Jack? - Axiom Message Boards

(My mom taught me to always check on elderly neighbors)

Anyone check that other forum?

I think he posted something last week on the other forum. Don't quote me on that, though.

My mom also taight me to stay in my own neighborhood....

Well, not really. But I don't do that other forum ...

Fourth Axis of Evil and all......

I must have missed out. My mommy ain't taight me nuthin'!

It has been a little over a week since his last post. I hope he is getting some rest and relaxation...

He went to an AV123 GTG at Craigsub's this past weekend. He may not have recovered yet!

I'm fine. Thank you for asking. I'm here just as often as usual. I'm just not posting as much as I once did (you can all stop cheering now). I wasn't here over the weekend. because I was at Craigsub's house in Erie,PA for a fantastic get-together (GTG).

I'm hesitant to mention this here because I don't want it to seem that I'm hyping the competition. But, I've decided to mention it anyway, because these things are just too much fun, and this GTG, though Mark Schifter was in attendance, actually, was not a normal av123 GTG. Most of the attendees were av123 forum members, but several were Ascend owners, and many, just like many here, own other brands in addition to their av123 offerings.

Craig is big on blind testing. So he organized a blind listening comparison of a number of different speaker brands. Though there were an unbelievable number of different speaker brands there, Craig narrowed it down to 12.

Round 1:

NHT Classic 2's:
Swan D2.1 SE's: (wired out of phase to keep people honest)

Round 2:

Dana 630's:
B&W 805S:

Round 3:

Ascend 340's:
Acculine A1's:

Round 4:

AV123 XL-S:
Ascend Sierras:

Round 5:

SVS SCS-01's:
PSB Image B-25's:

Round 6:

Swan D2.1 SE"s
Ascend Sierras

There's nothing "blind"about that, you say? Oh yes there is. Accoustical grill cloth from Parts Express made it so.

Though no Axiom speakers were present, the absolutely fabulous switch, which provides level-matched, instantaneous switching between up to 4 sets of speakers, was constructed for Craig by Axiom, and it did a wonderful job.

Wow, that sounds fantastic. So where can all of us under-priviledged folk find out the results?

It was a fabulous day, with many really nice people.

And tons and tons of great food.

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Wow, that sounds fantastic. So where can all of us under-priviledged folk find out the results?

Here is a link to the ongoing thread over at av123.

Western PA / NY GTG Part 2 ...

I've linked to page 9 where people have started to post about the GTG after it was over. The first post says there were a couple of Axiom owners there. He meant Ascend owners, not Axiom (well, at least he remembered that it started with a "A").

If you want skip all the schmoozing and cut right to the chase, the results are on page 10, post #143. Keep in mind that the results are a compilation of peoples opinion, nothing more nothing less. Had you been there, you very well may have rated everything differently. Also, the scores are not absolute. Each test stands on its own, meaning one should not look at a score from round 1 and compare it to a score from round 6.

Should anyone have the opportunity to attend one of these GTGs, yes even a regular av123 GTG, you should do yourself a favor and do it. Yes, there are av123 products present and being demonstrated, and yes, there are av123 products given away by drawing. But, nobody is hyping anyone to buy anything.

Truthfully, the best thing about these GTGs is the people, the camaraderie with others who share a passion for our hobby, and the great food. Most of these GTGs are instigated and organized by regular forum members, not av123.

I would love to see Axiom do the same kind of thing, cuz they are great fun, and go a long way toward creating a strong, supportive community.

Yeah, I think we've been falling down on the job... How about that west coast get together next summer?

Glad to hear you had fun, Jack!

Thanks Ken. Yeah, if that West coast GTG comes off, circumstances permitting, I'll be there.

Hey, that's my hot tub!

Maybe. Possibly. It looks like a Hot Springs model. I have the Envoy. It's nice to be getting into cooler weather and to be using it again.

See, I don't think there's a Beer Thread with 75,000 views at av123. So, we certainly HAVE Axiom GTG's, but they, well, are a little less focused.

Jack, it always makes me feel happy to hear your stories, and I am delighted that you had a good time. Thank you.

