of what you said is accurate, though.

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Not too long ago, I got out my Jimi Hendrix: "Electric Ladyland" L.P., and the current re-mastered cd version.

I play cds only these days, but every once in a while, just to see, I compare cd digital sound, to the analog vinyl.

Jimi's guitar on the L.P., (the 1983.....a merman, epic track) sounds like an electric violin....what tone!
However, on the cd, "the warm tone" just isn't there...(just one example).

This is a nice, simple test anyone (that has the discs) can try themselves.

Also, I forgot to say in my other post,.....vinyl did not "die".....but rather, was a victim of attempted "murder".
(by the recording industry....the guys putting out these cds, without ALL the 1's and 0's).

LT61, believe it or not people are repressing vinyl. I just purchased this set and it sounds fantastic.

Hendrix Voodoo Child Box Set

Again, I ask you this question. What table, what cart and what phono pre did you use? If you played it on an old Technics, Denon or low-end MMF or Project table with a sub-par cart I would expect the sound quality to be less than desirable.

Here is another interesting link written by Christine Tham. She compared CD, remastered CD, DVDA and lp versions and included data to show the differences between them.

Spectral and Dynamics Comparisons of LPs vs Digital formats

BTW, my point in posting the original link was not to start a digital vs. analog argument. As a lover of music, it was to show that music is alive and well in the Ipod age. True, I believe CD to be an inferior format, but I do own several SACD's and DVDA's and enjoy them sound wise.

My system, if anyone is interested:

Turntable: Rega P5
Cartridge: Dynavector 10X5
Phono Pre: Monolithic PS-1/HC-1
Integrated: NAD C352

That's an interesting article. I like how the author presented data and made speculations, but noted that there was nothing in his data to supports one format as being conclusively better than the other. Again, it seems to come down to the recording and mastering process.

This is basic audio technology, not anything coming out of personal preference and certainly not related to specific equipment owned. Some of the discussion appears to reflect a misunderstanding of digital sampling technology. A properly sampled analog waveform(i.e. if at least two samples at the frequency in question are taken)is reproduced exactly as a result of the digital sampling process; no approximation or missing information exists. The distortion and other inaccuracies inherent in even the best examples of old technology, such as LP records, are absent. The quality of the original material can be duplicated with complete fidelity; if that material is of terrible quality it will be reproduced just as is. Enthusiasm for obsolescent technologies on the basis of nostalgia or collecting interest is all very well, but claims as to having competitive quality have no factual basis.

A study of Dr. Lesurf's explanation of digital samping in the material originally prepared as an introduction for his electronics and physics students is worthwhile in gaining an understanding that what comes out of the process is exactly what went in.

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Centrifugal forces on the stylus?? Come now, let's be realistic.

You never cleaned vinyl with rubbing alcohol, did you? Put on a record, pour a quarter sized pool of it and it'll crawl to the outside of the disc... now think about that force being applied to a stylus riding in a groove with the tiny little surface area afforded by the tip of the stylus as friction against the force.

And as we learned about simple machines... speed is greatest at the outside edge of the wheel, torque is greatest near the axle.

Bren R.

Physics rocks! (in this case

)

Seriously thou, if "you" believe vinyl sounds better to "you" more power to ya. If "you" don't think there is a difference between vinyl and digital recordings, well thats fine too. It's almost the same arguement of solid state vs tubes and its a pretty pointless arguement because each side will have an army of people making their points but will be unable to sway the other side. It's like liberals vs conservatives. Good luck with that.

I'm all for people enjoying their audio system of choice. That's what this stuff is all about.

How about Fur? Fur's Dead, right?

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That's an interesting article. I like how the author presented data and made speculations, but noted that there was nothing in his data to supports one format as being conclusively better than the other. Again, it seems to come down to the recording and mastering process.

It comes down to personal preference, like so much in the audio world. I happen to prefer vinyl to cd. As I've said before, I thought the original story was cool because it discussed kids getting back into an old music format. Didn't realize so many people would have problems with a format they haven't listened to in 20 years. I hear so much about listening with your ears on this site, but when it goes against the norm all the same old people jump out and dismiss it.

