Wow, they have quite the thing going there. Good amount of staff, lots of demos, and the 10 minute "home theater room" demo was quite impressive....

Now, I know better, but holy crap, no wonder the Bose "stuff" (was going to say junk, but whatever) is so expensive. They had a fully sound treated room with theater seats and such set up. Part way through the demo (that would have worked great for ANY decent speaker brand) they "uncover" the speakers (they had fake speaker "shells" on stands to cover up the little cubes) and some of the people in the room were all amazed. Then they monkeyed around with putting the center channel in a box and how the system could calibrate itself to fix the sound (the demo just faked bad sound as it was an "instant" calibration). Again, people were amazed by this magic... Thinking that the system will sound outstanding in any room of their home, and it will some how cancel out echos and other room acoustic issues.

Again, like I said, I was impressed. Not with the products, but just the length that they go to make you think that you are getting the best speaker package out there. The demo used works like "...only with a Bose system..." and so forth.

Lies and garbage... Made me feel like it was election time again, but again, I was impressed with the (sneaky and dirty, I know) presentation.

Even the 2 guys I was with were about ready to drop $4,000 on a bose cube setup. It was like I was talking to two brick walls...

At least they didn't buy anything today. Maybe in the future I'll be able to help them to "see the light"... Then again, they live here in New York, and I won't be back for probably 6 months...

They'll have a Bose setup by then. You must stop them now!

Nick, you have journeyed to the Dark Side and returned, are YOU ok?

$4000?!? They could get a serious package here for that kind of cash? Somebody DO something.

I told my sister in law that those little Bose cubes were made and marketed for the not so well informed woman who wears the damn pants in the family type ... of course this was after she was very critical of our system and boasted to me how much better their Acoustimess system was.

Whoopee, somebody pop the top on the friggin' champagne bottle.

That is a perfect analogy.

The Dark Side is temping and sure seems great at first, and it is easy to get sucked in to the sneaky gibberish, but to be able to experience it and come back has made me even better understand why people are tempted by Bose for their homes, and I am now more informed to help guide people towards the right path...

Your experience echoes mine. I've been into a couple of Bose stores. For no other reason than when I've been stuck at a Mall with family as wives shopped. Exactly the kind of customer that Bose tries to lure.

Bose's genius has always been in their marketing. We all love to bash Bose (for good reason), but they are a shrewdly run business. Commercials, sponsorships, & partnerships with car manufacturers; it's all about exposure. They've dumped tons of money into those Bose stores too, and they put them in high-traffic areas like shopping & outlet malls. And in my experience, often in "man-store-deficient" malls. Typical guys flock to them because there's nothing else to do. And if they haven't taken the time or energy to research what other brands sound like, they end up buying $4,000 cube systems that are sonically annihilated by $1,000 systems from a multitude of other manufacturers.

I've known a lot of people who are very proud of their Bose systems. You know, showing it off at a dinner/superbowl party or talking about it at work, etc. I'm polite, and so I try not to be a jerk about it, but I always ask about what other brands they listened to before deciding on Bose. In every case I can remember, the answer basically is, "None. I didn't need to. I just heard that Bose was the best." Ignorance is bliss.

People are, in general, naive. We believe what we're told. We like shiny things and flashing lights. We like to be sold on a product. Nicely-dressed & groomed salespeople in a clean, modern, "chic" store alter people's perceptions of the product. There's a reason Dolce & Gabbana can sell $1,000 shoes, and Louis Vuitton can sell $10,000 luggage. Some of that value is quality (sometimes more, sometimes less), but some of that price is simply marketing & image hype. Bose stores work on the same principle, with even less quality & even more hype.

Now personally, I don't care if people buy products based solely on marketing hype and image. It's their life & their money. Bose is there for that. But I think a lot of people buy Bose because it's convenient. Their massive marketing has put their name in the minds of millions of people. Bose springs to mind when un-sonically-experienced people want "good" audio gear, because that's how it's marketed. But every time I see a Bose store, I just wish there was an Axiom, Energy, Paradigm, B&W, Dynaudio, etc store next to it so that people would have an equal opportunity to hear what *real* speakers sound like in comparison.

Oh, and the best way to screw around with a Bose salesman? Start asking about power outputs and frequency response. That's always fun.

While I read that, visions of an Apple Store ran through my head.

Maybe not totally fair to Apple, since their products are better-regarded than BOSE, but there is that element there, and they work it hard. Those "I'm a Mac" ads - which I love - pound away at that part of our brains.

