I don't know how many of you are familiar with Skiing Ninja products, but their new website is up and he's released a Ninja Master crossover for the M22.

I've heard some speakers with ninja crossovers in them and was very impressed. Check it out.

http://www.skiingninja.com

But did you hear the speakers with the stock crossovers before? Was there enough improvement to warrant the price of another speaker for a set of crossovers?

It does seem like a fun project to do.

I like the Axiom sound, just as it is.

I heard the Onix Rocket RSC200 in both original (signature) and ninja forms, but not side by side. I thought the ninja version had better clarity and a smoother frequency response, but I don't know if I could say what I think about value there. I don't own one due to lack of space, but that particular center is the best in their lineup and this made it better. Some will spend to accomplish that and some won't.

As for the Reference 1's, I DID hear them side by side with the stock version, and the difference was phenomenal. The imaging was better, the bass more tightly controlled, the overall response much more linear, and the slight "edge" that the vifa tweeters can have was totally gone. The detail was still there, but so much more open and effortless. The ref 1's are a little overpriced as new, IMO, but can be found used in the $500 range, and I wouldn't hesitate to add the upgraded xo to that. Absolute no brainer.

The reality is that for some, a speaker upgrade is a more logical and cost effective choice, but for some it is not a possibility. If you have M22's and no space for towers where do you go when you get the upgrade bug? If you go towers, it probably makes more sense to look at M60's or something like that, but some don't want to. An example is one of the new projects detailed on their website. The Paradigm Studio 20 is a nice speaker, but not a bargain. I wouldn't buy one and then add a $400 crossover network to it. For those who have and love studio 20's of any generation, and don't want anything bigger, however, it may make sense to do. I have Rocket RS450's (which I prefer to the Studio 20's for $300 less) and could upgrade to RS760's or RS850's or something like that, but I don't want a larger footprint AND I don't need additional volume, so I will likely do the upgrade eventually. (other priorities are higher at the moment)

I don't have any affiliation with these people btw. I just heard the results of the product and was really impressed. They're on my shopping list, so to speak, so I've bought in.

I also think that the axiom sound is amazing as is. If there was enough improvement to be had by changing the crossover in my m80's then I think axiom would put out an M80 v3...

All companies make compromises for price at various points. The reality is that only very high end speakers will have top shelf components in the crossover networks.

People spend big money on IC's and Speaker cables to get the last ounce of performance from their speakers. Why not crossovers?

Like I said, not everybody wants to put more money into their speakers to get the last bit of performance, but the existence of an upgraded crossover doesn't necessarily mean there's something wrong with your M22's. I like my Rocket RS450's just fine (admittedly a very different voicing than Axiom products) but I'm going to save up and get the ninja master crossovers because I don't want a larger speaker in the space that I have to work with.

Naturally, when some people try the ninja m22 and post comments about them it will be easier to know what to expect from the investment. I'll admit I'm fairly curious myself.

Thanks for the input woofersus, I have never heard the vifa tweeter ever described as having an edge and if the XO took even more off of the vifa, I think I wouldn't like the result on the M22, but I am still intrigued enough to order a set anyway, just to see for myself, only problem is I am in the same financial situation as you, no more toys for awhile, hmmmm.......Christmas is coming though....

I guess I should qualify that statement by saying I've only heard vifa's in a couple of situations. I don't think my rockets are bright or fatiguing in any way (generally referred to as laid back speakers anyway) but the reference series is a brighter sound, and many found the Reference 1's to be a little fatiguing. I thought that the culprit was a touch of sibilance at certain frequencies. It's probably not the vifa x25's fault at all. In any case, they smoothed right out with the new networks.

I'm certainly interested in your impressions if you do order a set. I may be breaking out my soldering iron around Christmas as well. Need to get an amp to complete my 2.1 setup for my studio before I upgrade anything I've already got.

I think it's kind of funny that people want to deconstruct "systems" in this way.

I agree Tom, this little snake oil product will not make an m22 perform better than a tower like the m60 or m80's. Any difference would defeat the whole engineering concept of the original product. If people want to waste money on these little gadgets, useless expensive wire, I guess they have more time/money to burn than I do.

Several years ago a tweaker posted, asking Ian whether "quality" caps, inductors, etc. in the crossover wouldn't be of major benefit. Ian responded that much research had been done on crossover components and that the ones selected met specs and provided for optimum performance; no "upgrade" was needed.

These products, at over half the cost of the speakers themselves, seem absurdly expensive. They appear to be intended to appeal to those with an insatiable urge to tweak in an increasingly untweakable audio world.

I can't imagine wanting to change the sound of my M22's.

Hi all. I run the aforementioned snake oil business I can understand the trepidation. I'm not interested in little gadgets, useless expensive wire or clever little clocks. We just do what we love - make great sound. Axiom makes great speakers but as with anything, they can be improved. It's the same with pretty much anything. Look at the automotive performance aftermarket. Heck, even the Ferrari Enzo has an upgraded twin, the FXX.

To show you guys that we are not a bunch of quacks trying to rip you off, I will give a Ninja Master set of networks to whomever here you all choose. They can install them into their speakers and report what they hear (good, bad, indifferent).

What do you all think?

To be clear, if you love your speakers, don't change them. If you want a bit more out of them, that is where we come in...

Ask questions, be skeptical - you should! This company exists as much to educate and have fun as it does being an actual business. Check out the 'about us' on the website. It gives you a little insight.

Finally, if you all or Axiom does not want me posting here, just say so and I will kick my own a*s out

The Ninja
skiingninja.com

Personally, I would love to participate in a blind listening test comparing a modded M22 vs a stock M22. Does your crossover mod change the crossover slope or frequencies at all? If it does, then, naturally, it will affect the sound of the speaker in a way that some people might prefer. But you don't need expensive components to modify the slope or crossover points.

Oh, and about you posting here, as long as you don't act like a shill and keep things civil, I think we'd all agree that you're welcome to argue your point of view.

pmbuko,

I used to moderate the AV123 forum and I bounced those that were shilly and just plain mean so you don't worry about that sort of behavior from me.

The crossover is a completely new design from the ground up. The components used in the 'Ninja' version are excellent without being stupid expensive. We could not, unfortunately, reuse anything from the original network however.

Ninja

Great idea to give one out for the first test, ninja!

Along those lines, I would suggest that you fine folks select somebody who lives near to several other members. The more people that hear it and comment, the better an idea everybody else will have as to what the consensus opinion is.

*watching with interest*

Who has 22s? I don't.

Ninja, I was not trying to imply that your products are snake oil products, however, as you know there are many such items out on the market.

It is a strange coincedance that you magically appeared, hmmm Woof must be on the affiliate program with your company.

Us as forum members will not be able to decide if this communication is appropriate, only Axiom can make this decision. I would recommened either you or Woof send Amie a PM.

Yeah, I kinda though you magically appeared too!

Regardless, I think we should find somebody who is willing to try these things out.

Who wants to volunteer?

If the Ninja will give me M22's and his upgrade kit, I'm in.

I have M22s, and I'd be comfortable swapping out the crossovers, however I don't have a great way to test before and after.

Well, I have not just "magically appeared" and though I've never met the man, am not a "friend," and have had no contact with him since May," I am very familiar with this particular gentleman's creations.

First and foremost, based on my limited experience with, and knowledge of, the man, he is a decent, honest guy. Also, IMHO, he is NOT a snake oil salesman. That doesn't mean you would like or appreciate what his alterations bring to the table, but it DOES mean he, though a little nuts , is the real deal and not a scam artist.

He has been making and supplying "upgraded" parts for many of AV123's speakers with great success. I have installed his reworked crossovers (or were those Danny Richie's? Regardless, they were not Ninja models) on my front and center speakers (Rockets) and, IMHO, there was a noticeable improvement. This result has piqued my interest in his ninja offerings for my speakers (regrettably, my pocketbook is currently un-pique-able ).

In the interest of fair disclosure, it should be noted that the Ninja is a former AV123 employee. I wish to emphasize the word "FORMER." He departed of his own volition, in order to foster his entrepreneurial bent by forming his Skiing Ninja company. I was only aware of the presence of this thread because I received several PMs, from long standing Axiom forum members, mentioning it.

Should Ian and/or Amie object to all or any of this, it is certainly within their right to remove this thread. Should they opt to do so, I would understand and support their decision. I only hope that such a decision would not be based on the erroneous belief that the Ninja is a scammer. He is not.

Good point Peter... To give a more serious answer than my last one, if this happens, like was suggested earlier, it's probably best to ship them to someone who lives near a group of Axiomites so that a comparison of original versus modified could be done (and by more than one person).

No magic involved - it is called email I received several emails about this thread so I stopped by.

As for the assumptions made in this thread such as someone being on a non-existent affiliate program, I must ask where you come up with this stuff BTW - if you want to see my affiliate program, please note this page on our website: Linky. The page only exists because the CMS has an affiliate program built in.

Sounds great to me. Make it a big party...

For the record, I have no affiliation with skiing ninja, nor have I personally met him. I posted this because he noted to us on the av123 forums that his new website was up, and I thought you all might like to know about the m22 upgrade.

My intent was not so much to evangelize as to notify. I have no stake whatsoever in whether or not you guys like the product. I just heard them and liked them myself and thought others might too.

Too bad we're talking M22s and not M60s.

I don't seem to have anyone near me but I'd throw my modded 60s in the Odyssey and meet many in some more popular location!

You'd think I live in the boonies for the number of Axiomites near me!

Before JP comments, I'll beat him to the punch and question whether or not I've showered today!

Everyone in the Midwest has M60's or M80's. If anyone does contribute your Axiom Warranty would no longer apply, just an fyi.

Jack, I was not talking about you.

Ninja,

Thank you for your nice comments on our products. We do go to extensive lengths to make them perfect and it is always nice when that is appreciated. I don’t know what sort of part changes you are making to your modified M22 x-overs but changing the x-over design, and being able to hear a difference, means that you have affected the amplitude response. If you want to send some of your x-overs here for testing I would be happy to measure the before and after amplitude response in our anechoic chamber and conduct a proper double blind listening test. I can post the results of both here.

Don't mind sirquack. He doesn't even give us regulars the benefit of the doubt.

Now that's the way to do it. Thanks for offering to do this, Ian. I hope Ninja takes you up on it!

Yes. That would be very intesresting indeed.

I know that, Randy. No offense meant by my comment.

Hmm, I may have to fly up to Dwight for the show.

Ian, have the leaves started changing yet? If not, when will they? I vote that you do the test then! I might be able to persuade the wife to take a trip up there so that I could participate in the test.

Even though I mentioned the foliage in New England to you only yesterday???

::: As usual, Runs Away Crying ::::::

Wasn't "Runs Away Crying" the biggest hit single from Negative Orange's third album?

Har har. It was their ONLY single from that album.

I am up for the mod if the Ninja is willing to ship them up to me, I am sure I could convince a few of the Axiom regulars around here to GTG for some testing, but it would not be anywhere near the level of testing Ian would do. Nothing more scientific than the processes Mojo and I have used in the past.

I was also wondering if a before and after graph could be posted on Skiing Ninja's website, more specifically the FR graph on axis as he seems to be able to do the graphs, but has not posted that graph.

Medic8r,

So far there only hints of the change but I am sure it is coming soon. The peak is normally around the last week of September. That would be great if you could be in on the blind listening test.

Ian,

Great to hear from you. I trust you got the note I sent to Brent about this thread.

I've love to get some networks in your hands. Please email me at sean@skiingninja.com and we can set it up!

A quick word to all - there are many ways of making the collection of parts we call speakers do their thing. I hold the highest respect for the engineers that tackle the considerable challenge of making a great loudspeaker. I never consider someone else's design 'wrong' and mine 'right' - they are just different ways of solving a problem - and there are many 'right' ways...

Ninja

A fall get together at Axiom for some interesting blind listening tests? I would be up for that! I would also love to see some measurements of the two crossovers.

From all the reading I have done over the last few months, better seems to be a very subjective thing.

Blind listening tests with some people who know what they are doing would be an exceptional learning experience.

Wow. Ian just continues to show integrity and class above and beyond what could rightfully be expected.

There are lots of regulars whose opinions I trust. I hope some can be involved.

I trust they got our PM's.

You might want to specify to Medic8r that it is a blind and MUTE listening test!

LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA LA

Fredk,

I will post the amplitude response graphs once the measurements are complete. After that we can pick a date for the blind listening test. I am sure Alan will be around for the listening part; it should fun.

Ian, thanks! Not sure what the chance is that I'd be able to take you up on the offer, but I am intrigued. It'd be nice to see where my speakers came from, since I missed the picnic you guys had a while back.

I have vacation time coming as well.

Hey guys, if you can make it up, you would be visiting one of the most beautiful parts of Ontario at a very nice time of year. Axiom is minutes from one of the crown jewels in the Canadian parks system. I don't know if either of your families are into hiking or canoing, but you would be in spitting distance of phenomenal opportunities for either.

Ian, I think its really cool that you are willing to do this!

My family loves to hike and canoe! I wouldn't have trouble getting vacation time. Only the cost of gas (for a long road trip) or airfare prevent me form jumping on this opportunity. Damn house with stuff that has to be fixed!

I don't know, but I bet CV has the stained pillow to prove it.


What? He said it was from tears. . .




(sorry, charles, that was a cheap shot)

The Ninja,

Welcome to the forum. Did you change the crossover frequencies of the M22 with your crossover?

Ian's suggestion is the only one that would achieve meaningful results. As Peter pointed out and Ian confirmed, changes in factors such as slope, crossover frequency and relative woofer/tweeter levels in the crossover can definitely change the sound of a speaker, not necessarily for the better. If these products result in such changes, rather than simply substituting so-called "quality" components which don't change the crossover parameters, then there of course could be some noticeable change in the sound.

