Well since Ray has made a formal declaration, I might as well confess to those who are unaware of the fact, that I've had Rocket 850s, an RSC200 "Bigfoot" center channel, and a UFW-10 subwoofer, for a couple of months now, with a pair of RSS300 surrounds, an Emotiva Ultra Light preamp and amplifier, and an RDES (Rocket Digital Equalization System for subwoofer equalization), yet to come.
Believe it or not, this is all a gift from Mark Schifter, the owner of Onix/Rocket. It's a long story, but to sum up, Mark decided to give a Home Theater Makeover to some deserving person. Unbeknown to me, Craig Chase (Craigsub) submitted my name. And, much to my surprise, I was chosen. I have been reluctant to talk about it for two reasons.
One, I wished to avoid the inevitable "which is better" question. For, no matter which way I answered, I ran the risk of offending people who are my GOOD friends, and about whom I care a great deal. Fortunately, the truth is, they are both excellent speakers, with a, IMHO, slightly different sound. Each brings positives and negatives to the table, and I could be happy with either one in my home.
Secondly,Mark has already been accused by his enemies of doing this strictly as a marketing ploy, by luring an owner and advocate of a competitor's product into his camp thereby turning me into a Rocket shill. NOTHING could be further from the truth.
Mark made no attempt to publicize this other than on his own forum. I even offered to notify the local media, thinking they might find a story like this interesting. He didn't even bother to respond. When he came to my home to set up this system, he quietly took me aside and told me he expected NO comparison of the Rockets to the Axioms, and I have judiciously avoided making any. I don't think for one minute that Mark had anything like that in mind, but regardless, I have hardly turned into a Rocket Shill. Recently, in a thread at AVS where a poster asked about the Rockets and another brand (Paradigm?) I suggested the Axioms when he mentioned that the speakers would be concealed so finish and looks didn't matter to him. I am, and always will be, a supporter of Axiom the company, Axiom the product, and Axiom the forum. Though I DO lust after the soon-to-be-released Rocket UFW-12 sub woofer, I equally lust after an EP500 or EP600, NONE of which is even a remote possibility, budgetwise.
Mark's enemies has opted to disparage him for alleged manipulation, rather than praise him for simply doing a kind and generous thing for another human being. It disgusts me.
If you're REALLY interested, you can go to this
thread and read all about it. There are photos of Mark, and Craig, who drove in from Erie, Pa, and, yes, even our own Ray, who drove all the way from Rochester to share in the fun. We had a ball
Cast of characters:
Rijax/Ajax - Dat's me
Mark L. Schifter - Mark L. Schifter
BigCigar - Craig Chase (Craigsub)
Ray3 - Yup. It's him.
It's a long thread, but if you just stick to the posts by the above, and look at the pics (pages 4, 5, &11), you'll get a good idea of how, who, what, when, and where.
You got questions or comments, fire away. I'll answer any and all EXCEPT "which is better"?
Schill away.
So which is better?
LOL!
Have I mentioned, lately, that you're a pain in the butt!
Jack, I remain entertained by your writing skills, humbled by your integrity and grateful for your friendship.
Maybe you and Ray need to say a Rosary or something.
Wow, I just spent an hour reading that thread. There was no mention, however, about the Emotiva products. I bet those things are some impressive amps. I bet they make those Rockets sing.
So you seem to have found that the Rockets are able to make great recordings like Diana Krall sound amazing while also making bad recordings sound great as well?
You really ought to check out the Elton John SACD's if you are at all a fan. I own all 6 of them and think that they are absolutely amazing.
Ajax,
Everything and everyone seems to get bogged down in competition. Which system sounds better? Which system looks better? Frankly, if you're happy with it, who cares?
Although I'm new to the board, I've been reading it for a long time. I understand your trepidation, but I think we're a pretty inclusive bunch. I think. . .
Have fun enjoying your new system!
Thank you Tom and Sean.
Snippy, I 'm not sure what you mean by "There was no mention, however, about the Emotiva products" In the very first post Mark says "...with EMOTIVA UL's picking up the rear later in April..."
The ULs have not been released yet, and Mark ASKED if it would be OK with me if he sent them to those who payed for them before he sent me mine. I think there has been some delays, so I'm not looking for mine until "whenever."
If you want to read about the Emotiva ULs, go
here.
Wow!
Two thoughts:
1. It couldn't happen to a nicer guy, and I'm not saying that just because I owe you money
.
2. Nice to see the photo and put faces to the names.
enjoy !
Jack - I've got the exact same DVD storage - mission style, light cherry. Great piece, isn't it?
Congrats, by the way. Who ever said there's no free lunch? And the Rockets do look very pretty.
Ray and Jack,
You know I have the utmost respect for the two of you. Your honesty and conduct are examples of the best.
I have one question about posting these decisions out in the open. How do you think potential Axioms or newbies will react to these posts in the Axiom forum?
I'd personally see it as a good thing. That the community is mature enough to let someone have a different opinion on something as subjective as speaker preferance is a good thing, no? Plus neither of them are saying "GO BUY THESE SPEAKERS!"
jr
Yes...I see it that way too for established folks in the hobby as well. I am wondering more about the new customers and newbies.
Being the great guys they are, they would never say "go buy", but it is the action of the change making the statement.
I was thinking the same, Curtis...
...but then I thought that it's really a healthy thing. If someone is easily swayed by a single person changing brands (and it seems to have as much to do with WAF as anything else), they're probably the same kind of person that looks at an eBay seller's profile and says "Hmmm... he averages an A++++++++ - GRATE SURVICE!, I like my sellers to usually get at least 10 'pluses'..."
My HT is going to soon be all Axiom (currently my centre is not, and it sounds like crap), but I use Edirol products (Roland by any other name - 3 sets of MA-10Ds and one set of MA-20Ds) as audio monitors and near-fields. They sound more "mass market" for mixing for television and other home presentation. I mulled over using M2s and M22s, but the additional hassle of having a separate amp (the Edirols are powered) made them a lot less portable and small space friendly.
Unlike women, you can love many speakers for different reasons!
Bren R.
In reply to:
you can love many speakers
how's gettin funky with the ports now, eh?
bigjohn
In reply to:
you can love many speakers
who's gettin funky with the ports now, eh?
bigjohn
That's a REALLY excellent Question, Curtis. As you know, I've waited several months to reveal this openly, and that is one of the questions I've asked myself, and one of the reasons I've felt "damned if I do; damned if I don't." Unfortunately, I've come to no satisfactory answer.
Your point about the action of change making the statement is well taken. However a reasonable person will only infer from that change that that I have made a subjective assessment of MY circumstances, MY wants, and MY needs. I suppose there will be those who read this that will think this change means that in my opinion Rockets are "better" than Axioms. Though not true, it is unavoidable. First, I would never say that. Second, "better" is a completely subjective conclusion.
The LAST thing I would want to do is hurt Axiom in any way. I have nothing but the highest respect for the company and the product. The truth is I've not yet heard, or seen the perfect speaker. There are things about the Axioms I prefer, and there are things about the Rockets I prefer. But, no matter what I say, it will be inferred that I prefer one or the other.
My reasons for remaining on this board are twofold. One, I have a lot of friends here whom I like, admire, and respect. Two, I happen to know a fair amount about Axioms, and maybe I just might be able to help someone, with a question or problem. I am not here to promote Rockets any more than I am a member of the av123 forum to promote Axioms. I am here to help.
Without knowing, it is not unreasonable to think Axiom maintains this board in the hopes it will help sell some Axioms. I would be surprised if that was the main goal of it's members. My goal is, and always has been, to share my experience with Axioms, thereby, hopefully, helping someone make the choice that is right for them. If someone came here saying they wanted a warm, laid-back speaker, I'd be hard pressed to recommend Axioms to them. It is my oft stated belief that Axiom is more interested in a satisfied customer than they are in making a quick sale. Having a dissatisfied purchaser doesn't do Axiom any good.
If this thread is an unwelcome one, or in any way is detrimental to Axiom, I wholeheartedly support it's deletion, and will harbor no malice for doing so. I remain a staunch supporter of Ian and Amie and Axiom, and, yes, of Mark and Rockets. But, I am NOBODY'S sycophant.
As always Jack....we put! Thanks!
In reply to:
If this thread is an unwelcome one, or in any way is detrimental to Axiom, I wholeheartedly support it's deletion, and will harbor no malice for doing so. I remain a staunch supporter of Ian and Amie and Axiom, and, yes, of Mark and Rockets. But, I am NOBODY'S sycophant.