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It was a fabulous day, with many really nice people

...plus Ray.

I kid because I care. Wish I'd been there.

I wish you could've been there as well, Tom. Getting to see Ray again was a joy. He told the story about Peter photoshopping our faces onto the bodies of Matthau and Lemmon from Grumpy Old Men. Got a lot of laughs.

There was a recent GTG, similar to this, held in the Seattle area. I believe Kris Deering of Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity was in attendance. I debated with myself, back and forth, whether to let you know about it. I was so paranoid about coming across as hyping that I simply couldn't make a decision, which of course resulted in the involuntary decision to not let you know. If you think you would ever be interested in attending such a gathering in your area please let me know. I can tell you they are a great deal of fun, and you'd meet a LOT of very nice people.

Boy, I'M elderly and nobody checked on me! On the other hand, I get that ALOT!

Attended with Jack (I'm the good lookin' guy in the burgundy shirt with glasses). We had the chance to have dinner Friday night and breakfast Saturday morning together and catch up a bit. I counted that as special time. Jack is even cooler (and older) in person and I regard him as a close friend.

Second time for both of us to Craig's (subwoofer shoot-out a couple of years ago). Craig is the best guy and he has a sharp wit/great sense of humor. Opened his home up to 30+ and everybody had the run of the place. There was that unfortunate incident with Jack and the pocketfuls of silverware, but we got it under control.

This was a non-denominational gathering, but mostly peopled by av123ers. Great fun was had by all, but it played hell with my golf schedule.

OK - this is scary; posting at the same time.

I also related that unfortunate photoshop incident involving "The Tick".

That has to be one of the best forum reads in a LONG time.
Nicely done lads.
Looks like the GTG was fantastic.

So what was it i posted the other day about Axiom building A/B switcher units for the masses of home enthusiasts? Seems their prototype is already out there...

And just how many cows were killed to cook 36 tenderloins?

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So what was it i posted the other day about Axiom building A/B switcher units for the masses of home enthusiasts? Seems their prototype is already out there...

Very enticing product. Although I don't do much A/B'ing (?) anymore, I'd still like to such a switcher.

I agree, Chess, nice thread. I had an opportunity to attend an AV123 GTG about a year ago, but circumstances permitted otherwise. Definitely looking forward to an Axiom GTG!!

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There was that unfortunate incident with Jack and the pocketfuls of silverware, but we got it under control.

I don't quite understand why nobody believed that I was simply demonstrating the Harpo Marx silverware routine. That's all I was doing..........honest..........really..........anybody?

After Ray and I had dinner Friday night, we retired to a very informal, intimate gathering at Craig's (Ray and I; Craig and his lovely wife Susan; Mark Schifter; John Williams (Quadriverfalls), his wife Denise, and his two daughters). It was a lovely, soft, warm evening and we sat outside on the patio just enjoying each other's company.

Craig set up a pair of old Klipsch Cornwalls in the opening of one of his garages (in the photo below, you can see one of the Cornwalls in the garage opening obscuring the right rear of the red Viper).

We were seated on the patio, about 150 feet from the speakers. We played some discs that Mark had brought along, and I could not believe how good everything sounded. Those old Klipsch just sang. I have not enjoyed such a pleasant evening in a very long time.

Now what sub could you possibly use with the Cornwalls that would be effective at about 150 feet. Why this 435 pound behemoth, of course.

Is that thing ridiculous or what!

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That has to be one of the best forum reads in a LONG time.
Nicely done lads.
Looks like the GTG was fantastic.

So what was it i posted the other day about Axiom building A/B switcher units for the masses of home enthusiasts? Seems their prototype is already out there...

And just how many cows were killed to cook 36 tenderloins?

Chess, It was truly a wonderful time. I will reiterate that the single best thing was the people. Just really fine folks all around.

That switch was really cool, and worked perfectly. There was absolutely no delay. Just speaker A, bingo, speaker B. Terrific!

LOL! I have no idea how many bovines bit the dust, but their sacrifice was NOT in vain. Absolutely delicious.