I just went to an Apple store for the first time 3 weeks ago. Exactly the same image went through my mind when I read that paragraph. It was hard not to be impressed. We were there because my daughter's Touch on/off was not functioning. They replaced the Touch on the spot. She came home from college a week later and called us that week to say that the new Touch was not functioning correctly either. She is back in town this week and Apple replaced it yet again - no questions asked. I have never been an Apple fan boy but must admit I have been impressed. My wife is wanting a laptop and I am now seriously considering a Macbook Pro.......Rob

There are a few companies out there that do understand customer service.

I hear you on wishing there was an Axiom, Energy, Paradigm, B&W, Dynaudio, etc store beside every Bose store. The problem is, if these companies did that, they wouldn't have any money left for proper R&D to create the great products that they do. And if there were no great products for us to evaluate and buy, then we might as well buy Bose.

Education is the key!!!! Everyone sing with me, no "highs no lows it must be", well you get the picture!!!

paul

Exactly. 'Good marketing' is about maximizing profit by whatever means and is employed by both purveyors of crap and quality with similar results.

Apple produces good products, but locks you into their proprietary world: probably the biggest reason why I don't own anything Apple.

I generally didn't like the sound of Bose systems even before knowing about their shortcomings. Despite the allure of their retail stores and great marketing, I decided to let my ears be the final judge, and thankfully, Bose was never on the list.

However, I did have a pair (and still do) of Bose Roomate II speakers that I picked up in 1990. They lacked crisp highs, and the lows were abysmal, but they sounded better than any 'boom box' I've heard up to that point.

Each bass reflex enclosure comes with one full range driver. The amp sits in one of the enclosures and all you need is a source. For me it was my Walkman, or a portable CD player. I kept the speakers on each end of my desk in college and was fine with the sound they produced.

After college, I lent them to a friend who used them for 4 years or so and he enjoyed them as well. So much so that he ended up buying a home cube system.

Awhile back, I plugged the Roomates in just for old times sake, and the cheap 2.1 Logitech setup with my PC easily bested the Bose speakers. Still, I cant get rid of them for nostalgic reasons, and even tried using them as the 'height' channel in my current setup (didn't work out). I believe you can see the left speaker sitting on my entertainment center in the gallery.

While I don't care for the Bose sound, some of thier smaller products aren't half bad...just pricey.

There's a second reason I don't own anything Apple, price. When I was building my current computer I was using a work-provided MacBook, and liking OS X. I figured I'd see what a Mac Pro would cost configured similarly to the PC I was considering: dual quad core processors, 16 GB of RAM, two 15k RPM drives large enough to run the OS from RAID1, also a slower 10k RPM storage array of mirrored 1 TB disks--all SAS controlled. A 512 MB video card, and a 26" professional quality LCD.

Long story short, my PC build cost $6000. If I were to get the Apple it would have been $11,000. I prefer Windows 7 to OS X too (prefer Ubuntu Linux to both).

When I was in college one of my roommates had Bose 901's. Everyone thought they were the "bomb" or whatever the expression is these days. (I heard my daughter using the term "Baller" to describe excellent football tickets). I have never been in a Bose store - do they still make that type product? Would 901's stand up to the Axiomite crowd?

The Bose 901s are some of the least flat speakers ever made. To get around this Bose includes an EQ to flatten their response. They're so bad that there's not enough headroom in the auto-EQing systems of today's receiver to correct them. So one must use the tape-loop to insert Bose's EQ into the signal path. Too bad no one builds receivers with tape-loops anymore. Additionally the amount of gain applied to some of the audio bands reduces the headroom of the amp in the receiver and can cause it to distort/clip.

The 901s were Bose's first foray into gimmickry.

We can't have a thread bashing Bose and Apple without mentioning the Monster .

Crap, I did speak down upon Apple and Bose in the same thread. I must just be full of bile today.

Monster is just so blatant in their deception, they're almost not worth attacking. It's the companies like Transparent Audio, Nordost, Shunyata Research, etc. Which take Monster's over-priced hype to a whole new level.

You are not full of bile at all :). With Monster, the frivolous trademark lawsuits really bother me the most. Like Apple and Bose, Monster sells overpriced products and each company in their own way takes part in misleading marketing, something I sure do not want to support. I also hate the proprietary thing with Bose and Apple.

How do I hook my Bose bass module up to my receiver?

I don't know that it's fair to lump Apple in with Bose. Apple's stuff (mostly) works as advertised.

So does Bose, atleast to some. I'll give you that Apples products are generally of higher quality especially products like their computers but from an overall perspective I find both companies very similar.

Yeah, but if a Mac is listed as running at 2.66 GHz, with 4 GB of RAM, it has that. If Apple talks about a program running on a Mac, it does that.