Jesus, Jack... a few $10 words in that one. I mean, I've seen some truly angry elephants, but none that register as "syco-phants"!
I don't think ANYONE would object to this message thread. Especially after all the ones that haven't been deleted with such content as "b0s3 r ThA b0mm hahahshshsahaha SuK3rz!"
We still love you, pookie...
Bren R.
You're right. I shoulda just said a$$-kisser instead of sycophant. I'm sorry if I sounded fiesty. It's a hangover from a recent brouhaha over at AVS where I stood up to a bully and was accused of taking my stance ONLY because I was given some free speakers.
curtis,
My thoughts run similar to Jack's. Let me just do a bit of rambling here and let you add it up in whatever order you like.
I shared my change over because my overriding concern was to assure that I was upfront. I didn't want to appear as hypocritical or have my integrity questioned if it was "discovered" that I had Rockets while everyone thought I had Axioms. On the thread I started eaqrlier today, you saw some confusion along those lines in snippy's post. Honesty and integrity form a powerful elixir and avoid the perception of hypocrisy.
The difficult piece, and Jack and I have discussed this, is what Jack articulated. It would absolutely be a mistake to assume that the switch from one set to another represented a definitive statement or value judgment that one speaker was better than the other. Jack said it as well as it can be stated - it's a shading of preferences - no more, no less.
I think both speakers are excellent. You will not, in fact, see me post a detailed diatribe about which speaker does what better or worse. In this particular scenario, that would be a disservice to both companies/speakers and neither deserve that. There are at least two Axiom board members who have two setups in their homes - 1 Axiom and 1 Onix. In fact, when I settle into the now house, I will need bookshelves for the great room and I may end up with M3s.
Unfortunately, I agree with your conclusion - some will read the information and find a negative embedded where none exists. As a result of the posts Jack and I have made, they may draw a conclusion that one set is "better" or "worse" than the other. I am hopeful that there are limited instances of that, because I find no downside in either product that is worth mentioning that would constitute a knockout in choosing it.
The entire hobby is all about subjectivity. I might end up with a set of Paradgims to replace the Rockets and a set of B&Ws to replace the Paradigms. The type of person who will spend the $$ involved here will most often do the research and trust the final tie-breaker - their own ears.
The really key message is that the denizens of both the Axiom and AV123 boards are spepcial and I have some good friends on both. My intent is to foster those relationships because I treasure them. Curtis, you should resonate to that since you listen to Ascends.
I guess my final thought is this. This stuff is not important in the real world. It's a hobby, a passion, a pastime that we all enjoy and have come together to share. I still marvel at some of the online arguments I see and can't understand how over-reactive some folks get and the speed with which testosterone can fill the air in some of the discussions. That's when I need to pop in a DVD or CD and just enjoy my choices with the lights a little dim and an adult beverage to round off the corners for me.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
In reply to:
We still love you, pookie...
I think I can feel my teeth beginning to decay...
Jack,
Well said, as always, my friend.
Seriously, don't you go anywhere or let anyone allow you to second-guess your current situation (posted or not). I'd wager that almost anyone will understand the circumstances...
Jack and the word "shill" in the same sentence?: "Inconceivable!"
We (as a forum) have dealt with "Islands in the Streem"...we can handle this.
As long as your ears are happy, we are happy...not to mention your Mom probably appreciates them as well.
After all, our ears are as individual as each of us...it would be a very boring (not to mention extremely bizarre) world if everyone was Jack, or Ray, or me...Subjectively speaking, may your ears find pleasure in what makes them happy.
Live from Austin, Texas.
WhatFurrer
I think we're all just a bit despairing because we never seem to be able to get a good comparison between Axiom and Rocket speakers other than via third hand rumours and misspelled diatribe from people who have heard neither.
We were all thinking "cool, Ray AND Jack have Rockets now, surely ONE of them will shed some light on how they compare. I think we all expect there to be some significant differences and we expect good healthy argument about which is better, but I'm starting to suspect this is some kind of secret marketing strategy -- "shh, don't tell anyone what Rockets sound like, make them buy their own if they wanna find out".
They know curiosity is gonna get us in the end
bridgman, funny post. I have stated my feeling about the two set ups in the past. Do a search.
I know that Ray and Jack feel the same way I do on this matter so I will blabber for a little bit.
The problem with stating what you feel is that it is "what you feel". What one of us hears in the Rockets vs the Axioms may not be what others hear. I have stated in the past that I find speaker reviews full of BS because how do they know that I will hear or feel what they hear and feel. So, Jack and Ray will not post their "vs" notes because they know that their experience may not be anothers and (2) because of #1 there will be bad blood started. (3) Ray, Jack and I love both speakers and find great qualities in both lines so why create waves.
I think that anyone can get a good feeling of the overall sound of an Axiom or a Rocket by reading enough on the boards. Just like any review, always take it with a grain of salt and throw out words like Harsh (Axioms) or Laidback (Rockets). I own both lines and have not found those words apply at all.
So...do your reading and if you live in the area of a Rocket owner go and get your own impressions. Then post those thoughts please
"They sound more "mass market" for mixing for television and other home presentation."
We don't often agree, Bren, but you have that one nailed. I don't listen to much TV - outside of the digital music channels - on my Axiom HT.
Jack, don't be naive.
You were specifically chosen to be the recipient of free Rockets because:
-you are NOT a schill. Everybody knows that.
-you were not 100% completely in love with the sound of your Axioms (recall the PMs we exchanged some year or two ago?). If you did truly love the Axiom sound, you would not prefer Rockets.
-you are a trusted, active, prolific internet poster. Giving speakers to you (which are obviously better suited for your listening preferences) and then letting you loose on the boards results in instant sales for that company.
It is just silly to believe that somebody gave you thousands of dollars worth of audio equipment because the guy wanted to do something "nice". Why not give the stuff to somebody with no HT? or with Bose?
It was calculated.
It was smart.
Two questions:
Who do you reckon informed Mark of your dis-satisfaction with Axioms?
And would you please report back after spending 2 years with the new system?
In reply to:
It is just silly to believe...
Ouch.
First of all, you can't get a "home theater makeover" if you don't have a home theater. Second, you're quite cynical and stomped all over the magic. <sigh>
In reply to:
It was calculated. It was smart.
I would tend to agree. I hate to say it but this sounds more fishy than an honest move to me but then again, I could be wrong.
Jack you and I have been on the wrong page with each other in the past but........ it's wrong that you got all that stuff for free. You should send it to me now so I can do the right thing with it!
And...................who cares what speakers we all have anyway? It's about the fun of kicking back listening to tunes or a movie on whatever floats our respective boats!
I simply don't believe Mark Schifter is taking advantage of Jack to sell more speakers. Nor do I feel Jack would allow such a thing. I'm sure he'll divulge a little further on this matter.
>>I simply don't believe Mark Schifter is taking advantage of Jack to sell more speakers. Nor do I feel Jack would allow such a thing.
I don't think anyone is saying this. A fair question is whether this is a smart promotional move on AV123's part. My thought is "yes, but what's wrong with that ?".
Audio mfgs with traditional dealer networks spend a bunch of money spiffing the dealers to build awareness and get support. Manufacturers who sell direct via Internet (Axiom and AV123 both) are able to work directly with end customers, so it only makes sense that their promotion and marketing efforts should be aimed there as well.
I would rather see Jack get a new system than some dealer... although I do agree with NeverHappy's observation. This is obviously and evil and dastardly scheme, so the best thing you could do is pack the new system off to some other deserving board member so you can sleep nights.
Pick me, pick me !!!
Yes. It's a smart promotional move, but after reading about how it occurred, and particularly after learning more about the people involved, I'd say the "promotional" aspect was not even considered. It's just a nice benefit that comes with acts of kindness.
Businesses that treat people well will reap the rewards. There's nothing new about this.
I wanted to say(from my previous post) what Peter said but couldn't spit the right words out.
I have done an investigation into this issue and now have the facts.
In my investigation Jack was targeted by an international marketing firm (USUK inc) because of his vast knowledge of every product, his massive reputation within the industry and his coercive manner. I have documents (and some embarrassing pictures) in my possession showing that Jack in a Russian speaker training camp going over the in's and out's of being a shill. You think that the pics of Jack, Mark, Craig and Ray were innocent? If you view them long enough you will see the word "Rocket" flash thousand of times a second. Futher evidence of the brain washing.
