I just got my QS8's in, but I have a mounting problem. The banana plugs stick out further than the wall bracket. This causes the speaker to rest on the plug and aim slightly upwards. Neither is acceptable. Any advice beyond going with bare wire or spades? Seems strange that a surround would not have more room for the plugs, as they use very good banana plugs on the QS8.
Unless you plan to unplug them frequently, just go with bare wire. I have two sets of QS8, one on the wall using bare wires and one set on stands using banana plugs.
If you do plan on needing to swap them (and would rather keep using the banana plugs) I suppose moving them to stands would work too. I've personally got my QS8s on stands with bare wire on the speaker and banana plugs on my amp. I seem to need to monkey (get it?!) with my source more than my speaker connections.
Spade lugs would work great and would provide plenty of clearance! Personally I use bare wire going into my QS surrounds.
Alright, bare wire it is.
Axiom should reposition the plugs so you can use terminated wire more easily. I have some good pre-terminated wire (Transparent Audio) and cutting it is not a wise option. With such quality lugs on the speaker I'm shocked this is an issue and thankful I did not run the wires yet in my new room. I'll make do, and look forward to hearing it all hooked up.
Thanks for the input.
Bare wire will work great with the QS8's. No need to get fixated on using Banana plugs because the only benefit they will provide is the convenience of disconnecting and hooking them back up. Since they are going on wall it is unlikely you will be moving them around too much.
Banana plugs do not offer any sound quality advantages over spades and bare wire so in the end nothing to be worried about :).
Hope you enjoy your QS8's!
Cheers,
I just hooked mine up as well (bare wire)wall mounted. They totally completed my HT experience! I just watched House of Flying Daggers and it sounded Awesome!
This has been this way for as long as I can remember, bare wire is the only way to go.
Not to be a pain, but I can't agree with you on the bare wire issue. While there is much BS in the wire industry, copper - no matter how pure - does corrode over time when exposed to air. That is why oxygen-free copper is so heavily advertised in audio wire. Corrosion at the contact point – exposed wire – can impact the connection and resulting sound quality, especially given how small the contact points are with a bare wire to binding post contact. Beyond the looks, that is why all good wire generally comes pre-terminated with gold plated contacts and corrosion resistant solder. In fact, the binding post is even gold plated. Gold does not corrode, thus the benefit at the contact point. Plus, spades and bananas provide more surface area for the contact to better conduct electricity. It is not just that they are easier to remove – although that is a benefit as well. This is a minor issue in a surround, I guess, but again I ask, why put such a good 5-way gold-plated binding post on a speaker if bare wire is the only likely choice - which is what I'm assuming based on the feedback. (And I do appreciate all the feedback.) After spending all this money I guess I just hate to have obvious weak links for no reason.
I have never used Axiom before, and I am generally pleased with the physical quality of the product so far (have not hooked them up yet) but this sticks out as an odd execution of an otherwise well designed product. Just my two cents, I’m sure it will sound great with bare wire. And as was mentioned, spades may still be an option - I just don't have pre-terminated spades at the moment.
Thanks all.
Thing is, Zimm, not everyone uses the QS8s with the supplied T-brackets; Axiom also sells other brackets and stands that can be used with it which do allow the use of banana plugs. I'm not really sure how one could reconfigure the binding posts to allow the use of banana plugs with flush mounting on the wall.
I would also point out that with banana plugs there's an extra contact surface that could potentially introduce problems, so I suspect it's kind of a wash.
Kcarlie, the mounting option issue is a good one that I didn't consider. As far as a fix, really it would only require increasing the depth of the plug housing an inch. That's why I find it strange - the fix is so easy and wall mounting has to be nearly, if not more, common for surrounds that stand mounting.
Anyway, no big deal. When THX declines to certify my man-room I'll complain that Axiom made me use bare wire. Until then, and I'd guess I have some time, I'll focus on the sound.
Thanks
Bare wire actually creates the best contact with the terminal because it avoids making additional connection points which can fail. This would have a negative effect on sound quality. I have had speaker wire oxidize on me in the past (jacket turned yellow) and I did not notice any difference in sound quality then the speaker wire I have now which is also even a higher gauge.
Doc, I guess this won't be the first time two listeners had a difference of opinion as to what sounds better.
What, next you going to tell me Guns N Roses' Appetite for Destruction was
not the best album of the 90's?
No doubt bare wire is best; the first day. After that, it goes down as a matter of physics as corrosion occurs around the surface of each strand of exposed wire; while terminated wire, on the other hand does not change, or changes dramatically slower. And the additional contact points argument is curious to me. Yes, a banana has about 5 times the amount of surface area contact - providing a similar affect to increasing the gauge of the wire. But having more surface area does not create more likelihood of failure points. If you mean the contact between the plug and the wire, I would agree that a screw terminal in the plug is as prone to corrosion as at the speaker terminal. Good solder is the key there. Even with screw downs, however, you gain the increase in surface area via spade or banana, which is my general preference.
Anyway, the horse called and asked that I stop beating him, so I'll move on. Thanks for the input. Hope to report back with a functioning system soon.
ahhh hum bug, I use old lamp chord that has plenty of corrosion, and in blind AB tests you will not be able to tell the difference between that and wire costing thousands...
I am not arguing what termination sounds better but the fact they will all sound the same :).