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(I'm the good lookin' guy in the burgundy shirt with glasses)

Oh geez... Ray, I'm so sorry... I just assumed that someone had brought along part of their mummy collection...

See, this is why we lose owners... it's not because someone else has a better product for the dollar... it's because their owners don't spit the same vitriolic comments that ours do... like mine above.

... which, oddly enough, is why I love you guys.

Bren R.

Jack, sounds like a fantastic time. The link you provided doesn't seem to work, though - and none of the pictures posted here are working either. Just me?

I'm sorry you're having difficulty, Shawn. Everything seems to be working for me.

If you're that interested, try going to av123forum.com, click on "Loudspeakers And Subwoofers," and the first sticky thread should be "Western PA / NY GTG Part 2 ...". To skip all the preliminary stuff start at page 9.

Nobody knew which sub Craig used for the listening comparison, and everybody raved about it (I did not participate in the comparison). It turned out to be a $289 Acculine ASub. Go figure.

I will qualify that "rave" by saying that Craig's basement room is a terrific sounding room. It has a low (7'?), acoustical tile, dropped ceiling and there is, something like, 4" of insulation in the walls, so it is a relatively dead room without being too dead. Just about everything sounds good in that room.

Sounded like a fun time!

I'm disappointed Jack didn't ask me as his date though!

Jack, if there's ever an Midwestern Axiom GTG, you'd better be there!

You'd have been most welcome, Mary. (no wink) Rest assured, circumstances permitting, I will be attending any Axiom GTG I can.

Jack, I'm firmly in the "many paths to God (or audio bliss)" camp, so yes, I'm always interested in sharing time with good people.

Ray (I can't believe I'm saying this), retirement seems to agree with you. You look great. Especially considering your vintage

Shawn, it's just you.

Bren, don't stop

Well thanks for the nice compliment Tom! I highly recommend retirement to everyone.

Don't wait as long as I did (60) though. There are downsides. For example, I bent down to tie my shoes today and then forgot why I was down there.

While the GTG was great fun, I was a tad disappointed that there weren't any M3s or M22s there. I always liked showing off my Axioms and watching the reaction when I told them the price. I still think the M60 is a terrific speaker.

Soooo - when does the first Axiom GTG get scheduled somewhere between Jack and me and who is going to host it?

Mary - if you DO go to one of these things with Jack, take a large, really absorbent drool towel. You'll thank me later.

Jack, you're right that the best part about these GTG is the people. Nothing better than fellowship while sharing and learning about one's passion or hobby.

I did find a couple of things striking while reading the posts at 123 about the GTG. The first is 123's product philosophy. It appears that 123 is building speakers using multiple design approaches (traditional, non-traditional and emerging) in order to appeal to various buyers. I'm not talking about form but rather function. While on the surface this appears to be very accommodating, I also find it unusual and confusing. Exactly what does 123 believe in and stand for? Are some designs more appropriate for some applications compared to others? If so, I can't find any evidence of that on their site. Manufacturers usually research alternatives, select one that is well-justified and develop the best products possible so as not to dilute resources. 123 appears to be taking a shotgun rather than a rifle approach.

The second thing I found striking is the lack of a significant gap in the ratings amongst reviewed pairs of speakers at the GTG. Why is that? Maybe the results aren't statistically significant because voter population needed to be larger. Or maybe the speakers are closely matched. Or maybe there is no significant difference under those specific test conditions. I for one would be more interested in seeing what the test conditions were and also Floyd Toole's rating sheet.

Thanks for sharing this with us, Jack.

Mojo, I believe it was stated in an earlier post of mine that these are merely listening impression and subjective opinions. No one has ever claimed the results are "statistically significant." Feel free to totally disregard the results if you wish.

I did not participate in the comparison, but I suspect the lack of a significant gap in the ratings is because, under blind conditions, it is very difficult to quantify subjective opinion. Periodically, the participants switched seats so as to experience each pair of speakers from several different positions within the room. Many remarked at how they responded differently to each speaker, depending on their position in the room, making their evaluations just that much more difficult.

