Denon 3808CI – one week later

Posted by: michael_d

Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/24/07 02:15 PM

Instead of boring anyone with why I bought this receiver, I’ll just say that I’ve had some ‘issues’ with four other HDMI equipped receivers within the past year. This is number five for me and it was not without reservations when I bought it. My last receiver was a Marantz SR/8001, so I’ll be referencing the Marantz from time to time. Even with all the issues I’ve had with the Marantz, it was the best sounding receiver I’ve had out of the other HDMI units, plus three others I had the year before last. (my total number of receivers I’ve owned within the past 30 months is eight).

My equipment:

M80’s for mains
M22’s (two) for the center channel
M3’s for surround backs
QS8’s for surround
EP 600 sub
Toshiba A35
Sony PS3
Oppo 970
Oppo 981
Dishnet 635 DVR
DVDO VP50pro
Panasonic PT1000U

General observations:

Some people are infatuated with the weight of a receiver and / or amp, and they feel that one has to go through a right of passage and weigh as much as a small car to be considered worthy. The 3808 isn’t a beast, but it does have some heft to it. It weighs about 39 pounds. It doesn’t feel like a playschool toy, but it’s pretty obvious that Denon cut some corners wherever they could to save costs. Whether that affects sound quality or function isn’t something I can speak to. I’d rather have a receiver that works right with cheap binding posts than one that doesn’t work right with gold plated binding posts. All the control knobs work just fine and feel OK to me. I will say that I like the lay out of the inputs and outputs. They are orientated in a logical order. Even the binding posts are arranged in one row at the bottom of the unit, which makes it easier to tie them off to my rack.

One thing this receiver has that I have not seen on many others, is the ability to run two sets of surround speakers. They share the same amp output, but have additional binding posts for 9.1 systems using four surrounds. I wouldn’t suggest using 6 or 4 ohm surrounds like this, but 8 ohm should be just fine. The receiver also has the ability to set up an additional zone (and possibly two, but I haven’t figured out the limitations of the third). I don’t use this, so I can not speak much to this. Also, if you have a 5.1 set up, you can re-assign the surround back channels to the mains for by-amping. And no, I’m not going to get into that debate. Just know you can do it with this receiver. There are four HDMI 1.3 inputs and one, HDMI 1.3 output. If you want / need two HDMI outputs, you need to jump up to the 4808CI. One thing to keep in mind with two outputs, is you will have a hard time finding an audio processor that will output from both at the same time. It’s usually one or the other, so I see little value with having two live HDMI outputs unless they are both live. There are a slew of other inputs/outputs and if you want to know more about them, I’d suggest you download the owner’s manual.

The 3808CI uses a somewhat dated video processor (Faroudja DCDi), but it doesn’t do too badly with up-converting to 1080P. I use an external video processor, so this aspect wasn’t much of a consideration to me and I have the DCDi turned off. I did do some comparisons to it and my DVDO VP50pro, and will briefly discuss that later.

There are also some other unique features worth mentioning. The 3808 has inputs for USB drives that will read pictures and / or audio files. I have not tried these, so I don’t how well it performs with them. This receiver also has networking capabilities via Ethernet, and this is also how you update its firmware (which worked perfectly for me). If you want, you can stream audio from your PC, but again, I have not messed with this function so can’t speak to it. It also has inputs for an XM radio interface, and no, I didn’t try that either. I use this receiver for movies and on rare occasion, music.

Probably the most attractive feature this receiver has, and one that I feel sets the stage for others to compete with, is its GUI. The GUI has to be the best implemented user interface and set up feature I’ve ever seen. If you can navigate Windows Explorer, you can navigate the GUI. It’s set up similarly. You have the main functions, which have a tree hierarchy. You just move the up/down/right/left toggle to navigate. I will say that some of the features are cleverly hidden and take some time using to remember where they are, but it’s pretty intuitive and not something to be afraid of by any means.

Set up:

Set up was quite painless and in truth, I didn’t even use the manual until after I had completed the basic set up and got everything up and running. I have later read the manual and tweaked a few things, but found the basic set up to get everything set up fairly well. As with most receivers, you just go to the auto set up feature and follow the instructions. Every thing in the GUI you highlight has a brief description telling you what it does (although that can be vague at times).

At first, I had all my components routed into my VP50pro, and then used one HDMI cable to connect the Pro to the 3808. I use banana connectors for my speakers, and found the 3808’s speaker posts snug enough, although the aluminum lining was disappointing. I’d have thought Denon could have at least sprung for copper. Oh well, they work….

The 3808 uses the latest Audysey room correction EQ software and it is also Audysey Pro ready if you like to pay someone for this service. You can position the supplied mic up to eight different locations. My room is pretty small, but I ended up using seven positions anyway (figured it couldn’t hurt). You place the mic at the main ‘reference’ spot in your room first and take the initial set up readings there. The receiver checks for phase, connections and distances. You then move the mic as many times as you want (up to eight total) and it takes readings again for each location. One thing I found irritating is how long this process took. I didn’t time all this, but I know it took me no less than 30 minutes to complete the audio set up. I’d suggest that you make sure the kids aren’t running around making noise and you do it when no one will interrupt you. If during the set up there is extra ambient noise and you need to re-do a position, you get to start from the beginning again (yes, it happened to me). After the set is complete, you can verify the settings and either accept them for memory storage or start over. When completed, I was amazed at how close everything was. The distances were perfect and the channel adjustments were also perfect. This was a first for me… The X-over settings were also perfect. In the past, Audysey did some very odd things to my set up and I would end up changing settings, but not this time. I’ve left everything as is.

For reference, it set up my speakers as follows:

Mains – Large
Center – small / 40
Surround – small / 90
Surround back – small / 60
LFE – LFE (LFE goes to mains, and sub)

After set up was complete, I used my radio shack digital meter and an Avia HD set up disk and checked the channels. I did not feel the need to change anything. Bass and channels were closer than I’ve ever been able to manually set them in the past.

If you wish, you can tweak anything you want, including the Audysey EQ settings. All you do is go into the manual set up, select copy EQ curve and tweak it however you wish and save it as a manual setting (you can do this differently for each input or surround format). I have not felt the need to do this, but I did play with it any way. It’s painless. You can also select several different EQ curves including; Flat, Audysey, Audysey – L/R, or L/R. You can select different X-over setting for each speaker set in increments of 20 up to 80, and then it’s increments of 10 on up. I’d like to see more options, but can live with these.

After you set up the audio parameters, you then have a gazillion other options available for each surround mode (limited to each surround mode’s capability). For example, you can set up any input differently from any other input. You can set up one input for DTS, another for DDPLIIx and another for Neural surround with each having unique channel levels, X-over’s, lip sync delay and different video settings. There is also some unique center channel options like what Denon calls “Cinema Equalizer” which lowers the front channel high frequencies some (similar to THX). There is also a ‘Decompression” setting for compressed audio which does a fine job at reproducing compressed audio like MP3. I found that SD satellite audio is greatly improved by using this feature. There are three different levels for this too.

One thing I have learned with all these functions is that some are not available depending on the surround format. Some formats do not support them, so you just have to play with each to see what you can do with them. DD+ and DD-True HD allow you tweak the heck out them, while DTS is somewhat limited. I’m still figuring this out, so can’t really comment much more on that.

There are simply too many things this receiver can do to detail each one (plus I’m still trying to figure them all out). Considering that, I’m not going to go over all of them….

Video performance:

As I said earlier, I use an external Video Processor, so I have the DCDi bypassed. But out of curiosity, I did some A/B testing to see how well the DCDi works. The VP50pro is arguably one of the best VP’s on the market, so it’s not really a fair comparison, but I have to admit that the DCDi does an admirable job with SD sources. I think anyone other than die hard videophiles would be satisfied with this receiver. The VP50pro definitely outputs a better looking picture, but when I compared the 3808 to the Oppo 981, the differences in video quality are very hard for me to see. So if you’ve seen what the Oppo 981 can do with SD and find that good enough, the 3808 should be good enough for you too.

Sound quality:

I just hate this topic, but suppose I should jot down my opinion anyway because someone is sure to ask. I hate it because everyone has their own idea of what sounds good to them, and without doing a true blind listening test, I don’t think anyone can objectively compare or even pass judgment on how well any piece of electronic does. Keeping that in mind; in direct stereo, pure direct and 7 channel stereo, I find the Denon to sound very good. In fact, just as well as any other receiver I’ve had in this system. The only noteworthy difference I can pick up on between this receiver and my two channel rig with Rotel separates is with what I call, ‘white noise’. This is when the volume control is maxed out without any source playing and you can hear a hiss. I hear nothing with my two channel rig. The Marantz SR/8001 was also silent. The 3808 however has a very slight and almost non-detectable hiss. It’s very slight, but I can hear it. If this is good or bad, I have no idea. Use your own judgment.

I popped in a couple disks that I like to use when doing these very un-scientific listening tests (Pink Floyd, DSOTM SACD, Alison Kraus and Green Day). All I can say is they all sound excellent and I most definitely did not feel wanting for more.

Where I will comment and express my opinion is in regards to how well a surround receiver does with surround playback. Some have done horribly with this while others do OK and then there are others that just sound great. Only the Marantz, and now this Denon have sounded great to me. I suppose Audysey has something to do with this. If I had to choose between the Marantz and this Denon, my pick is the Denon. The bass is just right and not too over powering or lacking. Sometimes I would feel as if there was too much LFE or not enough when using the Marantz, but I don’t get this feeling with the Denon. With the Marantz, I had to use the EP600’s trim control, but I don’t with the Denon. Plus, there’s very little that a person can not do with the EQ curves to tweak this receiver at will, if needed. The Marantz is somewhat limited in this regard.

Remote and discrete commands:

I use a programmable remote, so I haven’t taken the time to mess with the 3808’s remote(s) much, but from the little I have, I think it sucks. Where I am impressed is with all the discrete commands that are available for this receiver. There are so many, that my MX 850 does not have enough panels for all the commands (and it has a bunch). For example; there are discrete commands for adjusting every channel up or down, commands for selecting every surround format, tone controls, EQ controls and so forth. For custom installers, I’m guessing this receiver will be pretty fun for them to set up and I am going to buy a new programmable remote just so I can populate it with all these commands. Way cool….

4 ohm load:

Seeing how I’ve got 4 ohm R, L and center channels, plus 6 ohm surrounds, I need a receiver with some ‘oomph’. The Denon is rated at 130 WPC, and I don’t doubt that it has every bit of that. I tend to watch movies at reference levels, and I’ve shut down a few receivers before. So far, I’ve not had any problems driving my system with this receiver nor have I felt the need to add external amplification. When playing around with multi channel stereo, my SPL meter was bouncing above 100 db’s at a – 10 db on the volume control (it goes to a +18). I didn’t pin the volume or feel the need to do so. It does not get hot to the touch either.