I think this is cool. I don't even think a big fancy test is necessary. Ian has ears. I bet he is the kind of guy who would admit right away if they sound better. If they do sound better then what? Raise the price of the M22's ? I don't think that is a good idea. Sell more M22's because they sound really awesome for only 470 bucks and if you want them to sound more awesome then call this Ninja guy. Symbiotic relationship?
The best part about this is the fun factor. Speakers are fun. Listening to music is fun. Science and discovery are fun. Fellowship in all this silly stuff is fun.

Cliff notes: Ian is a cool dude.

Ian and the whole Axiom group is why I bought from them. After 2 years on the surrounds, and 1 year on the rest, I have absolutely no regrets.

And, this board is better than any T-shirt!

Plus, we don't shrink when you wash us!








Unless you use really cold water.

No, lampy; a "big fancy test" would be absolutely necessary, including lab measurements to determine what changes were being made in the crossover and blind listening tests to determine if there were any resulting audible differences and if so, were they preferred.

One of the foundations of Axiom, developed at the NRC when Dr. Toole worked with Ian, Alan and other colleagues, was the necessity of blind listening since you simply can't "Just trust your ears" when other factors are present which can affect your judgment. In an intentional bit of hyperbole, Dr. Toole, when speaking to an AES meeting a few years ago stated that "If you can see what you're listening to, then you can't hear it!"

At these prices, I can afford a lot more abuse.

I'm excited to see how this all plays out. Two people standing behind their products is pretty cool. Everyone wins.

Agreed, Axiom could have easily gotten defensive and said, "hey you tinkerer, get off my boards!"

But then of course, they wouldn't be Axiom. Thanks for participating Ian, it's always fun to see your posts pop up here. I too am looking forward to the results (the bigger and fancier the test the better)

Jason

Indeed...kudos to both Ian and The Ninja for being civil and playing nice...count me in for being VERY interested in seeing how this turns out!

This is going to be fun.

/Me: Subscribes to this thread....

So are we taking bets as to whether or not we'll see M22 V3's in 2 or 3 months from now?

Careful. They might be called v2xi and you would lose!

With a substantial price increase at the prices the ninja networks cost. I would guess Ian would just authorize the networks to be used in Axiom products if he likes what they do, or at the very least, feels they are built well enough to not cause the drivers any problems for warranty purposes.

I would tend to agree. Crossover components this expensive aren't really part of axiom's design philosophy. I would bet that either nothing will come of it, and you can go buy stuff at skiing ninja if you want, or if Ian is really impressed maybe there will be some sort of agreement worked out such that ninja master crossovers are designed for more axiom products and they cross market for each other in some way. Maybe he'd send some M80's Sean's way and have them ninjafied. It will ultimately just be another choice for everybody.

Merely copying the design would put the m22's in a different price class. You can easily enough figure out the cap values and buy the stuff yourself. You'll find the markup isn't that big. Axiom, like every other speaker manufacturer, aims at price points when designing speakers. Going no-holds-barred with the crossover for every speaker would in all likelihood be detrimental to their overall business model.

In my opinion, the thing that would be making the difference would be the crossover design, not the crossover components. As Ian said, the components they use are well within the rated spec.

What would be even more interesting than testing an M22 before and after the mod would be testing the skiing ninja crossover mod against a mod with the same electrical specs as Axiom would build it -- e.g. without the expensive parts.

That certainly is a comparison worth making, and perhaps Ian and/or the ninja could make that happen. However, there are several mods created for AV123 products that are not a new design, but simply upgraded parts and a layout optimized to reduce crosstalk. There are a variety of before/after comparo's of them floating around on the AV123 forums. If anybody living near to very many of you had some of those, then a comparison of those might be interesting too, especially since it won't be a speaker that everybody here is already intimately familiar with.

The redesigned networks would certainly be a more dramatic change than the ones with only upgraded components, but how much change each makes is certainly a question worth asking.

Frankly, I'm considering getting ninja mods for my RS450's and I haven't had an opportunity to hear them so I'd be going solely on what other people have said as well. I've only heard the ninja modified RS750's, RSC200, and Ref 1's.

"The Ninja" is starting to make me chuckle a little.

Get prepared for a crescendo...

I'm imagining a bunch of guys in a warehouse "sound lab". Some are wearing TMNT shirts. Some also have turtle shells on their backs. One is going for the Snake Eyes look and has borrowed his girlfriend's Mom's black panty hose to complete the ensemble. In between bites of Domino's pizza and Cheetos, they swig Mountain Dew. They debate the big issues in life: Kirk or Picard. Mac or PC.

As they move between their audio stations, they tiptoe silently in truest ninja style. They slice the air with their plastic swords.

Then, at the end of the day, they apparently go skiing.

Wow, that is the exact same thing that comes to my mind!

Strange minds think alike.

Uncle Woofersus (Rico) We also need some way to make us look official, like we got all the answers.
Skiing Kip (Ninja) - How bout some gold bracelets?
Uncle Woofersus (Rico) - We need like some name tags with our picture on it, all laminated and what not. I mean, we gotta look legit man.
Skiing Kip (Ninja) - That's true, that's true.

A few days later....Skiing Kip (Ninja) - Well, that place was a rip off.

Stranger minds. Well...

I'm glad that at least I'm Rico and not Kip. I'd be a football star if I could just go back in time...

I'm training to be a cage fighter. Just try to hit me, ninja!

Since when?? You have the worst reflexes of all time.

Who needs relfexes when you fill the whole cage? My money is on JP the Hut.

It's on. My money is on Princess Leia and her kick-a$$ outfit :P

She is pretty handy with a chain.

I have the M22v2 with the upgrade from the Ninja. I must admit that I did not listen to these speakers without the upgrade very long, therefore can't give a detailed comparison. The upgraded speakers do sound a bit warmer with a nice balance across the spectrum. I am driving them with an Outlaw Retro and LFM-1 plus sub. As an aside, the Ninja has been a great guy to work with. I look forward to any formal testing info. Later.

Welcome to the forum.

So what was it that made you want to change out the M22s original XO?

sales 101 :0_

Sorry I've been gone for a few days; Mrs. Ninja (aka the wife) has West Nile virus so I have been taking care of her.

sirquack,

jskink contacted me and I developed the upgrade then - not the other way around

Not a problem, hope the wife is ok, that is a nasty virus. We like it when newbies magically appear on our board.

Meh, this is worst than watching midnight TV infomercials.

Its always hard to tell the liars and shills from the real deal. The language is pretty much the same.

Skiing ninja has contacted Axiom directly, a real deal move, and we should see some measurements out of this to let us know exactly what the product does.

Actually, a few of us PM'd Axiom.

Yes, and thanks for that!

fredk , I see your point ... but it's not rocket science to figure out what would happen when those measurements are out . Most likely there would be a difference in the freq curve and the Ninja dude would say: told'ya my curve sounds better. It's like someone start tweaking with your HT EQ and then tell you his setting sounds better **it's subjective**. I'm going to call that ninja dude products BS, mainly because he's charging $250+ for relatively cheap crossovers components.
** Flame on***

It's Go Time!

Hey, Ken, pass me the popcorn, willya?

Meh... Tweeking yes, but hardly worth getting your nickers in a knot over. Sorry, no flame here, I flamed out over the ex. Little stuff like this isn't worth the agrivation.

Something tells me Skiing Ninja won't be contacting you any time soon with a pitch.

Tom, pass the popcorn.

I'm hoarding the popcorn.

Mo-om!!! Ken's hogging the popcorn again. . . *huff*

Mom, Ken took all the butter......

Nah, I hate buttered popcorn. I just didn't put any on. Just some salt, maybe some parmesan.

hmmm parmesan cheese! interesting, going to try it next time I pop some popcorn at home... is it freshly grated?

As the sound of *om nom nom nom* emanates from Ken's cubicle at work, his boss wonders what internet debate his employee is spectating this time.

Why is it that some folks insist that everyone is trying to screw them? I have seen no evidence that that is occurring here.

It's been a very long time since I've done that, so no...

I guess that Jump To Conclusions Mat™ went to market, after all.

Ken's obviously trying to screw us out of our share of the popcorn.

You don't deserve the popcorn!

I made some more popcorn and I will share.

Dang!

yeah, my wife owns one ... I borrow it from time to time

An aftermarket internet vendor of cross over modifications takes the time to develop a cross over network using premium components for Axiom speakers. No long time member has auditioned any modified Axiom speaker.

Nevertheless, without the benefit of any information, other than a post by a newbie and another by the owner of Ninja, the Axiom mob has gathered to welcome Ninja Skiing.

The Ninja guy says he'll send some of his cross-overs to Ian, and Ian graciously agrees to give the man's efforts a fair hearing and the mob laughs.

By and large, this website has become a rude forum for anyone who does not share the consensus audio opinions - cabling makes no difference, speaker wire, interconnects, terminations, no difference, all solid state amplifiers sound the same, tube output audio devices are "distortion generators," (thanks Alan for that one), frequency response curves tell you everything you need to know about whether a speaker is worth listening to, recognized high quality capacitors and resistors used in cross-over networks have no appreciable effect on sound quality, etc.

"I can't imagine why anone would want to change the sound of my M22's." Axiom speakers are terrific. I own them, I recommend them. But, sit down folks, they are not the best sounding speakers available. They may be among the best for the price, but the absolute best? No.

Among the differences between Axioms and the best in class is the relative quality of components - drivers, cross over network design, caps and resistors used in the networks, drivers, tweeters, cabinet design, voicing, etc.

So, here comes Ninja, who has taken the trouble to massage some Axioms with a new x-over network, and ... what can you say? You should be proud of the welcome you have given him.

Maybe his x-over efforts result in a better sounding Axiom speaker, maybe his efforts have no appreciable effect on SQ, maybe worse, but instead of waiting to hear any results of his efforts, you mock him. Snake Oil!!

The Axiom orthodoxy of John K, KCarlie, and pmbuko and others has evolved into a brittle, nasty voice and threaten to turn this site into a hostile forum.

It's nice to know that someone who has honored Axiom speakers by developing a new x-over network and offering aftermarket upgrades to Ian for testing, has received such a fair hearing.

He may be surprised by the reception he has received. Enjoy your popcorn. As for me - I'm looking forward to hearing more about your efforts Ninja.

Hold grudges much?

Let it go. Tube output audio devices do introduce distortion. That's a fact. It's whether you like it or not that's up for debate. Me? In my limited experience with tube amps, I rather like it.

yeah, ditto on the let go on the distortion bit, 2x6. With that out the way, I have to say I agree with you that some here -- if you actually bother to count the people, it's only a few and not the mob/majority you claim -- have treated Skiing Ninja less than kindly, especially given his forthrightness and willingness to put his products to the ultimate test.

Skepticism AND willingness to challenge your currently-held beliefs are the hallmark of a healthy world citizen.

Now thats just not fair. While the majority of people here are in the 'wires, AVRs etc. don't make much/any difference' I have not seen any rudeness when those opinions are expressed. No personal attacks, your an (insert favourite insult here), no belitteling others.

All in all, people express their opinions respectfully. This thread is probably the most edgy since I have started posting here.

Sit back and relax. Lets see what results Ian's testing brings.

Now, where's that **@!!* popcorn.

Comon 2x6, this is a forum where people expose ideas and opinions. I wrote my opinion and it should be taken for what it is, just my opinion. Ya’ know, that’s the risk of trying to advertise products in online forums… you may run into some bone-head like me shooting from the hip.
Having said that, I exposed my reason why I called the ninja dude product BS even before Ian’s measurements. The Ninja is in a win-win situation. If there’s no measurable difference (which I think is unlikely), he doesn’t really win but he doesn’t lose either. Now, if there’s in fact a measurable difference, the ninja dude won, regardless of what Ian and/or Alan points might be regarding crossover linearity (or lack thereof). Of course, Ian might say that the Ninja has a killer product… then and only then I’ll have to eat my words :-)

Hey, where is Klipsch dude? Doesn't he know this is the happening place to be today?

Hey, I made the crap list! Yay!

I believe a certain presidential candidate has trademarked that phrase. I'd consider changing it lest he sick his pitbull on you.

Dunno what you said there but as long as it's the pitbull with lipstick it's all good

Utterly humorless and disappointing tirade, 2x6. You could have used your time and considerable skill to eloquently and positively espouse the idea under consideration instead of attacking people.

I was researching bookshelf speakers (I haven't got the space for bigger floor speakers) and I read about the speakers that Ninja modified and won a bookshelf speaker shootout. I was impressed and decided to investigate the Ninja. I contacted him and he was amenable to putting together an upgrade for the M22s.

I've never seen advertising for the Ninja. Only reviews of his upgrades.

I neglected to call you out on this particularly threadbare barb earlier. Looking specifically at my posts in this thread, please identify how I have contributed any alleged hostility of this forum. You, archnemesis of doubt, are operating with old data.

Gone to the dark side, he has. Sad, it is, Darth Archnemisii.

Or was that "Arrr, that be sad"?

I have a pair of Michaura M55s, a beautiful speaker which used 2 Axiom 5.25" drivers and the Merak/old M0/M1 3/4" titanium tweeters. Joe V used to say about the 3/4" tweeter that it was "bullet proof" and they could have stayed with it instead of the 1" Ti tweeter which Axiom now uses. The cabinet is a hex shaped, internally braced thing of beauty, somewhat smaller than the M22 despite the similarity of their driver kits. The x-over was a simple affair, consisting of a circuit board, fuse, ceramic resistor, and a low end cap.