If the OP is dead set on connecting his QS speakers with banana plugs he can order this, or a similar recessed speaker binding plate from Parts Express for use as a recessed wall plate...that's exactly what I did whenever I built our room thinking it would make for a much cleaner looking installation but whenever I started fumbling around with trying to connect the banana plug installed jumper wires to the QS8's with the less than ideal working space,(T bracket, wall and speaker) I was working with I ditched that idea and went bare wire to speaker binding post, it worked out great and after the install nobody noticed the difference.
If a soldered speaker wire/banana plug to speaker binding post is what he's looking for, remove the two recessed speaker plate's binding post and use the holes in the plate as a pass-thru for that connection ... you may need to enlarge the holes or make one hole.
Parts Express Speaker Plates
So what exactly prevents the corrosion from happening to the bare wire screwed into the banana plug? As I see it, you're just moving the connection back a few inches.
That said, I use bananas on the receiver end of all of my cables and on the speaker ends of the towers.
Sir Quack, I must disagree. I have done that test and can tell you the difference b/w lamp cord and Transparent wire and Monster Z Series, etc., is real, but small. (Bare wire is a different issue - after spending much hard earned $, I fear the weak link of corrosion in the humidity drenched south. Heck, even peoploe corrode down here!)
But I spent a lot of time comparing wires and audible differences are there, even on my lower end system. Transparent was best for my price range, the Monster Z had great bass but had less clarity on the highs, lamp cord was weaker on both. I have also listed on a $100K+ setup, and found some of the cheaper (very relative term!) wire was better (to me) than some of the more expensive stuff. This is a case of severe diminishing marginal returns - the next $100 brings far fewer changes than the first $100. It could be all smoke and mirrors, but I believe the efforts made (in the little black boxes added to high end wire) to control known anomalies in analog signals when transmitted over copper over a set distance have an impact. There is no dispute the signal changes, look at any signal chart on the many studies of the issue. The question is does that change matter to you and is the impact good or not. That is up to the listener. Most studios seem to prefer special wire. If you don't notice a difference in your room, congrats. For me, it was worth the insane, but possible, price of admission to get some tech voodoo rubbed on my wire. (That sounds odd... :o)
Calvin, as I understand it, Non-corrosive solder. Prevents air and does not corrode on its own. Thus, pre-terminated wire has a significant advantage as there is no oxygen in the wire, and the connection is airtight. Otherwise, correct, the only benefit is the increased surface area of the contact points and ease of use.
I know I shouldn't get into this but, do you have a lab to test for these differences or is it the way these wires sound to your ears. I'm just curious.
Also if the wire does corrode at what rate and when can you hear the difference?
Without reading everything here since I am short on time and trying to go home... Bare wire is better than connecting to a banana plug! There, I said it. I love banana plugs for the "look" and each of disconnecting and reconnecting, but every time you make a connection, you run the risk of some level of signal degradation. Will you hear it? Most likely not, but it has been argued time and time again that bare wire offers the best connection from a signal point of view. Of course, you can get some really crappy wire and run into corrosion, but if you used that same wire and connected it to a banana plug, you'd still have crappy corroding wire.
There are test out there. As I have to leave the computer, I would take teeh cheap way out and say go to Transparent Audio's website. (there are others, I just recall that one was good.) I think they have some of that there. But I have over the years read studies by independant folk that show the changes to the signal over a run of copper. It may be my logic trumping my ears, but it seemed to back the audible differece. Time? I don't know. I figure it must occur at the electron level long before I see it, but that aint exactly scince. Sorry to open a can of worms I can't close.
Gotta run, will check back and hopefully some pro will point out the error of my ways.
Gotta say, a manufacturer's website is not the best place to get objective info about how their stuff performs. (pot, kettle, black yadda yadda)
Also, the name's not Calvin... Although that's not usually one I get. Charlie's a lot more common.
Come on Calvin loosen up and come listen to my speaker wire
kcarlile made the best advantage about banana plugs, that is using them on the back of the receiver which for the most part are tight, confined, cluttered areas. In this case banana plugs have a distinct advantage in creating the best contact (especially with a 10 awg wire). For that application I have found no better banana plug then the locking type from blue jeans cable. But going to the speaker itself it really does not matter, I have even put bare 10 awg wire into the binding posts of my Axioms with no issues
.
It's just been pointed out to me that my sig ends with --Calvin. That refers to the comic character from Calvin and Hobbes, the speaker of my quote. My name's Ken.
Ah! You might want to use double-quotes for the text then if it's a quote!
Ok, I'll bite. (insert Homer emoticon here)
I lived in Binghamton, NY for 25 years as Director of Acoustic Research at McIntosh Laboratory Inc. doing what I like best-- creating better sound. I initiated the loudspeaker line at McIntosh, developed many new concepts, received several patents and wrote several magazine articles.
Earlier, I was a senior engineer at the Sonotone Corporation, in Elmsford, NY. I designed several compact speaker systems and a wide variety of microphones.
I graduated from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in Troy, N.Y. with a degree in Electrical Engineering.
I am a life member in the AES and joined in 1960. Previously, I was a student member at RPI.
Who am I and what do I think about speaker wire?
Me
Zimm, welcome, but I have to call you for nonsense included in a couple of the posts. There's no solid evidence from properly controlled double-blind listening tests that any of the wire and cable stuff that we read from sellers who fall into the rip-off category(including Transparent Cable)exists in reality.
That was an interesting read Warrant. Nicely organized and documented. The irony is that in my field (Enterprise networking) I have to constantly remind people that using cheap cables will absolutely kill performance. Of course it's a different problem altogether but I find it ironic indeed.
