I just got a refund on my Denon PMA-2000 because it is no longer manufactured so Audiophileliquidators couldn't sell me one. So the hunt for an amp continues... I stumbled across 'Emotiva' who touts itself as an 'affordable audiophile' company. Well if I had a nickel for every company I've seen that advertised something like that...

So anyway if anyone here can vouch for them they do seem very affordable. But the rule of thumb is usually 'you get what you pay for', right? But then again Axiom produces speakers compete against speakers in much higher price ranges from what I've read, so maybe Emotiva is the real deal as well.

A question I do have is I'm looking at the XPA-5 that runs 350 watts to 5 channels at 4 ohms (M80's would have ample power), but what about the other 3 speakers, would running them at 4 ohms damage them? Or is there a way to run the M80's at 4 ohms and the other 3 speakers 8 ohms? It seems to me it has to be one or the other. In that case I'll have to buy the XPA-2 and run all the rest of the speakers from the Denon. Which wouldn't be a bad thing, I'm sure the Denon has more than enough power to run the surrounds cleanly.

Maybe I just answered my own question then... the XPA-2 would probably be the better set-up.

You may want to do a "search" for Emotiva, lots of discussions through the years. Personally, I had bad luck with their MPS-1 shutting down all the time with my m80's. Some others have had the same issues with the XPA series, some have not.

Any receiver and/or amp can drive speakers of different ohm ratings at the same time, you don't change some setting to 4 ohms. That being said, make sure you use a reputable brand AVR that has been proven to not have issues with driving 4 ohms speakers.

Still not sure why you think you need an amp.

Micah, your "hunt" appears to be a bit premature. You shouldn't assume that your 4802 wouldn't be entirely satisfactory for driving the M80s and your other speakers. The M80s are slightly more sensitive than average and therefore require less power than many other speakers. Before looking to spend money on possibly unused power capacity you should try what you have first.

Speakers aren't "run" at any impedance other than what their internal wiring establishes. The impedance of typical speakers varies from about 3 ohms to 20 ohms at various frequencies and it's entirely possible that one speaker in the setup may be at the low end of the impedance range at a particular instant while another is near the top of the range. There's no such thing as a fixed impedance number and this doesn't cause any problem.

Micah, I think you will find your 4802 works very well with the M80s, after all it should be around 180-190 watts/channel into the 4 ohm M80s. however if you still feel the need or possibly more the desire to look for a seperate amp, I would be looking more into Outlaw or as someone recently posted a link to a Crown amp (T1000?) that would work very well with the M80s, that was not too expensive.

Satkartr just tried the XPA2 with his M80s and the amp wouldn't stay on, kept going into protect mode and shut down. I know there have been a few others here that have had the same issue, yet others are happily running emotiva products with M80s so emotiva appears to be a bit of hit or miss.

Wow seriously, the XPA-2 kept shutting down? That's crazy as it is a dedicated 2 x 500 watt amp. I would have thought that would have been PLENTY of power to keep up with the M80's power thirst... at what volume was Mark running it on??? Lol...

Now see that is the prime reason I've been looking for an external amp. When I was pushing my Cerwin Vega's (I'm thinking they were 300 watt speakers, but I can't remember for certain) at very high levels, they would start to sound very strange after a period of time, almost as if someone were playing with the eq or something. I never had another set of speakers to hook up to the Denon so I'm not sure if it was a problem with the speakers, or if it was an issue with the 4802. At any rate I figured a good separate amp couldn't hurt, and would do a better job since all it has to do is worry about power, unlike the reciever which is busy with a whole host of other things at the same time as trying to push clean power into the speakers.

Thanks for the info on different ohms also. I was never really sure how that worked, now I understand it a little bit better. That will certainly help when I'm looking for an amp.

I would bet it is the Cerwins, but not knowing their sensitivty rating etc. it is hard to say. I am willing to bet they are not as efficient as the M80s meaning you had to drive them even harder. You were most likely running the amp to near its max output to achieve the SPL levels you were wanting at the time.

I would kick back, relax and wait to see what the Denon can do on it's own with the M80s hooked before spending more money, you may be pleasantly surprised.

I actually owned Cerwin Vega's years ago. They had horn drivers and as I remember were extremely efficient (more so than the M80s). You must either listen VERY loud, or there may be a problem with your amp. I have the Denon 3806, and I have never had a problem with it shutting down while driving the two M80s, one VP150, and four QS8s, even while playing music in the 90db range.