HD audio formats and M-channel PCM:

As with all these new HDMI receivers and using HD/BR players, there always seams to be some limitation to what they will do. I’m almost hesitant to say this, but so far, I have not found any limitations with this receiver. It will accept Multi-channel PCM from my PS3 and A35, including 6.1 and 7.1 discrete sources. It will apply PLIIx to 5.1 sources. You can also adjust the channels at will with these formats and save them to any input. The 3808 will also accept DD +, DD-TruHD, DTS-HD:HR and DTS-HD:Master bitstream formats. If you have a 5.1 source of any of these formats, it will apply either DTS-Neo6 or PLIIx. If you have a 7.1 source of any of these formats it recognizes the formats as discrete and will even light up a little box telling you it is discrete.


I could go on and on, but this is already too long of a report, so if you have any additional questions, just ask and I’ll find the answer.

Pictures to follow.
Posted by: michael_d

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/24/07 02:26 PM

These are hand held without flash using my Olympus 510 and in RAW format without any post processing. A little blury, but I was in a hurry.

Marantz on top / Denon on bottom





The DVDO's



The GUI with volume control



GUI over a 1080P/24 image



No GUI



EQ / Right / Left


Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/24/07 02:48 PM

Excellent, Mike! I really appreciate the time and effort you put into your equipment reviews. From the new HD players to receivers you have helped a bunch of us sort out the technology.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/24/07 03:16 PM

sounds great! Looks like this thing will drive my epic 80 system with no problem.

One question I do have, what settings did you have on your 600 before your ran the auto set up?
Posted by: mastaplaya

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/24/07 03:38 PM

Thanks for the review. Sounds like a great match for the axiom's
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/24/07 03:51 PM

Mike,

Thanks for the review. I look forward to getting a new receiver with advanced features such as this one someday.
Posted by: michael_d

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/24/07 04:13 PM

 Originally Posted By: terzaghi


One question I do have, what settings did you have on your 600 before your ran the auto set up?


I have the volume control set at 50% and trim to off. I'm going off memory, but I think that is the "FLAT" position. After setup, the sub was set to a -9 DB.

No problem with doing these reports guys..... I try to pay back when I can for all the questions I ask here.
Posted by: Gumbini

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/24/07 04:31 PM

Mike, thanks for the great review. Do you know how the Denon compares to the Yamaha RXV2700 or 3800?
Posted by: michael_d

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/24/07 06:00 PM

Not in depth. I have used a Yamaha before (661), and while I found it to be an OK receiver, I did not like Yamaha's room EQ and find Audysey to be vastly superior. For that reason I decided to not buy another one.

The only other receiver I gave serious thought towards buying was the Onkyo 905 or its sibling, the Integra 8.8. I decided against it because of too many user complaints and the fact that it runs hot to the touch. Plus its VP is altering the color space from 4.2.2 to 4.4.4. I find it troubling for any electronic gear to run hot to the touch because heat kills electronic components. If I really needed a good on board Video Chip, the Onkyo would have been harder to pass up, even with its quirks.
Posted by: chesseroo

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/24/07 06:36 PM

Mother of Pearl that's long.
This will take some time.
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/24/07 07:05 PM

Mike:
Thanks for the great review!

I currently have a 3805 & I just wish Denon would hire two guys within that gigantic corporate structure to write and illustrate decent manuals. There's really no excuse to have people complaining year after year about the manuals.

I don't really have any justification for a new receiver, but if I did the 3808 would be on the short list.

Quick question: Two odd little things I would like to see on my next receiver are the ability to name inputs (I still lose track of what weird thing I am feeding in on the "DBS" input on my Denon) and a sleep timer.

Any chance the Denon has one of those or both?
Posted by: HomeDad

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/24/07 09:15 PM

Nice review Mike, if I hadn't already popped for the 4806 this receiver would be at the top of my list.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/24/07 10:00 PM

Mark, you can rename inputs on the denon receiver.

I renamed the "HDP" (high definition player) to HD-DVD, and one of the component inputs to Xbox 360
Posted by: Hansang

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/24/07 10:58 PM

How funny, I have the 8001 and was considering changing it with 3808. Out of curiosity, what motivated you to change the Marantz with the Denon? What were your top reasons?
Posted by: michael_d

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/24/07 11:16 PM

Not sure about the sleep mode Mark. I can’t find it in the manual, nor have I stumbled over it. Not only can you rename the inputs, you actually get to see what you rename them to on the display. You can also delete inputs so you don’t have to see them or cycle through them. Pretty cool feature.

Hansang,

I didn’t need, or really want to buy this receiver or do it to replace the Marantz. I would have preferred to wait a few months and see what Sherwood Newcastle comes out with, or Rotel. Unfortunately, I’m on my second SR/8001 that replaced a defunct unit. The second one also has issues that required me to send it in for evaluation. I decided to just buy something different and I’ll peddle whatever Marantz sends back to me. I do prefer this Denon over the Marantz though. So maybe this will work out….

Michael,
The 4806 is one heck of a reciever. I wish I would have just bought one of those in the first place. I wouldn't suggest you ditch it until something really cool hits the streets.
Posted by: ihifi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/24/07 11:16 PM

mdrew,

You mention that the Onkyo 905 would have been harder to pass up despite the quirks with its better (Silicon Optix ReonVX compared to Faroudja FLI02310) video processing if you needed a good on board video chip. What I noticed is that the Onkyo 905 also has THX Ultra2 Certification, dual push-pull amps, and Burr-Brown's newest PCM1796 DACs (123dB SNR). The Denon 3808 uses the same three TI SHARC DSPs as the Onkyo for audio decoding and processing, but somewhat inferior Burr-Brown PCM1791 DACs (113dB SNR) from 2005. Notwithstanding the fact that you are using an outboard video processor, do you think there may also be a difference on audio performance between these two units? Were the user complaints you mention related to audio or video performance with the 905? Thanks.

John
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/24/07 11:40 PM

Mike, enjoyed reading your observations, although I wish that you could've gone over those other 73 inputs and outputs for us. Hope that the audio gods are kinder to you with this one.

John, DACs these days are a mature technology so far as actually having an audible effect on performance because of small differences in the specs. The 1791 that the 3808 uses has an SNR already well beyond what's required for audibly flawless performance in that respect.
Posted by: michael_d

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/25/07 10:39 AM

John,

Ya, what JohnK said about the DAC’s. Allan has also commented before about DAC performance. What most folks don’t realize is that DAC’s are cheap. I believe the very best DAC you can buy is under 10 bucks. What’s more important, is how well they are implemented into the whole electronic package. This is the same as with video processing chips. Even though the Reon is getting some very good praise, if it’s implemented incorrectly, it won’t do a lick of good. Having said that, I don’t think anyone can make a claim that any piece of audio gear will sound better than another without doing a true blind listening session, and those that do make those claims should probably be ignored because they are obviously F-O-S.

As far as the Onkyo quirks I mentioned, I’d prefer to not get into that in this thread because it was not my intention to turn this into a “which receiver should I get thread”, but just a user report on this particular Denon. Denon has a large fan base on these boards, and I figured I’d just pass along some information to any who may be considering this receiver. If you go to AVS, there’s a multitude of threads discussing the new Onkyo’s and their related problems.
Posted by: ihifi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/25/07 11:20 AM

Hi mdrew,

Thanks for the follow up. The basis for my inquiry is that I am considering the Integra DTC-9.8 as a pre-pro to pair with the A1400-8. I suspect the 9.8 has similar audio/video boards to the 905 but without the internal amps. It is very hard to find due to high demand, and the Denon 3808 represents a nice alternative, especially since it can also accept HBR audio and decode all 4 high-rez formats internally. User reports at AVS have been very positive (no lip sync issues, for instance).

I guess a separate question is what characteristics to look for in the pre-outs of AVRs if one contemplates using them as a pre-pro. What would be the pre-out voltage requirement, for instance. I guess this could be considered in another thread unless someone cares to chime in.

John
Posted by: michael_d

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/25/07 11:49 AM

John,

The 9.8 / 1400 is the combination I had my heart set on, but when I starting thinking about all that money and my ‘huge’ 12 X 16 room, I decided to spend the money I save buying a receiver on something more useful.

If you want particular information on the 9.8/1400 combo, shoot CV a PM. He’s got it. If you can’t find the 9.8, the Onkyo Pro 885 is the same thing, but prettier. I’ve read that both of these units run hot as well (they also use the Reon).

If you go with a receiver as a pre/pro, you will loose balanced outputs. Unless you plan to have the amp and pre/pro twenty feet or so apart from each other, I doubt balanced outputs will serve any useful purpose other than cost you a pocket full of ten dollar bills.

I absolutely love the GUI on this Denon. Unless the Integra has something comparable, I’d sure hate to give this up. It’s just too friggin cool.
Posted by: CV

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/25/07 11:53 AM

I like the GUI being an overlay. That's something I would have liked on the Integra, especially for adjusting lip sync. There are plenty of options on the Integra, but it looks like there's even finer control on this Denon. Sounds like a great unit.
Posted by: chesseroo

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/25/07 02:13 PM

Superb review of the receiver.
You must be getting good at it considering how many you've owned now.
I have had no reason to change out my 6.1 Onkyo DS797 since we bought it, though i've been contemplating moving to a 7.1 unit and because i like alot of the Onkyo features, i may stay with that brand. A friend owns a Denon and i found the rooting around the menu very unintuitive.
I think it is common ground to have crappy, horribly translated manuals.


 Originally Posted By: mdrew
There are four HDMI 1.3 inputs and one, HDMI 1.3 output.

This feature is a plus and a minus depending on your uses. I like the capability of video switching and having only one input being used on the video display for wire runs, but sometimes i want to play music but watch a game on the tv. Once i select dvd or cd on the receiver, the video gets flipped over accordingly.
I can setup the other way of wiring but then would have to change (add) to the startup sequence for any different activity.
Does this sound as confusing as it does to write it?

 Originally Posted By: mdrew
I’d suggest that you make sure the kids aren’t running around making noise and you do it when no one will interrupt you. If during the set up there is extra ambient noise and you need to re-do a position, you get to start from the beginning again (yes, it happened to me).

Phone ring?
Dog bark?
Spousal complaint?
;\)
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/25/07 05:33 PM

Mike, that was an EXCELLENT review. I found it not only enjoyable but also compelling.

So, what I hear you saying is, you've had this thing for over a week and it hasn't caught on fire even one time? Amazing.

Based on your experience (especially with the GUI), Denon might just be able to retain me as a customer after all.

Just great, Mike. Thank you so much.
Posted by: Hansang

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/25/07 06:59 PM

 Originally Posted By: mdrew
[snip]
Hansang,

I didn’t need, or really want to buy this receiver or do it to replace the Marantz. I would have preferred to wait a few months and see what Sherwood Newcastle comes out with, or Rotel. Unfortunately, I’m on my second SR/8001 that replaced a defunct unit. The second one also has issues that required me to send it in for evaluation. I decided to just buy something different and I’ll peddle whatever Marantz sends back to me. I do prefer this Denon over the Marantz though. So maybe this will work out….