Thanks for the link Warrant, it's an interesting read
Wow.... I have to bookmark that one and read it all the way through!!!
Mr. Russell's splendid article has of course been cited here probably dozens of times in the past few years as an aid to those who want to separate audio fact from fantasy.
Yeah, JohnK (I think) posted that link for me when I was making my speaker wire purcahse 12 months ago. Very informative stuff!
Also, the name's not Calvin
It's just been pointed out to me that my sig ends with--Calvin
Now, THAT'S Funny!
But then again it may have been Randy (sirquack) who posted the link.
Which reminds me... just where did the name "sirquack" come from anyway?
But his friends call him Calvin
It is a long story, but basically one of my friends used to have an email account on hotmail using that name, when he stopped using it I took it over for a screen name. I've been thinking about changing it since it sounds like I'm a psycho.
Well heck Warrant, why didn't you tell me before I spent money on cables and got into this long conversation based on years of reading junk science? Thanks for the information. I still find it strange that corrosion would not impact the quality of the electrical connection, as was my original point, but I'm glad to know it. Does that mean that the cheap gold-plated tin they sell as speaker wire is just as good as solid copper wire? Given the price of copper on the market I did not think lamp cord actually had much copper in it and thus would cause audible issues.
Glad to be wrong on this, now I can return the wire I just bought from Axiom and get some tin lamp cord.
Thanks for the info Warrant, I'm sure you have had to dispel the misunderstanding often.
But his friends call him Calvin
At least they do now...
Right Calvin?
So Warrant is Mr Russell? I had no idea, what an honor to have him stop by now and then on our little Axiom forum.
Mr. Russell, I have referred to your wire table for years, and have a link on my articles website page, hope that is ok with you..
http://porterplex.googlepages.com/links&articles
Is that what he meant? I thought that warrant had indicated in earlier posts that he was a relative newcomer to audio. I took it that the "who am I" format of the post was a playful way of bringing out Mr. Russell's qualifications.
JohnK, thanks for the welcome. I apologize if the nonsense offended you. With all the science that goes into the thousands we spend on audio and video, it was not hard for me to believe a corroded old lamp cord may not compare to quality solid copper cable with circuits to “balance the loads,” etc., etc. Of course, my original question was simply whether or not I could use a banana plug on the QS8, but no matter at this point.
But his friends call him Calvin
I always thought the k in kcarlile stood for Klein. Or sat down for Klein, since it's lowercase.
Is that what he meant? I thought that warrant had indicated in earlier posts that he was a relative newcomer to audio. I took it that the "who am I" format of the post was a playful way of bringing out Mr. Russell's qualifications.
That's the way I perceived his statement also John.
What, next you going to tell me Guns N Roses' Appetite for Destruction was not the best album of the 90's?
I know you are being light-hearted here, but, still, given the attention to detail that most forum members exhibit, I am surprised that no one has yet pointed out that
Appetite for Destruction came out in 1987.
Very good catch, JP!
Based on his statements about his career and location, that matches up with Mr. Russell, same town, same background. There are links on the Wire pages that take you back to the history of Mcintosh and Mr Russell (aka Warrant). I could be wrong, but not sure.
I know you are being light-hearted here, but, still, given the attention to detail that most forum members exhibit, I am surprised that no one has yet pointed out that Appetite for Destruction came out in 1987.
Medic8r, I may have to resign my login ID for that one.
The wire debate I don't mind being corrected on - I see others have been led astray before me. Forgetting how old I am getting and putting that album in the wrong decade is truly unforgivable. Does it make any difference that it was better than most of the music in the '90s? I guess not. My apologies, and all are welcome to ignore my future posts based on that glaring error on my part. Thanks for the catch.
If it still bothers you that much not being able to use banana plugs, you can buy the QS8 stands here, find a similiar desisgn from another manufacturer that could support them or if you are really handy make some DIY stands. In that application you would have no issues with using the banana plugs with your QS8's.
...and finally.
After being publicly reprimanded for my belief in ferries, Big Foot and magic wires, I went to Home Depot and bought some cheap tin on a spool to temporarily run my QS8s. What do you know, they work - no copper needed. I ran a few scenes from Hancock and put a few heavy surround games of War hawk through them. While I have not done any critical listening yet, I can say I'm impressed that on the movie soundtrack they disappear and made my small theater seem a bit bigger than I anticipated. Yet, on War hawk they still exhibited pinpoint accuracy on circling jets and zipping missiles in the background. I formerly had Klipsch (CDT-3800-C) in-ceiling 8" surrounds in a bigger mixed-use room, and these are much more pleasing to the ear so far. I'm anxious to do some critical listing of Blu-Ray music and will report back. Then again, I turned in my ID for blowing the G&R reference, so maybe I'll post my experience somewhere else???
)
If it still bothers you that much not being able to use banana plugs, you can buy the QS8 stands here, find a similiar desisgn from another manufacturer that could support them or if you are really handy make some DIY stands. In that application you would have no issues with using the banana plugs with your QS8's.
Due to the room set up stands are not an option for me, but thanks for the idea. I have recently come to learn that I can use an old extension cord from the garage and plug it right into the binding post, so I am off the banana-plug train. See, I can learn.
Thanks for the help. I hope to have more challenging problems in the future.
That was an interesting read Warrant. Nicely organized and documented. The irony is that in my field (Enterprise networking) I have to constantly remind people that using cheap cables will absolutely kill performance. Of course it's a different problem altogether but I find it ironic indeed.