I'm driving the Epic 80 (7.1) off my Denon 3808 in a 14x20x8 room and have never had the Denon shut down no matter how loudly I've driven the speakers (up to ~105dB just to see how loud it'd go). I can't give much of a review of sound quality at that level as it's just too loud to do anything but cover your ears and wince when it's jamming like that.

I give another vote for "wait and see" with the Denon you have. You would have to have SERIOUS volume requirements or a monstrously big room before you'd need more power than it can provide. It may turn out that you do... However, if you can save yourself the money spent on an amp, you can dump that money into your subwoofer budget (more and/or bigger subs)

I think you'd have a much more noticeable difference putting your money into subs than an external amp to begin with given the nice receiver you already have.

PS: If you're not sold on that advice, this is the Crown amplifier mentioned above ( XTi 1000 ). 500x2 into 4 ohms for $499. Alan has just recently recommended Crown as a manufacturer that has no problem driving the 80s, so I think it's safe to say they come highly recommended.

Jason

Micah, I would not assume you need an extra amp until you try your Denon and then/if you have problems. Heck, my 2805 from 5 years ago drives my 80's with no problems, and I occasionally crank it up.

Hmmm... You guys sure aren't any fun, I was really enjoying my search for a nice 2 channel amp (not the easiest of tasks, but that's what makes it fun!).

Lol, ok ok I do appreciate your attempts to save me some cabbage. I could in turn buy that Denon BluRay player with TrueHD decoding I guess and see what that's all about. I'll have to read up on it some more & see if it plays either DVD audio or SACD... That would really be sweet!

The Denon BR players do play SACD and DVD-A, at least the really expensive one does.

Here is my 2 cents. I have M60s, VP150 and QS8s so I can't comment on the 4 ohm M80s. I have owned 3 pieces of Emotiva gear. An LPA-1 amp, LMC-1 processor and an XPA-5 amp. I have enjoyed all 3 pieces and have never had an issue with them running hot or shutting down. I have had to send in the LPA (which I have since sold) and the LMC for repair but will say that their service has been similar to Axiom's at least for me. It was quick and so far there have not been any more needed repairs. The XPA-5 works great with the 60s. Personally I like the gear but I'm not 100% sure with the quality yet. The XPA has been flawless but I've only had it about 9 months. They have a 5 year warranty so they do stand behind their products.

All in all, I am positive for Emotiva and plan on purchasing more pieces when they are released.

Well I was looking at the Denon DVD-1800BD which I found online for $500 bucks. Not cheap, but not out of this world either. But reading the description it says "brings you True HD & SACD via HDMI... I wonder if that means no RCA analog outs?

Actually SACD is not even supported on the 1800BD only the standard cd layer is read.

"....only the sound on the cd layer can be heard..." right from the 1800BD owners manual.

Continued through all the BR Denon owner's manuals and none of them appear to support SACD nor DVD-A.

I run my m80's vp150, and qs8' with a mmc1 pre/pro and the xpa5.. I have stated this many times, but just to sum it up Emotiva makes great products! the xpa5 is incredible. Especially if you run just the mains(m80's) in stereo wich is stated at 450 wpc the sound is so sweet! The mmc1 is no longer available but it is a very nice processor. the new processors coming out are supposed to be amazing, and i get the 40% off discount

I am hoping the new dual subs from emotiva are on my christmas list

They are a great internet company just like axiom... if you have any questions just give them a call.

Yes emotiva products do sound good, I could never figure out why the XPA2 would not drive my M80s without going into protect when a number of folks here on the forum have used the XPA5 with no problem.

I can't seem to find it, but I read some where that the XPA-5 has a different protection circuitry than the XPA-2 and I think this difference might be the cause of the XPA-2 shut down.

I wouldn't take my chances on it, if it were the M60s maybe. They do make a fine looking product. I would like to see someone try to drive a set of Maggies with one of these amps.

Not 100% sure, but I believe the XPA2 has the same waveform limiter circuitry as the MPS1, so that would make sense why it does not like to drive 4ohm speakers.

Since I sent back my MPS1 and purchased my Odyssey monoblocks the 80's have never been more happy.

Hmmm.... I must have been in 'wish' mode when I wrote that. For some reason I thought it mentioned SACD, but upon second look you're right. So I wonder if, since my reciever only has the one set of RCS external imputs, if 'Y' adapters would work? The extra connection may degrade the sound ever so slightly, but it would save having to unplug the BluRay player everytime I wanted to listen to SACD.

