what do you guys think of THX certs.

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I am trying to decide between two receivers Denon 1803, and Kenwood 6070 as far as specs go they are similar Denon 80w per channel/Kenwood 100w. They both have the features/inputs I need except that the Kenwood is THX certified thus featuring Thx surround EX. The Kenwood is a little more expensive but I certainly don't mind if the upgrade to THX cert is worth it. Is THX certification more than just dare I say a "marketing tool" or are the features it offer unique and valuable. What kind of audible difference does it make in movie soundtracks over a reciever that isn't THX certified? Thanks for the help.

In my opinion, it's little more than a marketing tool at this point. There are also other issues involved that sometimes prevents something from being certified. For instance, it costs money to do so and many lower end models aren't certified because the target market doesn't care about the cert. Additionally, Yamaha doesn't certify anything because they won't give LucasArts access to their DSP technology (which is incredibly impressive).

If both carry the features you want, throw both on a credit card, put them in your system, listen to both and return the one that doesn't sound as good as the other.

Lastly, both do DD EX and DTS ES, superior to THX EX to me, though the Denon also offers Neo:6 which is pretty swank as well.

Jake, although it certainly can be used as a marketing tool, it's far more than that. I've read enough about the tough series of tests that equipment has to go through to get THX certification(manufacturers discussing how thorough it is and how they had to make changes when problems were turned up)that I'm impressed. This of course doesn't guarantee that it's better than a similar piece of equipment without the certification, but it's a definite plus that it meets a set of standards.

As to the 1803 vs 6070, examine all the features carefully. Note that the 6070 has the interesting Circle Surround II processing, in addition to DPL II and DTS Neo:6. I was also impressed by the Sound & Vision test on the 6070. Whether the extra THX processing features added are audibly better is debatable and I don't have an opinion.

I suppose that I would lean toward the 6070. Note that their prices are nearly identical since both are available in the $400 area.

It is true that THX certified speakers and receivers have to pass THX tests and therefore meet the minimum THX quality requirements. Such tests also require that the manufacturer spend money which in turn are tacked on to the price of whatever you are buying. Other manufacturers may opt to spend the money to improve their systems or sell their products at lower prices instead of paying for the certification process. Although their products would pass the THX certification, they opted not to go through the process.

I have listened to non THX certified speakers and receivers that sound much better than the THX certified ones. I just wanted to stress the fact that THX certification is not an absolute assurance that it is better than non certified ones.

I'm also in the process of comparing AV receivers, so far I think I'm narrowed down to the Onkyo SR-TX800, JVC RX-DP9VBK or the Kenwood VR-6070. The Onkyo seems to have all the latest bells and whistles plus OSD. The JVC is the oldest but super nice specs but not all the latest formats supported ie Dolby Prologic II, NEO:6. Kenwood seems to be the best price to performance ratio. I've found the JVC for 529.00 online so it's becomming a tough choice. I want a THX receiver because I know then it will support THX modes for movies better. With the specified 80mhz sub crossover, although some are adjustable, and proper encoding. Too bad makers must pay to be certified, I think this is hurting the industry. Isn't George Lucas rich enough?

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The JVC is the oldest but super nice specs but not all the latest formats supported ie Dolby Prologic II, NEO:6.

That is reason alone to eliminate it from your choices. DPLII is fantastic and should not be passed up. I doubt your cable or satellite broadcast are in DD.

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I want a THX receiver because I know then it will support THX modes for movies better.

This is false. There is no such thing as a THX "mode" in movies. Movies that have the THX logo have paid Lucasarts to verify that they used a transfer technology that meats the minimum requirements for the company. I've seen plenty of THX certified movies that were less than spectacular and plenty of non-THX movies that were jaw dropping.

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With the specified 80mhz sub crossover, although some are adjustable, and proper encoding.

This is true of all DD and DTS receivers with bass management.

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Too bad makers must pay to be certified, I think this is hurting the industry.

How is this hurting the industry? There are plenty of companies that don't pay to have their hardware certified because they either know their customers are competent enough to listen to their hardware and verify that it's far superior to whatever bottom basement junk CC or BB are selling or because they don't wish for Lucas to have access to their proprietary DSP technology. There are also plenty of receivers out there with the base THX certification that are utter crap. Neither of these groups are struggling for sales so I'm inclined to think the industry isn't hurting at all.