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I'm all for people enjoying their audio system of choice. That's what this stuff is all about.

How about Fur? Fur's Dead, right?

You've got it Tom. Enjoy the music in whatever format you choose.

JohnK, when was the last time you listened to an lp? I was never trying to set out to "prove" that analog was better than digital. Everyone now knows my preference. The problem I have is that many have alluded to how bad vinyl sounds without having heard a current turntable. I pose this question for the pro-digital people. Do you believe SACD and DVDA are a better sounding format than Redbook CD. If so, why listen to an old outdated format. Having heard SACD, DVDA, Redbook CD and Vinyl within the last week, I still prefer vinyl. As I've stated before, I do enjoy SACD and DVDA in 5.1.

Finally, I'd like to add a little story about our last X-mas party. About an hour into the party, I began talking with a friends wife. I excused myself for a second to turn an lp over. She looked at me with a look of disbelief and told me she had no idea it was an lp. She said it sounded just like a cd. So on that note, I say trust your ears. For those of you have not heard a turntable in 15-20 years, you'll be surprised what you hear.

Enought bickering already. Everyone go out and listen to something that you enjoy.

Bren, Bren, Bren... Your understanding of physics in this case is lacking. Sure, a drop of liquid placed on a spinning disc will move away from the axis of rotation due to centripetal force. But that is because the drop of liquid is rotating along with the disc. The stylus does not experience the same force as the drop of liquid because it is attached to the tone arm, which rotates (across a very limited operational arc at very miniscule speeds) on a completely separate axis. The thing that keeps a stylus tracking properly is gravity, which holds the needle in the groove -- a groove that, I repeat, from the POV of the needle is nothing but a line that happens to slowly shift from right to left over time.

Let me put it another way. If you spin a bike tire and place your finger lightly on the tire's sidewall as it spins, do you feel a force perpendicular to the axis of rotation? No, but this is exactly what you're suggesting happens to the stylus.

I was a bio major... I majored in the study of female anatomy. In this case of physics and world forces, I believe I'm mistaken.

Bren R.

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I pose this question for the pro-digital people. Do you believe SACD and DVDA are a better sounding format than Redbook CD. If so, why listen to an old outdated format.

Because to hear the "limitation" of CD audio - the Nyquist limit of 22.05KHz, you'd have to have 4 paws and a tail?

Multiple channels are the main benefit of the new formats.

Bren R.

Interesting thread.

Although I do not have a turntable I still have some of my old LPs around here somewhere and could see me investing in one for old times sake. At 40 bucks a pop I couldn't see me exchanging all of my CDs for vinyl but just like the guy who keeps his '66 GTO pristine or the fella who flies his '43 Stearman on the weekends, it would be something from an era gone by that I could fire up occasionally and say to myself 'isn't that cool!'

Whether or not one sounds better than the other, IMO it's all subjective and a matter of personal preference. A CD is what it is and a vinyl LP record is what it is, a means to transport music into our diverse ears...and that's a good thing!

Everyday, more and more I'm getting to be like 2x6spds ... and I quote,

' Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.'

If you mean you have the L.P..........then you are half way there.
Just buy the cd now,....do the test, and report back here.
A nice, easy AND inexpensive test.

(or, we can all continue to pontificate)

Once you look past those who are more interested in winning a debate, rather than seeking the truth......the real answer is usually there to see.

I think most people would be surprised at how many labels continue to produce vinyl LP's alongside their CD releases. Not to mention the number of artists preferring to stay true to the analog recording and mixing equipment. I know I was very surprised a few months ago, when I decided to do a bit of searching.

I love the vinyl format and if I see "AAD" on a CD I will usually seek out the LP and buy it instead. This is especially true for any albums released originally on vinyl while it was the main medium, like Hendrix, Zeppelin and the like.

Anyone with the means to take a listen to a decent vinyl rig should do so, imo.