Perhaps I'll be able to post in the future about whether or not the XPA-5 will run a pair of M80's. I think I'm going to follow the advice of several members here and try running my system with just my Denon and see how it handles everything. I'm sure for movies it will do the job brilliantly. I'm more concerned with the way it will play music at high levels for prolonged periods of time. If it's not up to the task then I'll more than likely be purchasing the XPA-5 (now that I understand resistance a little bit better) and running my front left, front right, center, surround left and surround right speakers through the Emotiva, and run my remaining four surrounds through the 4802. This way I should be able to get away with purchasing four QS4 v2's for the rear and the QS8 v2's for the side surrounds. I'd save $220 bucks that way, which is a third of the cost of the XPA-5!

I'm sure your M80's are happy indeed. However at $2300, my pocketbook would be very, very sad.

no need to worry about your Denon handling music for extended periods of times, you will only be using 1-3 watts most of the time with brief jumps maybe reaching 100 watts. The 80's will give you 95dB's 1w 1m.

You menioned this before on another post, not sure where your figuring $2300, mine only cost me around $1500. Besides your not talking apples to apples comparing Emotiva to Odyssey anyway.

$2300 is what they have quoted on their website. I didn't scour the internet for the best deal as I'm sure you did. $1500 sounds fairly reasonable. However I guess if the M80's only consume 1-3 watts for the majority of the time, there may not be a need for an external amplifier after all. Which is great news as it would free up more money for a BluRay player now that I've discovered the DVD1800 doesn't even have RCA outs (ARRGGGG!!!!), and the only players I've found so far that do are around $1500! Goodness

Are you not looking for RCA outs just for the audio? If so then you can look for any of the ones mentioned around this forum and they are only in the $200 - 300 range, Panasonic, Sony, Samsung etc.

And if you look at the Stratos from Odyssey it is $1200-1500.

Looking for a BluRay player that decodes TrueHD/DTS Master and sends it via 7.1 channel RCA outs. Playing SACD or DVDAudio would also be a major plus.

That's what I thought. You don't need to spend thousands of dollars to get them, many of the more regular brands have them, like Sony, Samsung, Panasonic.

You can only purchase new Odyssey amps directly from Klaus in Indianapolis at Odyssey Audio, unless you purchased used equipment. They do carry a transferable 20yr warranty.

The $2295 your quoting is for Stratos mono's, I had my amps custom built by Klaus do to space concerns in my AV closet. He basically built me Stratos monos within Khartago cases for $1500.

Or a Rotel RB1080 for 1K and save the $500.

I see. I just looked on Odyssey's website http://www.odysseyaudio.com/products.html and looked for mono block and $2295 was what they listed. Naturally they won't have special orders listed there.

Here's a wild alternative. Now that you are considering not purchasing an additional Amp, you could put that saved coin towards a new receiver that supports HDMI. It does seem to be the way of the future. Bearing in mind the length of the 'future' is relative in the audio world.

This would be to accommodate a cheap solution to SACD by digging around for an 80GB PS3 that supports SACD. You will need a HDMI capable receiver but you will get Bluray, all the new HD audio formats and SACD. Streaming music and that other thing it does. Games or something I think.

It's a total rethink but if you can find an 80GB PS3, it's a cheap way to get BR, HD Sound and SACD.

Bite your tongue!

Ok actually, the thought has crossed my mind once or twice over the last year or so. But you see the trouble is I just can't find a quality 9.1 channel reciever anywhere in it's price range. And much like your first move to a 1000cc motorcycle (after riding 600's), or dating your first perfect 10 girlfriend (up from your previous 6 or 7 star sweethearts), it's hard to go back to something 'lesser' in hi-fi audio as well.

I know that the rear 4 speakers are actually only 2 channels split into 4 outputs and there isn't any difference in what is coming out of them. But I simply haven't heard a Home Theater system sound anywhere near as good as the set-up I had, and I was using very middle of the road speakers in that rig. I can't even imagine how good the Axioms will sound in that format.

I'll stick it out with the 4802 until I can afford the AVP-A1HDCI and the POA-A1HDCI (looking at around $12,000 for the pair if I dig deep for good deals). I mean I'm still feeling burned over this recent leap in technology after waiting it out for years and years and then finally purchasing my current Denon. At the time I figured this reciever would more than adequately provide me with all of the bells and whistles I could ever want for at least 10 to 15 years before I'd need to think about upgrading. But this has taught me that you simply can't get ahead of technology. Who know's what's around the corner, in two years every reciever on the market today may be obsolete for all we know.

HDMI looks to be what everyone has settled on as the wave of the future as far as audio/video connections go. But there is still room for tweeking it. I'm willing to stick it out a few more years with this dinosaur before I purchase my next center piece in my HTC. It won't be bullet proof either, my next reciever could very well be the last of it's kind before the 'next generation' is unleashed upon us all. But that's the chance I'll have to take if I'm going to play this game.