Use your ears. If you like the sound, buy it.

Regards,
Semi

Semi_On, Forgive my ignorance. I am neither an audio expert nor an audio engineer. I probably represent a vast majority of consumers who are caught up in some of the hype, that accompanies "THX" certifications. If "A" receiver had 10,000 watts per channel and .00001 distortion but no THX, but "B" had 100 watts and .05 distortion with THX, I would be hard pressed not to think I wasn't getting all my money's worth without THX certification. And that is why I say it is hurting the industry. Although I have not read the EXACT specifications that a receiver must undergo to pass THX certification. I feel that a company that wants to stay ahead is almost obligated due to consumer pressures, and the fact that they get charged for this only makes it worse. I bet you would see many, many more companies with THX certification if they didn't have to pay the royalty to put that 1" logo on their receiver, and this is passed on to the consumer. And any company who choses not to, ie Yamaha, is left behind in consumer eyes as maybe not worthy to pass these qualifications. Pioneer advertises their receivers as being the first THX Ultra 2 certified receiver. Onkyo, Kenwood, Harmon Kardon, JVC, and Denon among others all advertise this feature. Now I understand Ultra 2 is much more rigorous to pass, but consumers see this as the "Holy Grail" of audio. Like it or not THX is here to stay until someone comes up with a newer, latest and greatest standard.

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If "A" receiver had 10,000 watts per channel and .00001 distortion but no THX, but "B" had 100 watts and .05 distortion with THX, I would be hard pressed not to think I wasn't getting all my money's worth without THX certification.

THAT is what's hurting the industry, if anything. People like have specifications to judge things. They aren't comfortable with subjective decisions like what sounds better. As a result they buy way too much or way too little HT for their needs because they're so obsessed with specifications that are largely meaningless due to the amount of specmanship involved. Yamaha does VERY well with their receiver lines. Obviously, the lack of THX certification doesn't hurt them that much. Certainly, a company of their size could afford the certification process.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it has a huge impact on the industry. Some people need reasurance when spending large sums of money. For those people, THX is out there and they can feel comfortable knowing they have the bare minimum of what Lucas feels a home theater requires to enjoy movies. Some people need poorly documented specifications to compare one receiver to another so they can as well feel justified in their purpose. Some, prefer to rely on their own hearing being as that is the device which will ultimately judge the fit of a home theater. For all these people, there are products, each with the requisite characteristics to make those customers happy.

I prefer this to, say, the computer industry (my other passion) where the unaware compare Dell's $500 P4 to Gateway's in order to make sure they have the fastest Pentium on the market for their web surfing and email (all the while never aware of their 100MHz FSB, 5400rpm HDD and SDRAM...).

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I feel that a company that wants to stay ahead is almost obligated due to consumer pressures, and the fact that they get charged for this only makes it worse.

I'm with you on the charging thing, but Lucas has to fund THX somehow and the man isn't into movies for altruism (anyone doubting that need only rewatch his last two "movies"). I don't think receiver manufacturers feel OBLIGATED. Some use it for exactly as it's intended, as a marketing ploy to help the consumer feel a bit better about spending $800 on a receiver. Certainly, Bob Carver doesn't feel obligated to get his Sunfire's certified.

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I bet you would see many, many more companies with THX certification if they didn't have to pay the royalty to put that 1" logo on their receiver, and this is passed on to the consumer.

You're obviously right as it would be an easy thing to default to but then it'd be useless as a marketing ploy as EVERYONE would be certified with at least the base THX rating. For a lot of companies, it doesn't offer them a compelling product. They don't see a marketing gain for the customers they target to pay for it. Some target customers, like you, that mandate it. This market is large enough to bare the brunt of many niches with many vendors. I don't think anyone will be going out of business over it any time soon.

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And any company who choses not to, ie Yamaha, is left behind in consumer eyes as maybe not worthy to pass these qualifications.