OOP'S............after re-reading this thread, I don't think you are one of the one's who need to do the experiment.
My bad.

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If you mean you have the L.P..........then you are half way there.
Just buy the cd now,....do the test, and report back here.
A nice, easy AND inexpensive test.

(or, we can all continue to pontificate)

I have done so with numerous lp's vs. cd comparisons. I never said I didn't own cd's and the comparisons were done using my Pioneer Elite 59DVAVi player and my old Rega P3 or my newer Rega P5.

Again, I ask the question. When was the last time you've listened to both and on what table, cart and phono pre?

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Interesting thread.

Whether or not one sounds better than the other, IMO it's all subjective and a matter of personal preference. A CD is what it is and a vinyl LP record is what it is, a means to transport music into our diverse ears...and that's a good thing!

Everyday, more and more I'm getting to be like 2x6spds ... and I quote,

' Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.'

Agreed.

Merkaba, what kind of table do you own?

See my post above yours.

I still have my 80's realistic turntable (with the light speed calibration feature), and use a vintage shure...v15 cartridge.

Also, sign me up for the "trust your ears club". (But not the "laugh at" club).

Post deleted. Wid has shown me the light. I apologize for dragging this out so long.

I think you are reading LTs post wrong, he is agreeing with you.

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Merkaba, what kind of table do you own?

Systemdek IIX table
Nagaoka MP-11 Boron cart
TCC TC-750 phono pre

Currently looking into replacing the pre with something better. Possibly tubed, who knows.

Well, you vinyl guys can turn green with envy now... I'm just adjusting the azimuth on my first 8-track player... all that new fangled random-access flat disc stuff can pee up a tree, I've got 4 stereo tracks of analog musical goodness... and there are others like me, too!

Quake and cower at my... *whiirrr... *CLICK* whiirrrr...* musical might... (wonder how many will get THAT reference?)

Bren R.

Bren, you're to be congratulated for developing this interest, but I beg of you to please keep your enthusiasm for 8-track under control! Don't become the subject for a collection of sad tales such as these poor souls afflicted with vinylitis , some of whom may have already crossed the threshold into becoming vinyl junkies .

They should make digital vinyl disks.

Well, OK.............but cassettes sound MUCH better.

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They should make digital vinyl disks.

Like this?

JohnK,

That vinyl link is kinda funny.
You are not only very informative, but are a true link-meister.

I thought of something you would be even BETTER at.
An audio myth-buster. You could travel around to audio trade shows......and demonstrate a personally, hand picked, audio system.

I have taken the liberty of extrapolating pertinent views, and opinions of yours, on subjects like this one, and others, to give an example of what your system for the road show might consist of.

This might be a bit out of context, but....judging from many of your past posts, it would be something like this:

RECIEVER: Solid state, model and price unimportant..does not effect sound quality.

CD player: Any $29.00 model will do...does not effect sound quality.

CD: Redbook cds are the best, all other formats sound worse.

SPEAKER WIRE: Brown lamp cord is good enough....anything else is worthless.

Just think how your system would blow away all those vendors with their fancy, expensive electronics, and add on, snake oil, do-dads

Larry

(At least we agree on Axiom speakers, right?)

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An audio myth-buster.

That's it... I'm calling the Discovery Channel... JohnK, grow a big walrus moustache and completely lose your ability to form a comprehensive sentence without the word "um" due to the immense amount of knowledge running around in your head. I'll dye my hair red and develop an obnoxious personality. We'll make audio learning fun in a Mr. Wizard on crack kind of way.

Bren R.

Bren, you have an uncanny way of painting pictures with words.

Uh... I don't think you have to develop that personality.

Perhaps alter slightly...

How did you take a picture of crack?

My favorite on the show is Buster.

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My favorite on the show is Buster.

This Buster?

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Uh... I don't think you have to develop that personality.

Nah, I'm just confident in my knowledge and research. To be truly obnoxious, one needs an inflammatory signature line.

Bren R.