Hi everyone,

I am trying to build my first home theater and I need some opinions from you people that are more experienced than me.

I have been listening to some speakers (not many but some …) from Infinity, Energy, Polk and Klipsch. I find myself liking more dynamic speakers like Polk and Klipsch over Infinity and Energy. I auditioned the Klipsch RF-82 and the Polk RTiA7 side by side. Both are nice speakers, but I thought the RF-82 were slightly lacking of mid-range compared to the RTiA7 and even the bass was not really there which really surprised me considering the 2 x 8’’ woofers so I think that it might have been something wrong with the setup and will go back to listen again. On the other hand, I just loved the 82’s high frequencies and the dynamics and soundstage that it creates. They envelop you and make the music come to life. They are really good speakers.

Going back to my HT, I am trying to build a system under $3000 that would be good for 2ch stereo listening as well as HT. I listen to pretty much any type of music (Rap, RnB, Techno, Rock, Orchestra…) and would probably use the speakers for 60% movies / 40% music. Right now I live in an apartment but am moving to my new home in March. My room will then be 20’’x 11’’ with hardwood floor, no furniture except the couches and a coffee table.
The front towers that I like the most will determine which system I will get. Here are the 2 systems that I am considering:
1) Klipsch: 2 x RF-82, 1x RC-62, 2 x RS-52
2) Axiom: 2 x M80, 1 x VP150, 2 x QS8

For the subs, I was considering the RW-12D for Klipsch and EP350 for Axiom, however I noticed that both Klipsch and Axiom owners like to pair their system with other brand subs like HSU and SVS as they say you get more for the money. Any recommendation on a sub of $700 or less better that the 2 mentioned?

I also haven’t decided on the receiver. Any suggestions (if possible < $700)?

The M80s are 4 ohms vs 8 ohms for the 82s. Does that change anything sound wise? Does it mean that I need less power to drive them or more?

Is it fair to compare the M80s to the RF-82s or should they be more compared to the RF-63s (in terms of quality of sound, not looks)

I like much more the look of the Klipsch over the Axiom but sound has nothing to do with looks. I have read nothing but good reviews on the Axioms, that they have very good highs and lows and excellent mids. For the Klipsch, the only negatives that I read are how they sound harsh and bright, and how they lack a little bit of mids. Personally I like the way the horns sound very much (maybe because I only listened for an hour or so) so I disagree with the first comment, but I kind of agree about the mids (at least for the 82s).

Will the M80 provide the same dynamic feel and wide sound stage as the 82 do but with more detailed mids and lows?
Why do you think the M80s are better than the RF-82s? (except the fact that some people find them harsh which I don't)

The ultimate test will be for me to listen to the Axiom and eventually I will. However it will be very hard, at least for me, to compare them if they are not side by side. The 82s already sound good to me, what if the Axiom also sound good to me, how can I remember which one sounds better !?!?

Also, I only listened to the 82s in stereo, how will the center and surrounds compare?

I know that this is a Axiom forum and obviously lot of people will favor Axiom, but I am looking for honest and truthful opinions of people that possibly owned or heard both and picked one over the other and why.

Thank you very much for your help.

Bruno

Hi Bruno, I just bought the M80, QS8, and VP150 setup, and while I haven't received them yet, I was lucky enough to audition them beforehand. I think these speakers have a great soundstage and are definately solid on highs, mids, and lows.

When I was receiver hunting, and it was between the Pioneer 92TXH and the Denon 3808CI, I was listening through some large Klipsch tower speakers (can't remember the model #) at Best Buy. I do have to say that they sounded better than the Def Tech setup they had there surprisingly. But after listening to the Axioms, they definately appealed more to my ears.

By the way, if you're looking for a $700 sub, you may want to check out the MFW-15 woofer on av123's site. It's gotten great reviews. I'll be setting mine up soon, so I'll be sure include my opinion about it along with my M80 review. Just a warning though, it took me over 2 months to get it due to backorder from such high demand.

As far as receivers, I know that Yamaha has the v663 for around $600.

The EP350v3 is an excellent sub, with what is also said to be a very good bang for the buck.

The M80s are nothing short of incredible. If at all possible, though, you should try and find someone who can do an audition for you.

Personally, I never liked the "horn" type tweeters in the Klipsch speakers. Well, maybe back in the 80's metal days.

As you stated in your post, the Klipsch has a VERY different sound than most speakers because of the horn tweeter. For me, it's way too harsh a sound, and I do tire of it after about 30 mins of listening.

The M80s will sound very different than the Klipschs. If you like the Klipsch sound, you will not get it with the Axioms. Having heard both, I prefer the Axiom sound. In addition to having clearer (not brighter) highs, I feel the Axioms dominate most speakers in the mid-range frequencies.

Since you live in Canada, the return shipping to Axiom should be cheaper if you audition them and don't like them. There's a thread in the forum of people who will let you listen to their system. There must be someone in the Toronto area.