Without beating the corpse of this horse too much further into a pulp, I am curious why there is a difference? Analog v. digital signals?
Then again, I turned in my ID for blowing the G&R reference, so maybe I'll post my experience somewhere else???
)
You can win your way back in by posting photos. People here really like photos!
So Warrant is Mr Russell? I had no idea, what an honor to have him stop by now and then on our little Axiom forum.
Mr. Russell, I have referred to your wire table for years, and have a link on my articles website page, hope that is ok with you..
http://porterplex.googlepages.com/links&articles
I AM NOT ROGER RUSSELL!It was a "who am I" post in the style of a game show. FronT page Challenge for the Canucks here.
Hey Rodger is back
You can win your way back in by posting photos. People here really like photos!
Ah, thanks for the tip. Once I get the QS8's wire run in a less-frat house manner, I will put up a few pics of my humble mancave/glorious home theater. I'll need them when I beg for help with SW positioning and reflection dampening anyway. I'll have to figure out how to post pics, but I'm sure that info is on the site. (Don't want to hijack the thread; yet again.)
Thread hijacking is what we do best
And sometimes thread high-jacking with slight title changes to help with confusion!
Thread hijacking? never heard of it, I think we all just have ADD, which is why we have a resident psychologist on the forum.
Thread hijacking? never heard of it, I think we all just have ADD, which is why we have a resident psychologist on the forum.
Very good to know. I have a few "daddy" issues I'd like to work out with all of you...
He's not a psychologist, he's a psychiatrist. Which means he won't listen to you, but he will give you drugs.
Zimm, just to beat a dead horse, I don't doubt that corrosion probably would play a part in your rather humid environment, but in many areas, it's not a concern. I disagree with you about the cable quality issue; as long as a cable has negligible impedance (which copper lamp cord of the appropriate gauge for the distance does), it's going to transport the signal reliably. No one has suggested using tin wire. That's a common chestnut by the cable aficionados around here...
Calvin's Common Cable Chestnuts.
Not to confuse things, but my understanding was that corrosion would be a problem but only if the wire was corroded when you hooked it up. The wire will corrode over time but only in the parts exposed to the air -- the part which actually makes contact normally stays shiny.
As to why cable quality makes a difference in enterprise networking, my 2 cents would be that (a) the distances are much longer, (b) the signals are digital and extremely high frequency, (c) the differences between cheap cables and crappy cables tend to be in termination and twist consistency, not in the wire itself.
Oh yeah, and (d) there are a bazillion cables so if 0.01% have problems you still spend half your life troubleshooting
No one has suggested using tin wire
Absolutely, no one suggested using tin. I raised the question in response to Warrant's detailed review of myths associated with expensive wire. I was just curious how far this goes. The spool of what I call "lamp cord" or "zip cord" that I bought at Home Depot last night for $.50/ft is, in fact, tin. I believe most cheap wire is. One side is copper plated, but both sides conduct via tin. Real copper is expensive. Is it the accepted view that "lamp cord" as used in this forum, is a reference to real copper wire? Not debating, just asking.
Lamp cord and zip cord are terms older than my experience as I have only been buying speaker wire since about '88 (and I don’t make lamps?). By then tin was taking over the bargain bins I had access to. And,
dare I ask, what is the problem with tin? Not a sarcastic question, I'm really interested in this stuff and I've lost all my confidence in the myths I have bought into over the years...
By way of background, I actually began trusting the wire companies to some level based on years of setting up systems in cars, where interference and corrosion and other harsh environmental factors did make a huge difference. (I don’t want to debate that so please just ignore that invite to hijack if you think I dreamed that up.) Better cables made significant audible difference, especially in the low level lines where hiss, hum, and buzz, were common with cheap wire. Crossing power cords at 90 degrees helps, etc., etc. So believing some of the marketing hype of the wire companies was not so hard for me. This discussion has been eye opening. Thanks to all.
Without beating the corpse of this horse too much further into a pulp, I am curious why there is a difference? Analog v. digital signals?
The difference has a lot to do with the higher bandwidth digital signal. Interference, crosstalk, and signal attenuation are a big issue when running at gigabit speeds, and the higher quality Cat-6 cables contain correctly-twisted pairs of conductors and use higher-quality connectors.
He's not a psychologist, he's a psychiatrist. Which means he won't listen to you, but he will give you drugs.
Even better!!
I don't fully appreciate the difference, but I won't divert the thread further. Thanks for the info.
Better cables made significant audible difference, especially in the low level lines where hiss, hum, and buzz, were common with cheap wire. Crossing power cords at 90 degrees helps, etc., etc. So believing some of the marketing hype of the wire companies was not so hard for me. This discussion has been eye opening. Thanks to all.
This would be due to poor shielding in lesser cables and with automotives, you have a not so great AC generator that has questionable filtering capabilites at best, with lots of RF signals from the engine, which is why shielding is all the more important. For home use, the shielding of low level lines is still important but not as much. This leads to speaker cables which are not shielded at all, well most of them, because the signal to the speakers is a higher voltage and less susceptible to interference.
...home use, the shielding of low level lines is still important but not as much. This leads to speaker cables which are not shielded at all, well most of them, because the signal to the speakers is a higher voltage and less susceptible to interference.
That explanation I actually understood. Thanks Jake[wash].
