Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup?

Posted by: bhull

Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup? - 03/12/07 01:25 PM

I THOUGHT I was done with selecting my components. Here is what I have chosen so far...

M80/VP150/QS8 combo for Left, Right, Center and rears
HSU VTF-3MK3 for sub

Now I have been trying to select something to drive them. I have narrowed it down to the

Emotiva LMC-1/LPA-1 combo or
Outlaw 1070

Pros and cons, the Emo is rated at 125W into 8 ohms(225 at 4) all channels driven. The Outlaw is half the power rating at 65w into 8 ohms (no 4 ohm rating on web site), but it has a lip snyc delay the Emo lacks. So far I have only had one lip sync issue watching DirectTV, and it was solved by unplugging the receiver and restarting it. I had chosen the Outlaw at first and kept seeing Emotiva mentioned by many people. I checked it out and my jaw dropped when I saw the specs for the price. But I have to admit, there is a flag up with me right now, the Emo combo almost sounds too good to be true.

Right now I am leaning on the Emo since I will be driving the 4ohm M80s. I had been a somewhat concerned that the Outlaw would be a little on the lean side for power. I do not have the money for the 1070/monoblock combo. I do enjoy high listening levels in a vaulted ceiling room measuring approximately 16x20 and opens into the kitchen and hallway

Thanks for any advice.
Posted by: ravi_singh

Re: Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup? - 03/12/07 02:15 PM

I haven't heard either... however, I have heard from others that the Emotiva is an extremely impressive product.

They are also offering a 5 year warranty, and a %40 discount on next generation surround processors.

The Outlaw is a good unit, but will have slightly less power. If you plan on listening at really loud levels, the Emotiva will more likely suit your needs.

I also find the Emotiva is prettier to look at.

If I had to pick, I'd buy the Emotiva. I am in fact looking to purchase from them as soon as I move.
Posted by: PeterChenoweth

Re: Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup? - 03/12/07 02:48 PM

I really like my LPA-1. I have no complaints and it's doing exactly what I expect of a good amplifier to do.

But do check out the forums over on av123.com regarding the LMC. From what I've read, it's a very good and solid receiver sound-quality wise, but it has had some 'teething' issues with some functionality.

There are threads regarding problems with the LMC switching surround modes when it shouldn't be, or surround sound modes not really working as they are supposed to. There was also talk about crossover settings not really working as people had expected in certain sitautions. I won't say anything more, simply because I can't remember the details off the top of my head. Essentially, the LMC is great but not perfect. I don't know if all of the issues have been worked out, but I have read a few threads over there indicating that newer units don't have some of the quirks of the older ones. YMMV.

That said, if I came home and found that my Pioneer AVR had died, I probably wouldn't hesitate in ordering a LMC to replace it.
Posted by: bhull

Re: Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup? - 03/12/07 05:37 PM

I think I found my answer. I have posted this in the AVS forums also, here is the cut and paste of what I wrote over there.

Ok, I was reading the thread over at Audioholics that was started on their review of the LMC/LPA combo. Someone posted the link to the LPA owners manual.

The power rating on the Emo website here states the following

Rated Power Output: Channels 1-5 (All Channels Driven at 0.04%THD, 120vAC/ 60HZ supply) 8 ohm: 125 watts / 4 ohm: 225 watts

However, buckeyefan 1 posted a link to the owners manual on the AH thread here

If you scroll down this PDF document, you will find the following on page 24.

Rated Power Output: (All Channels Driven @ 1Khz 120VAC/ 60HZ supply, THD noted)
Channels 1-5 125 Watts into 8 Ohms (0.04%THD)
225 Watts into 4 Ohms (0.04%THD)
Channels 6-7 50 Watts into 8 Ohms (0.05%THD)
95 Watts into 4 Ohms (0.05%THD)


Notice here, they state this was all channels driven @1Khz where as the Outlaw is 65W@ 8ohms 20hz-20Khz. Now, I dont want to start a debate on the all channels driven test, but this gives me a hint on how they can make this combo for under $1k, I knew there had to be something. I would still like to see a true all channels driven test for this amp. If it doesn't fall on its face at the other parts of the freq spectrum, then we truely have a deal here.