Now, now you say. This is not the Jack we all know and love!! Believe me, this went through my head as well but because of our inactivity Ray has been mind washed! I cringe when I think of who is next.
LOL!! Where's that rolling on the floor smiley?
Smiley?!?!? This is serious stuff!!
Mark, don't be so cynical.
I have NEVER said I prefer the Rockets. What I HAVE said is there are things about the Rockets I prefer; there are things about the Axioms I prefer.
I hate to break it to you, but if I "do not "truly love" the Axiom sound, I do not "truly love" the Rocket sound either. How many times must I say this. I have NEVER heard a perfect speaker. Each has flaws.
Though I may be wrong, I don't believe I ever said I was "dissatisfied" with the Axiom sound. If I did, I misspoke. "Dissatisfied, implies I was looking for something better. At no time was I ever looking for anything better than the Axiom M60s. When I first received my M22s, I missed something, that was completely solved by moving to the M60s. I refer you to
this post. If that's being "dissatisfied." I'll have to plead guilty.
Define "prolific internet poster." I've been a member at AVS since July 2003 and have a grand total of 347 posts for an average of .58 posts per day. Not exactly prolific. While I have posted at 3 other general forums, I have probably less than 25 posts at each.
Therefore, I have not been "let loose" on the forums. In the two months I've had the Rockets, I've been involved in only one thread where I defended Mark Schifter against totally unsupported accusations. I have never defended Rocket speakers. I don't believe, other than that one thread, I've even mentioned Rockets other than here and at av123. If I have, it has been so few times that I don't remember them. Mark must be very disappointed in the "instant sales" I've failed to generate.
Why is it "silly" to believe Mark had any other motive than doing something nice for someone. You ask "Why not give the stuff to somebody with no HT? or with Bose?"
Perhaps his gift to me has something to do with the fact that I'm a Viet Nam veteran. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that I'm the sole caregiver for my 92 year old Mother who has dementia and needs constant care. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that, in the 4 and 1/2 years I've been caring for her 24/7, 7/52, with not one day off, I've been out of this apartment maybe 20 times socially, and almost never for more than an hour or two. When my friends are in town they are gracious enough to gather at a restaurant nearby so I can run home every hour to check on Mom. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that in 4 1/2 years I've not been to a movie or a concert, and that my only form of entertainment is my A/V system. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that I'm fighting rheumatoid arthritis myself, am in constant pain. Or, perhaps it has something to do with the fact that I have little money other than my Social Security disability. Perhaps Mark found all this deserving. Perhaps you don't. Regardless, I chose to believe that Mark just wanted to do something nice for someone.
Since I have never been "dissatisfied" with my Axioms, I'll bite. Who do YOU think misinformed Mark that I was dissatisfied with my Axioms?
You know, I did not fully read Bigwills comment and I have to agree, it is offensive. I hope to hell you were kidding with your comments. To even think that Jack would be "targeted" in any fashion is utterly ignorant to say the least. To shoot off at the mouth like that is an insult not only to Jack but to the forum as a whole. I also have seen the kindness of the people over at av123 and to read into that kindness is in a word sad. I think you owe Jack both a private and public apoligy for such a stupid set of comments. As Ray put it, this is a hobby, who really cares what speakers float your boat? Bigwill, do you really care enough that you have to make a comment that could hurt someones feelings? Open you eyes!
In fairness, I don't think Jack's integrity was ever questioned by BigWill or anyone else. The "offending post" said exactly the opposite, in fact -- that Jack was someone who could be trusted and therefore if he was a happy owner people would know it was because the speakers were good not because he had been given anything...
You know what I mean.
One other comment. What we're seeing here is the curse of the internet. You can type something with a big grin on your face for the sole purpose of yanking someone's chain for fun, but nobody knows that when the post hits the board. It's really [EDIT] easy to get caught up, say something intended to be in jest, and have it taken the wrong way.
I think that is what happened here. Everyone go try a new beer and report back in 30 minutes in the beer thread. I only have rye, hope that is OK
John,
You may, in fact, be correct. As such, I have deleted my post. Thank you for the cool headed assessment.
Ray
I hope you are right. I for one did not read his post that way. If it was a joke then I am sure that he will not have a problem stating that.
In reply to:
Everyone go try a new beer
So, things should be lightened up a bit?
Let me try that again....
So Mark, who's got the bigger gun?
You or Bridgman?
Ha!
Mine is too big to even fit on the M60!
Hah. You call THAT a knife ?
Ruger 22/45 bull barrel
Para 14/45 limited
Ruger Redhawk 44 magnum
Savage 10FP .308
Stoeger over/under 12 gauge (Brazilian)
Stoeger semiautomatic 12 gauge (Beretta clone)
M60s
Folks, much as it pains me to admit it, particularly in front of my friends...
Mark's barrel IS longer than mine ;(
Wait a minute... is that a .357 ? If so, you know what they say...
Jack,
I'm almost at the end of that wonderful thread on how you got your Rockets.
What a wonderful story, and I have to say, after reading most of it, and having enjoyed your posts here since I arrived, I cannot imagine anyone more deserving.
Good for you!
And Bravo for the way that you (and Ray for that matter) have handled the entire Axiom vs Rocket issue. This whole subject isn't a competition with one absolute victor declared at the finish line.
It is all about personal preferences and enjoyment.
That is one of the things I like so much about these forums, and after taking a look at the AV123 boards, I suspect this is a feature over there as well.
Congrats!
(and it was fun to see the pictures of you guys together.)
Tom
I enjoyed reading that thread as well Seabear. Good call on your part.
in reply to bridgman:
____________________________________________________________
"Wait a minute... is that a .357 ? If so, you know what they say..."
____________________________________________________________
I'm curious. What do they say about that?
>>I'm curious. What do they say about that?
Something about width being more important than length. . I don't want to go into details, this is a family board, but in my books .423 beats .357 any day
Eh, with a barrel like that, he must be a bad shot. Right?
>>Eh, with a barrel like that, he must be a bad shot. Right?
Hey, the extra two inches gets you that much closer to the target. Every little bit helps.
It's funny... I picked up the .44 Redhawk from a friend of mine because I could shoot it really well. He wasn't happy with it but I could shoot tiny groups at 20 or 25 yards. 44s and I just seem to get along. No idea why... it's heavy, my hand shakes holding it, and it kicks real hard when you pull the trigger... but half the time all the bullet holes touch in the target. Go figure...
On the other hand I couldn't shoot a Glock accurately if my life depended on it. They work great for all my friends... I can barely hit the target.
In reply to:
but I could shoot tiny groups at 20 or 25 yards
You know,
that Randy Newman song wasn't meant to be taken literally.
(Second link goes to an iTunes clip. If you'd prefer a Windows Media Player clip, click
here)
(Sorry for the HiJack-Jack....But it might be a
good thing!
)
John:
I concede, my friend. The .357 is no competition for the .44. And I have also heard that girth is more important in, ummm, ballistics. I toyed with the Master, and he rolled up that newspaper and, with a light tap on the nose, reminds me of who the Alpha is.
But at least I
will say that my photography was better! That's something, isn't it? Isn't it? Huh?
I picked up the .44 Redhawk
Isn't that the one that shoots through schools?
(just to be clear, this is a Johnny Dangerously reference, not an attempt to make light of the tragic school shootings)
Thanks Seabear and all others for your words of support. It is most appreciated.
I'm sure you can understand, now, why there will be NO Rocket vs. Axiom comparison. I say nice things about the Rockets, I'm a dupe and a shill. I say nice things about the Axioms; I'm an ingrate. A lose/lose situation no matter what I say.
Hijack MUCH appreciated, Mark. Fire away! (NOT LITERALLY!)
In reply to:
Hijack MUCH appreciated, Mark.
After you stated your position so eloquently and in such a concise way, I figured you didn't need any words from me. Pictures! Yeah,
that's what I'm good at! And changing the subject. My wife says I'm good at that too!
Always go with your strengths!
In reply to:
Johnny Dangerously reference
my brother referenced me once, ONCE!!(pointing finger)
that movie cracks me up.
bigjohn
In reply to:
Johnny Dangerously reference
Stinkin' bastidges!
>>But at least I will say that my photography was better!