I swapped back and forth between a pair of M3Tis and these M55s. Both speakers integrated beautifully with a Velodyne 10" sub. The mids were a bit 'richer' with the M3s, but the mid-highs and up were so beautifully extended and pure that I ended up using the M55s with my 5 watt per channel single end triode distortion generating integrated amplifier. The soundstage extended far beyond the speaker location for both the M3s and M55s.

Both speakers suffered from a little (but noticeable) graininess. I removed the fuse, isolated and damped the circuit board, replaced the ceramic resistors with some Mills in one pair and Caddocks in another, and the caps with Jensen foil/oil units. I used silver internal speaker wire, and added additional damping to the cabinet.

The sound quality improved. The graininess disappeared. the Sound Stage, large as it was, became huge - wider, higher and deeper. I finally experienced from my system what some refer to as the "wall of sound."

I don't know whether the Ninja folk have improved on the M22s or not. But, if I improved the sound of a pair of M22 analogs by simply upgrading x-over components while retaining the Axiom design and, of course, x-over component values, it certainly would not shock me if the Ninja redesigned x-over using upgraded parts improved the sound quality of the M22s.

I also have a pair of M22s but prefer the modified M55s to these excellent speakers. I don't know how the Ninja folks "voiced" their x-over, whether they used their ears, frequency plots or both. But, if I had to bet, I'd say the Ninja modified M22s are an improvement.

I 'stole' my M55s from U-bid back when you could get ridiculous deals on audio equipment. I spent more on the replacement capacitors than I did for the speakers themselves. I don't know if the cost of the modifications justify the results, for most folks, but I'm good with them.

Just a heads up.

_______________

BTW, I used an Ah! Njoe Tjoeb tube output CDP with upgrades, Mapleshade Clearview Double Golden Helix Plus speaker wires and high end snake oil Maple Audio interconnects for all A-B comparisons.

Ahhh, now that wasn't so hard, was it?

Actually, I emailed Axiom to inform Ian of the thread. Here is a snip from the email.

Hi Brent. I would like to purchase the single speaker as noted below. Please find my payment and shipping information attached.

Also, can you please let Ian or Amie know about this thread on your forum:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=220404#Post220404

If they would rather I not participate in discussions on your forum, please let me know and I will cease. I just love great sound and extracting the most out of things from speakers to cars to computers

Please ask any questions you may have.

Thank you,

The Ninja

http://www.SkiingNinja.com
sean@skiingninja.com

Jamie - check out the retail price of everything that goes into our networks. Don't forget the 7 meters of wiring and all the other little stuff needed to build a crossover. The only up charge over those prices is the labor ($65) to build it plus shipping. You can skip the $65 and DIY - the option is available on the site.

You can take it even further and simply purchase the design for a small royalty ($20 - and I don't keep that money - it goes to my partners for their work) and you can build a network for ~$5.00 using electrolytic caps, iron core inductors and sand cast resistors. Same exact parts quality as stock and it will cost you very little to try it out...

How's that for BS?

Thanks,

Ninja

I was the admin for the AV123 forum for 5 years and saw that a lot. I think it is just human nature - at least for those humans that are always looking at the negative potentials. The rest of us look at the positive and negative potentials and act based on the info at hand. Obviously no one is going to die because we had some fun with a speaker...

WOW! Painting with a pretty broad brush, aren't you? IMHO, one or two have reacted to the Ninja's offering a little over-zealously. However, none of the members you've named are among them and the vast majority of the members, skeptical or not, have behaved reasonably.

I think the majority of the forum members support your right to express your beliefs. They just disagree with them. As I've stated before, I agree that you have suffered what is, at times, unnecessary abuse for expressing your beliefs. At other times, you've invited the abuse with posts like the one above. We could argue for days over who abused who first. At this point it just doesn't matter. It would seem the brittle, nasty, hostility flows in both directions.

I don't know what's up with this thread. Where'd the love go? I was eager to hear about the testing results but the thread disintegrated into name-calling. Very uncharacteristic for around here...

I don't understand why there's so much venom over a supposed upgrade to the M22's. If Ninja wants to sell a $250 'upgrade' to the M22's, so what? No one is forcing anyone to buy it, and its existence doesn't harm anyone. Same thing with tube amps, 'better' cables, magic speaker pixie dust, etc. If you don't like it, trust it, believe in it, or can't afford it, then don't buy it. The fact that Ninja is trying to reach out to Axiom to get some testing done is proof that he at least believes that he has a viable and worthwhile product. Why not let the test results speak for itself?

I think it's good for Axiom. At the very least it shows that interest in our much loved speakers is growing. An 'aftermarket' is a sure sign of that.

And at the risk of being labeled as one of those people, I will fully admit that I own and greatly enjoy my tubed headphone amp.

Peace.

Yeah, 'nuff said.

I'm just sitting back, waiting on the testing results.

Yes Ninja, I am not doubting that you also contacted Axiom. Many of us forum members are protective of the forum. Through the years, many trolls have appeared, and us as members do our job to notify Axiom via PM, just to give them a heads up of any potential unwanted activity.

You have to admit it looked a little fishy that all of a sudden we have a few newbies showing up pushing your product out of the blue. Then, the master himself appeared, seemed planned to many of us.

Anyway, hope all goes well with your company.

PeterC, per the forum rules, we as members are not allowed to discuss "for sale" or "wanted" items. In some respects, Ninja and followers trying to push his product is no different.

If I say I want to sell my SMS-1, I get thrown to the wolves, but this is ok I guess.

C'mon Randy. Who, exactly, are these "followers" who are "trying to push" the Ninja's product? On the off chance you're actually referring to me, I reiterate I don't even know the man. I've simply stated that, based on my knowledge of who he is and what he has done, he is no scam artist or snake oil salesman, or phony. Beyond that, I leave it to the forum members to make up their own minds as to the value of his efforts, and to Axiom itself to decide if his presence here breaks rules or offends. May I respectfully suggest that, rather than trying to manufacture some great conspiracy, you try doing the same.

Well, I don't see it exactly like that, Randy. Ninja didn't just show up here saying, hey, here's my website, buy stuff! Someone else (who I think we can safely say was not affiliated) showed up and said, hey, here's something you might be interested in! Only after we expressed some ...doubt, did Ninja show up and make a free offer to try out his stuff. If I had M22s, I probably would have jumped on it, despite the reported orthodoxy of my misspelled doppelganger.

I had to google that word Ken. For a minute I thought the spelling bot was going to reappear..

Don't worry, that bit wasn't exactly aimed at you.

It's odd, I seem to have a few real doppelgangers running around. I wouldn't expect it; how many guys are there out there with long, red, curly hair and a goatee?

One of my buddies at work looks very similar to you. He used to have hair down to his waistline, but has cleaned up recently due to a promotion.

Is this you trying to get into Big Louies face at Venice beach.

You're right Ninja , I have no idea what the retail price of the components you're selling. I was sort of comparing your xover with something like say the Behringer CX3400 that retails for about $129.00. I know there are not the same thing, yours is an analog xover.

In fact, no... BTW, if I ever had to make the choice of cutting my hair vs. a promotion, I would probably leave the company. Welcome to the 1970s, long hair on men is pretty much normal. I keep it in a braid, it doesn't get in the way, and it most certainly does not affect the quality of my work.

Just wait until it gets caught in a jet engine.

Yeah, that might elevate his position...

I for one am very interested in hearing a modded set of M22s. I have stated I would mod my M22s as per Ninja's kind offer and I would have access to another set of M22s for some A/B testing. I am for anything I can get for free.

That is a very good point and certainly true. I was not thinking of this from the 'invading seller' perspective.

It's a fine line. Since he is asking for Axiom's input on the testing, and has said that he asked Axiom if it's ok to even be here, then I feel like it's less of a 'for sale' post and more of an informative thing. But I do understand how others could be offended/angry, looking at it from the other perspective.

Never angry/offended, we just got Axiom's back. We've got lots of skills, you know bo hunting skills, ninja skills.

He didn't come here to try to sell stuff, he came here because there was a thread about his products. I only started it to say "hey, there's a cool product you guys should take a look at."

This really is different from me coming here to say "I've got some speakers for sale" or even the Ninja coming on the boards and starting a FS thread about his products.

As various products are discussed here, wouldn't you want those responsible for the companies making them to chime in? I'd think the input would be interesting and valuable.

It was a notification thread, and discussion ensued. Axiom graciously offered to do some testing, and now everybody is sort of waiting for that to happen. I don't really see the analogy to a FS/FT thread.


EDIT: I suppose if you had originally assumed me to be an official representative it may have come off that way. I hadn't ever thought of the possibility until it was mentioned, tbh.

Aiming skills.

Nervously checks back...

I think we need some double-blind testing on the quality of Ken's work relative to hair length.

As to the rest, whatever floats your parade, as long as it doesn't rain on my boat. Or something.

I'm one of those "snake oil" guys, but you'd best think again if you assume I'm just another yahoo blindly enamored with high dollar everything.

Electronic components make a difference. So do cables. If you go into a mastering house, one of those places you take your finished master recording to be "mastered" into an album quality product fit for stamping into CDs, you'll see something amazing. There are electronics that cost tens of thousands of dollars. There are cables that sometimes cost thousands of dollars. It isn't priced like that because someone sold the whole world of mastering houses a load of serpent fluid. Engineers made these decisions when audio recording and production reached the point that recordings were within a few decibels of the live performance. The engineers who made these arcane devices made them with expensive discreet capacitors, resistors, transistors and other components. Sometimes they use high purity copper wire, sometimes silver. They use this stuff because the changes that are made to the sound of our recordings is some kind of black magic. The signal is distorted, but in a way which makes the ear very happy.

Every one of the components in your stereos and HT rigs change the sound from the original recordings. The secret of audiophile and studio gear is to use expensive components to work some kind of synergistic magic, so that the speaker elements that throw air waves at you make you think you're listening to a live performance. And guess what? The frequency response curve isn't as important as what your ears are telling you.

That may sound like some kind of audio heresy on the scale of wife swapping or something, but it makes sense if you understand what it represents, and that's the boundaery of the waveform bumping against your eardrums. And think, how many speakers with fairly flat frequency measurements sound flat, lifeless, or downright bad? One flat speaker can have you walking away, while another speaker can fix you in the listening position until hunger or the store closing (or your significant other) yanks you away? And even more interesting, another speaker with a few deviations in the frequency response can sound much better. And even more, a frequency graph will tell you absolutely nothing about how deep the soundstage is or how well the speaker images. And here's a kicker: a flat high end curve can still sound as shrieky and unpleasant.

You might be horrified to know that the frequency curve at your listening position can undulate like the Alps. But it obviously makes you happy or you'd send the speakers back with a letter as subtle as a napalm strike, right?

The reason a speaker sounds incredible is all about the synergy between the crossover, cabinet and speaker elements. And even your source, amp and cables figure into this. Your system is a musical instrument, just like a violin, and the more cost put into it, the better it's going to sound. A few of you get defensive when it's implied the Axiom line can be improved, despite the knowledge that Axiom themselves have and are continuing to upgrade their designs. And how many times have you read "These Axiom speakers are a great buy for the price," or "An unbeatable value for the price."

Hint: things can be better. How much better is up to debate and in person listening, but still. Axiom isn't putting B&W, Sonus Fabre, Thiel or Vienna Acoustics out of business. And let's face it, there's a company called Aperion which might be showing up the Axioms in a few ways as they are.

Some of you might scoff, but others might like to click here to peek into the mind of a speaker maker of some renoun, Tony Gee, famous among the DIY community as well as a few speaker company heads. This guy doesn't fool around. Articles like these among others are evidence that using high end components can improve the sound of a speaker, sometimes dramatically.

Before I even heard of Skiing Ninja, I'd decided I was going to contact Axiom and see if I could convince them to employ these high end components in their crossover. In fact, I'm determined to. You might ask why I'm being so picky over a speaker line as highly regarded as the Axiom. I could just take the easy route and go buy some B&Ws, Vienna Acoustics or Thiels, but I really want to buy some Axioms. It's because they captured my heart, from the elegance of their speakers to the people who make up the company. But I'm a studio guy and an audiophile, and I want some Axioms made with as little compromise as I can afford. Both for my stereo and my studio room to use as monitors.

In fact, if some of this discussion nudges the good people up north to produce a line of high end speakers along with the stuff they sell now, I'd be more than happy. I'd pay twice the price for an M600, for example, which could go toe to toe with anything from B&W, Sonus Faber, Thiel or Vienna. They would be more lovely, and they would be more affordable. And the old lines could continue to sell just fine. I don't think anyone would have any problem with that.

I have Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Baby Grand in my other place. But I actually prefer M80 setup. Of course a lot more goes into sound than just speakers (receiver, sound reflection etc.) but *overall* I like the M80's better.

I guess I might as well throw in my 2 cents... should take us up to $1.14 or so.

Back before I blew out my HF hearing I spent a while building speakers and playing with crossovers - hobby, not professional. After a couple of years, my thinking was more or less :

1. For the things I could measure or easily hear, high quality components did not give noticeably different results from low quality components AS LONG AS the relevent specs were the same. I just measured resistance and capacitance; I didn't have the math to know exactly what to do with inductors other than measuring series resistance and staying with air core inductors 'cause I *did* understand them

2. Small differences in the values of the components *did* make a surprising difference in perceived and measured frequency response, more so than I expected. I don't remember the details, but I do remember that I was spending extra for more precise capacitors but was not spending for exotic resistors, which makes me think that somewhere around a few percent was the threshold.

3. The testing methodology I had was relatively limited - sometimes blind but not instantaneous A/B - so I had a tough time comparing things like soundstage width and seamlessness. I never felt that the speakers I made matched the best I had heard in that regard, although at the time I was probably underestimating the importance of the room.