Unless you've done an evaluation under blind conditions you have no idea how difficult and exhausting it can be.

Regarding av123:

Rocket/Rocket II --- Home Theater - great for nulti-channel music applications too.

REF --- 2 channel "cross over" product for those that love music but want HT - very high end finish. Reputedly a bit more "forward" than Rockets.

Strata --- Intimate 2-channel (but some are, surprisingly, using them for HT)- Planer Magnetic tweeter and midrange

LS --- 2 channel all the way - Line Source product... high end... limited market.

x-series --- extreme value product - great for the money at all price points - nice finish

Hope that helps.

What's that Vick's Vapo-Rub doing on top of that subwoofer? Did it sounds congested?

LOL!

I thought the same thing when I saw that photo. Wish I could answer your question.

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Mojo, I believe it was stated in an earlier post of mine that these are merely listening impression and subjective opinions. No one has ever claimed the results are "statistically significant." Feel free to totally disregard the results if you wish.

Understood. Thanks.

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No one has ever claimed the results are "statistically significant." Feel free to totally disregard the results if you wish.

I did not participate in the comparison, but I suspect the lack of a significant gap in the ratings is because, under blind conditions, it is very difficult to quantify subjective opinion. Periodically, the participants switched seats so as to experience each pair of speakers from several different positions within the room. Many remarked at how they responded differently to each speaker, depending on their position in the room, making their evaluations just that much more difficult.

Unless you've done an evaluation under blind conditions you have no idea how difficult and exhausting it can be.

Jack, for once there is not a single thing here that i disagree with.
Ah, no, waitaminute, that's not true.
I was expecting to see some regression lines and p values on those results.

Just out of curiousity, was there any reason why Axioms were not auditioned in the tests? Given the price range of that lineup, i thought for sure they would be.

Craig made the choice as to which speakers would be included in the comparison. I was not privy to his reasoning, so I can't really answer your question. However, that Axiom switch had everyone drooling.

Having the ability to instantaneously switch between level-matched speakers was a joy.

I audited (listened but didn't score) round 2. It drove me nuts. Craig played a female vocal, a male vocal, and an instrumental for on each pair of speakers. The differences between the two speakers were apparent. With one selection I found myself preferring speaker A without being able to quite say why, and with another I preferred speaker B, again, without being able to quite say why.

Making it even more difficult was the fact that each speaker brought to the table something the other didn't. One speaker had a narrower soundstage (approximately between the speakers), but the middle of the soundstage (i.e., the vocal) was forward (closer to me) which is a speaker trait I, very much, appreciate. That's why I like Axioms.

The other speaker had the vocal more, but not unacceptably, recessed, but the soundstage extended well beyond the spread of the two speakers and I, very much, like that trait. So, I liked aspects of each, both could be considered "good," and owners of each would have reason to quite satisfied with their speakers. Trying to decide which I preferred was agony. AAARRRGGGHHH!

Had I participated in all 6 rounds I might have come across one speaker that, in my opinion, did it all, but somehow I doubt that would have occured.

You could always jam a pencil into your ear canal and perforate your ear drum. That would handily remove one of the variables from consideration -- namely soundstage -- and you give qualities such as tonality more attention.

NAW! That wouldn't have helped at all. While my pain and suffering might have been slightly diminished because I wouldn't have had to worry about soundstage, that diminution would have been more than compensated for by the added pain of the perforated eardrum.

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Trying to decide which I preferred was agony. AAARRRGGGHHH!
Had I participated in all 6 rounds I might have come across one speaker that, in my opinion, did it all, but somehow I doubt that would have occured.

Yes i know that feeling.
Flipping between a Monitor Audio, Tannoy and Axiom speaker, i liked aspects of all three, but none of the three seemed to fill the perfect shoes.
I was very tired from listening after playing with that for 3 hours.

So the testing trods on...
I should have a chance to hear some rebuilt Fostex LS3s

hopefully early next week following shortly by some Mirage OM5s.

Why don't you turn all three on at once. It's called the principle of superposition.