If Bose talks about music playing well on their speakers, they're out and out lying.

Apple generally discloses their designs, although they certainly have patents. Bose doesn't, and hides behind those patents.

Apple usually uses high quality parts and processes. Bose uses fiberboard and paper.

You can say their marketing is kinda similar, but...

I'm not sure how you got $11K with that config, but I'm curious if you tried to configure similar at Dell or HP. In the past, if you got into the workstation territory, the 3 companies were pretty equivalent--except maybe in the cost of RAM. Maybe.

Their biggest marketing tool, their commercials (advertising computers) are a dishonest and misleading way to market a product IMO. Enough to not want me to buy their products.

Everyone's commercials are misleading. That's why I don't watch 'em.

Pentium 4--speeds up the internet!
Sony PS3--turns you into a bloodthirsty maniac!
Pepsi--makes you cool!
Drugs--gives you free fried eggs!

Neither of those 3 companies main adversting campaign is to directly attack their competitors to the degree Apple has. If your product is so great tell me about it. Its a slimy way to do business. Pepsi has done it in the past but nobody takes the cake like Apple.

BTW I don't drink Pepsi either.

People complained when Apple had non specific ads (which were, btw, authorized by the families or the people in them). Now people complain when they advertise against their competitors?

OK, how about this one:
nVidia--the way it's meant to be played.
Microsoft's massive, massive, massive campaigns against Linux. They sponsor studies, man. Bad ones, at that.

Microsoft are no angels either - not as bad as Apple IMO. Products generally cheaper, some better than Apples, others not. Microsofts products for the most part also do not incorporate a proprietary design or proprietary mandatory software. Example: I-Tunes for their I-pods.

Um. Zune software for Zunes? You can't even use a Zune with a Mac.

You see any open source Xbox 360s lying around?


Gah, I can't believe I'm in an Apple argument online. I've said my say. I'm out.

I think Richard Stallman would kiss you.

Like I said earlier, Microsoft deserves a lot of bashing as well from their debacle with the 360 and how that was handled as well as people gripes with Vista. But from an overall perspective when it comes pricing, advertising/marketing and proprietary designs and software I see them as the better of two evils. Similar reasons on why I don't care for Bose (overpriced, marketing techniques and proprietary designs)

It was back in June. I just tried a similar config now, 4 months later, and the machine runs about $6400. That's also with SATA instead of the faster SAS drives.

Can't... stop...

Pricing:
Microsoft Windows 7: upgrade starts at $99
OS X Snow Leopard: $29

Proprietary designs? Proprietary designs? Dude, Microsoft is the mother of proprietary designs, at least when it comes to software
MAPI
Active Directory
.doc
NTFS
the list goes on.

Of course, they have some open stuff too.

Now, one can easily argue that proprietary designs aren't all bad, heck, maybe they're not bad at all. But you cannot hold Microsoft up as example of a company that doesn't use proprietary designs.

Apple? Well, they use a lot of open source stuff. Yes, the iPod is closed. Yes, it only works with iTunes by design, and vice versa. Yes, OS X only runs on Apple hardware (by design). But when they can use open source, they tend to do so, and they return to the community (sometimes). Webkit would be a prime example. AAC is also an open standard. Is WMA? Not to my knowledge.

Personally, I find Microsoft's advertising to be more insipid, annoying, and counter-factual than Apple's, but that's my perspective. I can't argue that Apple's ads aren't misleading to some degree (hey, what happened to PC gamers?), but they're hardly in a league of their own.

Yeah, I saw they didn't have SAS drives available any more. What's up with that?

I never said they didn't. My argument is they are the lesser of two evils.

BURRRRRNNNNN HIM!!!



The popularity of the Hackintosh movement is a compelling testament to how overpriced Apple hardware is.

Hey, that's fine. That's a reasonable argument. I prefer ESX, myself. Oh wait, that doesn't count...

Popularity? Maybe online at gadget sites.

Should have qualified my like of Windows 7 over Mac OS X. See, I like to be able to use my computer to do things, not just listen to music. While my photo processing software is available for both Win and Mac, most of my other day-to-day work just doesn't have a Mac version of an equivalent which isn't lacking in features. Mac software is always very easy to use, which usually translates into doesn't offer enough options to be really powerful.

I pick Windows 7, because Vista came too early, and with 16 GB of RAM, I need a 64-bit OS, XP64 is worse still.

In the end though, I spend a lot of time booted into Linux, included in that is the 8 hours of work each day where it is all I use.

Backpeddler.