So... bottom line for me is that if the crossover design is relatively complex or has sharp cutoffs, replacing the components with higher quality parts *could* noticeably improve the sound if the original components had sufficiently broad tolerances that not all speakers from the mfg sounded the same. Put differently, the benefit from the higher quality components would come from the tighter tolerances relative to the sensitivity of the crossover design even if the "higher quality" itself did not make a difference.

I don't understand enough about what affects the nuances of speaker sound, particularly soundstage and imaging, to be able to comment intelligently whether higher quality components could help there. Intuitively it seems like "higher component quality" alone should not be able to make a difference, other than tighter tolerances both new and as the components age, but I would also be interested in the results.

Oh yeah, I also learned that if I tweaked the crossover myself without either measuring FR or having other listeners involved I invariably "improved myself into a corner", where the sound was as good as I could make it but it sounded like crap compared to reference speakers.

Anyways, I think it's great that replacement crossovers are available for the M22s. The debate about the relative contribution of cabinet vs drivers vs crossover vs "optimizing across 'em all" was raging when I first got into speaker design 35-odd years ago and I certainly haven't found the definitive answer yet.

Finally, if anyone wants to visit Axiom for the test (assuming Ian has space in the listening room) but are on a budget, if you can get anywhere near Toronto by bus or whatever I would be pleased to provide low quality accomodation (albeit with good eats and good beer) plus transportation up to Axiom and back as required.

Bridgeman

Thanks for the informative post. I related to everything you said.

Maybe Ian can set up a streaming video connection and we can all watch without making the hadj to Canada.

John (Bridgman). So nice to see your name on the forum again. Dennis (Tharkun) was asking about you the other day.

Dial-Up does suck doesn't it John.

Synthguy……..

I find your thesis statement contradictory to the rest of your post. You start off stated you are not enamored by high dollar everything, but then you go on a rant justifying that very stance. So where do you stand?? Are you someone who believes you have to pay for quality or not? Are you someone who puts a price on sound quality or not??

I come from the nuclear industry. I know the difference between crap and quality. I get paid a good wage to ensure that things are done right, the first time and I am very well aware of just how much money goes into ensuring things are done right. I also know how much money is simply wasted by inefficiencies inflicted on departments by morons who can’t tell the difference between a screwdriver and an end wrench, but who insist in instructing a highly skilled technician how to use them. I’ve seen crap that costs many times that of the identical product, but with a significant improvement in quality by a different vendor or contractor costing much, much less. Your statements that you must pay to get quality just don’t hold water. This is amplified with products that are being produced for a consumer base that makes their purchasing decisions with vanity and peer status in the mix. Bose and Monster immediately come to mind. I’m probably being generous, but I’m going to say that Bose and Monster budget no less than 70% of their operating expenses into marketing. That cost is passed directly to the sucker that believes their BS. Wine is in the same category. I have many friends who refuse to drink a bottle of wine that costs less that $50 because to them, anything less than $50 is crap. Even after "fooling" them into loving the $20 bottle during a blind tasting, they continue to live by their silly $50 rule. Screaming Eagle at $2000 a bottle is a prime example. People who buy it do not buy it to drink. They buy it to be part of an elitist group. It has nothing to do with quality.

Axiom may be a ‘budget’ speaker, but the quality of their products does not have a large peer base. Their business model lends itself to allow them to put a higher percentage of operating expenses into R/D and quality control instead of marketing and buying components for no other reason than to satisfy an ignorant buyer’s lust for status and vanity.

John, it is excellent to hear your voice again.

I kind of like the way Mike calls "bullsh!t".

I love that game.

Bridgman,

This is a really nice offer you made to everyone. Unfortunately the measurements and the blind listen testing will not be happening. Skiing Ninja has changed their mind and decided they do not want to send any of their x-overs here for testing.

That's too bad. Did they say why?

mdrew,

Your points here are very accurate. I have run into many expensive parts that were both unreliable and of poor performance. You have to be careful not to let price be your quality barometer; it is the results that matter. On a personal coincidence my dad was also in the nuclear industry. He was an engineer at Atomic Energy of Canada and was fortunate enough to be there through some very exciting years. He was involved in the design of their first test facility at Chalk River right through to the Pickering plant.

Just a publicity stunt . It's unfortunate that stunts like this happen to people that go out of their way for others.

He probably "crossed over" to the Dark Side.
Too bad this won't happen. It could have been informative.

In further response, with the disclaimer that I know less than most everyone on this board (also, I'm too slow with my reply)...

Granted, there are a lot of variables in sound reproduction. It's never perfect. However, I don't believe the engineers involved in the recording process should be looking for some kind of synergistic magic. They're going to be going neutral and flat or the rest of the process is compromised. It has to be about measured improvements based on established audio principles, or you HAVE to call BS. Now after that point, the producer of the album is going to make choices that affect that purity for an effect they're going for, and that may include anticipating the equipment of their target audience. I think that's a mistake, but it happens. After that point it gets exponentially more impossible to maintain the integrity of the initial recording. Everyone's system is different, as well as the room they're using. These are variables the holders of the original vision simply cannot control. As such, maybe they shouldn't be seeking some magical combination of gear that colors the sound in some perfect way.

As for playback, end users can do what they want. I chose to buy from a company that seems serious about the science and who were within my budget. I'm very happy with the results. Am I done trying to improve the sound? No, but I don't want to throw my money at companies that can't justify their prices. They can get away with it for now, but in the long run, isn't it going to hurt the business? The best audio gear is never going to be affordable for the casual consumer if it always relies on finding some elusive, mystical mish-mash of components that transport you to audio nirvana.

"Better" is subjective, and we should only be paying more for "more accurate," and for this, we have to trust measurements and extensive double-blind listening.

Yeah, I was looking forward to it. If I had M22s, I would have certainly considered the upgrade if his product held up.

medic8r

They said they wanted to keep their design “in company”. I suggested that if they wanted to make their design truly proprietary they should consider patenting them before releasing them into the marketplace.

Good point Ian. We'll see if he actually has something to patent.

The patent is the only way to go. All one has to do to decipher their design is to look at the crossover. Or maybe they encase it all in opaque black lucite?

Considering that their design has been available for a while (other speaker), they may have passed the legal time to file for a patent (max one year after the first public disclosure of the idea of the invention).

I believe the M22 XO is new this year, so the patent could still be applied.

We are not interested in applying for patents for stuff like this.

I know some of you will call BS on all this so here is the entire email I sent to Ian:

The network is a proprietary design and after some considerable thought, we would like to keep it ‘within’ the company. This simply means it is not available for OEM; upgrades only (such as a Borla exhaust for your car). That said, we do have a partner program that we can discuss at a later date if interested.

I spoke with my partners (one of whom is GR Research) and I’d like your ok to post some before and after measurements with explanations on my website. Please understand I mean no disrespect at all; in fact I greatly respect you and Axiom. The speaker business is incredibly difficult and we admire what you have done.

If this is something that you would rather not discuss or take further publicly, please let me know!

What I could not say at the time that I can say now is that we have just inked an exclusivity with another OEM so that puts the kibosh on us sending something to Axiom. Bad timing I know but that is how it goes.

Can someone go onto the site and purchase a set, test them thoroughly and then return under our 30 day audition policy? Sure can. Nothing I can do to stop it So no publicity stunt here. How silly a notion anyway - it's not like you can't just buy one...

Also, I added the requested measurements to the site. Go check it out...

If you would like to discuss the measurements and don't want to do it here, you can comment via the blog post here.

--
Ninja

I don't recall ever seeing anything on the site about 30 day return policy,, thanks for the update.

Long time lurker, first time posting

Ninja I have one question.

What delayed you in shipping some crossovers to Axiom up to this point? You had over a week to ship them out before this announcement today.

Hello Dr. House. All networks are custom built at the time of ordering and I did not have all parts in stock. We do stock a good number of items here but we were missing a few things.

You'll note on the SNS site it lists 3-6 weeks from order to delivery. We always try and improve on that of course but we also have a little buffer built in case we have component back ordered from the manufacturer.

Ah, one more item... a pair of networks is built over the span of three days as we must properly dry the paint and adhesives before wiring up and shipping.

Thanks

Thanks for adding the measurement charts. I have no doubt that the speaker does sound different since you changed the crossover point from about 4k to about 2k.

Having said that, I wonder how a blind test would work with a stock M22, and one with cheap Radio Shack L/Cs to adjust the XO to 2k?

Thanks for the reply. I am dissapointed this fell through. I was very interested to see how the measurements and double blind testing would pan out.

Unless you are highly skilled, you can't just drop in a few parts in the stock network and expect it to work properly.

That said, if you are highly skilled and want to do it, I say go for it

House,

It can still happen... I'm sure one of you guys here has a decent measurement rig (You can get Praxis for $1K) and can set up a blind test. Someone already emailed me about this and I told him it was A-OK with me...

bump

I wasn't suggesting "dropping in" inductors and capacitors into the existing network. I was suggesting making a new "network" using cheap parts (the "network" is nothing more than an inductor in series with the speaker, and a cap in parallel for a 2nd order XO). I'm not sure what the individual impedances are in the Axiom speaker, but if they are 4 ohm, you would only need to buy a .45 mH inductor and a 14 microfarad cap.

Anyway, I'm sorry you are not sending it over for testing, I was really looking forward to seeing the results.

Ah, then that would work. I say go for it.

On the testing; I can still send one out and have already OK'd it with one member. I just can't send it directly to Ian. I know it is stupid but it is how the contract is written.

Really, any of you can order and test away. You can always return it. You can even order and send it to Ian... no matter to me

I am sure you were just generalizing and know what you are doing but for the sake of those not as versed in network design...

Keep in mind that the values you noted are text book network values. Those are based on electrical parameters and not acoustic output so even that won't work correctly in the end.

"Anyway, I'm sorry you are not sending it over for testing, I was really looking forward to seeing the results."

They are posted right on the website

--
Ninja

I know, and in re-reading my posts they may have come off as argumentative. That was definitely not intended, it's sometimes hard to get intended emotion across on the internet. My interest is than of an engineer, as well as an audiophile.

What really peaked my curiosity was that you basically changed 2 things, the quality of the components, and the xo setting. I wanted to see if only changing one thing (the cheap thing - the xo setting) would make a noticeable quality difference. That is to say, how much of the improvement is from the cheap change, and how much from the more expensive change.

I think it's cool to tweak things to make them sound better; after all, we all share the common love of music.

Best of luck to you and your company.

>>
I know, and in re-reading my posts they may have come off as argumentative. That was definitely not intended, it's sometimes hard to get intended emotion across on the internet.
<<

Don't I know it and no worries!

>>
My interest is than of an engineer, as well as an audiophile.
<<

Absolutely. I'm a huge engineering and audio geek

>>
I think it's cool to tweak things to make them sound better; after all, we all share the common love of music.
<<

Well said!

Now if only we could all agree on what constitutes music....

The wars continue!

Now this would be really cool is some measurments and double blind testing with a pair of ninja modded M22v2 (more expensive components), a pair of modded M22v2 with cheaper components and a pair of stock M22v2 as a control.

That would be the best way to go about it, but at a total outlay of something north of $2000, I'm not seeing it happening by a private party. And there don't seem to be enough M22 owners in a given geographic area to try it.

Very good point. The only way I can see this happen if someone decides to purchase the network and ship it to Ian. The most meaningful measurments and testing in my eyes would have to be done by Ian and not a "private party".

No matter what this will not be happening any time soon considering these networks take 3-6 weeks to ship. All this hype will probably be blown over by then and will be forgotten.

Ninja, I think it would preclude some objections if you made the comparative graphs on your site the same scale. For many of them, the scale for the stock M22 is 75-100 db while the modified graph is 70-95. If you're going to try to prove things by measuring them, I think it is helpful to be as accurate as possible.

While I'm sure that higher quality (i.e, tolerance) components will make a difference in the sound, I was willing to bet that the xo setting made the more noticeable difference. Again, even changing the xo setting is a matter of taste, as long as the drivers are capable of the adjusted frequency.

Well, I will let you guys know my thoughts in 3-6weeks or 8 or 10, depending on when everyone can get some free time. Sean(the Ninja) is sending me a set. I like to tinker, possibly too much so. Anyone in the Calgary Area and would like to hear them compared to another set of M22s let me know. I already have a few in the Calgary area interested. Unfortunately it won't be anything as good as what Ian would be doing, but it will be our honest thoughts.

I couldn't agree more with you Steve, the XO point should be making the biggest difference, all other factors nearly even.

Are you buying these or is Ninja sending you them for a trial period and then sending them back?

Sean has kept his word and has offered them up for free inspection, paid shipping both ways.

Very cool! I'm looking forward to the review.

I'll be looking forward to your review also.

I'm assuming this will void your warranty, if that matters to you.

Is this directed at me? If so I am at the end of the Warranty period(5yrs) anyway, so nothing lost.

cul

Tom, I hear what you are saying and it does look a tad funky but the scale is the same so the overall numbers are not relevant and don't affect the outcome.

Thanks for your concern!

Ninja

If our measurements are not able to be trusted then neither would Ian's. He has the same vested interest here as I. If you want non 'private party' measurements done, then someone like Bascom H. King should be involved...

Also, all measurements were shot by Danny Richie at GR Research. His methodologies and his ability to 'tell it like it is' is well documented (maybe too well! heh)

Thanks,

Ninja

Absolutely.

I suppose I could scrounge up the same parts quality as present in the stock network and send those to Jason along with the Ninja Master networks. Would that be worth it for you guys? You would need a third pair of speakers.

If someone can guarantee that other pair of speakers, I will do it...