I feel the information presented on the Emotiva website regarding this product is slightly misleading....I am not saying they lied, they never stated full frequency sweep, however they definately omitted it.

I am also not knocking this amp, I am just trying to get the hard information on what these different amps are capable of so I can make an informed decision.
Posted by: ravi_singh

Re: Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup? - 03/12/07 07:32 PM

you could also look into some HK receivers, they are very nice, very powerful. Denon as well, and Onkyo.
Posted by: richeydog

Re: Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup? - 03/13/07 01:13 PM

I asked Lonnie Vaughn at Emotiva about the 1khz power ratings and this is what he had to say:

Quote:

The true power spec on the LPA-1 is 125 x 5 into 8 ohms and 65 x 2 into 8 ohms all channels driven with a broad band frequency response of 10-50Khz. From 20 to 20 the frequency response and power output is for all practical purposes completely flat and the amp will deliver the rated power across the band. Now the actual frequency response of the unit is from 10-50Khz @ -1db, thus the power spec can be derived from that as well, but this would just tend to confuse most people. To make the testing go faster in production, the Audio Precisions are set up to run a frequency sweep to very the power response is flat and then it just does a 1K measurement.




Any comments from the electronic gurus on this board are more than welcome.
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup? - 03/13/07 02:21 PM

Lonnie is one guy that I would trust, not some AVS member.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup? - 03/13/07 09:42 PM

Mike, if the statement in the quote is true that the power output "for all practical purposes"(whatever that means)is "completely flat" from 20-20KHz, then they should have done the testing under the FTC regs for the full range and simply published it as a 20-20KHz rating(as is typically now done, for all but the lowest-cost units), rather than only at 1KHz, which is the "official" rating. The present "issue" about the power could have then easily been avoided.

Personally, the 1KHz rating in that quality of a unit doesn't create a significant issue, since the output at 20Hz typically wouldn't be more than about 5-10% lower than at 1KHz, which is a trivial difference.
Posted by: dllewel

Re: Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup? - 03/13/07 09:52 PM

Agreed John.

Publishing the official rating from 20-20kHz would have been best to eliminate ANY concerns.
Posted by: richeydog

Re: Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup? - 03/13/07 11:14 PM

This is my feeling exactly, Dave. If the amp only delivers 100 to 115 watts(all channels driven), I would be cool with that.

Surely a few watts isn't going to make a difference...but I would still like to know the 20hz to 20khz rating so I can sleep peacefully at night...
Posted by: bhull

Re: Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup? - 03/13/07 11:47 PM

This Lonnie quote has been circulating around the various forums. Here is my response over at AVS here

Quote:

This was posted by a member over on av123 who apparently got this response from Lonnie at Emotiva about the power specs on the LPA-1:

From 20 to 20 the frequency response and power output is for all practical purposes completely flat and the amp will deliver the rated power across the band.





Thanks for digging that up and posting it here. I have been very curious about this amplifier.

Emotiva saying "for all practical purposes" sure leaves the question wide open to interpretation. He says it will deliver the rated power across the band, but neglects to say this as all channels driven.


Quote:

Now the actual frequency response of the unit is from 10-50Khz @ -1db, thus the power spec can be derived from that as well, but this would just tend to confuse most people. To make the testing go faster in production, the Audio Precisions are set up to run a frequency sweep to very the power response is flat and then it just does a 1K measurement






Yeah this kind of confuses me too. He says they test the entire freq range to verify a flat response, but then says they go back and measure at 1K to make production faster? How is this making anything faster? You already did a full sweep.