I see. Thanks for the follow-up. I don't really have any reason to switch it out, other than it's a pain to get the FW upgraded on the Marantz (having to haul it in to a service center in Manhattan is a MAJOR pain). I'm also curious how much better Master Audio is as well. Maybe not $1500's worth, but curious non the less
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/25/07 07:04 PM

funny, coming straight off the marantz website:\

After all, killing a Marantz (besides being almost impossible to do) is an entertainment felony of the first order.

http://us.marantz.com/Products/2205.asp#

I guess that statement has been proven wrong
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/25/07 08:09 PM

They underestimated Mike.

Wise people have learned not to.
Posted by: Murph

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/26/07 07:59 AM

Thanks for the pics of the on screen interface. I was curious to see how much it improved over the old mainframe looking style of old. Impressive.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/26/07 10:46 PM

I ran the audessey eq auto setup, The distances were pretty spot on for most the speakers, but it said the sub was 20 feet away when it is like 11?

Also at the end the the sub was set to like -12 db?!?

It showed the crossover for my center channel as 40 hz, and for the mains it was blank.

hmmm, going to have to toy with the results here... not sure

what do you think mdrew? how do I fix the sub reading? I had the crossover set to bypass, trim to flat, and volume at about 60% during the test... did I do something wrong?
Posted by: HomeDad

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/26/07 11:50 PM

If you really get into the Denon manual it will explain the reason for the distance of the sub, internal circuitry delays or some other tech stuff, I can't get the precise words for it but it's not a problem and all the Denon's seem to do it. Can't explain why your mains don't show anything though.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/27/07 12:57 AM

I guess it is because the denon set the sub to LFE only, not LFE+ mains, so no crossover there.

I changed the sub value to 10.2 ft, and increased it from -12 db (which audessey automatically picked) to closer to like -5 db. The gain is at about 60% on the sub...

Is this too much of a change? I do not have an SPL meter,

Also, do I want to set the sub to LFE+ mains and put a crossover? for some reason the audessey set up did not do this.
Posted by: HomeDad

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/27/07 01:09 AM

Any change you make that sounds better to you is fine, I would put on a movie with alot of LFE and test the effects of both settings to see where you prefer it. I enjoy how my autosetup set everything so I've left it alone.
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/27/07 07:16 AM

Terz:
I would put the sub distance back to where it was.

What's happening is that because there's circuitry and amplification in the sub, the signal gets slowed down a bit more than if it were just a straight connection from the jacks in the back to the cone.

The fact that your Denon "hears" the signal taking a bit longer to get to the mic is being interpreted as the sub being further away.

So really, leaving that distance set at the "further" setting that Audyssey found was indeed correct to make up for that slight delay.
Posted by: michael_d

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/27/07 11:04 AM

Michael and Mark already told you what I would have.

If you do not have an SPL meter, you need to trust Audysey. I found the LFE setting to be perfect. The distance is supposed to be greater, and the rule of thumb is to add 6 feet of distance to your actual distance if you do not have an auto EQ program. I’d move it back where Audysey/Denon put it.

The X-over should be blanked out. It set your mains to large, so all LFE will go to the mains, plus the sub for the settings under the crossover point it set for the remaining speakers. I have mine to LFE so the LFE goes to the mains and sub. You should just toggle back and forth and see what you prefer. Depending on the size of your room, and where you have the sub’s volume control, you could see a variety of settings for the sub. Mine is -9.

Just pop in a couple DVD’s and see how it sounds to you. If you don’t like it, copy the curve and set up a manual profile. It’s not too difficult, but be warned……once you head down this road, it’s doubtful you will ever be happy. It’s like power seats, does anyone every really just set them and leave them alone? No, I doubt it. But the older cars with non-adjustable seats and steering wheels were all comfortable as is after a few hours………
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/27/07 11:14 AM

I changed the sub distance back to what it was (or close to it at least) I could not remember exactly what it was, 20.something so I just used 20, The sub was set at -12db, and I changed it to about - 6db this morning.

Everything else will remain unchanged. I will probably grab an spl meter soon and at least check the settings.

I would like to experiment with setting the main speakers to small and using a crossover- but that will wait. I am very happy with the audessey results, just want to experiment a bit \:\)

Does the denon 3808 let you set the main's to small with a crossover to the sub for stereo sound (when listening to music that needs a sub), but leave them set to large for the audessey calibrated 5.1 set up?
Posted by: Hutzal

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/27/07 11:16 AM

Mike,

It looks like a keeper, congrats on your new marriage! Hopefully it won't end up in an exchange \:\)
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/27/07 12:56 PM

Or a reality TV episode.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/27/07 03:42 PM

I guess I don't need to set the mains to small and apply a crossover after all... I think? If I want to add a subwoofer for my 2 channel music that needs a little extra bass, I guess I can just change the sub from LFE to "main +LFE"

will this option send the bass from the mains to the sub kind of like having the mains set to small with a crossover?

If this is the case, I wonder what frequency the cutoff point is for what stays with the mains and what goes to the sub?

I think I am a little confused on the difference between setting the mains to small with a crossover, or leaving them at large with the sub set to "LFE + main"
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/27/07 06:37 PM

2 channel music in direct mode will allow your sub to work with the speakers and no crossovers. LFE+Main means the LFE signal in DVDs will be sent to the main speakers as well as the sub, this option may help poor room dynamics and spread out the LFE providing your mains are up to the task. When the mains are set to small and a cross over point is made the receiver starts to send anything below that point to the sub and frees up the load on the receivers amp and the speakers are free to articulate the area of sound they do better at. For M60 - 80 the crossover is usually set around 50-80hz depending on the room and how the listener likes it.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/27/07 07:11 PM

actually, 'LFE + main' says "play low range and LFE signals of all channels"

while 'LFE' says "play low range and LFE signals of all speakers set to small"

When listening to two channel stereo I changed it to 'LFE + main' with my mains set to large, and the sub started pumping out the bass....

I am not sure what the denon considers "low range" so its like it is some kind of crossover setting applied to a 'large' speaker- this is what has me confused.

I think I understand how a crossover setting works on a 'small' speaker, but I am not exactly sure what is happening with this 'LFE + main' mode ( what frequency is being sent to the sub? instead of cutting off the low end sent to the mains with a crossover, is it playing the low end in both the mains and the sub? and I still do not understand exactly what 'low range'
means
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/27/07 08:01 PM

LFE is a specific coding done during production which is why you see the "play low range and LFE signals of all speakers set to small" or 'LFE + main "play low range and LFE signals of all channels", it's just that the specific LFE signal is now getting played through the front main speakers as well as the sub with the LFE + Main setting.


The low range should be what ever is below your crossover setting in the receiver.

2 channel stereo for Denon, I do believe, they don't use the sub except in LFE + Main mode, but in direct mode the sub is always on regardless of any xover settings..
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/27/07 09:53 PM

hmmm- when I put a cd into my a2 hd-dvd player and try stereo or direct with LFE+main or just LFE I get no bass out of my sub.

Through my 360 its says dolby digital and the music gets a sub (only the fronts and sub are on.) If I change it to stereo or direct no sub there either...

I need to figure out how the denon works. I still can't get the sub working with stereo or direct mode on either the HD DVD or the 360
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/27/07 10:55 PM

T, just a quick partial reply. Keep in mind that the "+ main" setting just adds more input to the sub; the mains remain playing full-range when they're set large. As to how much of the mains low bass(not LFE)also goes to the sub in that setting, the Denon manual isn't clear(surprise)as to whether an arbitrary frequency(e.g. 80Hz)is used or one of the settings from speakers set "small" is also applied for sending mains bass to the sub.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 12:57 AM

Johnk, I found in a menu somewhere in the GUI where it showed the crossovers that were assigned by the audessey eq. It showed LFE+main as 80hz, so apparently this 'arbitrary' crossover is adjustable... I guess I just over looked it.

Still not sure why the denon will not use my sub with a stereo source such as an audio cd through my Hd DVD player.

Sorry, I seem to have gotten this thread off track a bit, focusing more on my specific problems then general denon 3808 questions.

sorry mdrew, great review by the way.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 02:07 AM

Well, p.41 of the manual implies that in "direct" the sound stays in the same channels and there's no bass management, so with CDs(where there's no LFE channel, of course)there'd be nothing to go to the sub. In "stereo" however, if mains are set "small" with a crossover(the default, as shown at p.29, is in fact 80Hz, if it wasn't set otherwise manually or by Odyssey), the sub should be getting the low bass below 80Hz or other setting. If the mains are set "large" there'd be no low bass to the sub if it's set LFE only; if "+ mains" was set, then the sub should get the mains bass below the 80Hz default or other frequency set.
Posted by: Hutzal

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 10:05 AM

Terz,

what is your EP500 set to for a crossover, bypass?
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 11:23 AM

yes it is set on bypass.

there is still no bass coming from the sub with a stereo source.

The mains are set to large, but I have the subwoofer set to 'LFE + main' with an 80hz crossover
Posted by: Hutzal

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 11:51 AM

try setting the sub to just "LFE" and see if that works. Although it should work with that setting...
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 12:21 PM

What happens when the mains are set to small?
Posted by: Hutzal

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 12:24 PM

Ahhh Jason, you are right, they need to be set to small, otherwise there will be no crossing over from the mains to the sub. If you have small mains, and the "LFE+Mains" option on, you will get both playing the LFE. Sheesh, not sure how I overlooked that!
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 12:29 PM

Would somebody please draw a chart for us visual learners? ;\)
Posted by: michael_d

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 12:43 PM

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Or a reality TV episode.


Tom, Get back in your room. This time I'm taking away your remote! \:\)

The way I interpret the LFE and LFE + Main sub setting is:

Set the sub setting to LFE if you want bass below the crossover point from all speakers set to “small” to go to the sub. All speakers that have been set to large will still be sent a full range signal. No bass from the channels/speakers set to large will be directed to the sub.

Set the sub setting to LFE + Main if you want all bass below the crossover point from all speakers set to “small” to go to the sub AND bass from the speakers set to “large” to go to the sub as well. What I do not understand is at what crossover point will this Denon termed “low bass” is, and just how much bass will be added to the sub in addition to the full range signal still being sent to the speakers that are set to “large”.

I have tried both with a 5.1 audio source (Avia test disk) and could not detect a difference by ear or by indication on my SPL meter. Because I find this LFE + Main setting confusing, and also contradictory, I have elected to leave my sub setting at LFE. I have not testing this with a two channel CD and suspect that if there is a difference between these two settings, it will be with two channel that does not have a dedicated LFE channel.
Posted by: Bayne

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 01:08 PM

I've found that indeed with 2 channels LFE + Main is the only way to get your sub working. If you select LFE, then the sub isn't utilized. For movie's, I too can't hear any difference, so I just leave it set to LFE + Main.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 01:14 PM

solved the problem guys, with a little help from AVS forum.

so I had my sub set to 'yes' and 'lfe+main' with a crossover at 80 hz.
These settings were applied in the GUI at the following location

manual setup->speaker setup->speaker config
to set the mains to large, and
manual setup->speaker setup->subwoofer set up
to put the sub to 'lfe+main'

It turns out that there is another place in the gui you must make adjustments for stereo playback

in the GUI go to
manual setup->audio set up-> stereo/direct

here it showed subwoofer to 'no'

I changed it to yes and lfe + main, with an 80 hz crossover to test the bass output

Holy crap my sub POUNDS in stereo mode with an 80 hz crossover.
I think setting you mains to 'large' with sub set to 'LFE+main' is different then a 'small' setting with a crossover because the mains AND the sub are playing the low range signals (at least as low as the m80's can possibly play)

if I set it to LFE the sub does not work with stereo sound (because it is only sending the low range signals from 'small' speakers to the sub, and my mains are set to large.)