Email me an address if I should send them to someone other than Jason so you can install ahead of time.

Ninja

I trust measurements done by the NRC in Canada.

Agreed! Their history speaks for itself. I trust the research done and developed by Dr. Floyd Toole at the Canadian National Research Council over anyone else in this industry.

I think it's easy to get too hung up on the measurements. Especially when we're talking about things like "transparency".

Ninja, I will respectfully disagree with your assessment that the scale on the graphs doesn't matter. You've gone to great pains to measure things, to assert that those measurements have value, and to defend the integrity of those measurements. To then - within the presentation of the findings - skew the scale of the graphs subverts your earlier efforts.

I am amused that Ninja's decision to make a fairly significant change to the crossover point is getting so little play. I'd posit that Ian certainly considered different crossover points for this speaker, and that his research and his measurements led him to prefer the one in place. There's no reason why somebody else might not prefer a different design. I just don't think it shows a great deal of professional respect to suggest that Ian got everything else right about this speaker but forgot to even check to see if a different crossover point might have made a meaningful and positive difference.

I just don't buy it.

That being said, whatever makes folks happy is fine with me. Part of my personal enjoyment with Axiom speakers is not only their accurate sonic reproduction, but also the ongoing sense that they are a product of a unified creative vision.

Mr. Tom, you are getting my vote! Well said.

Interesting point! What I was thinking about earlier is what is Ninja trying to "change" sound quality wise with the M22v2 with this upgrade? Are you looking to add a "warm" or "laid back" quality like AV123 speakers etc(I do not think you mentioned what you were striving for with the network change).... I personally love how detailed and accurate Axiom speakers sound myself and the reason I bought them, personally I would not want them "tamed" down. Thinking about this further I thought investing in an upgrade that is 69% the cost of the speaker itself just does not make any sense to me.

Same here, but if even one person does buy them then he’s got his moneys worth in advertising from this thread.

Precisely! Nice post Tom. It goes to what I was saying before: regardless what the outcome of Ian (or whomever ) measurements , the Ninja was in a no-lose situation and getting free advertisement in the process.

I have to admit that I am now skeptical and am wondering if all this was nothing more than a clever marketing ploy. I was in total support of this product and Mr. Ninja until the Ninja and/or fate changed the rules of the game, and his (their) mind(s) to send Ian a crossover for testing.

I do not believe in coincidences. I have yet to actually meet one……

Like you said "when the rules of the game changed", I only became more skeptical of this whole thing. The way this has played out so far, I think it is very easy to be skeptical.

Ditto.

Nice one!



I’d call it a brilliant marketing ploy and in saying that I pass no value judgment on the Ninja or his products. After-market enhancements are industries unto themselves, just look at cars/trucks/motorcycles, so if Ninja can make a buck changing Axiom speakers and Axiom has no heartache over it then great.

However, since many people probably came to Axiom to get what they felt was the best bang for their buck I view crossover changes in the same light. What else can I buy with nearly 2/3s the price (the Master Upgrade) of a pair of M22s that might help more than different crossovers. Most people would likely (I know I would) benefit from some form of room treatment. Also, better quality recordings really help with the M22s just to name a couple things.

Having listened to the M22s for more than a month now I find it hard to believe that an additional 2/3s of the M22s price will give me a speakers that sounds correspondingly better.

Guys--

I support healthy skepticism. And I support healthy debate. Based on my prior knowledge and interactions with the Ninja, my personal belief is that the cynicism is not warranted. He's been around for a long time in other forums, and has been doing these kinds of mods/products for quite a while.

I can at least say that he's not just another "Johnny-come-lately" fly by night operation. There are plenty of satisfied customers who can attest to that.

I have no personal ties, nor am I even a customer. I just read a lot of "stereo porn" (as my wife likes to call it) in several forums.

Regards,
Rich

there are only a few variables which give a speaker its sound ... cabinet ... drivers ... tweeters ... porting ... cross over. the x over network is a huge factor as to the sound quality. m22s are great speakers built to a price point. a redesigned cost no object x over should substantially modify an m22's voice. listening and testing are the only way to determin if for the better.

Ninja would have to have had to listen to both. It would be interesting to hear his take on the "differences" between a stock M22v2 and his modified version.

I am having great difficulty believing so many grown adults have never experienced a coincidence.

Simple example: Years ago, I was working in a local book store. A woman was making a purchase and, though I forget how the subject came up, she told me she had just moved to our area from a specific town in California. I said "what a coincidence! My sister lives in that town." "Oh?" She said. "What is her street?" I told her and she said "What a coincidence! I lived on that street! What is your sister's name?" I told her and she said "OH my gosh, I lived just across the street from her and she is a dear friend."

Whether one believes in coincidence or not, it indisputably exists.

What a wonderful and civil place.

I'm not down on Sean (Parque, the Ninja). Sorry, I just can't bear to refer to him as The Ninja any more. He seems like a good, smart fellow. People I trust and respect (Rich and Jack) have judiciously urged us to assume positive intent.

His approach is interesting and opportunistic. Without having to negotiate driver manufacturing agreements, be responsible for an overall design philosophy, or be burdened by the bulk of enclosures, he found a concept by which he can indulge his passion for audio and leverage business based on an already-successful internet-direct manufacturer while still feeding off of the customers' insatiable and often unquantifiable need to tweak. Effing brilliant. Seriously.

I believe his products make a difference. I believe some people will prefer that difference. I believe some people will find the value proposition in that difference to be compelling.

-----

I hope we can all agree that Sierra Nevada makes a line of pretty delicious craft beers and that the company is reasonably successful.

Yet, there are dedicated SN drinkers out there that want "more". They try other beers, of course, because there is no long-term financial investment that precludes doing so.

What if I was to devise a proprietary "Sierra Nevada Flavor Supplement"? Contains more hops! Live yeast! Just a drop in each glass will make your beer taste fresher, richer, more complex!

Now, apply my example to speakers, or perhaps Kendall Jackson Chardonnay. Some people would be curious enough to try it, and blind testing might even reveal people who prefer the enhanced version.

However, those that place a premium on craftsmanship or design integrity will simply switch to a wine they like better.

Of course it is about the music, the flavor, the sound. And - unfortunately for some - those are NOT the only factors that translate into our enjoyment of the experience! To me, it remains as much about the expression of the artists.

Relative to music, we continue to discuss reproduction of that artistic expression. I choose to honor all those craftsmen integral in providing me with the experience. Because doing so makes me happier.

Often, the genius inherent in this liquid architecture and the mechanisms of delivery transcend even perceived shortcomings in fidelity.

Not taking a stand either way, I would make two points for consideration.

One: No one is going to buy a Ninja M22 crossover UNLESS Axiom has first sold a pair of M22s.

Two: Though I've not heard a Ninja M22 crossover, I have no doubt that it creates a "difference" in the sound of the speaker. However, "better" is a subjective conclusion. Some may find a Ninjad M22 more to their liking, others may not. IMHO, neither position can, or should, be considered "wrong."

This post is simply amazing, and obvious.

I think the best approach for these situations is to get the "o.k" from the engineer/company that designs/produces the speaker and to send them the product for evaluation. Making this process "difficult" (having to buy the product then ship it to Axiom) for the results the people want that are interested in buying these products (Axiom owners) rubs me the wrong way. The onus should not be on us. If Ian likes the product I am sure there is no doubt that Ninja sales go up for the M22v2 upgrade, if he doesn't then people will remain skeptical like they are now anyways.

All speaker companies (especially internet direct) have followings, look at AV123 for example. MLS has a huge influence on his followers. If he told his people that this is the best thing since sliced bread, there would be plenty of people buying it. I am sure the same thing would happen if Ian approved it.

We were looking to take care of what we consider to be issues with the design. Indeed this is only our opinion (as well as those Axiom customers that purchased the speakers that subsequently contacted us) but the measurements bear this out. If you look at the graphs, you can see the issues off axis as well as with the impedance. These are not subtle and easily audible. Additionally the ringing in the woofer is taken care of. Our only intention is enable reproduction that is closest to the source (as we can of course).



I'm glad you love them; keep them exactly how they are. We are simply providing an alternative for those that want more from the speakers.

I've said it more than once above... you can make this new network for very little money. In bulk, it can be done for $3 each. If you are buying off Parts Express, you are looking at about $25 each. I don't sell that level of network due to the very low quality --> negative effects on the sound.

I understand and do agree to a point. The fact that it makes no difference to the measurements should win out in the end in my opinion. I realize that you disagree and I'm OK with that. If I can get another pair to Danny, I will have him re-shoot so they look identical.



No one is suggesting that Ian forgot anything... at least I am not. He chose what he did for very specific reasons and I am certain that those reasons were based on his experience, listening and measurements. I've not suggested otherwise...

As far as professional respect, I believe I have been very respectful despite some rather disrespectful comments in this thread that have been sent my way...

Skiing Ninja will be three years old early next year. If it was some clever marketing ploy, I would be working for someone else coming up with these clever marketing ploys and making a hell of a lot more money than I do here.

As far as not sending Ian the XO, I made a business decision to sign an exclusivity deal. It's just business; there is being skeptical and then there is being paranoid...

Again, it would be trivial for someone to order it and mail it to Ian. They can even return it for full credit. If this was BS, why is it so easy verify?

I too do not believe in coincidences... a distinctly human construct designed to make sense in a non-sensical world...

My quick bullet point notes are listed right on the the product page for the M22v2. Obviously those are only my opinion and YMMV.

Thanks

I agree... thank you...

The problem with that is we don't supply OEM's with product or design assistance. I agree it seems more difficult but in reality it is not. Order. Install. Listen. Measure. Return. Done... and you are out maybe $15 in shipping...

Now that's a measurement test I would like to see.; a $3 'network' compared to Sean 'network' (oranges-to-oranges). Heck, I even would throw in a mid quality $50 PartExp version. I'm sure if the measurements are done, the discussion would deteriorate to something similar as to the speaker-wire debate.
** giving back the Jump-To-Conclusions mat to my wife * *

Post of the year, Tom!

Tom,

That is OK. The name is just a joke anyway... trying to have fun where so much seriousness exists

Sean

Mark me down as in favor of "fun".

I don't post much here but from what I see is someone who is getting some free advertising for a product with not much in the way of development costs; on the original manufacturer's website to boot. I'm sure there were much higher initial development costs for the M22's than what a crossover network is worth.

Ian is in my opinion, much too kind.

Axiom has shown once again what a class act they are. Kudos to them ! This speaks volumes on how they run their business.

Ok, who is on moderator duty today?

OK, perhaps I went too far in my statement. Sorry if I offended anyone.

you are... which is kind of scaring me...

Lorenzo, believe me, was not talking about you.

Am I missing something here?????

Don't worry Lorenzo1000, I'm pretty sure sirquack wasn't referring to you.

edit: woops, sirquack already stated that, I'm just too darn slow posting :-)

He's probably referring to the last wave of Ninja's posts, in which on almost each one of them there's a reference or link to his business website.
I don't mind posts here from people representing companies as long as it's related to the subject. However, when they constantly try to direct traffic to his website it gets annoying to say the least. This alone , IMHO, proves the true intent of him posting here: cheap targeted advertising.

That response from sirquack was responding to my post. I am not sure who sirquack is referring to as well. My post was actually a positive comment on how Axiom has handled all of this craziness.

Don't get too tied up in the "Re: " line; a lot of people read the posts in flat mode so we're always just replying at the end of the thread.

Mods, please delete this thread... I don't want any free advertising from Axiom. I will post no more...

Sean

My skepticism is because you obviously made the initial offer to send Ian a crossover when you were in the middle of contract negotiations. I personally would not have made the offer if I was in the negotiation stage (in my line of work I work with contracts on a daily basis). To me, this timing issue leads one to wonder if the offer was sincere. I know that comes across as confrontational, but I hope you not take offense to it and try to understand my comments from my point of view.

I am not a ‘glass half empty’ sort of fella. I need two glasses because one is overfilling. I am trying hard to believe you had nothing but good intentions and are an honorable person, and coincidentally, the deal just fell through because of fate / timing. However, it is a hard pill for me to swallow. Yes, I could buy a crossover and send it to Ian myself as you clearly stated. But that’s not the point. You made the offer, and then had to rescind it, and the timing of that is what gives me pause for more careful thought (not paranoia as you infer). Even though I really don’t have a dog in this fight and couldn’t care less about making my M22’s sound different, or even “better”, I was ready to buy a set if Ian indorsed it under you most generous offer to send him one. I was also very interested in a crossover for my M80’s, as I am currently using resisters and would be interested in a different crossover design for them that would allow me to pull the resisters out. I am less inclined to do so now, but still reserving judgment until I see how this all shakes out. Bad timing or not, I am disappointed that you can not, for whatever reason, send Axiom a crossover. I believe that Ian and his gang would give a very unbiased report of the testing results and blind listening in a controlled environment.

Jack,

If you recall, I came to Sean's defence when he was being grilled before anyone else. I am still trying to keep an open mind about these timing coincidences. Don't tar and feather me just yet.

I'm just starting to read this thread but am generally in agreement with Peter. I would do a blind test at my place and take Ninja up on the offer for a free trial XO, though i own M60s and not M22s required for the challenge (it is too bad since i've been itching for some more speaker tests and reviews lately...maybe over winter).

However i will at least sat this much, an "upgrade" to one may be a piece of junk to another but changing crossovers is not snake oil, it is simply swapping one speaker component for something else which can certainly change sound characteristics, for better OR worse.

The term upgrade is being tossed out like these different XO components are beneficial. In reality they are simply producing a different sound when used in the M22 (see the Ninja pages frequency graphs taken with a grain of salt since details of those measuring conditions is lacking).
Whether anyone prefers that new sound is up to the individual but using the term upgrade is rather typical for marketing the product and i always cock a cautious eyebrow when i hear the term.