I was just yanking your chain, Ken.

And I never heard a Bose product I liked. Ever.

I don't know that I have, either. I hate the Wave radio--horribly boomy. I'm sure it's good for what it is, but I just don't like minisystems or clock radios at all anyway.

The wave radio is what it is; a clock radio that you can hook up a c.d player to. Not a bad product but grossly overpriced. Would never buy one.

Yes, while typing that I did think that an Apple Store sounds a bit like that too. There definitely is hype and image when it comes to Apple products.

However...

Apple products have some merit. Apple design and R&D has had an enormous impact on consumer electronics. The iPod defined what an MP3 player is, and is far-and-away the most successful portable music player. The iPhone redefined what is possible with a cell phone. Has Bose contributed anything to the audio world that has had an impact like that?

And as far as the age-old PC vs Mac debate... Yes, Macs cost a little more than their spec-equivalent PC. But, there are quantifiable benefits to owning a Mac. We can debate which is "better" ad nauseum. Some of us like Macs. Some like PC's. Some like Linux. It's all good. You've got to use the best tool for the job at hand. The point is, there are some reasons why owning a Mac is a superior choice over a PC. And vice-versa.

I can think of no reason to choose Bose over anything else.

Great line!

fnM$

When I bought Vista I expected them to fix it rather than dumping it and charging me for the PR/launch mess they created.

FWIW I think Apple makes good product. They are the only company that I know that consistantly gets the UI right and to me that is the critical part of any application.

I just don't like the way they always lock things down to lock you in.

Virtually all of us get branded and sucked into the " cool" factor (I am not one of these people) and Apple is the best at sucking people in. IMO the "cool" factor has far more impact than any good that Apple has done to the industry; it's become the most successful portable music player because of this, not because it's supposedly good, or more advanced at the time.

It bothers me to no end when people buy products based on the aforementioned premises. Yes there are educated buyers, but it is the tots and image driven folks that are driving the sales which easily supersede the educated ones; it has nothing to do with technological advancement in these circumstances .

I purchased a Zune because I'm anti apple for the reasons mentioned.

Oh yes, these cohorts create their own little subculture, especially noticeable on university and college campuses. Years ago you would see a group of five or six people leaving school donning their yellow Tommy Hilfiger jackets, now just replace those jackets with an iPod.

Good post wheelz. We really have not even touched on brand image yet which also ties in with the marketing. That can be a discussion all on its own. Its funny that you brought up images of students walking university campuses with their iPods because that was one the first thoughts that came to my mind as well.

The MP3 player I use does not resemble an iPod in any way so it is interesting some of the remarks you get from people when they ask what it is. The reactions from people make for a great social experiment.

The Bose marketing machine is in full swing lately, I've seen a lot more than the usual advertising from them lately(Christmas season approaching?).

Wheelz. I agree with you that cool factor is a marketing guys ultimate wet dream, but Apple ususally gets both sides of the equation right: cool factor and useability. Windows (the UI) owes its existance to Apple.

Bose, on the other hand, is a pure wet dream machine.

Quite right, Fred. People who choose not to buy Apple products simply because Apple products are popular and perceived as cool by certain sectors of the population are making choices based on a false dichotomy. For every idiot flashing his Apple hardware out in public to be seen, there are scores of more modest people who chose Apple's hardware over the alternatives because they prefer the user experience.

I could have had practically any laptop I wanted at work. I got a Mac. I could have gotten practically any mobile phone. I got an iPhone. I made these choices in spite of the silly cool factor.

I wasn't making a sweeping generalization about the "cool" factor and owners of Ipods (Apple), which is why I said that there are educated people like yourself that make choices the way they should be made.

And yes Fred, I agree with you, but I believe the "cool" factor easily outweighs usability.

Also, if it's perceived as being a false dichotomy when choosing anything but that which is perceived by anyone as being "cool", well, I'm okay with that. The majority of people (Ipods appealing to the younger generation for the most part) are buying them because of the image.

I will be sticking with my false dichotomy to be individualistic.

I don't know. Choosing a Zune over an iPod seems like as much of a statement as choosing one cola over another. I'm sure you have other much more meaningful flourishes of individuality.

Going back to this post. I was just thinking how many times I've heard this exact story. Yeah, that's great they replaced your item no questions asked, twice. Then everyone defends Apple's higher prices on the fact that they use quality parts. Aren't these two scenarios at odds with each other? Perhaps Apple's higher prices are due to the number of warranty replacements they know they're going to have to do.