The difference has a lot to do with the higher bandwidth digital signal. Interference, crosstalk, and signal attenuation are a big issue when running at gigabit speeds, and the higher quality Cat-6 cables contain correctly-twisted pairs of conductors and use higher-quality connectors.
On a loosely related topic, for over a year I've been annoyed with the fact that the computer I built with a gigabit NIC would not connect at Gigabit speeds to my router... Since initially screwing around with it when I built the computer (1.5 years ago), I had since given up and stopped thinking about it.
However, I upgraded my router on Cyber Monday (to wireless N) and at that point it began to annoy me again that the computer still wasn't connecting at 1 gbps. Come to find out... the whole time the cable was at fault. It was an old POS Cat5 cable... grabbed a newer Cat6 cable yesterday and voila... 1GBPS connection. I realize this is not an issue of quality, but of spec, but still... After 1.5 years... DUH!
Jason
Zimm, what are you talking about? Tin is a metal with much higher electrical resistance than copper and as far as is known is never used in the electrical wire commonly bought for connecting speakers. It may be called by such generic names as "lamp cord", "power cord", "speaker wire","zip cord", etc. but in all cases it's better than 99.9% pure copper. My own usage has always been 16ga lamp cord connected directly to receiver and speaker terminals.
I remember one time I was setting up a bedroom set up and used an old extension cord for speaker wire, no joke.
The spool of what I call "lamp cord" or "zip cord" that I bought at Home Depot last night for $.50/ft is, in fact, tin. I believe most cheap wire is. One side is copper plated, but both sides conduct via tin. Real copper is expensive. Is it the accepted view that "lamp
I'm pretty sure that even the cheapest lamp cord is copper on both sides with one side tinned, but I can't imagine tin wires. Maybe you're seeing aluminum wire ? I didn't think that was still being used, but maybe I'm just out of touch.
Zimm, there is no such thing as Tin wiring at the Depot. Are you talking about Tin Coating? If so, that is just a coating over the copper to make it easy to keep polarity in line, it is still 99+% copper as JohnK mentions.
He may mean aluminum... Either way, copper or aluminum "lamp cord" would be fine if the gauge was right.
Boy, I can stir some stuff up! I'm not a metallurgist (surprise), but I think copper is brownish. One side of this stuff is silver - and I'm quite sure it aint real silver. I thought that was tin, or some other much cheaper metal of the silver-ish family. Aluminum seems possible, but I would think the stiffness of aluminum would cause cracking (again, not a metallurgist but I have welded aluminum, and I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night, and aluminum is pretty stiff, including the wire). Perhaps lead with a tin veneer to make it shiny? Either way, if it is copper, it is a strange color all the way through – tricked me, sorry to offend all those lamp cord fans. If it is not, and the other side is copper (b/c it is brownish), does it matter. I guess not, sounds like just about any conductive piece of metal (or wood, I guess) works without audible degradation by the group's experience. Tonight I was going to try connecting the speakers but running the signal through my 7 year old, but perhaps that is for another thread.
I'll pull the spool out of the trash and see if I can find a metal content to end the mystery. But I've dealt with a lot of copper wire (and aluminum wire) on the industrial side, so I'm pretty sure this stuff is not copper, but I would not want to disagree with those who have much more experience with silver copper wire. I would point out that the HDepot website just says this stuff is “copper and silver colored wire”. Not 99% pure copper as some have surmised. (Confirm for yourself:
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stor...ctId=100560760)Perhaps all of this is a reason to get ripped off at BB and get some Monster cable - at least I feel confident it is copper (even ifs in a smaller diameter than they try to sell it as). Wow, what a long road this has become.
So don't buy the one with a silver colored side. I happen to know that home depot sells two stranded copper wire of various gauges. Yeesh.
Zimm:
Don't feed the Monster. Check out something like
this at Monoprice, a very well-liked and reliable cable and wire supplier!
So don't buy the one with a silver colored side. I happen to know that home depot sells two stranded copper wire of various gauges. Yeesh.
Look, I have my wire so I'm not pushing some agenda. This is all for discussion purposes as so many quickly said lamp cord is the best. Let's be clear, the only wire at that Home Depot websight says is copper,
not copper colored, is the name brand name speaker wire by the companies that rip you off. I was looking for the often cited "cheap lamp cord" and what I got aint copper. Again, I don't care, I have wire on order that is copper. Just saying, all you lamp cord fans may want to tell the uninformed like me that the cheap wire you are talking about is not the stuff the sales guy at HD will call lamp cord. Its the stuff from AR and Monster and the other evil doers. Just saying. "Yeesh", exactly.
Don't feed the Monster. Check out something like this at Monoprice, a very well-liked and reliable cable and wire supplier!
Thank you Mark. That is helpful information. I have also had good luck with HDMI and optics at BlueJeanscable.com (it think that is right) for anyone looking for a deal on non-monster (pun intended) wire. Never knew I could excite so many people with lamp cord.
Never knew I could excite so many people with lamp cord.
I should clarify. I was being sarcastic; it is a very good thing that so many actually came out to share their informed opinion. The fervor over lamp cord surprised me, but I look forward to the same zeal when I need to kill a peak at 50hz in my theater.
What I'm talking about is the big spools of electrical wire that you get at Home Depot, not whatever they have on their website (which is horrid, as an aside). I've never used the term lamp cord, and I probably won't, due to that very issue. But you don't have to buy AR or Monster to get 14 gauge stranded copper wire. Go to a store, use the old mark 1s, and buy the 14 gauge stranded copper wire.