Reading in threaded mode is waaaay too much work because of the way people reply. Does anyone do that?

you mean there is another option????

As Tom mentioned, I was responding as the last person in the thread at the time. I was being sarcastic about the thread in general. Oh wait, now Peter is going to think I called him sarcastic!

I think we're being too hard on Ninja. Sure the timing is unfortunate but my experience with technology licenses is that they drag on forever and you never know if they will really close or not until the day they (finally) get signed.

I would not be surprised if the new crossover sounded better, and I doubt the folks at Axiom would be all that surprised either. I believe the crossovers in the production Axiom speakers get changed occasionally, although I'm not sure whether the changes are to accomodate a "new improved" design, or to compensate for changes in the driver components, or both.

Now, leaping cheerfully into shoes I haven't earned...

If I were in Ian's shoes, I probably wouldn't want to see the design of the crossover, if only because if there was one of those "obvious once you see it" improvements it would be a real awkward situation re: adopting the idea -- and it would drive me crazy if I *couldn't* adopt it

If I were in Sean's shoes, I would quietly fix up the graph as Tom suggested because my target market will be every bit as nitpicky as we are, maybe even more so. The vertical offset in the graphs set off a red flag for me and immediately made me suspicious that something else was being "snuck into the picture" although I certainly couldn't find anything amiss and the graphs did look reasonable.

If I was... well... all of you nice folks... I would try to encourage the discussion to continue. One of the nice things about the Axiom forum is that we don't babble on at length about the kind of extraordinary sound you can only get if the speaker wires are precisely 4.5" off the ground (for 8 ohm speakers, of course)... but on the other hand there are some characteristics of a sound system we don't know enough about and probably would do well to discuss a bit more (soundstage width, imaging, all the words like "grittiness" which I can sometimes imagine I hear but can not explain).

I don't know what makes one speaker differ from another in those nuances and the crossover may be one of the elements (presumably phase response). Could be the drivers, could be the placement of the drivers on the front panel, heck I even hear credible people saying the electronics make a difference.

Anyways, the challenge with talking about all that stuff is that you need to be both extremely suspicious and extremely respectful at the same time. That makes for a very high bar and I'm not sure we totally met it in this thread.

Anyways, if the test is still on I'm sure looking forward to the results. Calgary isn't that far away, is it ?

I am not the thread in general.

well that and you have two hands to double fist the vino and way too many bottles of superb wine in your over flowing cellar

Written like a true master Tom. Hey look, he has an Obiwan avater, what a coincidence.

OK, if threads about all things audio is sterio porn, this thread is forum porn. Hmm... I wonder, does that make every post in this thread forumplay?

No, but it makes some of us fluffers.

i almost posted a helpful link to that for those now scurying to google "fluffers"

Chess, just send the helpful link to Ken via PM. He's the only one who doesn't get these references. . .

done and done

Bridgeman, that is a nice post that I somehow missed.

My personnal addition (or contraddition) to your post would be that I feel this discussion should now be moved to Skiing Ninja's web-site. They have the tools to host the discussion and that is where is should be relocated. Those interested should join there (and I might do it myself), and when there is something to report (apart from those silly in-room graphs), then the results can be recovered here and a sane discussion could then ensue on both fronts.

Thats a very astute observation on techology licencing bridgeman.

By the way, congrats on the OEM Ninja, thats quite an acomplishment. Particularly given that many companys suffer from 'not made here' syndrome.



Also written like a master, but I think we actually do pretty well on clearing a high bar. Some posts go a little over the egde, but people generally seem to pull themselves back. Most other places this thread would have descended into childish nastiness and been closed.

Its been both an entertaining and interesting read.

in all this talk did anyone even ask how the name ninja came about?
why not polliwog or the great flying green magnifico?

Sadly, Sean, I know what a fluffer does.

Agreed. I certainly haven't seen a better group than this one.

EDIT - enough with the Star Wars. I miss my old avatar.

"Trust me, I know what I'm doing."

If I were to buy a set of these and request they be sent to Axiom, would anyone be interested in a “used” set after Ian was done playing with them?

Reason I ask, is it’s highly unlikely that this will be done prior to the 30 day trial the Ninja’s offer for a money back return. I will be out around $300 that I’d much rather put toward a couple bottles of wine or my favorite stripper’s college fund. I have absolutely no need for these widgets as my M22’s are running in parallel for my quant little movie room’s center channel. I have another two channel rig for CD’s, and I don’t use Axiom speakers for that system.

If this can be worked out, I'll foot the bill for the testing party.

I hate you.

That brings back memories of trips to Europe where one could buy an exceptional bottle of wine for all of $7 a bottle. I used to take an extra suitcase whenever I went.

How did you pack them? We were nervous enough flying cross country with a few bottles of wine, never mind international.

I packed extra dress shirts for the trip.

One nice thing about working on a cargo plane is that our extra suitcase is a pallet. Plus being military we usually get to pick our port of entry so we make our first U.S.A. stop at a customs friendly port

i'm not sure if i'm more surprised at the first statement or the generous offer to have all these axiomites head north for a huge hosted party...

Not to worry Mike, I already have a set being made, unless Sean decides you guys have pretty much ruined any hope of a future sale, in which case he might just drop Axiom from his line up.

Sean was good to his word in that he would send them for an audition free of charge to any forum member, that would be me, as I apparently contacted him first and I also have 2 other sets of M22s offered up by the other members here in Calgary to use as controls. I suspect all of your banter has made him have second thoughts on even pusuing Axiom as a client. He has not received this type of scrutiny from the many forum members at av123, granted they know him better than we do, but still he designed a crossover for their much loved Rockets and Ref 1's and they have more or less embraced the chance of a new sound from their much loved speakers. I can see where some will like the sound and others won't, but until any of us get a chance to hear some of the new crossovers we should be reserving judgement.

Well said...looking forward to your impressions, no matter the results!

That dosn't surprise me. His behavior here has been pretty consistant.

I wonder. If a bunch of us would be willing to chip in, we could buy the network he is sending you and pass them on to Axiom. I would be willing to contribute $20-30 to the cause just to see how the measurements correlate with listening tests.

Yes, well said. A lot of what happened is a attributable to poor/sudden presentation and questionable choice of words (from all parties). I am certain he will duly take notes of this and learn from it for when he has a new "first contact" situation, which, hopefully for him will happen often in the future!

Everyone is waiting for the Calgary happening (don't drink too much or at least take notes DURING the testing so you remember the results)! And then let's see from there!

I have nothing solid to contribute here. I'm throwing in a totally worthless post so that when this thread gets written into the Earth's historical archives that I will be able to say to my grandchildren that I was a part of it all.

<<Insert smiley emote of your choice here.>>

I'm totally going to use your post as my signature.

From the looks of it this Ninja thing is probably not going to happen :(. They seem to be giving axiom and the community little digs here and there. Its to bad it ended up like this :(. Here is a link to his community (linked from his website).

http://www.av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=36794

Yeah this Ninja guy sounds like a real stand up guy in the audiophile community. Now he is claiming Axiom is using < $3 crossovers in their 22's, seems like a real class act.

Well, that was painful to read.

I've been avoiding posting anything in this thread for awhile, but since it's all gone sour, here's my opinion on this whole thing.

1. The Ninja would appear to be a legit businessman.
2. Poor timing on the offer to Ian made us legitimately suspicious.
3. I don't doubt that a redesigned crossover would make the M22s sound different.
4. I believe the M22s sound excellent as is!
5. I don't think that these premium components that he uses would provide a significant improvement over correctly rated components of the same type.
6. I would be curious to see the comparo build between cheap, correctly rated components and his components. I suspect there would not be a difference in sound detectable by the human ear, even in ABX testing.
7. The guys at AV123 would seem to be a tad less science minded than we are.
8. Ninja put up with a lot of crap here, but that's what happens when you get introduced like that and then are forced to pull out of a promised comparison.
9. This forum ain't the only one that gets caustic sometimes.

Yeah, he drew a few generalizations based on the perhaps inflatedly pessimistic/skeptical posts of some of out members. In any case, he was clearly on better behavior here than he is on his home turf.

He still has not commented on whether expensive components make a difference. His product cannot prove that because it changes a fundamental characteristic of the speaker -- the crossover point.

Same here.

Ninja still seems to be planning to send two sets of crossovers to jakewash - one with premium components and one with standard components - so we should get a chance to see.

Personally I think this is great, and if the "premium vs cheap component" comparison happens as planned I think Ninja will deserve a lot of respect no matter what the outcome.

Interesting. I didn't know he was providing two sets of crossovers.

Before you get too exercised over Ninja's estimate of the cost of the stock cross-over components used in the M22, tell us, have you ever examined an M22's cross-over?

If you don't agree, with Ninja's estimate, what do you think the stock cross-over costs?

It is just a parting shot. Its part of the game. Its pretty easy to say when one is selling just "uber" networks for over $300. The question I pose now would a M22v2 with the ninja network yield better performance than the M50 or M60 (closest price range)....not likely.

Imo it doesn't really matter what the stock crossover cost as long as the owners of the M22's enjoy what they are hearing.

I would love to see all the jabbering about this end, and get some actual results to determine if there is a great improvement made to the sound of the speakers. And again Imo for 317.00 a 67% increase in the price of the speaker it needs to be significant.

I would bet most people buy the M22's for their great sound and low price. So now we will have a speaker that costs $787.00 a pair, in that price range I'm sure there are many speakers that would compete pretty well with modified M22's.

Michael, I agree with you completely regarding the price point making it a whole new ballgame.



Alright, I'm calling BS on this (with no offense meant to my brother Ken). Honestly, there is a perception that people dumped all over him. I just don't see it. You guys need to give yourselves and each other a break.

Certainly the total cost of nearly $800 changes the competition, even if the sound is great. I personally would expect a fairly dramatic improvement for that sort of cost. (reminder: I haven't heard these and have no idea if I think they're worth it)

I would, however, like to point out a couple of things that may affect that obstacle. Using, as an example, the Onix Reference 1, which I have heard pre/post upgrade, and is one of his more popular kits, I would wager that there aren't a ton of people buying a Ref 1 new for $1200 and then buying $400 worth of upgrade for it to get a brand new $1600 speaker. There are some pretty darn great speakers out there for that price.

I suspect that the primary scenarios are 1. bought it used for $400 and upgraded it for a killer $800 monitor; 2. Had it for 5 years now and love it and the upgrade is cheaper than selling it and buying a better speaker; 3. Willing to spend for a nicer speaker, but really don't want floorstanders because of space requirements/WAF/preference/etc.

If somebody here has M22's and has had them for quite some time, maybe $300 is more appealing as an upgrade than trying to ebay them or whatever and buying something totally different, or maybe they really don't want to move to M60's because they want to stay with the form factor. I'm not saying the cost vs. benefit argument doesn't apply, because it absolutely does. I'm just saying that there probably aren't many potential buyers who are going to buy both in one shot.

A crossover upgrade can't magically make your bookshelf into a floorstander. It has the potential to make it a better bookshelf, sure, but there's no getting around physics.

Wasn't really saying that. I was just saying that for some there are reasons that the upgrade path can't include floorstanders. Upgrading your bookshelf speakers becomes more appealing when you aren't comparing your cost to M60's.

Or comparing them to any other company in the $800 dollar price range such as Paridigm, SVS, Aperion, Jamo, Ascend, Totem, B&W....and the list goes on and on

True, which is why I'm curious about the upcoming ninja upgrade to Paradigm Studio 20's. They aren't a "high value" speaker despite being very good. Again, I assume it's aimed at existing owners loyal to their favorite speakers.

Internet direct in general offers better value, and there are a number of companies out there doing it. Certainly I am a believer in ID, as I considered Axiom, Ascend, AV123, B&W, and Paradigm before purchasing, and found B&W and Paradigm to fall behind in the value category definitively.

All of that naturally figures in when considering any upgrade. For that matter, if I'm going to buy something for my front end, like a DAC, or an amp, or cables, or whatever, I have to think about how much improvement I'm getting. Compared to some of those items, new speakers will usually be a better value and a more dramatic improvement. Its not that way every time, though, and sometimes you want to keep the same size, finish, or other attributes, and get an improvement. I'd wager that whatever the level of improvement an upgraded xover gets you, it's in the ball park with some of those other things I mentioned.

(note: I have $10 speaker cables from musicians friend and $6 hdmi cables from monoprice, so I'm not one of "those" people. - you know who I mean)

Actually, yes I have examined the crossover. I don't work for Axiom, so I have no idea of the cost.

Nice plug! I do not agree that internet direct companies give you the best value for your money. This is a false assumption. There are many other companies that can compete in these price ranges...I just prefer the Axiom sound in this price range :).

To some extent I would agree with this, if the Ninja's product does indeed improve on the speakers enough to overide the cost of replacement speakers it may be well worth it for someone who wants more, but the M22's are right for their setup. But again until there is some type of comparison, review or testing on the M22's with the crossover installed that shows dramatic improvement, it's all a moot point.

To me, Ninja lost all credibility when he basically said on the AVS board "look at what's going on over here on the Axiom board".

Not a scientific approach, and this is from the supposed engineer who designed the product.

Any interest I had on this product is gone.

I agree that Sean took some crap here and I was personally embarrassed to read some of it, but you have to admit that this OEM timing issue muddied the water a bit. In retrospect, I should have refrained from saying anything as my comments did nothing but add fuel to a smoldering fire. It looks like I need to make another apology…..I should really just keep my trap shut.