Yamaha's financial reports seem to indicate otherwise and I don't know many people that scoff at Yamaha receivers. Anyone that picks a JVC or whatever other crap company Best Buy is whoring around over a Yamaha simply because Lucas asures them they will have the minimum receiver needed to enjoy one of his movies, probably wouldn't appreciate the difference anyway.

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Now I understand Ultra 2 is much more rigorous to pass, but consumers see this as the "Holy Grail" of audio.

I don't think that many people that can actually afford an Ultra 2 receiver and know enough about the hobby to warrant investing in one actually consider it the holy grail of audio.

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Like it or not THX is here to stay until someone comes up with a newer, latest and greatest standard.

Standards suck in a hobby based on subjectivity.

And, as a marketer, I love THX. I have to applaud anyone that can convince people their crap is top rate by buying a little emblem.

Regards,
Semi

I found two decent articles about THX, one being on http://www.thx.com. and the other being http://www.greengart.com/Columns/column036.htm. Now if we were talking computers I could talk with much more expertise than audio. But admittedly I am "refinding" audio again after a long hiatus after a fire destroyed my home several years ago. Audio components took a backseat to things like clothes and spoons and forks. So I am far behind what has been out there the last several years. Although my computer is near state of the art with RDRAM, RAID 0, 7200 rpm drives, 140mhz bus speed overclocked. I would like my audio to be comparable without spending a ton of money. That is why I am here, to ask advice from others who obviously know more than me about Axiom speakers, which I have heard nothing but raves about. And I feel by getting THX I should have a minimum decent starting point. And I agree with Avi Greengart on this quote, "You may not agree with parts of the THX philosophy, or you may simply consider the THX logo, certification, and processing a poor value for the added cost (all licensing programs add to the cost of the product). There are undoubtedly a lot of products out there that equal or exceed the quality of their THX-certified competitors. Still, when you use THX-certified speakers with THX-certified processors, a lot of the interaction guesswork has been taken care of for you, and that can have a significant impact on the quality of your system. If you have the budget, go for it."

I have to say I agree with Semi On 100%.

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Although my computer is near state of the art with RDRAM, RAID 0, 7200 rpm drives, 140mhz bus speed overclocked.

*eek*

I hope you backup often...

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And I feel by getting THX I should have a minimum decent starting point. And I agree with Avi Greengart on this quote, "You may not agree with parts of the THX philosophy, or you may simply consider the THX logo, certification, and processing a poor value for the added cost (all licensing programs add to the cost of the product). There are undoubtedly a lot of products out there that equal or exceed the quality of their THX-certified competitors. Still, when you use THX-certified speakers with THX-certified processors, a lot of the interaction guesswork has been taken care of for you, and that can have a significant impact on the quality of your system. If you have the budget, go for it."

Then why aren't you looking at THX certified speakers? If you're willing to consider the potential of fabulous companies not willing to pay Lucas for his stamp of approval on speakers, why not extend the same consideration to receivers and DVD players?

I'm not saying THX is useless or crap. I just don't think it's should be used as THE measuring stick by anyone invested enough in the hobby to spend time researching components on an A/V bulletin board. However, clearly, you are exactly the kind of person THX was intended for. You want the reasurance it offers so more power to you. I don't mean to belittle your opinion at all, if that's how you're interpreting it. I just think everyone should be well educated on exactly what THX entails and what other options exist. That's the great thing about this hobby. It's totally subjective and will pay back to you in enjoyment exactly how much energy you put into it. You don't need to simply believe Lucas's staff.

I highly recommend you audition all the components that interest you, regardless of their certification, and determine if Lucas's opinion of what makes an enjoyable movie experience is the same as yours.

Dantana,

When I started researching on what home theater system components I wanted to have, I thought that my speakers and receivers must have THX certification to ensure minimum quality requirements. I specifically omitted from my list those that did not have the certification. Then I visited several audio shops and listened to certified speakers and certified receivers. I became confused because I heard non THX certified Paradigms sound better than THX certified M&K. I was also able to listen to very impressive THX speakers but their prices are way beyond my budget. As I continue my research, I found out that it is true that THX certification will guarantee you a minimum performance requirements but there are a lot of other manufacturers whose products will surpass such minimum requirements and not charge you for the certification that are not really necessary for people like you and all of us in this forum who research and evaluate the dollars we spend on our equipment. In the final analysis, if you happen to like the THX certified speakers and receivers that you auditioned, go for it: this is your equipment and your money.