I betcha if someone took took the same gauge speaker wire from any of the hundreds or thousands of manufacturers ... lamp cord, Home Depot, Monster, Monoprice, BlueJeans, Radio Shack, Lowes, China, Western Auto, Walmart, India or whoever and totally mixed the outside casings so that nobody knew what wire was in what casing the end result would be that no eff'n body would ever know the difference and it would more than likely remain that way for years and years of service on these wires.
Point A to point B ... it ain't rocket science kiddos.
I have
this from monoprice as I prefer 12 gauge and am willing to spend the few extra dollars for the larger gauge just in case I and up with a long run. I also have the Axiom bulk 12 gauge speaker wire and to me, if looks and plyability are of greater concern, I would go with the Axiom.
I bought the Axioum wire with the $100 gift certificate I got with the QS8s - the best deal around. Probably not necessary based on this thread, but makes me feel warm and fuzzy after all the cash I dropped on the system over the years.
Enjoy!
Definitely a good use of the GC. Lots of folks have bought the Axiom wire for the same reasons in the past (the warm fuzzy). You're not alone!
Also, keep in mind, the logic works in reverse as well. If you ever have a lamp cord that needs replacing, you can rewire it with some super-snazzy Axiom cable and be the envy of all your friends.
Jason
You'll need to keep the Axiom lamp cord elevated off of the floor in order for it to operate the lamps properly though ... it's written in the instruction pamphlet.
You'll need to keep the Axiom lamp cord elevated off of the floor in order for it to operate the lamps properly though ... it's written in the instruction pamphlet.
Thanks Rick, I have that taken care of. I found a custom set of rare-earth Scandium and moon rock wire levitators in a A/V bazaar in Myanmar. They were hand crafter by a 600 year old AV guru using the bones of vanquished lamp cord dealers. I think they will keep the signal pure...and the darn things levitate the wire right off the ground!
**UPDATE**
I watched Dark Night on BDR disk last night, and WOW. Great transfer. The IMAX scenes (70mm film) are truly fantastic, even on my humble 50” DLP. The blacks are great, and the sound is my new reference standard. The Axiom surrounds really held their own at high SPL levels (with bare tin wire!!). The levitating Scandium wire holders are surely going to spice it up a notch!
But I do now wonder how much better it would have been in Dolby True HD... Time to upgrade.
What I'm talking about is the big spools of electrical wire that you get at Home Depot, not whatever they have on their website (which is horrid, as an aside). I've never used the term lamp cord, and I probably won't, due to that very issue. But you don't have to buy AR or Monster to get 14 gauge stranded copper wire. Go to a store, use the old mark 1s, and buy the 14 gauge stranded copper wire.
"Calvin"
if that is not your real name! - I think that is where I may have missed the boat on this long conversation. I (and others in the unwashed masses, I bet) thought you were talking about the spools of wire in the "Audio/Video" section at Home D, et al. But you are talking about the real copper wire sold in the electrical section, with Romex and the like. I got it. I hope this helps other newbies like me save a few coins by avoiding the it-aint-tin wire I picked up.
Thanks for the clarification.
Charles
Have a look at this well written article from 2000. Number 1 applies to this thread (but do read numbers 2 thru 10 as well).
http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf
Dewd...Yeah, I know, I KNOW. It still strikes me as surprising that after all the craftsmanship and tight tolerances we pay for, a coat hanger can be as effective as a precision product in terms of carrying the very purpose of the whole system - the analog signal. But I relent - bare copper ore still in the rock with a coat hanger stuck in each end it is! Hook that puppy up and fire up Batman.
Thanks for bringing in real articles though. The verbal slamming was starting to cause a migraine.
Charles(since you used it above, I'll assume that's your real name, just as Ken is really Ken, despite his quote from Calvin), I'm glad to see that you appreciate relevant articles, so I'll give you a couple to chew on. Part of your wire quandary appears to arise out of the concept that the wire is "carrying" the audio information, but it really isn't in the way that's often imagined. The short version is that the information that reaches the speakers is carried in an electromagnetic wave that travels along the outside of the wire at around 3/4ths of the speed of light. A small part of the energy penetrates into the wire and latches on to the electrons there(which barely move)to guide the wave, but that energy is lost as heat in traveling through the wire and doesn't directly contribute to the sound from the speakers. So the real action is outside the wire and what happens inside just involves a supporting role. Although the resistance in the wire should be low so that little of the wave energy is lost and more doesn't have to be drawn in, the type of metal, the configuration of the strands etc. isn't otherwise significant. Analogies to water flowing through a hose are quite inaccurate and maybe a railroad track is a little closer.
The first article is also from the Audio Critic and involves a discussion by an authority on electromagnetic wave propagation debunking, in language some of which is non-academic, claims about wire. See
issue no.24 and read the the letter quoted by Dr. Rich beginning at p.76(pdf 68)and continued at p.81(pdf 73).
Also, see the discussion to similar effect by Dr. Lesurf in the material he first prepared as introductory material for his students in electronics and physics at St. Andrew's University. In
parts 6.2 and 6.3 the point is made, supported by math which can just be skimmed over, that the real information is carried on the outside of the wire. If the electrons did it directly the sound would take minutes to reach the speakers instead of less than a millionth of a second.
As always, fascinating stuff John. Thanks for the links.
Jason
So the real action is outside the wire..