Your photography was superb. I was embarrassed to post a response. I don't know if you caught the editing action on my post but I had pretty much decided to bow to the new leader until I noticed that the (Smith ?) might be a .357 (whew, that was close).
Nice collection there. And also thanks for the hi-jack. Couldn't have come at a better time. We were thinking about starting "hey, look, over here" threads. I almost posted a "Fire !!!" thread but that would have been irresponsible...
Ajax,
Thank you very much for starting this thread, and for others to guide it to its logical conclusion.
As a result of this discussion I've cancelled my order for an Axiom HT setup (M22ti's, VP100, QS4's) and will instead be investing my money in an acoustically-matched set of Freedom Arms Model 83's chambered in .454 Casull.
The Casull provides clear surperiority in SPL levels (although its response isn't quite as flat) over the Axiom line. Better stopping power too.
In reply to:
Your photography was superb.
Well, I don't know about that... I could find some areas to improve. BUT... the photography was the only argument I had to allow me to admit ordnance defeat without having to completely skulk away with my head held low and my tail between my legs!
Well, I had to register a new name here at work due to problems with my laptop, but rest assured it is I, Big Will!
I have re-read Jack's original post, my post and Jack's response.
Obviously, I would never mean to offend Jack in any way. Jack is a good man, a kind man, and an intelligent man.
I wrote what I did because I felt it necessary to do so. You will note in Jack's original post that the phrase "home theater make-over" was used. Obviously this infers (based on what I have seen of "make over" shows on TV) that Jack's previous HT was woefully lacking and the replacement HT of higher quality.
So... do all Axiom HT owners need a "make over"?!
That position - that Axiom owners HTs are inferior, ghetto HTs in need of "make over" - is galling to say the least.
And, while you are completely deserving of anything good that comes your way in life, Jack, the magnanimity of Mark giving you a HT make over is akin to Enzo Ferrari donating his cars to poor Lotus owners.
I certainly meant no disrespect or offense to you, Jack.
Cool.
Now we can talk about guns.
"You know, I did not fully read Bigwills comment and I have to agree, it is offensive. I hope to hell you were kidding with your comments. To even think that Jack would be "targeted" in any fashion is utterly ignorant to say the least. To shoot off at the mouth like that is an insult not only to Jack but to the forum as a whole. I also have seen the kindness of the people over at av123 and to read into that kindness is in a word sad. I think you owe Jack both a private and public apoligy for such a stupid set of comments. As Ray put it, this is a hobby, who really cares what speakers float your boat? Bigwill, do you really care enough that you have to make a comment that could hurt someones feelings? Open you eyes!"
lomb7, no I wasn't kidding.
I'm glad to see you have appointed yourself the arbiter of etiquette on the Axiom forum. Actually, being called "utterly ignorant" by someone like you is practically a compliment.
Can you guess where I suggest you stick it?
Crap.
Now we can't talk about guns.
In reply to:
Now we can't talk about guns.
I know nothing about guns.......................
BigWill
Your testosterone level is off the charts recently.
You seem to be takeing Jacks good fortune, way too personally.
Does it REALLY matter to you the motivation behind Jacks new H/T.
I for one would be happy to recieve a new H/T even if I didnt need one or if it wasnt Axiom based.
That doesnt mean I love my Axioms any less.
Not every good deed is some kind of conspiracy.
>>I know nothing about guns.......................
Imagine an SVS cylinder sub but smaller. They cost about the same, you put something in one end and loud percussive noises come out the other end. You don't want to stand too close to either of them, and you particularly don't want to be standing in front of the opening on either one. Guns do more damage to the object in front of the port, but subwoofers do more damage to off-axis objects.
The analogy breaks down when you have a matched pair. Using two guns simultaneously is an affectation, using two subs simultaneously is really cool.
>>That position - that Axiom owners HTs are inferior, ghetto HTs in need of "make over" - is galling to say the least.
Lomb7/bigwill, I think you are both over-reacting. There is a difference between the very valid point that AV123 could get some business benefit from the makeover and the very debatable opinion that the primary reason for the whole exercise was cheap publicity.
MLS strikes me as someone who is able to mix "doing good" with good business sense. I don't see a problem with that and I don't think anyone else does either. Axiom does similar good deeds but you don't hear as much about them -- my theory is that most of Northern Ontario does not yet have access to the Internet
I think a lot of us feel like saying "hey, look, if you think this was ONE HUNDRED PERCENT altruistic then maybe you're missing something -- but it probably was seventy or eighty percent "good deed" and the rest "good business".
The problem with trying to reverse engineer the intent was that there are so many good reasons for choosing Jack as the recipient of the makeover and THERE IS NO WAY WE'RE EVER GOING TO KNOW which reasons dominated.
1. If I made speakers I was proud of I would want someone like Jack to own them -- someone who already knows what good speakers sound like, and could really enjoy and appreciate them.
2. If I was going from a pure "cold, calculating, how will I get the most promotional bang for my buck" perspective Jack would also be a good choice -- he's known to be impartial, active in the internet community, and if he likes the speakers people will know he's not just being a shill.
3. If circumstances were a factor, again Jack would be an ideal choice. He does need to spend a lot of time at home; who better to enjoy a fine audio system ? Far better than this "subwoofers for single mothers" thing I hear from time to time...
4. If I wanted to make a good natured dig at the competition, displacing an Axiom system would be a great way to do it. I find this hilarious personally; if I were in MLS's shoes I would probably do the same. Don't think it's something worth getting upset about and I'm sure Ian is chuckling about it himself.
Anyways, if you find option 2 offensive then think about options 1, 3, and 4. The truth is that all of them probably factored into the decision -- believing option 2 was not even a consideration might be a bit naive but believing option 2 was the only consideration is probably far too cynical.
Geez, I'm glad it's Mark and I with the guns.
ok, guns.
i have a Ruger P97DC, .45 caliber. its a good, reliable, high caliber handgun to start with. nothing fancy, just a solid performing slide action. it can be considered 'clunky' to people used to smaller, lighter hand guns. but, it fits my hand perfect, and the slide is very smooth with quick retraction/ejection/load action. i really like theis weapon, and would recommend it to anyone looking to move up to a large caliber slide action. i would NOT recommend this to first time shooters, or small body mass shooters. this gun kicks, and will cause muscle fatigue after a long day of firing.
my other handgun, is almost exactly like yours mark. well, i say 'mine', but its actually my wifes. she has a .38 smith/wesson airweight snub nose. standard black chassis, but we have had a custom grip. she likes to feel her fingers in the grooves of the grip, makes it more secure in her hand. this gun is super light, very small and easily concealable. this gun has a very fierce jolt when firing. and i say jolt, instead of kick, cause there is a difference. the Ruger has KICK, in other words, it rocks your hand, your arm, shoulder, and pretty much your whole body. the .38 has a quick jolt. being that the gun is so light, the brunt of the recoil is taken in your wrist, and it will give it a good snap. not enough to be painful or extreme, but enough to let you know you are firing something with some power. my wife loves the feel of this gun. and, ironically enough, it is damn near louder than my 45. reason is, the lightweight chassis, incorporated with cylinder firing mechanism, doesnt leave anything to help with absorbtion or deflection of sound. so, it lets off a good, high pitched snap when it fires. i like this feature, cause if my wife ever has to fire this gun in self defense, the sound alone will make the bad guy turn and run. it has a 5 shot cylinder which we load with 2 rat shots, then 3 mushrooms.
for hunting, i have 4 other guns. for small game and varmits, i have a Kimber 22-250. for deer, i have a remington .308. and for birds, i have a 12 gauge browning, and the classic remington model 1100, 20 gauge.
i really think that to get the feel for rifles and shotguns, you just need to go shoot different ones, and see what you like. try different brands and different calibers, and find the one that you are comfortable with. i truly believe that most arms made by reliable companies, are all quality products. it just simply comes down to a matter of preference. so, for someone that might be interested, just remember that price does not necessarily equte to performance.
man, i was just about to post this, and went back to read it for errors, and i realized that i come off sounding like some gun crazed maniac. i assure you, i am not. i like to hunt, and i never even had my first handgun up til about 6 years ago.