If I turn it to LFE+main then even speakers set to 'large' (my mains) will send the sub 80hz tones to the sub.

anyway, thanks for all of th input guys!


mdrew, there is an option under both of the setup menus (speaker set up and audio set up), that lets you adjust what 'low range' (80 hz, 60 hz, ect.) signals are sent to the sub when you have LFE+main turned on

anyway, I am now satisfied that my sub is working as it should be, and have since turned it to 'no' for stereo play back. When I feel like listening to some bass heavy rap or techno, I can change it to 'yes' and shake my house apart.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 02:06 PM

Glad you figured it out.

Yes, LFE+Mains is different than speakers set to 'small' with the crossover. As you/we said 'LFE + Mains' the sub and mains get all the low frequency including those in the LFE channel. Also as was stated before when speakers are set to 'small', everything below the crossover point is then sent to the sub and not the speaker.

I think your sub is calibrated a little too hot if it POUNDS with music. It could also just be the music is produced very bass heavy. Does your sub not pound with HT?

Is there another special screen to setup the sub for different modes ie. stereo vs. direct vs 5/6/7/channel stereo vs. all the movie modes? You could always recalibrate the sub to sound more even with the rest of the system manually.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 02:59 PM

I did not see an option to change the sub setting for stereo different than for direct.

You can however change the sub settings for multichannel sources differently from stereo sources. Also, you can change the sub settings differently for all of the various multichannel modes (widescreen, cinema, stadium, ect.) so you can have several settings pre-prgorammed.

MY sub definitely has the ability to blend in with the music, but for most of my music I do not feel I need a sub at all.

I was listening to some rap to test my sub, and This particular track was definitely VERY bass heavy.

The gain is at about 60% on my sub(where it was at during the audessey eq setup.

Audessy set my sub at about -12db, and I upped it to about -6.5db, so It probably is running a little 'hot'

I will adjust it down later if needed so the sub is more subtle, but I am just testing it's abilities right now \:\)

I have not had a chance to listen to my sub much with HT yet, been very busy.

Posted by: mastaplaya

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 04:10 PM

What Size of spade connection would you need to connect speakers to this unit? And what size do axiom speakers use? Thinking of buying the 3808 or 4808 and some axioms and was going to order speaker wire from axiom as well.
Posted by: Jc

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 05:04 PM

Hi,

Axiom installs high quality gold plated five-way binding post model on its audio speakers. These binding posts will accept bare wire plus the four following connector types; pin, banana plug, spade and round connector as well. A 1/4" spade will slide inside the indents/slots of the binding post.

Axiom audiophile quality terminated cables are offered with 1/4" and 3/8" spades or a mix of the two (one end 1/4", the other 3/8").
Posted by: mastaplaya

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 05:58 PM

What do you recommend for speaker connections? I know that the AVR I am looking at has banana plug connections but not sure what size of spade connection I'm assuming that they are the same 1/4 inch connections but I'm not sure.

Sorry, didnt mean to hijack the thred just hoping for a quick answer.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 06:10 PM

I will just second the notion of buying the Axiom wire, it is great, super flexible and lays nice and flat. If you want the banana plugs they work and look great too.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 06:28 PM

I wouldn't count on the binding posts on the receiver handling spades. Also--wouldn't that waste an awful lot of space on the back? I'd use banana plugs or bare wire, myself.
Posted by: richeydog

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 06:31 PM

 Originally Posted By: jakewash
super flexible and lays nice

I wish I had a girlfriend with those qualities...
Posted by: Hutzal

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 06:33 PM

 Originally Posted By: terzaghi
I have not had a chance to listen to my sub much with HT yet, been very busy.


Too busy comparing the sound of an exploding RPG to that of a hand grenade on COD 4? hmmm, which one has more bass??
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 08:46 PM

 Originally Posted By: richeydog
 Originally Posted By: jakewash
super flexible and lays nice

I wish I had a girlfriend with those qualities...


I'd go with banana plugs then.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 09:59 PM

Mas, bare wire is fine(even in the close quarters of the receiver terminals)unless you're thinking of frequently changing connections and want the convenience of banana plugs.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 10:08 PM

Bayne, as T discovered when the special stereo setting for the sub on his 3808 was changed from "no" to "yes", it's always possible to use the sub with 2-channel material. If the mains are set "small" and the sub "yes" of course, it gets bass below the selected crossover when set "LFE" only. The "+Main" setting isn't necessary or generally advisable.
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 10:43 PM

 Quote:
Mas, bare wire is fine

Why did I read that as "bare wife is fine"?

Don't answer that.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 11/28/07 10:56 PM

2 kids.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/04/07 03:15 PM

Does anyone know why the 3808 set my ep 500 to -12 db with the auto set up?

All other channels are in the 0 to +3 range
Posted by: Bayne

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/04/07 04:29 PM

The Audessey is a funny thing, but useful. The settings it gave me don't make sense either, but they sound wonderful. After I ran it, I used an SPL meter and set everything manually. It didn't sound nearly as good as what the Audessey gave me. Maybe it's best not to try and figure the thing out and just enjoy the music if it works for you?
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/04/07 04:46 PM

I leave it at -12 or -11 for most music.

I adjust it anywhere from -6 to 0 for movies though....

I think I could benefit from experimenting with sub placement. right now the only other real option for placement is taken by a christmas tree.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/04/07 05:44 PM

You may have the gain control on the 500 turned up too high and the Denon is trying to compensate by setting it to -12.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/04/07 05:47 PM

Definitely a possibility,
However, I had the gain set at about 50% during the auto set up so I am not sure.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/04/07 05:55 PM

50% on the EP500 is still very loud, you could try it at a lower setting,25%, just to see what the Audyssey does.
Posted by: cgrface

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/04/07 06:41 PM

It seems that no matter how I configure settings on my EP600, or where I place it in my room, I always get -12 with Audyssey. It really tames bass for music which sometimes is appropriate, but sometimes, not. If I feel that I need to adjust to taste i.e. to -6 or so I have to go to "Manual" on my Denon because I can't stand the red Audyssey indicator on the front pannel when "Audyssey" settings are tampered with. That's just me though.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/04/07 08:22 PM

hmmm. when does the audyssey indicator turn red? I usually just click in the circular channel button on the remote and adjust the bass from there.
Posted by: michael_d

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/05/07 10:52 AM

It's at that level because that what it's supposed to do....balance ALL the channels. Until you verify with a SPL meter, all you are doing by changing that setting manually, is guessing.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/05/07 11:26 AM

This may not help you with Audyssey but it may help you with sub set-up.

I have an Epic80-600 and I've had one heck of a time getting "tight" bass in my 4,000 cubic foot room. I've been experimenting the last week and have found that by setting the cut-off in my Denon and on the 600 to 40Hz, I can achieve very tight bass. I also found that I had to turn the gain control on the 600 to about 7 o'clock and the gain on my Denon to 0. My previous settings were 10 o'clock, -7 on the LFE channel, 80Hz on the Denon and by-pass on the 600. The full setting works best for my case.

I find that when I turn the gain knob of the 600 up, the bass has too much "overhang" (technically called a long settling time). But I don't have the same problem if I turn the Denon's LFE gain up.

To really experience this tightness, I have to turn the main gain of the Denon up (over 20W/channel). This is extremely loud in my space and I can only do this when everyone is out. But with the previous sub configuration, even when I turned it up it wasn't tight. It was just more full.

Blending between the 600 and 80s is the same...astounding! However, I have lost some "transparency". Prior to doing this, string bass lines had their focal point in the front of my soundstage but nonetheless "floated all around me". Now, I don't have that "bass everywhere" feeling. This just convinces me even more that I can't have bass tight and transparent...at least not in my space.

By the way, this 40Hz setting is great for music and movies. I have found that in scenes like explosions and gunshots, the bass is not as full but it hits very hard...much harder than 80Hz. The criticism to this of course would be that I am missing some action from my QS8s between about 40Hz to 70Hz but I haven't found this to be a problem practically.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/05/07 11:43 AM

Tex, that is some very valuable analysis. Thank you.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/05/07 11:49 AM

That just means it's time to upgrade the Denon to a newer unit that allows multiple crossovers. I just saw Outlaw has the 970 PrePro/7125 Pwr Amp for $1385 delivered to my door(I was so close to buying it, but the sub must come first)

I just tried to get my sub to match up the M80s at the 40hz mark yesterday and I couldn't even get my sub to match the SPL! I had to increase the level in the receiver to do it and it sounded incredibly awful!

I could have swore I saw something about Santa Ian offering 20% off on the EP500 to those of us with such sucky subs;\)
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/05/07 01:37 PM

Yeah, Jason that's exactly what I was thinking too. I always thought that multiple x-overs were over-rated but now I think differently.

The problem with the 500 is that it wouldn't fit down your chimney \:\) .
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/05/07 01:39 PM

Hardly overrated. Yeah, I've got a somewhat strange setup, but I'm not crossing my M80s at 100 or 120 just so I can get bass from my surround channels (QS4s). Nor am I crossing my QS4s at 40 Hz and losing all the bass from those channels.

Gotta have multiple crossovers. I have no idea why more manufacturers have not implemented them.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/05/07 01:45 PM

 Originally Posted By: kcarlile

I have no idea why more manufacturers have not implemented them.


I think they all have them, but on their upper endish models to force us to pay more for other thngs we don't want. Eventually it will trickle down.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/05/07 01:47 PM

 Originally Posted By: Mojo
The problem with the 500 is that it wouldn't fit down your chimney \:\) .


If he can make it down my chimney then the 500 can too .
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/05/07 01:49 PM

I bought an SPL meter at lunch today and went and verified my audessey settings.

All speakers were at 75 db with the excepetion of my right surround. I lowered it half a decibel in the denon to acheive a 75 db reading on the spl meter.

The sub was set at 9 o'clock during the auto set up (and it still is)and the denon set it to -12db. With these settings the spl meter read between 75 and 77 db (it was fluctuating).

I feel better about the channel level calibrations that the denon produced (and the distances were spot on too.) But I still think I want to experiment with crossovers for the mains.

Right now the settings are how the denon put them- the surrounds are set to small with crossover at 80, the center is set to small with crossover at 40, and the mains are set to large.