John, thanks a ton. While I do appreciate all the opinions (and occasional unrebuttable proof) that the wire does not matter, this actually helps cure the "why" that has persistently bothered me about this topic. It has always puzzled me that such a seemingly critical aspect of the theater can be so inconsequential. I didn't doubt my own ignorance, but appreciate the material to fix it.
Thanks again, Charles
I bought the Axioum wire with the $100 gift certificate I got with the QS8s - the best deal around. Probably not necessary based on this thread, but makes me feel warm and fuzzy after all the cash I dropped on the system over the years.
Enjoy!
Yep, the Axiom wire is great - heavy gauge but real flexible and doesn't keep crawling out into the middle of the room like my Home Depot wire does (although the "two wires in a jacket" Home Depot wire seems to be better than regular lamp cord in that respect). Axiom also doesn't claim that their wire will sound any better, which gets them extra points in my book
I agree. The Axiom wire is very nice to work with--great flexibility and feel to the outer insulation. Quality stuff.
I agree. The Axiom wire is very nice to work with--great flexibility and feel to the outer insulation. Quality stuff.
I used the Axiom wire because when I laid along the baseboard, it stayed along the baseboard. The only problem I had with it was being careful when I stripped the ends. The very fine wire makes it easy to clip a few off with wire stripper.
Well, just to tie a bow on this thread by bringing it back to the original post: I got the wire -
and the Axiom banana plugs!
Of course, I can't actually use the plugs on the QS8s, but no matter, it's not worth returning them.
It's always nice to have extra banana plugs lying around. I certainly have a few pair....
Yeah, me too. You never know when they'll come in handy.
the Axiom wire is great - heavy gauge but real flexible and doesn't keep crawling out into the middle of the room....
John, are you sure you don't still have mice problems?
… the real information is carried on the outside of the wire.
John, strangely, I feel better about my ignorance now. After reading way too much of that information, I can see where well intended folk such as myself can learn just enough to be dangerous and buy into some of the claims of the cable industry. It seems that a lot of what they say is 3/4 true, it just does not make a difference in the audible signal – i.e., skin effects, LIZ v. Solid v. Strands, twisted pair per frequency, etc. Very interesting stuff.
But I have a follow up: based on the fields being transmitted around the outside of the wire, how easy is it to alter a signal with a stray RF or Electromagnetic field? In short, how important is shielding and what works best - foil or non-conductive material? I’ve heard it is of no concern at the signal levels of speaker wire, but now that I know it is not a stream of electrons running through the “hose”, I'm curious if the field is any stronger on higher level (voltage or amps??) signals and thus immune from interference.
I just can’t let this thread end!
I’ve heard it is of no concern at the signal levels of speaker wire, but now that I know it is not a stream of electrons running through the “hose”, I'm curious if the field is any stronger on higher level (voltage or amps??) signals and thus immune from interference.
Depends on how big the source is that is causing the interference, but for most our HT applications the field around the speaker wire is quite strong and is immune to any interference we would have in our homes.
Sometimes my telepathic powers cause interference.
What was that strang buzzing sound I had a second ago through the M80s.......
John, are you sure you don't still have mice problems?
I haven't seen mice in the house for quite a while. Maybe they don't like peanut butter any more. I suspect the wire itself is the issue because if I stomp on the floor a few times the wire gradually straightens itself out and creeps from the corners into the middle of the floor.
I am still seeing mice everywhere else though. I was driving into work this morning - cold, windy, maybe 6 inches of snow on the ground, but the roads were bare. Thought I saw something moving on the road ahead; sure enough a mouse was running across the road. I swerved so my tires didn't get him, and when I looked back he had turned around and was running back the way he came, much faster this time.
Charles, it would be extremely unlikely that any home environment would have electromagnetic fields strong enough to significantly affect the relatively strong signals that are traveling along a speaker wire into the low impedance of a speaker, so as you note, for all practical purposes speaker wiring can be said to be immune from interference. Shielding therefore isn't required to protect the signals traveling to the speaker.
The signals traveling along an interconnecting cable, by contrast, are about a thousand times weaker than the amplified signals going to the speakers and can be affected by interference in the home. So, coaxial cable which has an outer shield to contain the signals and protect them from outside fields is typically used and is generally satisfactory. Some professional applications where especially high interference over long distances is encountered use instead a balanced connection setup which employs a different method to cancel outside interference which impinges on the cable.
Thank you John, now I can enjoy my speaker wire without that tweaking bug chewing away at my enjoyment - "could it be better, i bet it could?"
But I still think that levitating wire made of moon rock is going to help just a bit extra. Just say’en.
Convincing, isn't he.
I suspect this is all leading up to him marketing his own "Signature series" brown lampcord speaker wires.
(complete with maintenance kit: wire strippers, Tarnex, and moss remover)
How increadibly eye-opening this thread has been! OMG I can't even count all of the beliefs I used to hold that have forever been turned on their ear! I feel like the rug has been pulled right out from underneath all of my former (imaginary) knowledge on audio, and the reality that I've been 'taken for a ride' all of these years is smacking me in the face just like when Neo discovered the fallacy of the 'Matrix'!!!
It couldn't have come at a better time though. If I was going to learn all of this stuff, now (as I am completely re-purchasing everything that I lost in the fire) would definately be the time! My search for the 'latest & greatest' audio wire to give me the best sound possible has come to a screeching halt! Off to Radio Shack I go. Oh, and the $150 dollar Monster Cable 'Surge Protector/Power Conditioner' I was eyeballing to replace the one I lost (yes, I hold my head in shame as I admit to lining the pockets of those over at 'Monster Cable' for the last 10+ years)... HA, it can stay right there on the shelf collecting dust until the next uninformed shmuck parts ways with his hard-earned cash on it!