EDIT- well said bridge and bray. i think it could have been part good deed, and part business, but its ALL good for jack. he didnt ask for this.. it is just one of those uniquely special events that dont happen to very many people in their lifetime. the last thing i, or anyone should try and do, is spoil that for jack.
bigwill- you and i agree/disagree on stuff all the time, but i think you kinda gotta rotten auora about this. isnt it easier just to say that something nice happened to a friend of ours, and leave it at that? i dont get why this seems to be a battle worth fighting for you?
bigjohn
Mark, thank you for the graciously offered words of conciliation. But before we let this drop, I would like to remark on this one point.
In reply to:
the magnanimity of Mark giving you a HT make over is akin to Enzo Ferrari donating his cars to poor Lotus owners.
I do not have the slightest idea of the value or quality of either of those automobiles. They are a just a tad out of my price range. But, I infer from that statement that you feel Mark didn't do anything but change the brand of my speakers.
If that is your implication, I would point out that the M60s retail for $900 while the 850s retail for $2000.
I would point out that he is replacing my $900 Onkyo, a very competent, respectable receiver which has served me well, with a $1200 preamplifier and power amplifier combo, which will enable me to utilize my Outlaw ICBM as an active crossover for all my speakers.
I would point out he is providing me with a computer programmed subwoofer equalizing system, which should give me considerably more control over the integration oif my sub with the rest of the system.
I would point out that each of the rest of the components he is providing me with are higher priced than the ones they are replacing.
Yes, we all know that higher prices do NOT necessarily equate with higher quality. And the above changes do not NECESSARILY mean an Improvement in the sound quality of my system. That is purely subjective conclusion, which I alone can make.
However, on value alone, he IS providing me with a step up. From my Webster's:
Upgrade - to raise in importance, value, esteem, etc.
Nothing there about quality. Probably because quality, in most, but not all, cases, is subjective.
To return to the automobile analogy, but with ones the value of which I have at least a vague understanding, it's more like going from a Honda Accord to a Toyota Avalon. Better? that's a matter of subjective opinion and can only be found in the eye of the beholder.
So, as to the Ferrari being given to the Lotus owner, may we assume you find no fault with that IF the Lotus owner deserves the gift?
Bridge i think you said it very well but i think you said the same thing bigwill said just in a toned down way.
Just my 2 pennies
That is very cool, Jack. I'm happy that good stuff is happening for you. Seriously.
bigjohn, perhaps the rotten aura you detect is the smell of my boy's dirty diaper that got changed here in my classroom at lunch. The students are now coming in and pondering aloud what Mr. Williams might possibly have had for lunch.
i changed a real good one of those myself last night. even had my 7 year old running for fresh air. jackson has been exclusively booby juice for his first 6 months, and now we are starting to incorporate real food. needless to say, his stomach does not agree with it.
and he has taken to chewing on the edge of the coffee table now that his teeth are coming in. so, i have been rotating it around every few days to ensure it gets an equal amount of bite marks on all 4 sides. then, in 15 years, i can point at the table and say, "see, look what you did"..
bigjohn
I know you are Mark, and I thank you for that. I just don't think we should let his motives, whatever they are, detract from the generously kind act of giving. I'm perfectly willing to admit that my view as the recipient of that generosity could be considered slightly tainted.
I, of course, don't believe he had any other motive than doing something nice for someone who he, and his panel of two others who made the selection, felt was deserving. If you were as aware of Mark's unheralded charitable contributions as I, you might feel the same, and I might not look so naive.
If he intended to make publicity "hay" from this, he's done a really lousy job of it. And if you think his goal was to "convert" a renowned internet forum expert on audio, I believe you have a grossly overinflated opinion of my importance. And while it is gratifying to think that YOU think I'm universally loved and respected at all forums, there are some on this forum alone who would laugh at you (may their keyboards mysteriously break
), and a great number elsewhere who would join them.
You have now reminded me WHY I'm happy to have missed fatherhood. YUCK!
In reply to:
there are some on this forum alone who would laugh at you
Who?
All kidding aside, enjoy the new gear. I have a good feeling that you will enjoy it.
Nuts! Guess my keyboard curse didn't work!
Your kung fu not strong....................................my kung fu strong....................protect keyboard from not so strong kung fu...........................
bigjohn,
You are describing the effect of genes/heredity. If the little guy is already chewing on the coffee table, the trip to abusing the ports and touching the cones of fine speakers is not a very long one. God help the audiophiles of America.
My grown up and lady-like daughters also exhibited a talent for filling diapers with an impressive array of textures, colors and toxic aromas when they were very young. I never understood the equation that provided that result. Debbie and I certainly never fed the girls anything that smelled that bad.
Of course I may also be proving the gene/heredity thing myself. Even having switched to the industrial strength version of Depends with the special "Daisy Fresh Aura", I have been challenging the claims of containment and freshness and I also do not remember eating anything that smelled that bad. It's a mystery.
Well I was going to ramble on with "how sad it is that Jack has to explain himself when all he should have to do is sit back and enjoy this well deserved upgrade".
But I won't, I'll just say "is that a gun in your pocket or are you just glad to see me"?
At least now we are back on topic.
In reply to:
Of course I may also be proving the gene/heredity thing myself. Even having switched to the industrial strength version of Depends with the special "Daisy Fresh Aura", I have been challenging the claims of containment and freshness and I also do not remember eating anything that smelled that bad. It's a mystery.
Oh.
My.
God.
Doesn't anyone else have any gun stories? Please?
Jack,
Since Axiom hasnt any competition for the seperates you will soon receive i hope you will hold nothing back in evaluating those. i was just checking them out the other day and they seem impressive.
Jake
In reply to:
____________________________________________________________
Of course I may also be proving the gene/heredity thing myself. Even having switched to the industrial strength version of Depends with the special "Daisy Fresh Aura", I have been challenging the claims of containment and freshness and I also do not remember eating anything that smelled that bad. It's a mystery.
____________________________________________________________
Ray, whenever you visit tharkuns home you'll now be properly equipped to handle the dreaded dual ep-600 *brown note*.
Mike, like Jack just said, I'll be "gald" to share with Dennis!!!
I LOVE those brown notes!
<remainder of post deleted to avoid setting the argument off again
>
>>You are describing the effect of genes/heredity. If the little guy is already chewing on the coffee table, the trip to abusing the ports and touching the cones of fine speakers is not a very long one. God help the audiophiles of America.
You know, I'm really enjoying everyone's posts today. Not only have the dogs stopped by several times to see what the fuss was, my neighbor even called to find out what was so funny. It's a beautiful spring day up here so all the windows were open.
"Even having switched to the industrial strength version of Depends "
Can We PULEEEEEZZZZZE Go back to talking about Guns?
(I really don't like guns, but it has got to be better than THIS!)
Whew.
OK, here's a different subject. Remember the movie "Diva" (about 20-25 years ago)... there was a short but haunting opera performance that was played repeatedly throughout the movie. What was the piece and where can I find a good recording of the whole work ?
I even selected a non-firearm-related avatar. I can change back any time you want
Ah yes, I remember those days all too well. I have some advice for the unitiated. If anyone has little tykes running around the house or apartment, I have knowledge of the perfect audio setup. First, buy the cheapest 2 channel stereo receiver you can buy, probably something like KLH or Aiwa. Next, mate them with circa 1979 Technics tower speakers, much like the ones I have in storage in my basement. That way if something is wiped on them or little fingers make a new whole you won't really care. Who needs tweeters anyway? Don't worry about surround or rear speakers, the little loved one will just tear them off the wall or tip them over. Forget about a subwoofer, the interconnects are a temptation that small ones just won't be able to resist.
I vaguely remember that movie, but I think we just went to see it because we thought it would have a high (oh, how to put this, now that I don't want to offend Jack's neice, in case she is reading?) jiggly factor?
No, actually, now that I am thinking of it,it was much better than that.
There was a great scene with someone making a sandwich with a very large knife, right?
And Bruce,
I've got no problem with the diapers on the little ones.
It's diapers on the big boys that makes me a bit queezy!
;-)
TjB
And Bridgman. Put the guns back. That dog is even scarier.
>>I don't want to offend Jack's neice, in case she is reading?)
Beth works with engineers in Texas. It's unlikely you will shock her.
>>No, actually, now that I am thinking of it,it was much better than that.
I think that's the one. It has a great car chase (well, moped chase actually), some lovely music, and a very unusual cast of characters. I thought it was one of the best movies I had seen in a long time -- then again, I think I had been dragged out to see "The Ninth Configuration" the night before
>>And Bridgman. Put the guns back. That dog is even scarier.
You're right. It's even creeping me out...