The sub is set to LFE+main with the 'crossover' at 60 hz.

For 98% of my music the bass level is perfect at -12. When I want to give the sub a workout and show it off with a little rap or drum n' bass I can crank it up to -3 and man it is LOUD (and a bit boomy at that point).

However,I feel like I am missing some bass during action movies and games. I think I need to experiment with both the crossover and the sub placement. I was hoping for my couch to rumble during explosions, and right now it is not.

I need to find a good HD-DVD or DVD to test the LFE...
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/05/07 01:51 PM

I think you need to set the sub's crossover at or over the highest crossover for the channels, otherwise you might be missing that 60-80 Hz range on the surrounds. At least, that's how I have my H/K set up. Maybe I'm insane.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/05/07 01:56 PM

kcarlile, you mean to change it on the sub from bypass to 80hz?

I have seen some discussion on this in the forums but most have claimed it made little difference.

I would like to optimize things as much as possible but am somewhat apprensive about changing too many settings (like crossover, or the LFE+main, or large vs. small).

I also don't know if I have to adjust the crossover and other settings for each input or not.

I can have a different crossover for stereo mode vs. surround mode, but I do not know If changing the crossover under the HD DVD input also changes it for the DVD or xbox input...




Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/05/07 01:59 PM

No, the sub should be on bypass (afaik), but the sub's crossover in the setup you have listed is 60Hz, no? That's the one I mean.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/05/07 02:32 PM

No the LFE is set to LFE+Main with a crossover at 60 but the individual channels are set to surrounds - small and 80hz, center is small and 40hz(very odd here), and mains large which is where the LFE+mains at 60hz comes in.

terzaghi, I would change that center to something more like the surrounds, it is a VP series center right?
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/05/07 02:40 PM

I think the place that the LFE+ main crossover was at 60 hz was for stereo mode only now that I think of it.

I don't think it would make sense to have an option to set the subwoofer crossover when they have the option to set the crossover for each speaker.

and yes, the center is a vp150.

For some reason the audessey set it to 40 hz. Maybe some of the bass that could be directed to my sub in the 40-80 hz range is getting stuck comming through my center.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/05/07 02:44 PM

Ter,

My couch used to shake, rattle and roll when I had my 600 set to 80 Hz and by-pass (read my post on bass earlier today). But with the changes I've now made, I feel "punches" rather than "booms".

I'll give you an example. When watching LFODH's apartment shooting scene in the beginning, at 80Hz I heard a very "thick" rat-a-tat from the machine gun and what I felt was something boomy all over me and around me. But at 40Hz, I heard a totally realistic machine gun staccato and felt that sucker right in my left butt cheek through my leather couch \:\) . In the U-571 depth charge scene, at 80Hz my whole couch shakes. But at 40Hz, I feel the sharp impact of every blast. And when one of the charges at the start of the scene falls in the water, I very clearly hear the sound of water being displaced and then getting sucked in as the barrel submerges. Sort of like what you hear as you finish off a can-opener in the water. But with 80Hz, that subtle yet oh so cool effect vanishes.
Posted by: fillyv

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/06/07 04:18 PM

Man o man this site is naughty. I think i may go buy the Denon this weekend.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/06/07 04:47 PM

Has anybody used the Denon to stream audio (like FLAC files, especially) from a server? Is the GUI satisfying in that regard?
Posted by: michael_d

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/06/07 07:20 PM

Tom,

I was just messing with that a couple days ago. It seams to work fairly well. It sees any PC on the network and after I gave the Denon access, I was able to use the Denon to navigate through my music files and play what I want. It is pretty slow, but not too painfully so.... I only use Media player, so I can't comment on any of the other formats.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/06/07 07:41 PM

Cool, Mike. Does it let you compile (or access) playlists?
Posted by: Hansang

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/06/07 07:51 PM

 Originally Posted By: terzaghi
[snip]
However,I feel like I am missing some bass during action movies and games. I think I need to experiment with both the crossover and the sub placement. I was hoping for my couch to rumble during explosions, and right now it is not.

I need to find a good HD-DVD or DVD to test the LFE...


Keep in mind that you HD-DVD/Bluray may be at fault. My Marantz SR8001 cannot decode any HD audio. So I let XA2 and BDP1400 do the decoding (minus master audio) and shoot it out over PCM. Until recently, a but in XA2 *killed* LFE/BASS. Transformers was very weak. I fixed the XA2's config and the bass came back.

So keep in mind that all may be well with your setup, but the players may not be keeping up.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/06/07 11:10 PM

Hansang, What did you do to the XA2 to get the bass back?

I have a toshiba A2 and I am using bitsream for the audio I think.
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/06/07 11:29 PM

Yeah, Hansang, I'm curious, too? I have an XA2 and have been underwhelmed by the "Transformers" HD DVD. I've done the most recent upgrade and have also taken a look at the AVS thread.
Posted by: Murph

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/07/07 08:06 AM

Yes, Answer!! NOW!!
Sorry, just kidding, but I am curious.

I wish one of you sub experts would come over and tweak my system. I have my other speakers exactly where I want them but I am never satisfied with the sub. It rocks but I'm always tinkering.

I know its all mental so I don't need it to really sound better, I just have to trick my brain into thinking that it has been set up by an expert so it is CORRECT.

All the free lobster you can eat if you come in the spring or early summer!!! heh heh.
Posted by: michael_d

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/07/07 10:44 AM

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Cool, Mike. Does it let you compile (or access) playlists?


yes - access. not sure about creating.
Posted by: Hansang

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/07/07 12:19 PM

 Originally Posted By: terzaghi
Hansang, What did you do to the XA2 to get the bass back?
I have a toshiba A2 and I am using bitsream for the audio I think.


Unfortunately, it won't help you since you are using HDMI/bitstream. My SR8001 can't decode HD Audio so I use analog outs. I used to use HDMI/PCM, but bass/LFE was really lacking. I then switched out to analog output on the XA2 and analog inputs (AUX2) on my SR8001. Then did what it said in this first post:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=856083
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/07/07 03:59 PM

I am not sure that I am happy with the audyssey results for room eq.

I was just watching the eagles live from melbourne HD-DVD and with the audysey eq on, bass was almost not even noticeable.... Turning it to 'off' or 'bypass L/R' created a much fuller, deeper bass.

I think in an attempt to eliminate the boominess of bass the audessey has killed it completely...

anyone else experience this?

I think if I use the bypass l/r mode then I can still take advantage of the room eq for my center and surrounds, but the low end will not be eliminated from my tower speakers.

what do you guys think? maybe I should re-run the auto setup this weekened and see if I get better results.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/07/07 04:32 PM

Personnally I would set it up myself with an SPL meter as you seem to not like the settings it is giving you.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/07/07 07:41 PM

I am actually fine with most of the adjustements audyssey has made. The distances were right on, and all speakers were calibrated equally. I did adjust my right surround down 1/2 a db so that it would read 75db alog with the others. I am just not sure if I like the room eq adjustments, but those are easily disabled.

I may turn the gain down on my subwoofer and calibrate with an spl meter to get the sub at about 75 db when it is set at 0 instead of -12 db.

Someone at AVS suggested that may improve my bass with the audyssey eq, and that I could even run the audyssey settings again with the sub calibrated before hand.

i am not sure why any of that would make a difference, but I may give it a shot.

Things are sounding really good now. I popped in the 300 on HD DVD and watched about 5 minutes if it.

The WB intro scene had tons of LFE!



Posted by: JohnK

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/07/07 09:55 PM

T, you should consider that maybe bass "almost not even noticeable" is the way things should be, which Audyssey has recognized, but you want to hear more. As I've pointed out frequently, the sub isn't supposed to be audible as a separate entity; the impression should be that it isn't on, but the speakers are putting out more bass. It's quite frequent for subs to be run too "hot" because folks want to hear all that money they spent on them, but high fidelity implies a more natural balance. Again, however, the option is always there to turn it up a bit over the calibrated level.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/07/07 10:21 PM

I think the sub is running about the same whether the audyssey eq is on or off. I beleive it is the m80's that sound much thinner when the audyssey eq is on. When I put the audyssey eq on 'bypass L/R' They sound much more 'full'. I don't think this makes any changes to the sub at all

Now which one is right I don't know, but the m80's sound better to me with no audyssey equalization.

I may try and run the audessey set up agqain with my sub pre-calibrated as I mentioned... I still don't see how that could make a difference but who knows.
Posted by: michael_d

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/08/07 10:56 AM

Pull up the EQ graphs and tell us where Audysey put the FR bands for the mains. You may just need to bump up / down one of the bands to get the sound you want. It has my M80’s 6 db low at 62H. I raised them to 0 and it made a world of difference….to the better.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/08/07 02:04 PM

Exactly where do I need to go to look at this and what exactly am I looking for?'

I think I found the eq graphs at auto setup-> parameter check-> room eq or something along those lines.

I am not sure if this is what you are talking about, or what to look for from here.


The audyssey EQ curve shows a steep drop that looks like an upside down triangle from about 40 hz to 100 hz for the L/R mains. The peak of the triangle goes down to about -18db.

This can't be good can it?
Thanks,

T
Posted by: michael_d

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/08/07 05:17 PM

I’m not saying it’s good or bad. Audysey thinks that is what’s needed to produce a “like” FR from all speakers according to your particular room acoustics.

Why not try a manual setting? It can’t hurt anything as you can always revert back to the auto settings.

Just go into the manual set up, select “copy curve” and it will take you to the next screen where you can then raise / lower all nine bands at will. After you play with them, just toggle between your manual settings and the Audysey settings. I would start out with adjusting the mains first. Just take it in small steps so you can track the changes and see / hear the differences.

I found that with the Audesey settings, I felt as if the mid range was lacking. I bumped up the mains in the mid range and couldn’t be happier. That may be all you need to do.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/09/07 11:47 AM

The denon had my fronts set to -10db at the 63 Hz mark. I changed them both to -5db and noticed a significant improvement.

When I have more time I will do more comparison.

At this point the audessey curve has a lack of bass for most sources/types of music (it actually sounds pretty good on some of them), and turning off the audessey curve or bypassing the mains leaves the bass a little too boomy and in your face. I think I can find something in between that suits my tastes. With the 63 Hz set at -5db it seems ok, allthough I may adjust this a bit later when I find some more time for comparison.

Thanks,
T
Posted by: Hansang

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/10/07 10:10 PM

Damn...I can't make up my mind! I need to buy an AVR for my brother in law. It's either the Denon 3808 or Marantz 8002.

I have the 8001 now and like it, but I *hate* the fact that I have to take it in to a service center to get the FW upgraded. HDMI 1.3 (and various HD audio decode) being what it is, I'm *sure* upgrades will be required. That alone may tip it in the Denon's favor.

Feature set wise, I don't think I can go wrong with either unit. But since I've never owned a Denon, I'm going on reputation alone. That and reading every post on the AVS forum about the units. So far, there doesn't seem to be too many complaints. Damn, I hate being indecisive!
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/10/07 10:26 PM

Does the Marantz have the nice GUI that the Denon does? That alone makes me want the Denon.
Posted by: Hansang

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/12/07 12:35 AM

 Originally Posted By: jakewash
Does the Marantz have the nice GUI that the Denon does? That alone makes me want the Denon.