This has completely reversed my thinking process on this subject. From now on when I'm over at a friends house checking out his 'Top of the Line' Hi-Fi system, the cheaper the speaker cable I find he's running... the MORE impressed I'll be!
Glad I'm not the only one...
This has completely reversed my thinking process on this subject. From now on when I'm over at a friends house checking out his 'Top of the Line' Hi-Fi system, the cheaper the speaker cable I find he's running... the MORE impressed I'll be!
It's hard to tell sarcasm on the net. I hope you were not being sarcastic, because (for the most part), wire is wire for speaker cables. If you weren't, my apologies, and enjoy your (cheaper than you would have spent) system!
My work here is done...*closes door*
Don't go too far, there is always next week.
Micah - if you were serious, don't go to Radio Shack. Their cables are incredibly marked up and overpriced. Look at Monpoprice.com for a good combination of quality and price.
Jason
No sarcasm at all. I've been spending a great deal of time on the supplied links in this thread & crying over all the wasted money I've spent over the years on previous systems. I would estimate (this is no joke) that I had a good $750 dollars spent on wire in my last HTS, & that DOES NOT include the Monster Cable Power Conditioner/Surge Protector that I dropped a good $150 on.
No that was certainly a sincere post. I do employ sarcasm in many of my posts (I'm a sarcastic guy by nature, but good hearted... I use sarcasm for humor, not degregation), but I have truely been completely taken back by the information I've just been exposed to. Where the hell have they been hiding all this stuff???
My comparison to the Matrix is about as close as it gets. I really do feel like I've been brainwashed, and now the truth has set me free. This website just saved me a TON of money!!! Thanks to all who have shown me the light!
Micah, for our services you owe us roughly $800.
Sean likes everything roughly.
Micah, the sad part is for every one of you that sees the light there are a few more that get sucked into the dark.
You have to admit though there is something sexy about cable lifts.
I'm sure they do make a difference.
See?
Mapleshade records couldn't possibly be wrong?
Isn't that sexy sound?
now THAT is serious sarcasm!!
As part of my learning materials assigned by the many informed forum members trying to unbrainwash me about amps and wires, I came across the following. I am glad to see there is at least some solid support for the concept that the connections used can be a source of problems. Not a big problem, but here humidity is a big issue so corrosion is also a constant process. I recently trimmed my center channel wire and was able to confirm that in less than 1 year the copper had visually corroded. Anyway, enjoy the reading material from
Roger Russell Speaker and Amplifier Connectors
The connection between the power amplifier output terminals and speaker input terminals is almost always a pressure device of some sort. It's unfortunate that these important connections are determined by to how tight you can turn a binding post or screwdriver or by the pressure of a spring which holds the speaker wire against the metal of the terminal. The metals that are forced against each other are often different. They might be brass or steel but plated with other metals. The wire could be copper or silver and perhaps coated with solder containing tin. They expand and contract differently with temperature. They can also become oxidized over time and the connection can become bad to the point where the resistance is significant compared to the resistance in the rest of the circuit. Dissimilar metals can also promote corrosion with action like a battery when they are in a humid environment. This eventually causes not only higher resistance but also clearly audible distortion as if a diode were inserted in series with the speaker and amplifier.
Suppose you have a system with adequately heavy speaker wire but the connections have gone bad over time. Simply removing and cleaning the wires and terminals and reconnecting them can make an audible difference. Incidentally, this is what can happen if the old wire is replaced with a new "miracle" speaker wire. By disturbing the terminals this can "accidentally" improve the contacts when the new wire with its clean surface is installed. A difference can be heard but not because of the new wire. The same change can be heard by simply cleaning the old wire/terminal contacts and reconnecting them.
Ah, you say gold plating takes care of all that. That isn't always true, particularly if the wire is tinned with solder, which is at least 50% tin, and the connecting post is gold plated. Here's what J. J. Whitley, Research Associate at AMP Incorporated (a well-known connector manufacturer) has to say about mating tin-plated contacts with gold. "In most cases, lubricated tin contacts can be mated with gold-plated contacts. This combination works as long as the conditions of contact force and stability for tin contacts are met."
"There is one major exception--where the service conditions involve wet or humid environments. Under these conditions, the gold-tin bimetallic junction is subject to galvanic corrosion. Generous application of protective lubrication is one way to alleviate this problem."
It would seem logical that instead of connecting the output wires inside the power amplifier to the output terminals, the wires should be wrapped and soldered directly to the speaker wires. Then, in turn, the other end of the speaker wires should be wrapped and soldered directly to the speakers, or crossover network. This is not practical, of course, unless the amplifier and speaker are integrated in the same cabinet.
For the truth about speaker wire, see my Speaker Wire History Page.
Speaker Wire History
While I personally don't feel this article would be useful in an arguement to promote any particular brand or design of speaker wire, I can certainly agree with what is almost humorously the obvious,
Yes, when things break or degrade (corrosion) they certainly don't work as good any more and Yes, it is, of course, better to apply materials and strategies to avoid or prolong the time before degradation.
Side track:: If only most car manufacturers could adopt this philosophy.
Side track:: If only most car manufacturers could adopt this philosophy.
But then they would sell even less cars and charge 3 times the price, planned obsolescence is the only way to go for them.