Yeah, it looked like a Wookie after spending a weekend with Nick Nolte!
Gun Story.
I was in my early 20s and working for a civil engineering company in Hamilton Ontario. We were building the 403 highway west from Hamilton up the escarpment to Ancaster.
We worked out of a very large "field office" near the golf course at the start of the job. It was on a residential street with houses on the opposite side of the road.
This "office" was made out of three prefabed buildings joined end to end. The first was an office, the second was for storage and contained an oil burning stove, the third was a lunchroom. As the story goes on make sure you remember the stove.
My boss was from Yugoslavia and was a total gun nut. One day he bought a hand gun to work and set up a target in the lunchroom. He then went into the front ofice and from a distance of about 35 feet dropped 5 or six shots right into the center of the target.
He then asked me if I had ever fired a gun, I said "no". Encouraged by my experience he loaded the gun and handed it to me. Squeeze the trigger slowly was all he said.
First two shots lodged in the back wall and the third shot blew the stack off the stove. Shots 4, 5 and 6 never happened.
Every time I think of this I start humming Eric Clapton's" I Shot The Sheriff", substituting "Stove" for "Sheriff".
Remind me not to rely on you in a firefight, will ya?
When I was In Nam, being a soundman in a motion picture crew and having a big ol' Nagra tape recorder slung over my shoulder, I was NOT issued an M-16 rifle. OH NO! I carried a Colt .45 on my hip (you can see it holstered below). Much as I liked it, every time I looked at it, all I could think was "If the enemy ever gets close enough that this thing is effective, I'm gonna be in DEEP TROUBLE!
Unless you are fighting stoves. lol
Ford,
You don't realize how lucky you were having taken that stove out with the single shot. If you simply wound a stove, they get really annoyed and will turn and charge. Many hapless stove hunters have lost their lives because they didn't understand that!!
Hate to say it guys but Jack's pic of a gun beat the hell out of all of you. Take a look at the Cannon behind him in the pic.
In reply to:
Take a look at the Cannon behind him in the pic.
105mm Howitzer.
John, the aria is Ebben? Ne andro lontana from Alfredo Catalani's opera La Wally. There's a couple of recordings of the complete opera available on CD, but beyond that one aria you might be disappointed in much of the remaining two hours. Your Toronto library has the CD of the Diva soundtrack and also
several CDs containing Ebben?, by far the most popular part of the opera. Besides the soundtrack, the #1 soprano CD set, with Renata Tebaldi singing it, looks like something worth taking a listen to.
>>105mm Howitzer.
Well, sure, but Mark and I bought our guns with our own money (lame excuse, huh ?)
>>John, the aria is Ebben? Ne andro lontana from Alfredo Catalani's opera La Wally.
Thanks, John !
It wouldn't be the first time I bought an album only to find that the only good track on it was the one I heard on the radio
Being one of those who understood the dangers of stove hunting, I spent most of my adult life working on the premise that the only way to effectively take out a stove safely was to do it from about two thousand miles away, and to sneak up on it quickly and quietly with little or no warning-they get mad alright, but even their most aggressive charge runs out of steam over two K miles!
Hunting stoves from the decks of an aircraft carrier in the mid to late sixties showed the futility of close-in stove hostilities, there had to be a better way.
Now there is!!
Hi guys ... It has been a while. Since I was the guy who had nominated Jack to win the Home Theater makeover, perhaps a timeline will help.
http://forum.av123.com/showthread/.php?s=&threadid=4106&highlight=makeover
That was the original thread post from MLS (on July, 18, 2004) regarding this makeover. I had "met" Jack on the Hsu forum around the end of January when (Wid, if you are reading this, you remember) several Hsu forum members were bashing me for attempting a blind subwoofer shootout between SVS and Hsu ... Jack pretty much stepped in and told the guys he was embarassed at their treatment of a "guest" ... and we became friends.
Over the next few months, during some of the reviews I muddled through, Jack and I harassed each other, and still do. I also learned a lot about his life ... the military service, how he was taking care of his mom, and his personal situation.
At the time the makeover was suggested, I thought of Jack, because it would include (besides speakers) electronics, DVD player ... etc... AND because, of all the people I had seen posting, I could not think of a better person to nominate.
I sent the e-mail to MLS on the 18th, with a "mini-biography" of Jack - with no mention of Jack's current equipment, just stuff about the MAN.
I did think it would be cool if Jack had both Rocket and Axiom speakers, as I do here.
Anyway, MLS e-mailed me, within a couple of days of my e-mail to him (about the 20th of July), a quick note that Jack would indeed be getting a makeover, and asked that I get him a list of Jack's current gear.
BTW - I believe I am the only guy who owns Axioms, Rockets, AND Ascends. And if Ian wanted to do a home theater makeover, I would likely nominate .... another Cleveland area native I have gotten to know who LOVES home theater, and is the Dad to a truly special needs little girl ... HE works literally 70 hours per week to do what needs done for her...
Ok ... rant over.
Well I have to nominate you for being one of the nicest people I have had the please to "know" on a bulletin board.
It's so nice to know that there are people who can "walk the talk".
Thanks Ford ... much appreciated. On a funny note, Jack had the line of the weekend when Ray, He, Mark and I were setting up the system. We were talking about some of the guys who ... well... are pretty unfriendly towards me. Jack, in reference to those "gentlemen", said: "Craig, face it, you are an A$$HOLE magnet" ...
I think Ray spit beer through his nose.
well for what it's worth I just sprayed coffee all over my screen.
bastard
Heh heh ... My wife called me that today, too ... One more, and It will be a hat trick ...
Hi Craig - thanks for stopping by and clarifying the scenario. The innocence of the gesture and the deserving nature of the man has been hard for some to believe because of the nature of the world we live in. It's nice to have the full details laid out so all can share in something special that happened to a respected friend.
>>I think Ray spit beer through his nose
>>well for what it's worth I just sprayed coffee all over my screen
This is what truly separates us from the lower forms of life. The ability to acknowledge humour via our noses. When was the last time you saw a dog spray beer through their nose after hearing something funny ?
And before anyone makes the obvious comment that "dogs don't drink beer", I should mention that my brother-in-law's Lhasa Apso turned out to have a serious beer problem that we didn't notice at first... now the rule is "no mugs on the floor when Truck Stop Trixie is around".
Before anyone worries about the health impact, I should point out that Trixie is pushing 19 and still going strong although she is slowing down a bit and sleeps a lot these days.
In reply to:
Remember the movie "Diva" (about 20-25 years ago)...
Are you thinking about
Aria?
If so,
here's the soundtrack.
And for all you cynics, I did NOT call in the cavalry. I didn't have any idea I'd open this thread today and find Craig and his "magnetic" personality.
Craig, I cannot tell you the JOY it gives me to hear that your lovely wife (Guys, she looks like Nicole Kidman, and I'm not "kiddin' man") has now taken to tagging him with that appellation. Ah life is sweet, and I LOVE this woman.
However, I have to admit that I've had second thoughts since dubbing him with that title. It has dawned on me that, as I've been drawn to the man, what does that make me? Take your fingers OFF THAT KEYBOARD, the answer is implicit in the question. No need to rub it in.
In reply to:
And if Ian wanted to do a home theater makeover, I would likely nominate .... another Cleveland area native I have gotten to know who LOVES home theater, and is the Dad to a truly special needs little girl ... HE works literally 70 hours per week to do what needs done for her...
I believe I just met this gentleman. A very nice guy. But watch out. He drives a Mercedes. Whatever you do, don't suggest Mark give him a car.
Hey, I was hoping I could get Ian to try to one up Mark and give me a system like Dennis'. OH, I gotta email Craig and bring him up to date on Dennis' system. He ain't gonna believe this one.
Jack - Yes, you have met him ... and yes, his Mercedes is pretty old ... he has a knack for buying and selling cars at wholesale, and picks up a few bucks.
I saw Dennis's system ... VERY cool stuff !
PM does not "look" liberal, BTW ...
Craig-
A thank you from me as well. I got a little hot headed at some comments and have since kept quite because I find it a little childish to move forward when people do not know the full story. All in all I think that most understand with only a few not believing the kindness of mls.
Anyway, I hope you and the family are doing well. I hope one day to have the fortune to meet up with you, Jack, Ray and MLS sometime in the near future.
Craig
Craig - Overall, this thread has been pretty ok .... I "lurk" around here quite a bit, and bumped into it and posted. I had not realized it was STARTED today ... a LOT of activity....