The OSD on the Marantz isn't too bad actually. It's all text based, with no ability to use http of telnet, but that's not huge deal for me. I work with routers and switches all day long so I'm quite happy/content/comfortable with command line interfaces (or rather text based menu's in this case)
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/12/07 05:05 AM

Text based gets the job done but the GUI has that factor.
Posted by: michael_d

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/12/07 11:08 AM

The Denon's GUI (graphic user interface) is overlaid onto the video stream without any interruption or degradation, at all. The Marantz has an OSD (on screen display) which is a seperate screen that comes up, but only after the source video stream is dropped. There is no comparison between the two and it’s not fair to try and do so. Denon has the market cornered on this right now. Yamaha has a GUI as well, but it isn’t as slick as Denon’s.

The Marantz, as I’ve noted earlier in this thread, is lacking channel independent X-over adjustment. That alone is a deal breaker for me. I had a heck of a time calibrating the LFE channel with the SR/8001 because of this.
Posted by: Murph

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/12/07 12:27 PM

 Originally Posted By: Hansang
I work with routers and switches all day long so I'm quite happy/content/comfortable with command line interfaces (or rather text based menu's in this case)


So what you realy mean then is that you are
::hap cont comf
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/14/07 09:32 AM

IS it best to take audessey recordings from random places in the room in addition to listening positions or strictly in listening positions?

Posted by: HomeDad

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/14/07 11:23 AM

It's best to take the measurements in the area where you will be listening, the manual gives a pretty good idea of where to place the mic so you will have optimum sound in any area that you sit rather than focusing on one position.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/18/07 04:51 PM

Any of you folks with this receiver tried the 'compressed audio restoration' feature? If so, what did you think?
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/19/07 05:24 AM

 Originally Posted By: jakewash
Any of you folks with this receiver tried the 'compressed audio restoration' feature? If so, what did you think?


I will guess no one has tried it?
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/19/07 08:54 AM

I heard about that feature but have not found it in the menu anywhere. I have tons of mp3's so when I get a chance I'll look up how to enable that feature and try it out.

May be a few days though.
Posted by: EFalardeau

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/19/07 09:04 AM

Isn't that something done automatically by any Burr-Brown based product? Actually, is Denon using Burr-Brown DAC? I know at some point Onkyo was reporting that as a feature but removed it from their lists once people went to Burr-Brown source and challenged the reality of this. It's been more than a year since I read something about this so the details are escaping me at the moment. Someone might want to check TI site.
Posted by: michael_d

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/19/07 11:31 AM

I use it for satellite feed. It works well. It doesn’t turn dirt to gold, but it does help.

It uses Burr Brown. Not sure which model number it uses, but they are not the latest and greatest. I think DAC’s are becoming over rated nowadays.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/27/07 04:58 PM

ok, I am trying to stream flac files to my 3808 from my pc. I have installed a plugin which allws windows media player to play flac files and they are now added in my music library.

I can see the flac files on my denon but when I press -> to play them nothing happens.

Any clue what I could be doing wrong?

has anyone streamed flac files to their denon yet? what method did you use?

thanks

T
Posted by: cameron

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/27/07 08:45 PM

I've been using Winamp to stream flac files for a long time now. I'm using the Chaintek (sp?) 710 sound card hooked up to my Panny receiver using optical digital out. The chaintek can be configured to 44.1, not 48k like most soundcards.

IMO Winamp is so much better because it's easier to configure everything how you want it. I have all the winamp functions programmed into my receiver remote so I have one remote to control everything. I never have to touch the computer to choose and listen to an album, see the album artwork, read the lyrics, watch a visualization etc.

Here are some screen shots of Winamp hooked up to my tv.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee292/carlhungus2/IMG_0618.jpg

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee292/carlhungus2/IMG_0619.jpg

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee292/carlhungus2/IMG_0709.jpg
Posted by: cameron

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/27/07 08:46 PM

Do the FLAC files play on your computer speakers and not the Denon?
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/27/07 09:57 PM

I can play the flac files on my computer no problem.

With windows media player I can 'share my library' with my denon. This allows me to search through my songs from the denon GUI and pick the ones I want to play. MP3's will play this way but the flac files won't.

Maybe 'streaming' is not what I am trying to do, but rather share my flac files with my denon so they can be played directly from the gui.

I do not want my computer to play the files simultaneously with the denon, I just want my computer to hold the files.

Is there anyway to accomplish this?
Posted by: cameron

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/27/07 10:46 PM

Ahhh I see. Here I am thinking I'm giving you cutting edge info, and you are acually way ahead of me! I didn't realize that receivers were capable of this... I may have to look at upgrading.

How do you like the GUI on the Denon? Is it easy to use? How does it look etc.?

So, Windows Media plays the Flac files but the Denon does not...does the manual say anything about only being able to play mp3's?
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/27/07 11:30 PM

yes, the denon manual says it plays flac files.

Windows media player does not natively play flac files. I had to download patch/hack for it to play flac files.

I was then able to add the flac files to my music library along with all of my mp3s. I went to library-> media sharing and made sure that wmp recognized the denon and that media sharing was enabled.

The denon can see the mp3 and flac files, but i can only play the mp3's. It does not recognize the flac files as a music file (even though wmp can play them with the patch.)

I think it may be due to the fact that wmp can not natively play flac files. maybe the patch i found only allowed it to play flac files and not share them properly.

Anyway, I need to either
a.) find out how to share flac files with wmp
or
b.) find some other media sharing software that will share flac files.

to answer your question the denon gui is very slick. I like it a lot.

Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/28/07 02:28 AM

I will second the GUI is very slick and I love the networking capability. I have been listening to many different internet radio stations directly through the 3808 and they sound much better than on my PC;\) It must be time to buy some Audiobytes too.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/30/07 12:12 AM

Well I bought a linksys wga45g wireless gaming adapter to use as a wireless bridge between my denon and my router. I had a heck of a time getting things up and running, but I now have access to all of the internet radio stations without running a giant ethernet cable down the hallway (which my girlfriend does not approve of).

I love having all of these stations at my fingertips.... select a genre, then select a different country if you want. MY only problem is going through the HUGE selection and finding ones that are actually worth filling up my 56 presets with.

I still have not successfully played a flac file on my denon over my network.... I was thinking about just putting all of my flac files on an external hd and plugging them into the usb port on the back of the denon.... this would let me play the flac files easily.

The only thing I don't like is the 1/2 second pause between songs when playing flac ( I was able to play some off of my usb thumb drive).... It is really annoying when listening to music such as a continuous mix techno cd, pink floyd, or a live concert.

I guess you could rip cd's like this all as one track to eliminate the gap, but then you could not select songs \:\(
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/30/07 08:40 PM

I just ripped some cd's into FLAC and played them flawlessly through the 3808. So it is possible. I do have the files on my Linksys NAS200 which sets up a media hub - pictures, video and music.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/30/07 11:47 PM

Did you play the flac files by selecting them from the denon GUI?

Were the flac files stored on your computer?

What exactly is a linksys NAS200?

Thanks!
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/31/07 02:59 AM

Yes, the Denon Gui shows what I have on the HDD and then plays away \:\). Files are on the Network Storage hard drive which is what the Linksys NAS200 is. The NAS200 is a little slow to write to but does what I bought it for..backing up and media files for streaming.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/31/07 12:00 PM

so does the linkysys nas200 have software which shares the flac files with your denon or are you using some other media sharing software?

I am trying to find some software that will let me share flac files and am having a hard time.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/31/07 05:56 PM

The NAS200 apparently has a built in media hub/server that allows music, pictures and video to be shared across the/your network. As the Denon shows up as another piece of the network it is allowed access to the files on the HDDs and the rest is music bliss. When I am looking at the network/internet radio input on the Denon the NETWORKHUB shows up in the GUI and I just slide through to the album/artists I want and then they start to play.

I will try adding the files to the WMP on my PC and see if I can still access them from there. I am at work right now so it will have to wait till much later tonight.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 12/31/07 06:03 PM

I can see both flac and mp3's from the denon GUI when using windows media player (I had to install a patch to be able to add flac files to my WMP library). The denon will only let me play the mp3's though, I think that is due to the fact the WMP does not natively support flac Like I mentioned above.

I wonder if the software used by the NAS200 can be downloaded and used without the NAS200....
Posted by: chapin99

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/01/08 09:56 AM

Hi, all. I have a denon 3808 question or three and would love some help if you have time. First, I have two speakers on my patio that I've been using for outdoor listening for years. With my old yamaha rx-v2600 I had those designated as "speaker b" and would simply push "speaker b" and release "speaker a" at the unit in order to play any of my sources (xm on directv, cd, etc.). Well, I now have a 7.1 channel system (just also got my M80s to replace M22i's for front channels - can I just say my rega turntable never revealed so much!!!!!! So very happy with this one part of my purchases!), so have M80s, QS8s, EP500 (also new - of course will pay for new toys in the coming years, but enjoy them everyday!) and now m22is for surround backs. I wired the outdoor speakers to "surround b" on the denon. So, how do I access surround b? I'm scared to mess with too much since I did have a fiasco of firmware updating and the directions are hard to understand. I just wish to activate that set to run when I'm outside. Any ideas? Now - question 2:

I love multichannel hi-rez. I have thoroughly enjoyed more than ever the Beatles Love DVD-A. But, I am not having success in listening to multichannel SACDs. I do have an oppo 981hd and I run both the hdmi cable and the analog rcas to the denon. My surround keeps showing up as stereo and I can't seem to resolve this. And, if I change the input assignment stuff, will I always have to come back and change it again for dvd-a's or regular dvds? Again, any and all help will be appreciated. Third question:

How have I lived without these M80s so long? I just think the sound is stunning, particularly on vinyl. Y'all have a great day and a wonderful new year! Thanks in advance for any help.
Laura
Posted by: EFalardeau

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/01/08 10:08 AM

 Originally Posted By: chapin99
I do have an oppo 981hd and I run both the hdmi cable and the analog rcas to the denon. My surround keeps showing up as stereo and I can't seem to resolve this.


Are you passing the multi-channel on the HDMI? If so, then make sure your player is set to output at least 720p on the video side (it actually happened to me by accident yesterday and I wasted a good hour on this!). Hi-res multi-channel is passed alongside the video, so you need a higher setting to accomodate the signals.

If the audio is passed through analog, check the "down-mix" section of the Oppo; you will probably also need to setup an "alternate audio" source in the Denon (I don't have one, so I am not certain how they handle multiple audio sources for one video feed).