If what they want you to believe about this amp is true, it would be total slam dunk over the Outlaw 1070 I have been considering. However, neglecting to state a frequency range for all channels driven power output on the website, along with stating all channels driven power ratings @1Khz only on the last page of the owners manual, and capping it off with Lonnie from Emotiva's very vague and confusing statements has me more suspicious than ever of what this company is claiming about the power output of the LPA-1. Let us also not forget that Audioholics recently had a big gushing review of this amp with NO bench testing whatsoever. Supposedly the reviewer didn't have testing equipment to work with. Why not send the amp into wherever Audioholics does their benchmarking, bench it, and THEN finish and publish the review? To their credit, when this was brought up on the forums, there was a response from Gene at Audioholics saying he would be benching this amp soon. I am very much looking forward to seeing these numbers.

I want to like this amp, the idea of breaking into separates for uner $1k is very appealing to me, the combo would look badass in my HT, there has been a lot of good things said about it by many happy owners...but right now I just don't know what to think about it.

Posted by: bhull

Re: Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup? - 03/14/07 12:00 AM

Quote:

Mike, if the statement in the quote is true that the power output "for all practical purposes"(whatever that means)is "completely flat" from 20-20KHz, then they should have done the testing under the FTC regs for the full range and simply published it as a 20-20KHz rating




Haha, I hadn't even thought of that.

Quote:

Personally, the 1KHz rating in that quality of a unit doesn't create a significant issue, since the output at 20Hz typically wouldn't be more than about 5-10% lower than at 1KHz, which is a trivial difference.




Considering what you said there, it might have tipped me back into the Emotiva side of the fence.

I will be ready to order an amp within the next 30-60 days, that should be enough time for Audioholics to bench this unit...that will the the ultimate deciding factor between this and the Outlaw 1070.
Posted by: bhull

Re: Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup? - 03/14/07 09:31 AM

So for you M80 owners and people in the know...

Given a choice between the Outlaw 1070 or the Emo combo, what would your choice be? Is there a SQ difference? I would rather have the lower power nicer sounding amp than a higher power lower SQ amp. Where would my $1000 best serve me?
Posted by: bhull

Re: Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup? - 03/14/07 10:08 AM

Quote:

So for you M80 owners and people in the know...

Given a choice between the Outlaw 1070 or the Emo combo, what would your choice be? Is there a SQ difference? I would rather have the lower power nicer sounding amp than a higher power lower SQ amp. Where would my $1000 best serve me?




I have been further educating myself on the ACD test and how they relate to real world loads. According to what I have learned, would I be better off with the Emo due to the fact that theoretically, it should have much higher headroom, which should make it better for HT use?
Posted by: bugbitten

Re: Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup? - 03/14/07 10:20 AM

I believe that you are talking yourself into the Emos.

Just want you to know how little power it takes to run the 80s. My amp's meters show watts used. Normally only 0s on the meter. Sometimes as high as 8 or 9. This at -20 on my Denon 3805 dial and very loud. Master and commander makes it jump to 18-20 peaks. A lot of users remain very satisfied with receivers only.

That said, I believe that my system sounds better with the separate amp than with the Denon alone. It may all be between my ears. YMMV!
Posted by: bugbitten

Re: Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup? - 03/14/07 10:32 AM

I do believe that the LMC-1 has issues.

Read Gonk at AV123 forum

You might be better served with Denon 1907, Denon 887 with HDMI or similiar and the Emo amp at your price range.
Posted by: bhull

Re: Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup? - 03/14/07 11:08 AM

I got a reply from Lonnie at Emotiva today regarding their ACD power rating:



First off I would like to say thank you for your interest in Emotiva.



The broadband (20-20Khz) power rating for the LPA-1 is 175 watts RMS into 6 ohms for channels 1-5 and 73 watts RMS into 6 ohms for channels 6+7. Also, the Broadband power rating into 4 ohms is 225 watts RMS for channels 1-5 and 95 watts RMS for 6+7. These power ratings are for rated THD levels with all channels loaded and driven simultaneous. Now the maximum THD that can be derived from the amplifier >1% if it is pushed well into clipping.



I hope this helps and has answered your questions. If you have additional questions, please feel free to contact me.