Bruno - I can't speak for the M80's but I do own their M3ti's with a sub. I have auditioned Klipsch RF 52 and will confirm their midrange is not as well defined as my Axioms. Although the horn tweeter does allow for a wider dispersion, in no way is it as prestine and smooth as Axiom's (all of Axiom speakers share the same tweeter technology). In my opinion, it's going to be the midrange where Axiom will beat the Klipsch hands down. My M3's are bookshelves of course, but the Axiom sound is something I'm going to live with for a long time. Regarding the AVR question, you won't go wrong the Denon, HK, NAD or Outlaw.

Bruno. Generally speaking, what sounds best in a speaker to most people is one with a flat frequency response across the spectrum. If you look at the M80s, they are +-3db from 36Hz to 22kHz and if you look more closely, they are actually +-2db from about 150Hz to 22kHz. The latter means that you get very accurate (much better than average) reproduction of sound through the mids and highs.

To add to what I posted about the mids on audioholics, I have found the reproduction of acoustic guitar to be exceptional on the M80s. Clapton's Unplugged is a very well recorded disc and the guitar is just incredible when played on the M80s.

As to soundstage, properly set up (as I listened to them at Axiom) the M80 system will give you an incredibly enveloping experience. Probably a little better than the Klipsch. Horns tend to have a narrower dispersion of sound leading to more off axis dropoff. I believe that gives you a smaller sweet spot.

Subs are more difficult. There have been a lot of advances in this area over the last few years that have really re-defined the top end and made this the most competitive area of HT.

Unfortunately, it is rather costly to bring a sub in from someone like HSU because you have to deal with cross border shipping and duties. You can probably add $200 to the sub for shipping and duties. I ended up going with the EP350 and its great for music. If it went down into the low 20s I think it would be a hands down winner in its category.

From what others have posted here, for subs like the SVS PB12nsd you trade off accuracy (music) for rumble/thump (movies). Mine is a music first system so that was the clincher for me.

As I suggested on audioholics, audition the M80s, and if you like what you hear, arrange to compare them to the Klipsch in home.

good luck in your search

The 350V3 from what I read, would be where I would be looking for subs in that price range. However, there is a place (electronis for less) in Toronto the sells the HSU VTF3-MK2, this is where I got mine.

Fred, thanks for the reply, it is very helpful.

Also, I am not too familiar with the technical aspect. You mention an accuracy of 3db from 36Hz to 22kHz and 2db from 150Hz to 22Khz.
Is it accuracy to how the material was recorded or accuracy to how it should sound?
Also +-3db? how can I understand that? is it volume related?
Which frequencies do you consider being the lows, the mids, and the highs?
Sorry but I am new to this and I am not really aware of the terminology.

As for the sub, I have read in this forum a lot of people talking about the MFW15 but I haven't read a comparison to the EP350, I am curious to read a review of someone that would have it matched with the M80s, how do they sound together?
You mentioned the EP350 being great for music, how does it stand for movies? (I would be doing 60/70% HT)

Bruno

Thanks, I'll check that out.

Can't speak for the 350s, but I have 2 500s and the room shakes when it needs to (and they sit on the concrete foundation, on spikes).

Fred,

May I ask which receiver are you using to drive the M80s?

Yes. If you had +-0db it would sound exactly like what was recorded.

If you were to play a series of tones across the spectrum at exactly 85db, then a speaker with +-3db would not play any given tone at more than 88db and no less than 82db.


I'm going from memory here, but I believe that bass is anything below around 200hz, midrange goes from there to 2.5khz and anything above is trebble. I'm probably off on the numbers slightly but you get the idea.

Audioholics has a lot of very good articles that cover this kind of stuff in their learning area.

Its really hard to say exactly how good the MFW is in reality. As an example, if you go by the specs and what people say about the SVS ultra, it blows away the EP600, but from people who have done direct comparisons, the differences are quite subtle. I do not know of anyone who has done a direct comparison.

I expect that there are other subs out there in that price range that will do better than the EP350 for movies because they are able to produce sound effectes down to or below 20Hz. The PB12nsd is an example of that. The trade off is clarity for music. I drove myself crazy for a while, but ended up going for the EP350 for a music first system.

Electronics for less no longer carry HSU, but do now carry SVS products. Since they are in Toronto there is no shipping involved in you trying one of their subs.

Hope this helps some.

They haven't updated their website then...of course on clearance.. HSU

Yikes, their clearance price for the old version is more than HSU charges for the current one! Dosn't seem like much of a good deal to me.

Are you talking about a DVD or a CD? I need some well recorded music in my libaray

I suddenly have that problem as well! I have the Unplugged CD.

The one Genesis disc I have listened to - Trick of the Tail - is also well recorded. Just picked up Selling England by the pound, but havn't listened to it yet.

There must be a list of well recorded music out there somewhere.