Apple's customer service can be quite good. Their replacement policy can be dumbfounding (in a positive way). Sometimes you take something into the genius bar for repair, even when it's out of warranty. Then they will fix it or replace it, all with a good attitude. For me, in this day and age, that kind of customer service is unparalleled. Yeah, there's the Apple tax, but sometimes, it's good to have paid it. I'm also lucky to be w/ in 5 minutes of 2 Apple Stores, both w/ Genius Bars. So all I have to do is go online to make an apt and then show up 5 min before. Maybe Microsoft will copy that in their stores, that would be great for Win 7 and Zune users.

Going back to Bose...I didn't want to bash but I heard a funny commercial on their Wave Radio today. My F.I.L. has one and I think it sounds great for a clock radio. They were giving testimonials and gave a quote from the "News-Gazette". I thought it was a joke, that's like News News. But lo and behold, it's a paper in Illinois. Really? That's the best name?

I chuckle when I see ads for the Bose desktop computer speakers or the Wave Radio in magazines like Scientific American....Doh!

I think that makes you dichotic, but we need to consult with JP to confirm.

Well we were in college in the '70s.......close to the '60s - so it all sounded good mainly because it was loud. Plus, we thought the equalizer was "cool". The other guy on the hall had JBL 300s and there was always the argument over which was better. Of course in the 70's it was before Al Gore invented the internet where I could ask more informed folks such as the ones here.

I want to stress that I am not defending Apple just making some observations. Your supposition on price is just that - supposition. They can charge the price that the market will bear. Part of the pricing is no doubt due to the fact that there are Apple stores and Genius Bars in the first place. And it is nice to make an appt on line and then get answers on the spot. My Genius was a young guy wearing a VN Tiger Camo booney hat with the sides rolled up to make it look sort of cowboyish. He said that the on/off button not working was highly unusual?

Those arguments are true for alot more than just Bose speakers.

But just in case Peter, now you ARE really cool, for certain!

[quote=chesserooBut just in case Peter, now you ARE really cool, for certain! [/quote]
Yeah, but thats not his fault.

I'm confident enough in myself -- at least I hope I come off that way -- that I have no need for bling in any of its forms.




I'm not confident to stut in the buff, though.

Wheels, (the post is too far back to go back and quote) ((cause I'm lazy)) (((I heard that!))).

But I agree. I avoided Apple out of principal and bought a Zune 2 years ago and I was extremely happy with the product. However, a need, combined with MS refusing to even make plans to launch the new Zune HD in Canada, combined with "Finally" a 64GB flash model has brought an iPod Touch into my hands & you know what, I'm very happy with it.

I would have preferred a 64GB Zune HD, even if I had to wait a bit for it's release here but neither was going to happen soon. It was expensive at $460 after taxes but when I was able stand outside at the barbecue, slide my finger down the screen and remotely change my Squeezebox to some Collective Souls instead of the 80s dance crap that will remain unverified, I smiled!

Later, when its web browser saved a friend some embarrassment by demonstrating, last minute, that her chosen song for her book launch had very inappropriate lyrics for a book on 'survivors of abusive home lives', it pretty much paid for itself.

The wiki tool is also super fast with links to related youtube videos. It has come in handy as well.

In short, I still hope somebody gives them some stronger competition but I must now admit that they do make some nice, if overpriced, products.

On the bling side, I'm with Peter. I've already misplaced the trademark white, Apple ear phones because they sounded like crap. I'm missing the functionality of the microphone but the Zune 80 earphones sound sooo much better.

If I can find them again, I might download and play with the DB meter app for fun.

Awww mannnn, now I might have to get a touch too.

Both my daughters have Touches. Probably getting my wife a Macbook after the experience my youngest has had with her college Macbook (Her Touch came free with the Macbook). (I think there might be something in the Kool Ade)

This video came up on my "recommended videos list" on Youtube today, which is extremely ironic. Anyway, is anyone actually going to buy this thing? Yes, Apple is innovative, but this?

Have to love the reasons the guy has for buying one.

Murph, I agree with you. I could have bought anything I wanted to at the time, but went with the Zune. The touchscreen would be, and is far easier for me to use(the reason I have a Harmony 1000). I have immense difficulty using my Zune, but I stuck to my guns (that's not a jab at you either).

Wheelz, you do know that video was created by The Onion, a parody news outlet?

No I didn't, I do now though. I thought it was too silly to be true. Rather apropos though

RE: Mac vs. PC, Coke vs. Pepsi, I-Pod vs Zune....


So, I stopped into a Bose store....

Nice video. I like how it predicts the full sentence.

"The aardvark arrived by air mail" was just what I was going for. Thanks, Apple Wheel!