I got an e-mail from Jack about my "Peter does not look like a liberal" comment ... Jack asked what a liberal looks like ... Actually the question can be better asked "What DOES he look like, then?" ... Peter, I see you in a truckstop, eating steak, and talking about them damn commies" ... Of course, The flannel shirt look with the jeans AND the Goatee add to the trucker persona...
In reply to:
you put something in one end and loud percussive noises come out the other end
For the love of God! How many times do I have to ask??? Please leave my digestive tract out of this!
After reading this thread - my thoughts:
- Ajax is a nice guy
- It did have a sales effect, Ray bought a pair
- makeover, to me means you have a substandard setup, and this will be a big upgrade.
Sorry I was late to the party!
1. Thank you.
2. We do not know what Ray paid for his speakers. I cannot say that the amount he paid failed to offset the value of my gift, but then, you can't say it did. So no profit can be assumed.
3. According to my Webster's: Makeover - to change; renovate.
And just to avoid any misunderstanding: Renovate - 1. to make fresh or sound again, as though new; clean up, replace worn and broken parts in repair, etc. 2. to refresh; revive.
Nothing in any of that about "a substantial upgrade." I will admit that, because of the words misuse, it is not unusual for people to make the erroneous inference that it has something to do with upgrading, but that is NOT implicit in the word. It is about making something "like new," which by definition my "makeover' did.
It's kinda like the word audiophile, which according to my Webster's is "a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction. Regrettably, it has been bastardized to mean roughly "an EXPERT on high-fidelity sound reproduction," and is readily adopted by those who are far from being an expert.
So, while I am indeed, according to the dictionary, an audiophile, as are all of us here, I am loathe to use the word, particularly in reference to myself, whom I would hardly classify as an "expert" on sound-reproduction. I, in fact, find myself involuntarily wincing each time I hear spoken or see it written.
1. Jack is more than just a nice guy. And was deserving of this.
2. Ray was not a part of this, in regards to AV123. Jack invited him as a friend. period.
3. Jack handled that.
4. My OWN point ... Yesterday, after some more negative press was put on AVS about Axiom, I started a new thread about taking the Rocket RS-1000's floorstanders and RSC 200 center channel out of my system and putting Axiom's M22-ti and VP-150 into it. Unlike the home theater makeover thread, THIS WAS posted on AVS.
To date, precisely TWO members of the Axiom board have posted on the thread.
Within 24 hours of Jack's "confession", there were a LOT more than that.
Pretty sad, gentlemen ... an attempt to highlight Axiom goes ignored on its own forum.
In my own defence, I did look for your post on av123 earlier but didn't see it
Woo-hoo!!! I'm an audiophile now!!! I rule!!!
Very clever ... BUT ... It was posted here that the thread was on AVS...
(and yes, I got the humor behind your saying the "AV123" bit ..
)
Craig, I readily acknowledge your contributions here and on other boards. I admire your integrity and appreciate the way you present positive viewpoints on multiple manufacturers.
I don't post on AVS. I am not interested in crusading around the internet in defense of Axiom. If people like the speakers or this forum, good for them. If not, then as long as we treat each other with dignity and respect, I'm fine. I learn a lot here - about things unrelated to audio, and from people who sometimes don't even own Axioms.
My point is, I don't have the time or inclination to proselytize about speakers all over the place. I enjoy the relationships I've established in this forum, but feel no obligation to enter any skirmishes elsewhere.
I thank you sincerely for using your time and profile to highlight Axiom. I want them to be a successful company, as I have been well pleased by their products and services, and they employ a business model that I perceive as being consistent with my values.
However, I don't think chastising Axiom forum members for not participating at AVS appropriately respects the diverse reasons for our citizenship here. While I probably would enjoy indulging the same passions you do, I hope you will accept the notion that we are driven by different forces and fulfilled by different activities.
I do not consider myself or my behavior "sad".
Tom - A misunderstanding here. I was referring to the lack of participation HERE on the thread, not on AVS. I posted the info regarding AVS because, unlike the home theater makeover thread, which was posted ONLY on the AV123 forum, MY thoughts on Axiom's quality were posted on the most widely used and read forum (AVS).
The Axiom forum guys were quite involved in the Jack's confession, which was fine. But when presented with VERY positive info on Axiom, it was ignored (ie... The thread # 5719 and the thread on AVS) ... It just seems everyone here LIKES commenting on "bad" news, but ignores "Good" news. THAT was what I found to be sad.
BTW ... Tha M22-ti's and VP-150 are sounding REALLY good !
I would bet that a heck of a lot of us do not read AVS. If you had posted whatever you posted on AVS here, I imagine that it would have gotten more comments. But seriously, dude, you cannot take thread length as an indicator of forum attitude. Some threads get interest, some don't. Live with it.
i have pretty much stayed out of this thread. mainly cause i just dont like the general unpleasant tone that i have been reading on it.
but, for what its worth.
craig- i think it was pretty groovy of you to put jacks name 'in the hat' as it may be. regardless of whatever intentions you may, or may not have had, i think it was awful cool of you. IMO, i dont think you had ANY intentions, other than trying to do something kind for a deserving person.
jack- i hope you enjoy your new and 'improved'
system to the utmost of its ability. i hope your mom has to come tell you to turn it down daily!!
rocket owner guy- kudos to you. who would have EVER thought you could get soo much $hit, for trying to do a nice thing.
i LOVE my HT system, and i totally dig my axioms.. but, for real people, if someone knocked on my door with a $5000 new stereo system, do you actually think i would be stupid enough to turn them away? every single one of you would have done the exact same thing jack did.. open the door, and let them in!!
dont even act like you wouldnt.. and dont be hating on him cause he did!
EDIT- i do not read the AV123 forum. no time..
bigjohn
I find it sad that Tom and Ken even had to say what they just did.
Properly placed, but sad.
>>and yes, I got the humor behind your saying the "AV123" bit .. )
D'oh !!
Sorry, wasn't humour, just me being a doofus. I really wasn't paying attention and DID look on the wrong board.
Understood gents. Please accept my apologies. I will "live with it" and go back to lurking status.
Craig
I'm confused.
I havent seen the thread here your talking about.
I did read the thread over at AVS and REALLY liked the way you handled it. I would have posted in that thread, except you seemed to have said everything I would have said, only better. Also GD had sent me a couple of nasty name calling PMs, so I figured it would have just given him ammo for the Axiom shill thing he was talking about.
I enjoy your posts here and look forward to hearing what you have to say about your (temporary) switchout with the M22s/VP150 h/t thing.
Did I miss that here somewhere?
bray ... This is a great forum, with a lot of guys who want to have fun. Rather than allow things to get bogged down, assuming anyone wants to "go after" my comments on AVS, I will handle it there. It seems pretty well under control on the AVS thread. It is likely best to leave things as they are. Thanks for the thoughts, too !
craig, we all deserve better than you going back to "lurking status".
well at least I do, not sure about Jack
.
I'm sorry I misunderstood your intent, Craig. I hope you will consider continuing to post, because I always feel like I learn from your experiences. I actually considered responding to your original post about your recent change and M22 audition, but did not feel like I had anything to add since I own neither those nor the Rockets.
Craig - "lurking status" is just north of unacceptable. We are always enriched with your visits, insights and contributions. Certainly your humor brightens the days spent here as well.
You are always welcome and, as Tom Bodette says, "We'll leave the light on".
Now, can I interest you in an MX-700???
Ray, While I appreciate the ... uhhhhhh... kind words... NOONE has ever used "enriched" when dealing with me, other than the IRS ...
>>I actually considered responding to your original post about your recent change and M22 audition, but did not feel like I had anything to add
I think a lot of us felt the same way. I really did think you were posting on the AV123 forum not AVS and have to admit I was thinking "hmm, that's gonna start another pi**ing contest, wonder what time the show starts, do I have any popcorn ?"
Well... As good as both company's products really are, I don't think there would be any hard feelings.
I DO get annoyed when anonymous posters on independent fora like AVS start making comments like "Shrill", "Metallic", and "sounding like they are in a trash can" about Axiom.
Someday, I will have one of these guys in a blind test ...