My offer to buy a set was / is genuine. I would love to hear what the results are in a controlled environment. I’m not interested in anything but that to eliminate the emotional responses. It would just be nice to recoup some of the cost as I seriously doubt testing and shipping these things back and forth can be done within the 30 day window and I’d be out the $300 bucks or so. I am also still interested in a different crossover for my M80’s.

I really don’t understand why there is any debate at all that the Ninja crossover will not make a difference is sound. I have no doubt it will, and it will most likely be an undeniable difference. Whether it is better or not will be a personal choice.

Indeed mdrew which is why i continue to question the use of the word UPGRADE.
The word is used even before anyone buys the product.
Some are sold on the concept before they hear it while others are skeptical right off the bat.

If someone does a test, only a blind, instantaneously switched and level matched setup will be worth its salt.

Folks, there is a simple way to settle this without a zillion more posts. Pony up a few $ so we as a group can buy a set of crossovers and send them to Ian.

at $30 it only takes 10 people to make it happen. Heck, thats not even a full Monster Cable!

Who else is willing to step up?

I agree with Mike here.

I don't really think there's any question that the mod will make an M22 sound different. We can debate whether or not "higher end" crossover components make a difference, but certainly the changed crossover point will.

I think the waters have been muddied between those discussing whether or not the mods are legit, and whether or not the OP should be getting "bashed".

My concerns were the methods of introduction.

Someone new shows up and says "Hey, this new thing is great! Let me give you a link to the website!". Then the person who markets the new thing immediately shows up. He starts posting and then[i] asks "Hey Ian, can I post?". Of course, with the spotlight on the Axiom folks, could they really say "we prefer that you didn't as we have rules against selling and marketing here"? THEY would have come off as the bad guys. From the outside, it appears the same as [i]other times when someone new shows up extolling something, followed closely and coincidentally by a rep for the company.

Then, though the OP was a moderator in the past, he lists his e-mail address in the thread.... which any moderator knows would normally only be done in a PM. His posts always contain his website info…just in case you're interested. He offers, in essence, a "free trial" for public comparison, but then backs out of the comparison part.

I'm not saying he's a creep or a troll. My guess is that he's a nice guy offering a legit service, but my radar flashed warnings of being scammed or "sold" in a subtle way because of all the "coincidences".

And no, I don't think we were mean. We have a nice community here and someone came in who was (appearing to be) a little slick. Despite the few that are crying "foul" and that we never accept dissenting opinions, I think we as a forum are VERY accepting of other opinions of speaker and equipment preference.

But, we also look out for each other. I think we, as a forum, have a right to cast a wary eye on the whole thing and police ourselves a bit.

This forum does NOT simply exist in free space. It is hosted, paid for, and moderated by a company. That we have amazing flexibility in discussing competitors' products favorably is TRULY the indication of Ian and Amies' generosity, openness and non-competitive nature. I've been on many forums over the years that would find a post deleted within 5 minutes if it mentions the competition or anything negative about the organization or hosts' products or services.

Ninja should have contacted Ian and Amie, via private PM, at the earliest stage of this, to ask whether or not it would be OK for him to post as he was representing a service and product. Especially one that is a mod of our hosts' product. Because, let's face it, by announcing that your product improves on the original, you have to talk a bit about possible shortcomings in the original.

It just wasn't handled well on Ninja's end. As someone who was a forum moderator, he should have known better.

Couldn't agree more.

Well, I can't pretend to have done enough research on this to dispute it, because I haven't. It's just been my experience so far. Certainly the business model lends itself to it, although with some smaller ID companies they may not have the economies of scale that a large B&M manufacturer would.

I agree that Sean could've handled things better on his end. It was a mistake to offer to send his crossover to Ian, and then renege. I believe the offer was made in good faith, but I suspect (pure speculation on my part) that his partners in this venture nixed the idea. He has pointed out, almost hinting hopefully, that they can't prevent anyone from buying the crossover and sending it to Ian.

I have not read what is being said on his web site, but IF he said anything derogatory about this forum over there, justifiable or not, that would also be a mistake.

Of course, the whole thing could've been handled a bit better on this end as well. Many members, the vast majority in fact, accepted what he is doing with an open mind. Unfortunately, a persistently vocal few reacted with nearly immediate comments of "snake oil, "BS," and sarcastic speculations of "magic" and "coincidence" (wink wink; nudge nudge). Finally it got down to the point that the whole thing was dismissed as a "marketing ploy." Nice.

So, as is usually the case when conflict arises, there's plenty of blame to go around.

Ajax go back to the original post of this thread. Is there any fault in the emmediate reactions that was given by the community by calling it BS, snake oil etc...I think not. For someone with such a low post count promoting a brand new website, a product and posting a link to it is considered SPAM. I do not think it is the fault of this community at all. The blame should be pointed to the approach that was taken by them in this matter. I think that is the biggest issue here.

I can understand skepticism being engendered by the OP. I have no problem with being people being skeptical. But to allow one's skepticism to morph into rude accusations of dishonesty, without proof of same, is, IMHO, irresponsible. Many members expressed their skepticism without calling "BS," or "snake oil." Regrettably, a few couldn't wait for proof.

What you call "promoting" I see as "informing." I'll accept that the line between the two is thin, but to accuse Woofersus of promotion implies a knowledge of his intent, which, simply none of us can know. I sorta believe in "innocent until proved guilty." An outdated concept on the internet, I know, but I'm old fashioned. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

EDIT: I noticed you made a reference to Woofersus' post count. I sincerely hope you aren't implying that any conclusions should be drawn, about what is being said by someone, based on their low post count. I just noticed you have 21 posts.

For the record, though I understand the usefulness, I fear revealing post counts leads to just such abuse. It ain't the quantity that counts, it's the quality.

I stand by the fact that I came here solely to point out something I thought was cool to a community I thought might enjoy it. I can understand some skepticism, but to blame that on my low post count is disingenuous I think. It was clearly not a spam post, and within two posts with questions I had explained my reasoning and lack of affiliation with skiing ninja products. I'm pretty sure I didn't break any rules.

I have said before that I think most people here responded reasonably and only a few did not. To say I was the cause of it is a little unfair.

Yes I have a low post count but I am not pushing any products or violating any board rules. The point I was brining is people with low post counts are the ones that spam advertise (I am not implying his intention was to) it could just seem like that at first. After it was implied that he was legit I think he was given more than the benefit of the doubt.

All I am saying is it was not "ideal" and someones first impression could consider that spam. After it was cleared up by Ajax that you guys were legit, it is obvious it was not your intention and you came here on good faith :). As you know other things transpired and if they did not happen I do not think we would be even discussing this sillyness :). I still would love to see some results from all this, you know why because it would be a fascinating experiment. All this discussion on his networks has been very intersting :).

Me too. Hopefully, Jakewash will have some information for us. He should be able to tell us 1) if he hears a significant difference, and 20 which incarnation he prefers.

But, though I'll be eager to hear what he has to say, if I'll be forgiven for belaboring the obvious again, I would point out that what Jakewash hears (or doesn't hear) and which he prefers (if either), is no guarantee that I, or anyone else, will hear and feel the same.

I agree, hopefully he has a group of people there so there could be a concencus.

Assuming that
a) the crossovers are not total garbage (which I don't think for a second that they might be)
and
b) the crossovers are not a gift from God that makes the M22s sound like WATT/Puppies

there ain't gonna be a consensus. I suspect that instead there will be people who like them better than stock, and that there will be people who like stock better.

Yeah you are probably correct on that. Consensus is the wrong term, I should have said majority.

If there is one thing I have learned over the years its that the time you separate the quai-interested, flakes and wanabees from the real deal its when action time arrives.

So, I will ask one last time. Who here is willing to make a commitment? Mdrew and I are.

What do you get for your money? If you are curious about the network you get measurements to match up against Jason's listening tests and Axioms measurements for their stock network.

For the skeptics, if the network is not the real deal, you get numbers to back up your suppositions and full bragging rights.

Heck, once we own the networks, if someone is able, we could even swap out lower cost parts and re-measure. I bet we could talk the folks at Axiom into doing some additional measuring.

Either way, we move from the land of if's and speculation to the land of certainty.

Its action time!

It depends on how much money, If we can get a bunch of people and each invest a small portion I have no problem with that. I do not mind sending anywhere between $10-$30 dollars. Who do we send the money to and how?

Someone can send it to axiom and then they they can play with it. (I do not think a return in 30 days would be possible), really does not matter though...axiom can keep them or they can just be given to someone who owns the M22.

I wouldn't mind contributing.

You sure you wouldn't want to wait till after I/we are done? Who knows, I may buy them, in which case I would send them to Ian.

Dr. House. I am glad to see you are willing. You too CV.

I was thinking about $20-30. Where to send the money is a moot point unless more people are willing to commit.

Any update on this?

Oh gosh this thread has awaken from the dead

I am presently installing the new crossovers, well they are in actually, and am waiting for another Axiom owner to lend me his M22s for a comparison, hopefully the results will be in by the end of the month

Why don't you have an M22 owner make a tape of how his M22 sound so you can compare?

Well Jake, before the other M22s come... Do you notice a difference (without meters, etc)?

Dang, I thought this thread died.

That's what happens around Halloween...

They come back to life!

All I will say right now is they are reasonably easy to install and it is a very tight fit in the cabinet. I had fun installing them. Pictures to follow when I get home in the wee hours of the morning.

Mmm...AVS anyone?

I'd be interested in getting them regardless of my volatile and unpredictable income/savings level.

I'm going home at the end of the month...may order them. From a guy who will ALWAYS be using the M22's at a desk (floorstanders not an option), this is a pretty good option if its a noticeable upgrade. I wouldn't mind if the M22's had more of a warm presentation as a result of the crossover.

And hey...it might stop my current addiction with my headphones (I'm actually doing a software engineering/programming project about comparing audio between headphones...it's permeating my thought)...

Ok bye.

I'll be eager to hear your impressions, Jake. Thanks for doing this.

I'd like to make a few points before Jake shares his thoughts. I feel they are pertinent regardless of what, positive or negative, Jake has to say.

Jake will be giving us his opinion. Nothing more, but nothing less. His perceptions don't mean that you or I would feel the same.

I like, respect, and admire (1) the Colquhouns and eveyone at Axiom, (2) the way they do business, and (3) the product they bring to market. I feel they provide one of the best values in audio. But, we all know that there are those who don't care for the Axiom sound. I don't have a problem with that. The same can be said about virtually every speaker in existence. However, I do have a problem when, in order to justify their opinion, they feel it necessary to characterize the product as "crap." We all know that is nonsense.

I have no idea how Jake will feel about the Ninja crossovers. But, I humbly request that we treat his opinions with respect and don't allow this to degenerate into unnecessary bickering.

Thanks again, Jake.

Not sure we would do that to Jake, we all know him to be valid.

Everything's jake when it comes to Jake?

That was very jake of you.

and as always I will put forth the approach that unless these subjective observations are performed under objective controlled circumstances they will ultimately still mean very little

blind and randomly switched tests with level matched speakers is required to even answered the basic question, is there an audible difference?
after THAT one can then ask which version you may think sounds better

you have to answer A before you can answer B or one's brain will subconsciously think there is a difference before the test even begins. it has nothing to do with how honest a person is or not.

maybe axiom should consider starting to sell ABX switchers for the budding home enthusiasts

I do not think anyone here on this forum called his product crap. The same can't be said about them about Axiom. Sorry just had to point that out.

For those interested I have posted the install write up on Sean's thread (Upgrade Central) over at av123.

Thanks for the link Jay.

Nobody said or implied that anyone here on this forum called his product "crap" so I don't quite understand your point. And who is "them?"

If Jake present his opinions as objective science your point is valid. However, Jake has the right to his subjective opinion and the right to express that opinion and I, for one, am looking forward to hearing his opinion. It is left to each of us to decide for ourselves how much or how little that opinion means.

Jeez, Jack, you're fired up and stirring the pot today.

While I do appreciate the repeated admonishments about "opinion" vs. "Science", there are a couple of elements worth noting, IMO.

First, the notion that we accept the information as "opinion only" requires relatively full disclosure about the circumstances under which that opinion was formed.

Second, it is possible if not likely that the crossover will impact the efficiency of the speaker. So, for there to be a relevant comparison (rather than a review), the level matching does become pretty important.

To me, there is quite a bit more burden on a comparison than there is upon a listening session by those familiar with the sound of the original model.

While I agree that proper testing procedures are required for definitive proof of audible differences when dealing with the same class of speakers, there are situations where there is such an Extreme difference in quality as to safely make an immediate judgment of preference.

For instance, put a small cube speaker from a cheap HTiB setup up against an M80 grade floor stander??? An extreme example to be sure. True, in this case we are dealing with a modification to just one component without changing anything else like the driver, cabinet, etc. Here there is indeed argument for controlled testing.

However, just to be the devil's advocate..... What if Jake adds in these new crossovers and they change the sound in such a large degree that it is simply unmistakable. Unlikely but perhaps the new crossovers are tuned sooo way off for this particular speaker configuration that it turns them into the tinny sounding equivalent of a tiny cube speaker. Or, to be fair to Ninja, maybe it goes the other way around. Although an improvement to that scale is even more unlikely due to the laws of diminishing returns on a speaker of this caliber.

So no disagreement on the necessity of controlled testing for most situations but lets not say his experiment has no value just yet. I for one, look forward to his comments as he is the only one investing the time and money to do at least this much.

Tom, agreed, this is about as heated a discussion as I've seen in awhile from the generally fair-mannered Axiomites. (though still quite civil fortunately)

Call me simple, but I just want to hear what Jay thinks when he hears the speakers. I'm confident he'll do as good of a job as he can to be impartial and create a good controlled listening session and that's about all I can ask for. For me though, I have zero interest in buying these (for one thing, I don't own M22s) so for me it's just curiosity, not anything on which I'll make a purchase decision. Looking forward to it Jay.