M80s are great, aren't they? \:\)
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/01/08 12:04 PM

I don't have a Denon, but I imagine that you'll have to look for a multi-room button or menu entry to activate your Zone 2 (speaker B) speakers.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/01/08 12:25 PM

I have never actually tried it but here is how I think it should work based on my experience with the denon and remote so far. on the remote keep pressing the amp button (the one on the lit up part of the remote)a couple of times until zone 2 shows up. click the 'on' button located at the bottom of the lit up screen.

Pick the source you want.

Some where you may need to designate surround b as zone 2, but I am not sure exactly where that happens.
Posted by: chapin99

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/01/08 05:35 PM

Thanks to all three of you for the help. I will try these things and appreciate your taking the time. And, yes the M80s are beyond my greatest expectations. I had been making tweaks to the rega (counterweight for the common (wo)man, big ole acrylic platter and new cart and nice setup of everything), but never heard how great this table could sound. I still have the klipsch la scalas and heresy's hooked in to my simultaneous quad system, but can't imagine listening to stereo through anything but M80s. Wow! In the event I ever win the lottery or in the next 5 years (whichever comes first) I plan to try the A1400 type setup suggested here and available through axiom. I've finally found the center of my system and it is AXIOM! The Denon is a wonderful complement - just been a beast to make sense of since I've had yami's for the past two decades and bought from a crappy vendor who made me wait too long and lied each step - so put a small taint on the purchase, but the longer it sits in my house, the more I'm loving it. This site has been a godsend for finding out what matches what and I'm glad I chose to stay with axioms and go from there (perilously close to starting from scratch and trying other brands!). So, thanks a bunch for the help.
Laura
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/01/08 08:53 PM

Holy Smokes, we actually help people!!!!! I thought we just confused them even more\:D
Posted by: Ray3

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/01/08 09:37 PM

I am about to reveal my lack of techno-testosterone.

I am getting a 3808 and the network connection has my interest piqued. I had considered the 4308 but the price difference for wireless, 10 more WPC and another HDMI output wasn't working for me.

Anyhow, I WAS able to set up a wireless network in my house (router on 2nd floor, home theater in basement)recently with some very specialized help. (I'm sure my children won't mind that I sold their souls when they realize that it meant better connectivity for me).

In researching the 3808, I saw that it can be networked, but like terzaghi, there was no way a network cable is going to snake all the way to the basement; not that that would make me a bad person. Then I saw T's discussion about a "wireless bridge". A possible solution??

Could some kind soul please give me the 5 simple steps in non-techno babble for making my non-wireless 3808 become wireless using this bridge thing? Unfortunately, I have no children left to give you, but I DID just start a thread on some software available to use to do your 3808 settings on your PC.

Ray
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/01/08 09:51 PM

I purchased a linksys WGA54g wireless gaming adapter.

I plugged the linksys WGA54G into my computer (actually I plugged it into my router directly with an ethernet cable) and ran the installation cd on my computer.

It configures the router for you. You have to insert your WEP key from your wireless network if you have one. THe WGA54G supports WEP security only (not WPA).

After running the setup to configure my router I took it into my livingroom and put it next to my denon. I ran a short etherenet cable (which was provided with the WGA54g) to my denon.

Now in theory everything should have worked at this point but for some reason I had trouble. I hooked the WGA54g up to my xbox 360 and selected my wifi network and entered the WEP key from my 360. Then I hooked it back up to my denon and it worked fine. I think I did not get it configured properly with the setup disk for some reason.

I think the linksys 'access point' WAP54g would work as well, but I found the WGA54g to do the job just fine and it was cheaper. (I paid $69 at best buy... prolly could get it cheaper online but I had a gift card)

It was a little tricky getting everything set up but I have not lost my connection once since it I got it up and running. I have access to my computer media and internet radio.

Linksys has pretty good customer support too.
Posted by: Ray3

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/03/08 03:06 PM

Thanks T,

Looks like a bit of a problem since I am using WPA.
Posted by: Supermann

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/03/08 03:38 PM

First of all, Happy New Year. I would like to thank everyone in this forum. It really helped made my decision to go for the Denon. I always been ONKYO person. But, with all the read, I decided to buy my 1st Denon 3808 from JR, by taking you guys advice from here. I bought it by calling JR directly and was able to save $300 from MSRP no tax to Cali. Man it sounds so good in music and movies. It brings out the best out of my Axiom speakers (7.2 M80, QS8, VP150, and M22). 3808 drives my M80 easily with the dynamic sound that I've been missing. The base on my subs. sound so real and very tight. After all, it was the right AV for Axiom speakers. DENON is very good match with AXIOM. I returned my Onkyo 805.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/03/08 03:55 PM

Ray, the WAP54G supports both WPA and WEP security, but it was about $90 at best buy. You could likely get it cheaper form amazon or somewhere online. You should be able to configure it the same way as the gaming adapter though.

Another option would be to change your router to WEP security mode instead. That is assuming that all of your wireless devices and of course your router support WEP... I Think most do but I am no network expert.

I only looked at linksys products when deciding what to buy because I have a linksys router. I wanted to keep them the same to help with compatibility, but mainly so that I could call one customer support center if I needed to trouble shoot things during the install.

I am sure there are several other devices that will work as a wireless access point or bridge.

I think the slight hassle of getting the wireless set up through an access point far outweighs paying the $1k difference for the 4308. Unless of course you want 1 more hdmi port and 10 more lousy watts.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/04/08 05:09 AM

I wonder if the USB port could be used for a USB wireless adapter? I think I read somewhere it won't work for this but I thought I might bring it up in case someone else knows for sure.
Posted by: Supermann

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/04/08 10:33 AM

Shock. If interested to upgrade to new firmware (Ver 01.57.Just found out there is a firmware upgrade for 3808. Link below to denon homepage.

http://usa.denon.com/AVR-3808CIFirmwareUpdate-Web1128.pdf
Posted by: chapin99

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/04/08 07:02 PM

Hi, all.
I'm back again with continued questions on the one issue I'm currently trying to understand (on the denon 3808). I wanted to listen to a "zone 2" on patio speakers (just 2) outside. I have the 7.1 hookup with rear backs (now my m22s). I understand now that analog is what has to be passed - meaning hooking up rca cables (which I was hoping to get rid of). Anyway, I'll do that if necessary, but here is the answer I got from Denon which makes me think it will be impossible even with rca cables. I'd like to listen outside (never at the same time as the 7.1 setup so could just use whatever source is selected for the main listening area) so I'd be glad to change the main area to 5.1 in the options in order to do two channel outside but there is not such offering as to powering the speakers. Here is his reply: Go into the menu go to manual setup than go to option setup go to poweramp assignment change it to zone 2. Rewire the speaker wires to surround back amp assign. The surround b is not like a speaker a & b they are for biamping purposes. For the zone 2 control make sure that anything going in digital you will need to run rca cables the receiver does not down convert digital signals.

Can anyone help? So the speaker surround b's are only for bi-wiring and are otherwise not useable? I have my rear backs wired into rear backs on the denon, not surround b (that is where I hooked up speakers from outside). Am I understanding right? My yamaha had the speaker b ability, so when I saw all the jacks, didn't think twice about ordering the denon assuming I could use them like I needed to.

Now, while I have you here, may I throw in one more observation? I have noticed that my directv 10-250 is for some reason now when the system is being turned on, deciding to set itself to 480 when my current channel is clearly hd and in 1080. I've literally watched the light move to that reading on the 10-250. I then have to manually move it up to 1080 (just involved hitting a button on the remote). Is this the denon doing something perhaps? I have it on auto on the scaling and resolution settings. My tv is 1080p samsung led dlp. Didn't notice this in the past, but its what you get when you change up a bunch of stuff at one time I guess. Anyway, curious if anyone has had this or is it a direct snafu just corresponding to my new purchases? Thanks in advance for helping if you can on these things.
Laura (quadgirl)
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/04/08 07:13 PM

OK, have a look at page 1-9 of your manual. This appears to be what you want. Ignore the Surround-B speakers; this is not (as your respondant described) for bi-wiring, it's for when you want to use 2 different kinds of side surrounds: one for music, one for movies. Denons have had this feature for awhile--some people prefer to use monopole speakers for multi-channel music listening.

If you're running the zone-2 speakers with the Denon itself, you don't need to run analog cables outside. However, you will not be able to listen to digital sources on zone-2; you will need to run a pair of analog cables from your CD player in addition to the digital connection, for example. This is because it treats zone-2 as a completely different system; you can play different sources on zone-2 from the primary room. You can also play the same thing.
Posted by: chapin99

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/04/08 07:46 PM

Wow - that was quick! Well, the problem is that I only have the surround B jacks on the denon left after wiring my QS8s to surround A jacks and my 22s to the rear back. It may be that zone two can only be done from those rear back jacks and if so I wouldn't be able to use the rear backs in the 7.1 setup. I guess if I wired rear backs to surround b it would work, but am concerned the audessy setup wouldn't catch that they are rear and not side. Still seems like I should have a bit more flexibility. Oh thanks for clarifying - I do get that I'd just wire rcas from directv, cd, etc. to get the outside sound via analog. That was a surprise, however. I sure try to do things the best way and am just hesitant to assign rear backs to surround (and I just bought and spent so much time on all that speaker wire for the back channels since I thought I'd really like having them! ugh!). But, I don't want to lose the ability to hear tunes while on the patio. I just hoped there would be a way. Any suggestions? Are other receivers in this range as finicky about this particular use (speaker b)? I have a tough time settling for less, but maybe have to decide what's most important and give up on something. HHHMMMM! All suggestions/ideas would be appreciated. The receiver is just one week old to me today, so wish to love it more. Why can't everything be as easy as buying Axioms?!
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/04/08 07:57 PM

Yeah, you're pretty much stuck. Pretty much nothing in this class uses speaker B. What Speaker B is (as we're describing it) is actually just like hooking up 2 sets of speakers up to the front amps. So if you've got M80s in both places, you would be presenting a 2 ohm load to the amp. Not a good idea (no matter what Mojo keeps doing to his poor Denon). Personally, I use a separate receiver for my Zone 2, fed from the Zone 2 outs on my H/K. This of course means that I have to connect them using analog cables, but my setup allowed for that. All I had to do was punch a couple holes in the wall and put in some RCA wall plates.

Of course, since you've got speaker wire run already, how about just hooking up a little integrated amp or receiver to those Zone 2 analog outs on the Denon, setting the second receiver next to it, and hooking up the exterior speakers to that? It's kind of a kludge, but it would get you what you're looking for.
Posted by: Ray3

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/04/08 08:23 PM

T - thanks. That's pretty much where it looks like I will end up.

As far as the USB question is concerned - I can plug in a hard drive and get at music. That's about it. I'd like to get at internet radio and jpegs, so I'd like the wireless bridge solution - just more robust.

Also, there is a USB port on the front and another on the back. If using one, you can't use the other. Easily solved by using a hub though.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/04/08 10:14 PM

Laura, as Ken indicated, the reply you got from Denon was incorrect on the surround B option. Ken described it correctly.