Since you can talk about computers, I would compare this with the "intel inside" advertisement. Sure, intel pentium is good but have you compared it with the price and performance of AMD athlon? My point is: with research you do not have to pay THX fee to get a system cheaper and better performing than THX certified speakers and receivers.

As for George Lucas, you know how capable he is in making money on his projects. After more than a decade we are still anxious to see Star Wars part 3 to enlighten us on things that happened in 4,5 and 6.

Semi, I do not disagree with your final decision must be done with your ears. It's just that like many of us consumers that must weed out literally thousands of products, we need some sort of "standard" to at least go by for some minimum of quality assurance. I could easily go out and buy a $300.00 receiver that sounds decent but doesn't do HT well, which will be about 75% of my listening. You yourself said that if THX were free to get, then every cheap receiver would have it. As far as THX speakers go, I can't afford $3500.00 M&K's at the moment, but I know speakers are the most important part of the sound system, and my ears will be the final judge. Or at least the advice of much more knowledgeable users or reviewers than myself. That is how I found out about Axiom in the first place. However, I know I don't want to be shortchanged later if I happen to put in a movie and my receiver doesn't encode it properly. I just think that like Greenart said, with THX I should be at least assured some measure of protection in that area. I will in the end let my ears be the judge, but I also want to know my receiver is at least capable of all modern formats. But, admittely I am not very knowledgeable about all these new features out today. NEO:6, PLII, DTS-EX, I'm not even sure I know what these do...lol. But I don't want to be sitting later wishing I spent an extra $50-100 now to get it. I do have a question though for you Semi or any one else that knows. I notice these features prevalent on THX receivers :
- THX Adaptive Decorrelation
- THX Bass Peak Level Management
- THX Front-Channel Re-Equalization
- THX Loudspeaker Position Time Synchronization
- THX Select Certification
- THX Subwoofer Crossover
- THX Surround EX
- THX Timbre-Matching
Are these features I could find on a non-THX receiver for comparable money? I imagine THX finds them necessary for HT otherwise they wouldn't mention them. But I am trying to educate myself about it before I make my final decision. At least the best I can since THX is still a "secret" technology, they will not post the requirements publically.

With the exception of Select Certification and Surround EX, those are all features that let you tune the sound. My receiver (Ultra certified) has them but you can get them (without the THX name correlation...) in many receivers. Whether or not you need them is dependent upon how close to ideal your room is and how precise your ears are. I wouldn't be surprised to find these features lacking in low end models from Sony, JVC, Pioneer, etc, but I would expect them in Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, Outlaw, Onkyo, etc.

A quick google search on each would probably give you more detailed info than I can list off here but I'll sumarize where I can.

THX Adaptive Decorrelation - attempts to break out specific sounds from mono signals to fake a surround effect.

THX Bass Peak Level Management - Prevents high bass peaks from shooting into your subwoofer and frying it.

THX Front-Channel Re-Equalization - THX claims this results in "smoother high frequency response". I've never been able to determine what exactly that means but it sounds an aweful lot like lowing the gain on high frequency signals to prevent sharp, high tone noises from screaming through your room. Some might hear that and find it more appealing. I prefer to trust the director to present sounds for the effect they want and I assume most here agree or they wouldn't be buyin typically VERY accurate Axioms.

THX Loudspeaker Position Time Synchronization - This institutes a tiny (probably imperceptible to most people in most rooms) delay in order to ensure all sounds reach your ear simultaneously.

THX Select Certification - supposed measure of quality.

THX Subwoofer Crossover - adjustible sound filter for LFE channel.

THX Surround EX - Some Dolby Digital signals have a rear channel matrixed into the right and left surround channels. If you have a 6.1 receiver, it will pull this out and move it to the rear. Non-THX receivers do this as well, just possibly through Dolby's algorithm instead of THX's. The mixer encodes with Dolby's algorithm in mind.

THX Timbre-Matching - attempts to match the front speakers to the center. Assuming you're buying voice-matched speakers for your HT in the first place, this should be a non-issue.