It's a sick addiction. But much like my other money sucking toy, the heavily modified ZX-10R sitting out in my garage, in order to keep up with the cutting edge of motorcycling technology you pretty much have to buy a new bike every 2 years. But I generally keep mine for 6 to 8 years and keep them as current as I can my upgrading whatever part becomes obsolete when the next best thing arrives on the scene. Then when I just can't stand it any longer I'll buy a new one and start back at ground zero again.

The similarities between these two obsessions are striking. I'm not sure which hobby I get more enjoyment out of. They both like to gouge my pocketbook. Maybe I shoud have just stuck with golf!

I've been pretty happy with my Emotiva gear. I've had a LPA-1 7 channel amp powering my whole system for almost 2 years now, and it's been a solid amp. It was $499 and it drives my M80's (and the rest of my system) perfectly with no problems what-so-ever. No problems with heat or spontaneous shutdowns. I did have one of their LMC-1's (prepro) for a while but ended up returning for a refund due to buggy software.

My overall experience with Emotiva has been positive. I am probably going to buy their new UMC-1 prepro when it's eventually released. But I'm fully intending to use their return policy if it doesn't live up to my high expectations.

But as others have mentioned, there's more to the story. Several highly-respected people here have had problems with Emotiva's 'high-end' amps and M80's. It's been reported that there's definitely a bit of the 'blame game' going on, with Emotiva claiming that M80's have substantial impedance dips. And us loyal Axiom-ites claiming this is untrue, since no other amps seem to have problems with M80's and there are some unconfirmed (to me) reports of people with other 4-ohm speakers (Rockets) having problems with Emotiva amps too.

My advice would be that if Emotiva has an amp that meets your performance criteria and you're genuinely interested in it, you might as well order one to try. If it doesn't work for you, Emotiva has a no questions asked return policy.

Or if you want to bypass the 'what-if' questions entirely, just buy an Axiom A1400-8.

I looked at Outlaw Audio as well and some of those amps look pretty good at a good price point for what you get in terms of value, however, the two top Outlaw amps weigh 100 and 110 lbs, respectively, meaning I would need a new/extra rack and the WAF would fall to an unacceptable low since I have a lumbar disc problem and would need her help to hoist it into position. The A1400 weighs only 54 lbs and then your only what-if is whether you need all that power. That's the type of uncertainty I can live with, especially since the 663 did not seem up to the task of powering even two M80s to my ear.

I forgot you were running a Yammie, should have bought a Denon and then there would have been no problems.

Ah yes, the road not taken, guess now I'll never know! I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference.

How many roads does a man walk down......

As many as it takes to get the job done right.

The answer is blowing out your ....

Well out of two possible answers, I guess yours is the closest.

You're right there, I keep trying to shorten up the process due to lack of free time, but it's quite a project setting up an HT; currently I'm unhappy with the position of the surrounds, close but no cigar, but I will probably want to wait until the sub arrives before I attempt to reposition.

Hmmm... Yes I suppose it would be a good idea to test my surrounds out before I go drilling a bunch of holes in the ceiling. That could save me a lot of patch time!

Hey Sat, has Emotiva been any help resolving your issues?

Randy I think you may have missed this posting in his HT thread

I have the MPS-2 - 7 channels, 200 watts per channel @ 8 ohms, 300 @ 4 ohms. Currently it's only driving two M80's and I haven't had any issues.

This amplifier can draw 15 amps of current (when all channels are in use, obviously) and should be on its own dedicated circuit. Are those who are having issues running their amps on a dedicated 15-20 amp circuit?

I have a dedicated 20amp circuit for my HT stuff. When I was having issues with my MPS1 it was because of the waveform limiter shutting things down prematurely. Even with everything on and things cranked up loud, I was only using a few amps if that, should not be an issue.

thanks Jay for the reference...

My RPA-1 was (and still is) on a dedicated 20 amp circuit when it was shutting down.

Hi there,
I have a Denon reciever as a preamp & Emotiva LPA-1 happily feeding my M60's and all other speakers and sounds great.Overall Emotiva is a very reliable company, remember that it's mostly problems that get posted on forums more so than customers with no issues.Their failure rate is I believe around 1% which is well below industry standard.Lot's of guys running power hungry speakers there to with no issues.

I have never had a problem with their customer service but I'm curious as to what elementary school did the statistics for Emotiva's failure rate??