I just finished reading the thread and I have only one comment :
Ajax, for a Rocket shill you sure have been standing up for Axioms a lot
There was always something odd with GD's posts. He would start out as very reasonable and (dare I say) insightful... but if the discussion didn't go just right then things would escalate and get out of hand. Don't know exactly the right words, but everything would get exaggerated and overblown, including interpretation of peoples comments and intentions.
The worst part is that there probably WAS something wrong with his VP150 and we'll never know what happened ;(
In reply to:
Ajax, for a Rocket shill you sure have been standing up for Axioms a lot
Always have; always will!
I too have stayed away from this thread.....but here are some ramblings:
a) Jack is a very nice guy, based on his posts and PM's we have exchanged. I think it wonderful that he received first the nomination, and then the prize!
b) Ray and Craig are also very fine gentlemen, based on the accounts in this thread.
c) It should not be taken for granted that everyone visits all forums - simply does not happen. I for one do not have the time to crusie the 'net on forums. If you do, wonderful, but understand Craig that others do not.
d) As hard as I try, I also fall into the mindset of "makeover" being an upgrade. I have seen this at the local lumber store -submit a picture of your kitchen/bathroom, get a free makeover!!! The criteria is usually a room VERY lacking. In this case, the system being "madeover" was a good system. I blame Home Depot!!! LOL
e) If you think there is no marketing angle, great. I can't view it as such. Look at the discussion it spawned about the company, keeping the name SQUARELY in all of the people reading/posting/lurking on this and other boards. As it was an Axiom system that was replaced, the image factor must also be accounted for.
f) Sales promotion - maybe we will never know, but Ray knows if he decided to look elsewhere based on Jack's experience. Maybe Ray was enticed, maybe not - it does not matter. But would he have simply picked up smaller Axioms for his new palace? Only he can say for sure....
My take is that this may have been a kind act to a good man. He opened himself up, and would think he expected to be challenged. How many of us own products other than Axiom? I for one own openly claim to have speakers that I believe far outperform my Axioms. But we tend to get bent out of shape when someone challenges our beloved Axioms.
Kudos for being brave Jack
Ah, you know what?
This has just gotten completly out of hand. Anyone else agree?
Nobody wants Craig to leave, right?
Don't be ridiculous.
Nobody REALLY thinks that it was a Bad Thing for Jack to get a set of speakers that WE would ALL Be Happy to welcome into our homes, Right?
Nobody Really wants to use Ray's purchase of Rockets as proof that Mark had a hidden agenda on his mind, Right?
Nobody Really thinks that this nice fellow from Rocket is sitting in his Dark Lair right now, rubbing his hands together, chuckling to himself; "Aha! Now I've got them! Those silly little Axiomites will be streaming over to the Dark Side Now!"
Geeezzz! C'Mon Here People!
A Couple of nice people (Craig & then Mark)did something nice for a Really Nice Fellow.
And now we find ourselves on what, page 7 or 8 of a malestrom of nice folks hollering at each other about it?
Bridgeman, Can you Please pull out one of those guns and put this one down (I know you tried already, but your wonderful hijack got hijacked right back! Is that even legal?) before too many are too mad at each other.
Whew.
TjB
Holy Crap.
7 or 8 more posts since I started my reply.
Gotta go to the dinner table.
Can't even read them right now.
Geeezzz.
TjB
>>But we tend to get bent out of shape when someone challenges our beloved Axioms.
Very true. We should try hard not to do that, however.
One thing that struck me when reading the AVS thread was the VP150 discussion -- I remember that a number of people here have replaced their VP150s with different centers and been happier with the results, but I believe in every case the new center was more expensive. Some people have gone with another bookshelf or tower speaker as a center and been happier than with VP150. Again, they are probably right and they probably do have better sound in their environments.
Horizontal center channels are not designed horizontally because that is the optimal acoustic setup, they are designed horizontally to fit on top of a TV and not look stupid. Personally I would like to try a Bigfoot (that big-ass Rocket center which is essentially an M60 on its side) with the M60s once I move into the new house, and I bet I would find it quite an improvement. It also costs twice as much as anything Axiom offers, so this is not a criticism of the VP series in any way (other than my firm belief that Axiom should also offer an M60-based VP250
). I'm really happy with the VP100 and would recommend it to anyone.
Same deal with the rest of the Axiom lineup -- of course you can get better speakers, but they also tend to be more expensive. In Jack's case the new system is probably worth twice as much as his current system (probably more if you include the electronics), and I would be very surprised if it didn't sound better. I can live with calling that a makeover, but then again I don't watch a lot of TV
Anyways, I forget what I was ranting about so I guess I'm done...
A couple of great logical, sensible posts, Seabear and Mike.
With all due respect for those who only want this thread to quietly disappear, I would like to comment on Mike's
In reply to:
If you think there is no marketing angle, great. I can't view it as such. Look at the discussion it spawned about the company, keeping the name SQUARELY in all of the people reading/posting/lurking on this and other boards.
Two points to make. One, This has been discussed on av123 forum, of course; here in this thread; and it came up in an unrelated thread about Rockets and av123 on AVS, but was hardly the focus of that thread. That's three threads on three different forums. And only on this forum and av123's forum was the thread ABOUT the makeover. To my knowledge it has NOT come up, in any incarnation on the Home Theater Spot, the Home Theater Forum, the Secrets of Home Theater forum, Audioholics forum, AudioCircle forum, or any other forum. In all these places there are many more threads spawning discussion where the company's name is already SQUARELY in front of all the people reading/posting/lurking there.
Two, the marketing issue seems to focus on intent. Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that Mark and av123 INTENDED to use their gift for marketing purposes. I want to state that
I DON'T BELIEVE, FOR A MINUTE, THAT THE INTENT OF MARK, OR AV123, WAS TO MARKET THEIR PRODUCTS, but let's pretend, just for a moment, that it was.
SO WHAT?
I was watching ABC's Home Makeover Sunday night, The Sears name was prominent all the way through the show, including a commercial, disguised as a "thank you" for letting Sears be a part of the makeover, and making sure that Sears contribution was well documented. It is far more likely that Sears' intent was to exploit the marketing aspect of their donation than it was Mark's and av123's intent to do the same. Nobody seems to be ragging on Sears for their intended marketing coup. And for good reason. Regardless of their intent, the fact remains that
SEARS DID A VERY NICE THING BY DONATING ALL THAT NICE STUFF TO THE MAKEOVER. It seems ridiculous, to me, that we should negate Sears generosity, because they want to score points for that generosity.
So, even if Mark and av123 had marketing in mind, and again I point out that
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT THEY INTENDED ANY MARKETING, that should not, in any way, detract from the kindness of the act. After all, what the did was no less kind and generous than what Sears did.
I just don't get it
I don't think there are actually many people saying that Mark's motivation was primarily marketing... we were just reacting strongly to statements that seemed to say "there was no marketing benefit because blah blah blah".
I fully believe Mark's reasons were all the best here, but I would also argue that there was a marketing benefit to offering you the system. That does not devalue the gesture at all IMO... guess I'm just saying "don't say there was no benefit, that's just too hard a sell".
Again, I think this was just a situation that needed very careful wording (Jack, we thought we were gonna LOSE you !!) and we weren't quite careful enough...
I've decided to capitalize on the wildfire-like spread of Jack-is-a-good-guy Fever™ by producing some pseudo-religious iconic portraits. The first batch is now complete and features Jack with a contemplative expression that suggests forgiveness and compassion. His arms are extended sideways and a golden glowing aura surrounds his head. The portraits are acrylic on yak-gut membrane stretched between platinum rods.
PM me if interested.
Jack's a good guy,
independent of the fact that he won a home theater makeover. But we knew that, right?
That's the second best laugh I've had all day.
Bigjohn's was the first. My boss was over in the next cube having a meeting with some uber-bigwig, and I almost spit out my coffee from laughing too hard.
I assume THIS creation of yours will be one of the iconic portraits.
PM ... How did you get those two to look 20 years younger than they really are ?
PhotoShop can work miracles.
I continue to be amazed at what an exceptionally good-looking hunk of man meat I really am!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ray... You need to market that magic mirror of yours...
Unfortunatley, it is rarely the man's opinion that counts in that area.
In reply to:
continue to be amazed at what an exceptionally good-looking hunk of man meat I really am!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whatever happened to that picture of Ray The Tick? I liked that one the best.
In reply to:
Whatever happened to that picture of Ray The Tick? I liked that one the best.
That was mine... and I believe I deleted it, never to be seen again.
Sorry Tom.
Bren R.