Fred, thanks again.
All of this make a little more sens to me now.
Are most of the people able to hear the flatness of a speaker (+-3db vs +- 5db)? I am just wondering because I think I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Maybe my hearing is not that accurate

As for the receiver, the Denon 3808CI seems really nice but a little bit pricey for me? It seems that most of the Denon and Yamaha in the $700 price range don't support 4 ohms impedance. How come this is not popular?

Anyway, thanks everybody for your input, this is a great community

bdpf, this is the thing, and what makes speaker auditioning somewhat dangerous--sometimes an inaccurate speaker will grab your attention. Why? Because it calls attention to itself. That's why sales guys usually crank up the bass in the showrooms. It's attention grabbing, no matter how bad it sounds.

The problem is, over time this heavy bass, or other over-accentuated frequency, may get tiring to your ears. That's why I like to spend as much time as possible with new speakers.

Also, most speakers we come across, car stereo, clock radio, boomboxes, have some kind of distortion that we've trained our ears to accept as normal. Sometimes, when we hear a well-balanced speaker, our ears may not like the sound right away because they are used to the other, potentially, cruddy speakers.

keep in mind you can buy the 3808 from 6ave.om for $1100 with tax AND shipping.

Hi Bruno

I currently own the Energy Veritas 2.3s, Veritas 2.0 center and a pair of Axiom QS8s for surrounds, and an Energy 10" sub. My rig is Anthem AVM20 powered by Anthem MC20 and Adcom GFA7400.

Not so long ago, I was intent on replacing my Veritas 2.3 mains because I felt like they really lacked bass. The highs are excellent and the mids are truly amazing, especially on female vocals, but their twin 6.5" drivers did not produce enough bass I thought, I love bass and lot's of it.. but not at the detriment of the other frequencies, in short, I'm very picky and I want it all in spades.

Because I'm talking specifically of bass here, I auditioned the RF82s but was thinking more about the RF83s.

After my audition of the RF82s, I was quite disapointed. And I must tell you that I am ok with the Klipsch sound, I've had a pair of Promedia 4.1s and now 5.1s playing my computer tunes since the very first set were sold in my city.

I came away with the following impressions of the RF82.

The highs were to harsh, screechy, peircing etc..
The mids wore non existent.. remember my Veritas truly excelled in mids.

And most surprisingly, the bass was really not that good at all.. it was not tight and not " visceral " like was I was expecting.

In the end, I moved my Veritas to another room in the house (they were in the basement) and was completely blown away by their bass output.. so, it was not the speakers after all, but the room acoustics.. which is also very important, in fact I would dare say it's KEY to getting really good sound from ANY speakers.

I've sinced made some acoustic corrections with bass traps and absorbers (it's still a work in progress !) and my Veritas sound quite good now in my basement. Good enough that I don't feel like selling them to get " bigger speakers" for more bass.

I have never heard the Axiom M80s, but some people have compared them to my Veritas 2.3s, which cost much more than the M80s.

As an aside, my cousin is also builing a HT room / system from scracth and I am totaly getting him to buy a full Axiom kit.. M80s, VP150, QS8s and EP500.

I know they will sound amazing.. and I can't wait to here them.

Cheers,

Riker

I'm glad I could help bfp. Not so long ago I was the one asking questions. What you can and can't hear is not that strait forward. If it is a very short spike over a narrow freqency range, you are much less likely to hear it than if it is a spike or dip over a wider range, say from 100-200 hz (from what I have read anyway). Some people claim to be able to hear differences of 1db. For whatever reason, the industry has taken to quoting the +-3db range.

I expect any Denon would be able to handle 4ohms. For some reason, some companys who's receivers are known to handle 4ohm loads say they don't. Denon, Harmon Karden, Sherwood Newcastle, Maranz; these are all receivers that should handle 4ohms just fine. Yamaha is hit and miss. Some models are fine, some are not.

Too true, but a call to the store and you can work out a better price. Or at least you should be able to as I did when I bought mine for much less from them.

Hi Riker,

Glad to hear some input from someone that heard the RF-82. I also thought that the mids were lacking but also thought that the bass was somewhat OK.



When your cousin will get his system, let me know how it compares to yours.

Cheers,

Bruno

Hi Bruno,

I will certainly let you know once I setup my cousin's place. It's going to be exiting researching, implementing and configuring the entire HT room from scratch.

the biggest challenge is the projector and screen.. I know TVs a lot more than projectors, but the good people here already gave me a lot of good advice.

I am very curious to see how the M80s sound vs my Energy Veritas 2.3s. I will bet that they both sound amazing, but in a different way..

Cheers,

Stephane

Where did you see that, I went to their website and it's $1699 and I am not really sure of the shipping cost to Canada.

Just call 6th Ave., ask for pricing on the 3808CI and tell them you got the info from AVS Forums. You'll get the $1100 price.

Thanks