Sorry, late to the game here. I've got Emo equipment (MPS-1) and have had no shut down issues like Randy (sirquack). In fact it was his recommendation, at the time, that pushed me over the edge to get Emotiva. I did have a hissing problem which Emo resolved pretty quickly by exchanging amp modules.

Scott

Scott, I can't remember, what speakers are you driving with your MPS1?

Well it was more complicated than that, but it's a long story which I will share some day when I have time.

Lonnie pretty much gave up without a fight, and I suspect it may have been due to his previous inability to fix your situation. He said, "Well I'll test out the amp to see if it's up to spec if you want, but . . . " I was very disappointed because I thought the amp sounded great and the price was right, but I'm glad I don't have to send one of those guys back for repair very often, it was over a hundred bucks just to return it.

You had to pay to return it?

Yup.

That sucks, how long did you have it, wasn't it still under warranty? This is just my opinion, but there is no reason an amp like that with those specs, should even break a sweat driving the 80's, something is just wrong.

I think I had my MPS-1 for almost 3 months with all the back/forth trial and error to resolve the issue, they agreed to give me a full refund. Sorry for your troubles.

One would presume a design flaw, I suffered with it for just under a month, I was happy to put it behind me as a failed experiment, too-good-to-be-true-I-shoulda-known-better, lately I'm trying not to resist my karma, which currently seems to be that whenever I try to go for a bargain or a shortcut it winds up costing me more in the long run to get what I want, puts a strange spin on the pursuit of the "sweet spot" that most of us here on the forums are trying to aim for.

Man, I have that same karma.

M80's. When I first got my system set up I would push 120-125 dB for extended periods and my DMC-1 (pre-pro) was actually warmer the the MPS-1!

Scott

I'm really surprised you had to pay return shipping given the problems you described with it. Bummer.

Maybe it had something to do with me using my Denon as a pre-pro, not sure.

I hope ill be trouble free,...I havent had a good amp in quite a while....... I am selling my rotel rb1090, as i keep clipping it, it runs out of power way to soon at 4 ohms, and it says it has 780 into 4 ohm and like 1.5 of headroom, so i dont see the full out 780 watts, as im clipping way to soon. does my pre-amp having 14v of gain make a difference..?

What dB level are you hitting when it's clipping? As I understand it, the RB1090 is a pretty damn powerful amp.

Hi Arkticdeth,

It's possible to clip the output of a preamp if you run the gain too high, which would result in audible distortion from your amplifier, in your case the Rotel. Where are you setting the preamp volume control?

Regards,
Alan

Further comment: A "preamp" is just a smaller amplifier that supplies gain, like any amplifier, and it can also be driven into clipping. Moreover, if you crank the preamp gain too high, it may overload the input circuitry of the power amplifier.

Alan

I find it hard to belive the rotel 1090 would have issues, isn't that the one Wid and RickF use, and they have m80's...

Your Rotel is better than the Emotiva stuff, in my opinion...

No Randy, we both use the 300w+(4 ohm) RB-1080 ... which is a less powerful amp. I've never heard anyone on any other forum ever having clipping issues with a 1090, that thing is a 100lb 2 channel beast.

I had to read twice to make sure it was indeed a 1090 he was referring to.

Try a different pre amp, the one your using has to much voltage gain.

That is what I thought, there must be something wrong, that Rotel should not break a sweat.

im not switching preamps, i LOVE my B&K pro-10 MC--best pre=-amp i have ever owned. no flaws evber, non stop use for over 10 years now!!

Sounds like you have it all figured out then, rock on.

Good luck selling the 1090. From what you have described, there's something wrong with it. There's no way it should be clipping.

I recently bought the XPA-2 and XPA-5 to run my 7.2 HT setup, Onkyo 805 and Yamaha 663 (I have three Radio Shack A/B switches to select between the Onkyo and Yamaha) as the pre/pro. The XPA-2 runs two M80s , no bridging. The XPA-5 powers 2 M22s and VP100 wired parallel for centers, and four QS8 for side and back surrounds. SVS PB-12 and Axiom EP125 for subs. I use the XPA-2 when listening to music in stereo mode. I think the Onkyo sounds a tad better than the Yamaha, but not by a lot of difference, just the Onkyo sounds more "natural" thru the XPAs. I listen in moderate levels, nothing over -10dbs on the volumn knob on both receivers. No problems with shutting down, love the XPAs!! If anyone can give suggestions on improving my set up, let me know :).

Maybe trying out the new pre from Emotiva might make a difference although I doubt it.

Glad to hear you are having no problems with the XPA 2. I think I may try one when I get some spare cash, a few years away at the moment.