Jason

Luckily no money, Sean made good his offer to supply the XO's, so I have nothing invested other than my time, which is at a premium these days, but sleep only gets in the way of getting things done.

Yes, Jay, many thanks for your time and trouble. Like Jason said, I have absolute trust and faith in you and your ears. Your experience should prove very valuable to others.

So, you know, if you want to listen to them before you get the stock ones for comparison, that would be okay

I was referring to Ninja. IMO he made some disrecptful comments about Axiom in that Axiom m22 measurements thread. Not very professional IMO. Maybe you should give him a lecture too :D.

Another plus for me in doing this, I was able to convince my wife I needed to move the M80s upstairs till I was done with the comparison. I've always wanted to have them on the main floor for an extended period of time.

Is there any word on when you will get a stock M22 for testing?

I am hopefull the comparison can take place this weekend, if not, I am sure it will happen by the end of this month at the latest. Just having a hard time getting schedules to mesh.

I think jakewash deserves a big group hug :D. I know I would not be able nor willing to invest all this time on this matter. I just want to point out THANKS!

These are essentially my thoughts as well. I haven't heard this particular product, so I can't comment on what I expect the outcome to be, but to say there has to be a strict scientific method to even decide whether or not there is a difference probably over complicates the issue in the particular case.

If we're talking about the difference between the original components and premium level components, I can understand that need, as there is debate as to whether it makes any difference at all already, and the "voice" of the speaker is likely to be similar even if there is improvement. Same goes with comparing speaker wire or IC's or power cords or whatever. In this case, it's important to remember this is a bigger change than that. The topology of the network is actually altered here, with different crossover point altogether.

Like I said much earlier in this thread, I haven't heard an example of one of the designs that only changes out components, but I have heard the Onix Reference 1's both before and after, and the difference isn't subtle. (also a design that is all new vs. just upgraded parts) It was a gtg with 90 people in attendance and I didn't hear a single person claim they thought there was no difference. A few preferred the original, most preferred the upgrade, but nobody questioned that they were different. (and no, most weren't audio snobs that think $500 cables are better than $400)

I suppose you could give an extreme example where his room and front end were so awful he couldn't tell the difference between his m22's and a bose lifestyle system, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. It stands to reason that we can get a general idea from his observations.

Naturally opinions should be taken as such, and it's absolutely not scientific, but that doesn't make it un-useful. It certainly isn't a 100% decision as to which is better, but most of us are just curious to hear what he thinks of it. For that matter isn't that how most of us decided to buy our first Internet Direct speakers?

These are a few important things I would like to point out.

1) Level matching the speakers is a must.
2) Use 2 channel Direct Mode so there is no equilazation being used from the receiver.
3) Blind Testing

You might also want to test some multichannel stuff as crossover networks can affect phase quite a lot and sound fine in stereo, but strange as you add other channels. If you have Avia (or another DVD like that) that provides tests with moving objects, it might be interesting to see if there is a difference (better or worse) between the 2 networks.

Just to let you guys know, Mojo has agreed to partake in this comparison, although I doubt he will post his impressions.

Absolutely, the speaker levels will be matched, from my initial testing it isn't hard to match as they have the same output with pink noise from the avr.

I am using pure direct mode at the momment.

As we are simply looking for differences between the speakers, is blind listening really necessary? We are not looking for a "I prefer this to that" conclusion, we are simply looking for the 'new' sound the Ninja XO's bring.

I guess that answers the question of sensitivity. I was just going to ask if the numbers were posted on that.

IIRC, Sean said the sensitivty was virtually unchanged as is the power handling.

We are not talking about suppression of the expression of free speech or anything here. Hold onto the soap box speeches for the next election.

Jack, you know full well that in the world of audio a subjective expression of opinion becomes a second person's Bible of authority on what is unequivocally true even though it could not be further from the truth.
For example, aren't all Axiom speakers bright? Because I read that on a forum and this information was posted from a well renowned audiophile who posts there a lot.

What I am saying time and time again is "oh really"?
And I will never stop asking that question so that the "second" person who comes along may think a bit harder or more in depth rather than blindly believing the first subjectively expressed opinion they read on a subject.

the bottom line
help debunk the myths

unless of course this takes away too much of the illusion of audio magic and in such case I have to apologize for destroying anyone's dreams of audio nirvana with 150k Wilson Audio speakers and 50k Cardas interconnects

jakewash do you have any intitai impressions you would like to share of the modded M22 before the testing.

Jeez, Tom, I greatly regret that you perceive things that way. I don't feel "fired up" in any way. Since this thread was initially greeted by some with accusations such as "promotion," "BS," and "snake oil," I thought it reasonable to make the point that there is no need for such excessive (IMHO) defensiveness over someone's opinion. I assure you that should Jay and his friends prefer the stock M22s, I will not be wasting your time telling you his methodology was flawed, his viewpoint is worthless, and that you should feel that way also because, frankly, I don't care which they prefer. I'm just grateful that he is spending his time and money to share his opinion, whatever it may be, with us.

Then it was postulated that, since there will likely be no "scientific" structure to this comparison, any findings would "mean little." I merely pointed out that how much someone's opinion "means" to anyone is their choice. I have no problem with anyone discounting someone's opinion if it doesn't measure up to their requirements. However, I would appreciate not being told how much that opinion should mean to me.

That you consider that to be "stirring the pot" is disappointing.


No argument with either point. I have no doubt that Jay will explain what went on. Then we each can decide for ourselves how much importance to place on his opinion.


Not sure I understand this. As I understand it, and I could be mistaken, there will be a stock pair of M22s and a Ninjaed pair of M22s being listened to by Jakewash and other Axiom owners. Is that not both a comparison and a listening session by those familiar with the sound of the original model? I apologize for my confusion.

My point about the comparison is that with BOTH pairs of speakers in the same room, there is MUCH more data available than if the same trusted person were simply auditioning a custom set alone. You have available not only the subjective assessment of the custom speakers but also the subjective assessment of the stock speakers AND the subjective differences between the two. Additional data often increases expectations. Heightened expectations infer an additional burden in assessment and analysis.

Jack, I certainly don't want to disappoint you. And I will respectfully decline your eloquent implied invitation to continue an argument for which I frankly lack both passion and time. We're splitting hairs. This is supposed to be fun.

Nice straw man argument. No soap box speech. I don't believe the term "free speech" appeared in my post. The issue is not whether someone has the right to express an opinion, the issue is whether anyone is entitled to tell others how much importance to place on someone's opinion. Feel free to say how much importance you place on it, and why, but leave my decision to me, thank you very much.


.
First of all, the statement "Axioms are a bright speaker" is a statement of fact. No, I don't mean it is a fact, I mean it is an opinion stated as a fact and I would, and do, take exception to that. However if someone says I find Axioms to be bright," or "I think they are bright," or "Axioms sound bright to me," I have no complaint.

Are you saying that anytime someone would say "Axioms are a bright speaker" You would step in and say "oh really" in an effort to "debunk that myth?"

hold that thought while I find Tom's hair splitter...

Another spirited audio debate! Oh, how I miss the days when this happened every couple weeks.

Ok, so maybe I don't miss them all that much, but some of my best posts came during that era (imho).

Thank you for the clarification. I understand now, and agree.


Tom, if you mean "argument" in the sense of "quarrel," I most respectfully disagree with you. I have profound respect for you and have no wish to quarrel with you.

However, you have, thus far, accused me of being "fired up, "stirring the pot," and now "inviting you to continue an argument," none of which I feel is a fair and/or accurate assessment. I hope you will forgive me for saying that I feel you are mistaken in those characterizations. I don't believe I've made any personal statements about you or my perception of your state of mind (which I could not possibly know) that would incite your wrath. If I have, I sincerely apologize.

Wow! I had no idea how much bigger the replacement xover was than the stock one. I also can see how someone who doens't know any better might think the stock one is "pathetic" (to borrow from the av123 thread) because it doesn't use larger parts.

As someone once said, sure you can have parts that hold more tightly to specs, but deciding where you want to spend your cash in audio is all about thresholds. Will it make a difference to a human ear? No? Then it's not worth wasting time or money on.

And I thought size didn't matter. Silly me!

That's just because that is what your wife has told youfor so many years. Huh?.....what? Was that out loud? Sorry.

No, Jack, I read, comprehend and largely agree with your signature line. I meant no disrespect.

Cheers.

Me too neither.

Jason, please tell Mojo I said hello and wish him all the best from me, I miss that guy.

Ditto that. Give him a collective, "hello" from us at the boards.

I keep him informed of the shenanigans that goes on here. He was actually the one that suggested a GTG and these XOs came at just the right time to coincide with this meeting, what luck! I shall pass on the salutations.

Tell him I finally married Regina Spektor.

No, no--she married you.

Will do!

And you can tell him(since we're into blatant lies)that I finally took his advice and got M80s(and contributed my M22s to the Salvation Army)so that I could hear what classical music really sounds like.

That's the spirit!

That would bring a tear to his eye........ or a great big laugh in my face

Actually with all my M22 listening I have been doing lately, in 2 channel and no sub, I have been rekindling my love for the M22s. I had listened to them for a few days before I made the XO change, they really are a great speaker and I can understand why you are not willing to change to a floorstander.

Tell him I swapped out my cables and now my room doesn't suck anymore!

I thought your room stopped sucking when Obama won. What good is he if he can't fix a simple room?

Tell Mojo that I'm walking

Tell him that Tom writes in slang, with horrible grammar and no punctuation.

Tell him that I'm speechless.

I am afraid he would never believe me Peter.

Tell him that he's entered The Twilight Zone.

(singing)

Soon you will come to know ...
When the bullet hits the bone!

and further, that Peter's normally compulsive grammar bot allows all grammatical errors to go entirely uncorrected...

They spank the clarity of M60's...their clarity is just so good.

Now that I have owned both M22s and an EP500, and M80s and no EP500...I think that the m80s provide plenty of bass for a 2.0 system.

Please tell Mojo we need him back and that for once instead of using way too many rambling words to express myself that I.........

BUMMMPPP

I can't believe it -- all these posts and I still don't know what the new crossovers sound like.

I'm having that same feeling.

jakewash is washing out on us.

If only we had a magic man or 7 to make him appear with the data.

Ninja Notes
Smoother
Superior top end weight
Obvious sound stage expansion
Greater transparency
Well layered

Edit: from Ninja website

House - did you hear the modified M22s? I didn't realize you were participating... or, if not, whose listening notes ("my listening notes") are you referring to in the second paragraph?

Jason

I edited my post. Those listening notes are the claims Ninja makes for his M22 crossovers (from his website). Thats the closest thing we have to work with at this moment "for what they sound like" .

Sorry for the confusion.

Good thing you edited it. It sounded for a moment you had a thing going on with Mrs. Ninja!

no offense but this thread deserve to be deleted, even if it won't. Over 40 pages of post and not even one review, that's a shame. Maybe it work, maybe not, if you think your product is worth of any attention, make sure you do the right thing and promote it for review.

this post will self destruct in 3-2-1-...

Threads don't get deleted around here--whats with all these thread deletion requests of late? What people say should stand unless it is specifically counter to board rules or is removed by the poster.

I'm not going through 40 pages, did the official test happen with Ian and friends?

You have a point LucRaymond! There was defenitely better ways for them to "market" this product to the Axiom followers. Unfortunately that did not happen...AKA sending the product to Axiom for blind testing and measurements.

No the Ninja decided to keep the info "in house" but I believe JakeWash is hosting an unofficial listening test this weekend, which could be very interesting, depending upon results/impressions.

I for one am staying tuned for the review . . .

You must have missed all that fun :/.

Luc - you'll have to get used to the Axiom forum discussion model.

Threads are often filled with pages of us rambling before we get to the meat of the original question. Usually though we have a lot of fun in the process. I can see where coming into this discussion late would be frustrating given that you read all the way through to find no conclusion (yet). Give us a few more days and we might actually get to a review here.

Jason

Patience my friends, the review is under way and mostly complete. I still need to finalize a couple things first. I will give you a teaser and say they do offer more detail......

...which is already more than you! kidding!
Just make sure no beavers will be mentionned in the review...

Talk about a teaser. Since many perceive the axiom sound as bright and the ninja mod actually changes the network design rather than just swapping components the obvious move would be to make them sound "less" bright. Saying they offer more detail would tend to contradict that logic. I am incredibly curious as to what the review will contain. Please don't hold out on us much longer!

Not knowing how Jay defines "bright" and "detail," can we can assume the two are synonymous? In my mind (YMMV), it is conceivable that a change could increase detail while reducing "brightness" at the same time.

Absolutely correct.

Its not safe to assume anything. These terms are used in such a subjective and confusing manner. For one I refer to the sound of Axiom speakers as accurate and detailed. They are not a bright sounding speaker to me. So if I refer to them as detailed I am in no way implying that they are bright.

We just have to wait and see how jakewash defines these terms first before we make any assumptions and jump to any conclusions.

You are correct, but I was speaking to the opinion of many who do find the axiom sound to bright and saying that a design intended to please many of them would likely be shifted in the other direction. Also, jakewash has stated to me privately that he has liked several different speakers that many find bright, so he just likes that sound. (whether it's "bright" or just "accurate and detailed" I'm not saying either is correct)

It is entirely possible that there is more detail while maintaining a similar voicing, or any other thing really since the gaps are yet to be filled in. I was mostly saying that it wasn't the initial reaction I had expected and that I'm more intrigued than ever.

For those of you watching this thread, I have posted my review in the water cooler

Review