You only have seven separate channels available and if you use the back surround channels for back surround speakers you can't use them for zone 2 speakers at the same time. Also, wiring the back surround speakers to the surround B terminals doesn't work right since the surround B output is side surround material, not back surround.
Posted by: chapin99

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/05/08 09:58 AM

Thanks Ken and John. I'll have to do some pondering. I should post a pic of my system where you'll see I've exhausted places to put stuff. I have a 61 inch tv, below it is the denon on the left and two directv hd-dvr's (one on top of the other, but fans on the hr-20 since it runs hot), then the shelf below has a monster sansui 9001 (big and wide) with my buffalo bridge thingy next to it and one hi-rez pioneer dvd player with one panamax setup to the right of the 9001, then sitting on the floor beneath those are a 200 and 300 disc cd-changers daisy chained. To the left of that video type lovan furniture is a short rack with a rega tt on top, an oppo 981 under it, and next shelf has a cd-4 demodulator(for quad), a bellari phono amp, one dbx snr1 (noise reduction for front quad channels), then below that is an akai cr80dss quad 8 track player, next shelf is the other snr-r for rears and a technics Q8 player, and sitting on the floor (unfortunately, but they work) are two dbx 400 switcher boxes (again for quad sources). Whew!! And to fill out the room, to either side are the beautiful awesome M80s which are then flanked by klipsch la scalas (used with sansui and quad sources) with the left la scala having a marantz quad tt atop it! I guess if I had accessible pics, they would have been worth a thousand words! Sorry for the overload. So, as you can see, I would have had no problem adding another receiver or whatever and actually have a yamaha receiver in the attic that came just before hdmi. But space is always the problem. What are your opinions on the benefits of 7.1 as opposed to 5.1? I wonder if I should just carry a boom box outside, but it was fun having people over and listening to xm or whatever through attached outdoor speakers. Decisions, decisions! Thanks again for continued input. While I'm having a hard time adapting, it is good to know that there are not any comparably priced receivers that would do what I want. And I do know the denon sounds wonderful with the axioms. I just hope I wasn't penny wise and pound foolish and maybe should have saved up to buy the 4308 model or something. Of course, it may not do this either. Anyway, thanks for letting me enjoy the discussion.
Laura
Posted by: michael_d

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/05/08 05:00 PM

Laura,

If you use wish to use the second, and / or third zone on the Denon, you will have to come up with some work arounds. If you have a 7.1 speaker array, the secondary zones can not be used without going into menu every time you wish to use them and change the surround back channel configuration to “off”. I’m not sure, but there may be a discrete IR command to do this, and if there is, you could program this as a “macro” with a programmable remote. As I do not use the second zone, I can not give you a definitive answer if this is possible or not.

The 3808 is not alone with this limitation. All receivers with multiple zone capabilities utilize the surround back channel to drive the other zones. You will have to pony up and spend some more coin on a true multi zone processor for independent zone configuration, and I’m not even sure if one exists. I briefly read some literature on the new McIntosh line and they may have the ability to do what you are looking for. Plan to spend no less than ten grand for a McIntosh processor though.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/07/08 02:16 PM

Just do what Ken said and get a small integrated amp to drive Zone 2 from the RCA outputs on the back of the Denon.

Oh, Ray, just run some damn Cat5. \:\)
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/08/08 12:51 AM

not sure if this has already been mentioned but thought I would say this:

I encourage everyone with the 3808 to check out denonradio.com

it is a neat way to organize your internet radiofavorites and browse through denon's list of 10,000+ stations. You can cruise through them all a lot faster than on the GUI and even see the stream quaility.

Also, you can add the URL of any radio station that is not on their list.

I added a few favorites and got a message saying that it could take up to one day for the stations to show up on my denon. The stations showed up on my denon GUI in less then a minute!
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/08/08 01:09 AM

T, actually that's radiodenon rather than denonradio . An excellent site that I use for internet music listening whenever I'm at the computer is Classical Webcast .
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/08/08 01:36 AM

Thanks for the correction.

I now have the monumental task of sorting through all of the internet radio stations in the world to come up with a list of favorites. I added a list of top 40 stations that were 128 kb/s(mostly for my girlfriend), and some trance stations from germany just for fun.

Also, I finally got TVersity to work with my denon to stream my flac files from my computer to the denon. It is working great now. The flac files sound exactly the same as the cd (with the exception of the 1/2 second pause between tracks from the stream.) Much better then the mp3's I was streaming with windows media player!
Posted by: Murph

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/08/08 09:24 AM

A admit I had to Wiki Trance music.
..........
Trance is a style of electronic music that developed in the 1990s. Trance music is generally characterized by a tempo of between 130 and 160 BPM, featuring repeating melodic synthesizer phrases, and a musical form that builds up and down throughout a track.
...........

Not sure I'd like it but I am intrigued to give it a try. Do you have any online samples I can listen to. Legal, of course \:\)
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/08/08 09:57 AM

I think trance originated in germany, and it is hybrid of 'dance' and 'techno'.... not sure where the 'r' in trance comes from though.
try these:

http://www.rss-one.com/show-web-radio-42.html
http://radiotime.com/station/s_49585/1ClubFM_Trance.aspx

I listen to it usually when running/working out/cleaning
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/08/08 02:33 PM

T - I am really interested in your TVersity experience. My understanding is that software is commercial with a free trial period. Is that right?

I've been trying to work out streaming to a Wii or to a DirecTV HD20 and it sounds like the same technical architecture, albeit with a different interface. Are you satisfied with the Denon GUI for this purpose? Playlists work okay?
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/08/08 04:40 PM

Tversity is completely free for home use. They just ask that you purchase a license if you intend on using it for comercial purposes. I don't think there are any differences in the home or commerical version either.

The denon GUI looks very slick and works great for most everything. However, browsing through your playlist on the denon can be a little slow at times. Once you get the main remote figured out (or program a different one) you learn how to do it a little quicker. The denon also has the option of scrolling up or down page by page through your playlist, which speeds things up a bit (the way you do this on the main remote is kind of odd though). You can also search by letter... so if you are browsing by artist and want to look at the artists that start with a 'D' you can do so.

I am just starting my flac collection so I do not have tons of flac files to sort through. I do have a ton of mp3's though.

Anyway, to sum things up TVerstiy works great for sharing media. The denon works great for accessing the flac files on my computer, and allowing me to play them with the main denon remote. The only thing I don't like is the fact that navigating through your media on the denon be seem slow at times. However, it is all there and it all plays great \:\)
I have used the 360 for this in the past and like how you can hold down the right trigger to scroll REALLY fast.... there is no fast scrolling with the denon. However, the xbox 360 does not support flac files and the denon does \:\)

There may be hardware that let you surf through your playlist faster then the denon, but I feel no desire to upgrade to anything else. The denon will play all of my flac files with no problem.

Check out this getting started FAQ for TVerstity. It talks about setting it up with your wii:

http://tversity.com/support/quickstart/
Posted by: Ray3

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/08/08 05:27 PM

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
T - I am really interested in your TVersity experience. My understanding is that software is commercial with a free trial period. Is that right?

I've been trying to work out streaming to a Wii or to a DirecTV HD20 and it sounds like the same technical architecture, albeit with a different interface. Are you satisfied with the Denon GUI for this purpose? Playlists work okay?


Tom - based on some excellent advice I just got, you might consider just using some CAT 5.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/08/08 05:35 PM

Thanks, T. Very much.

Ray, I've already got the cable plant covered, thanks ;\) My challenges relate to which software to use on the server side (WMP, TVersity, Winamp Mobile, others?) and which user front-end might be easiest/best for the other users in the house (a new Denon 3808CI, the Wii, the DirecTV box, Winamp on a computer monitor, etc.). It's nice to have options.

I'm not seriously considering the Wii, because then I would be using it's wireless connection rather than the existing copper, and also because then I would be using the D/A converters in the Wii. I am seriously exploring the DirecTV box as an option, though.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/08/08 05:38 PM

WMP works great as a media server, but it has limits in the type of files it can share.

It can not share or play flac files natively. You can install a patch that allows you to play flac files, but I don't think it's possible to share them with your network.

The xbox 360 is great, but as I mentioned it does not support flac. They did recently add DivX support which is cool for video streaming/sharing.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/08/08 08:09 PM

The patch I used for WMP does let it share the files,I am at work and can't remember which one I used, but I have become a fan of winamp, it has a nice GUI and does everything I need it to for the rest of the families requirements.
Posted by: Ray3

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/10/08 01:13 PM

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Thanks, T. Very much.

Ray, I've already got the cable plant covered, thanks ;\) My challenges relate to which software to use on the server side (WMP, TVersity, Winamp Mobile, others?) and which user front-end might be easiest/best for the other users in the house (a new Denon 3808CI, the Wii, the DirecTV box, Winamp on a computer monitor, etc.). It's nice to have options.

I'm not seriously considering the Wii, because then I would be using it's wireless connection rather than the existing copper, and also because then I would be using the D/A converters in the Wii. I am seriously exploring the DirecTV box as an option, though.


You are way beyond my thought processes on this. I am prety much settled in on a 3808 (its on the way) and setting it up with a wireless bridge.

My Wii can see my network, but I haven't figured how to get out onto the internet with it. I believe I may have to go into the Shopping Channel and "buy" Opera for $5. Once I figure that out, I need to find out if I can use some type of wireless keyboard/mouse with the Wii.

You also mentioned using the DirecTv box. Hadn't considered it and don't know what you mean - can I get some detail? I have an H20 and an HR-20.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/10/08 02:06 PM

Ray, for your Wii, you are correct in that you have to download Opera for 500 Wii points which you buy from the channel 100points = $1. As far as the keyboard, the Wii will now accept a USB keyboard so any one of the wireless ones with the USB dongle should work. I haven't tried one yet but I have hooked up my wired USB keyboard and it works, but it is still way easier to surf with the PC.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/10/08 07:58 PM

Apparently, the Wii Internet Channel (Opera browser) was free for a while. Neener neener.

I've only tried to web surf on the Wii without a keyboard, so I don't do it much. I might have to pick up a wireless keyboard and see if that makes the prospect viable, or at least more flavorful.

As to networking the HR20, I used this handy thread at dbstalk. Short version is that there was a few clicks to update the HR20 and then a couple things to do on the PC. I've only done the PC stuff in Windows Media Player, but I think I'm going to try TVersity instead. I'm really just getting started, so I don't honestly know yet if this is going to be worth the effort. Another advantage of putting the HR20 on your network is that you can get (beta) DirecTV On Demand. The downloads are ridiculously slow, but there was some content available that I wouldn't have watched otherwise.
Posted by: skyhawk669

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/10/08 08:09 PM

The Wii opera browser is actually pretty good (I think it works better than the browser on the ps3), but text doesn't look so good in 480p on my hd tv...
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Denon 3808CI – one week later - 01/10/08 10:03 PM

Opera was free until last June then it was a 500 point download. The keyboard only makes it easier to type into the Wii's pop up keyboard instead of pointing and clicking with the Wiimote. I haven't found any other uses for it yet, then again I haven't hooked it up since I found out about the keyboard capability.