Best regards,



Lonnie Vaughn



Emotiva Support





106 Mission Court

Suite 101

Franklin TN 37067




Having read this, and I have no reasons not to believe him, especially considering the overwhelming good reviews for their products (I have yet to see a single person complain about Emotiva) it would seem at the $1000 price point, the Emo it a total slam dunk killer (LMC glitches aside). Unless I see some damning information in the future, it looks like I will be pulling the trigger on Emo for my HT.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup? - 03/14/07 10:31 PM

BH, since you asked "Where would my $1,000 best serve me", I'll respond that my view is that you'd be best-served by using perhaps half of it for a receiver whose features meet your needs and using the rest of the money for CDs, DVDs etc. which will make a real difference. Don't be overly concerned about maximum power that you'll likely never use. Don't be concerned at all about "SQ"; as properly controlled blind listening tests have indicated, if the frequency response is flat from 20-20KHZ and the noise and distortion levels are inaudibly low(common these days in even quite modestly-priced equipment), the amplification is audibly transparent and no differences are discernible.
Posted by: richeydog

Re: Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup? - 03/15/07 01:28 AM

Quote:

I do believe that the LMC-1 has issues.

Read Gonk at AV123 forum




An interesting development has occured after you posted that link. If you continue reading that thread, Dan Laufman has made a statement concerning the LMC-1. He has said all remaining issues have been resolved...and will be making an announcement tomorrow explaining all the details

We will see...
Posted by: bhull

Re: Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup? - 03/15/07 02:06 PM

Quote:

BH, since you asked "Where would my $1,000 best serve me", I'll respond that my view is that you'd be best-served by using perhaps half of it for a receiver whose features meet your needs and using the rest of the money for CDs, DVDs etc. which will make a real difference. Don't be overly concerned about maximum power that you'll likely never use. Don't be concerned at all about "SQ"; as properly controlled blind listening tests have indicated, if the frequency response is flat from 20-20KHZ and the noise and distortion levels are inaudibly low(common these days in even quite modestly-priced equipment), the amplification is audibly transparent and no differences are discernible.




Its just that I like to have the occasional party and never wanted to worry about having enough power for it...also the fact these are going to be 4 ohm speakers made me want to purchase something that was built with real "Beefy" components. Since you mentioned spending $500, what would you get at that price point? Looking around I probably would go with a Denon.

As for CDs and DVDs, no worries there. A date with the wife most of the time consists of a nice dinner and going to a media store near here and choosing a DVD or two. We have been doing this for quite some time and have a nice little collection. I would say I have at least 10 DVDs we have never eve watched LOL.
Posted by: bhull

Re: Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup? - 03/15/07 02:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I do believe that the LMC-1 has issues.

Read Gonk at AV123 forum




An interesting development has occured after you posted that link. If you continue reading that thread, Dan Laufman has made a statement concerning the LMC-1. He has said all remaining issues have been resolved...and will be making an announcement tomorrow explaining all the details

We will see...




Awesome! I checked it out and am suprised the president of the company himself posted there...nice to see them paying attention and rectifyng issues. So far I am completely sold on this combo....now I just need some more overtime to be able to afford all this!

Kinda funny, I was originally going to buy a DefTech Pro Cinema 1000 and some kind of Denon receiver. Then I screwed myself by doing some research, learning about response curves and other ratings. Slowly as I read more and more, my budget kept crawling up and up. I went from wanting that combo to wanting a combo that is going to cost more than twice as much as I had intended to spend. I think the running tally is going to be around $4200 (I know, thats not a lot for many HT/Audiophiles, but its a lot for my middle class ass)...but I know I am trading/paying for the difference of "oh that sounds really good" to "OH MY GOD!"...and considering the price points of a lot of products, I think the chosen components are at the real sweet spot for price/performance.

Anyway, I have about half the money saved up and should be ready to order everything within the next 60 days or so...really looking forward to having a pair of M80s flanking my TV and the HSU sub sitting next to my couch.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Emotiva LMC/LPA or Outlaw 1070 for M80 setup? - 03/16/07 12:25 AM

BH, I intentionally wasn't specific, since moderately priced receivers are so good these days that, as long as you get the features you want, you really can't go wrong. Among those that come to mind in that general price area are the Denon 887, Onkyo 604 and Yamaha 661.