Some of these features may be important in your placement, some of them may not. Whether you need them is best left to you to decide. I doubt most consumers shopping for a low end receiver (I consider anything sold in BB or CC low end) are pairing it with equipment nice enough and are being careful enough with their placement to actually hear what differences they make. If you want them, look for them.

If you want to know about the various sound formats (DTS, DD, Neo:6, DPLII, etc), start another thread on the subject and I'll answer there as it's a bit outside the scope of this thread.

Regards,
Semi

A very well spoken set of words there Semi.
I would tend to agree with that opinion.

That's all i really had to say.

So the big question still remains:

Is THX certification the equivalent of a "Krusty the Clown certified product", or does the THXcert really make for a better product?

Standards can certainly be helpful for an industry to keep from having multiple formats for common electronics (vhs vs. beta, dvda vs sacd, etc.) and they can raise the bar for acceptable quality but only IF they really are stringent tests.

Personally, when i went researching and shopping for a receiver early last year, THX cert meant absolutely squat to me. I read through many many a/v receiver reviews, auditioned a couple, took some advice from local friends and experts, read over specs, looked at prices and then made a choice (Onkyo DS797).
Today however, i know that my receiver does have a THX cert (select i believe) and i STILL don't know what that says about my receiver.
Perhaps its just me, but after owning a receiver for 8 months, i haven't even bothered to take the time to see what/how my Onkyo is certified for under THX. However i have had the time to post over 400 messages on these forums.
Its all crazyness.

Dantana, sorry to hear about the house thing. That's a rea b_tch.

I see three major problems with using THX as a standard for judging A/V equipment quality.

1) The difference between slight changes in component quality can result in small performance (read: better sound) improvements. There are so many variables involved that you'd really have to have a dizzying number of quality "levels" to use anything objective as a single litmus test.

2) The THX "vision" of what makes good sound is merely one group of individuals' preference. This hobby is inherently subjective meaning the THX vision may conflict with your own. An example of this would be direct versus multi-polar speakers. THX believes surrounds should not be direct radianting. I know plenty of people that prefer the sound of direct radiating surrounds... Relying on one group's definition would merely help to eliminate the variability that makes it all so fun.

3) The qualities required to meet THX specification are largely closed and certainly not open for debate. At the very least, you'd need an open governing body with representatives from all the major manufacturers, artists, studios, engineers, etc. along with open classification.

None of these will ever be resolved, so I suggest you buy what sounds good to you.

Regards,
Semi

First I'd like to thank everyone for making me more aware to what exactly THX means. As I feel I am a newbie again at this, THX seemed like the way to go. Now I realize that it isn't necessary to have it to enjoy a good HT experience. I had crossed Yamaha off my books entirely because of no THX support in any of their products, but now I am looking at them again. I do think like cheseroo said, that standards are necessary. We wouldn't have an internet if there were 50 versions of TCP/IP around. I do believe that in 1977 when King George first started this, that it has revolutionized the industry to some degree. Now, we can all experience this same sound in the comfort of our homes. I think like anything else, THX will evolve and change, and the consumers can expect to spend big $$$ to keep up with it. But in the end, I agree Semi, let your ears be the judge, and after shooting competition for about 6 years, mine are shot....lol. I hope that future THX standards become publicized and more stringent, so that the public knows what they are getting. Not just be awed by that little logo on the front panel, not even sure of what it does.

Found this post on avsforums about THX RE-EQ I thought it was interesting.
"With regards to Re-Eq, movie soundtracks are mixed "hot" in the upper frequencies to account for what is known in the industry as the X-Curve. The X-Curve is defined in ISO Bulletin 2969 as pink noise that is flat to 2khz and dropping 3db per octave as measured from 2/3rds of the way back in the theater. Because of the difference in size between the movie theater and the average livingroom, such a soundtrack would be perceived as being excessively bright. THX's Re-Eq flattens out the response curve for proper playback in the home. So, without Re-Eq, it wouldn't be "as the director intended" in the home environment."

Good find. I think that assumes that the audio track was merely ported over and not re-mixed, but it's good to know regardless.