hello I'm back again!

My living room is around 12x12 and I currently have a pair of m22/qs8/vp100 + a 12" psb sub.

I have a wall in front of me and to the right.. the left side is leading to the kitchen and there is a fireplace behind my seating position. I have a projector and 120' image.

I know it may sound insane but is there anyone who placed a pair of m80 in a similar setup?

It's not that my sound is bad but I do think my m22 lacks any punch. My sub can deliver but I don't know, It's like I feel I'm missing something but I don't know what.

Might be your setup, how is your crossover set on the receiver for the m22's? I assume 80hz? Do you have them set to small?

Others have m80's in that room size, that is a lot of speaker though.

So your listening area is 12X12 but is open to more space right? Going with this, I think it's not really the speakers, it's your sub. It's not able to pressurize the entire room properly. I have M22s and M80s in a 12X16 area that is open to another 12X16 area in an 'L' shape and when the M22s are paired with the SVS PB13 Ultra in this space, they have a similar impact as my M80s and PB13. I ran my M22s with a lesser quaility(?) sub than your PSB and I too thought it was my M22s, so I went for the floorstanders. I then upgraded my sub and tried out the M22s with the new sub and was surprised to find the problem to be more associated with the sub than the speakers.

I have found many retail subs to lack the sheer output and smoothness of SVS, Axiom, Hsu etc., especially in the lower to mid price ranges.

Having said all that, I do still find a touch more impact/fullness with the M80s/PB13 than with the M22'/PB13 but it is something only someone that is very picky about their sound would notice and I would think most likely only under A/B listening tests.

If you are not really looking to upgrade the sub then yes, you will get more from the M80s than the M22s, especially in the lower ranges and sheer SPL output. I now fill my entire room with sound from just the M80s/sub(sub not really required), where I had to use multichannel stereo mode/sub to really fill up the space when running the M22's.

Informative post.

crossover is set to 80hz , speakers are set to large and receiver set to Subwoofer-Plus , which means that the base is sent to both SW and front speakers.

Luc, there shouldn't be any more "punch" than the recorded material contains, and I can certainly say that the M22s deliver that, especially in a small room such as yours. My preference would be to run the M22s "small" with an 80Hz crossover, which therefore wouldn't use the "plus" setting on the subwoofer assignment.

when I listen to music in general I usually use the extended stereo mode. Both m22 and qs8 are fed with the same stereo signal and the result is not bad. The bass is somewhat different because if you move inside the room you will ear a different tone when you go near the qs8 or m22. I don't really have any complaints regarding my sub. I don't remember hearing one of better quality (to be honest I never checked the ones that were out of reach and I had this one for 12 years). My sub is the component I never intended to change.

I will try to post a pic tomorrow, there is a chance that my QS8 may be placed at the wrong spot.

I just feel sometime that I'm missing the WOW factor, when my sub is turned on, you know who's delivering the punch if it's off, nothing special. My friend bought a pair of Mirage omni 550 for 400$ and boy, you have the wow factor right away. He doesn't have any sub but I was surprised. I never compared the two side by side. Maybe my m22 shines somewhere else. I just find them very discreet.


If I get the m80 the m22 would go on my computer to replace my Axiom AX1.5!

I can keep my m22 also, I just feel something's missing or badly configured.

my AVR is a pio vsx-1018

I'm not really an expert when it comes to this but there is something fundamentally wrong for me when you ask me to set it to small.

For me it's like you're asking me this: do you accept to send less lower-frequencies to the speaker you bought because it has more bass than the AX1.5 I was upgrading from?

In my head, the small is the 'not good enough' setting. I can hardly select it! :-)

should the QS8 also be set to small?

what's the point of getting bigger speakers if we set them to small after! :-) you see where I'm going..

I know the sub is built for low frequencies I just want the whole package to blow the house, not just one! :-)

Yes, the QS8s should certainly also be set small. The entire concept of bass management in HT receivers such as your 1018 is that the sub gets the frequencies which it handles best, and takes some of the lowest bass load off the other speakers so that they can play the other frequencies a little more cleanly.

Just for giggles try setting the speakers to "small". When I changed my receiver to "plus", I had noticeably less bass. I think the sub and the mains were canceling each other.

setting speakers to small filter lower frequencies.. does this imply that I should modify each channel's EQ to boost mid frequencies?

should I rely on the settings given by the automatic calibration process of the vsx-1018?

Oh, you even have the exact same receiver as I do.

Setting a speaker to small, causes the receiver to roll off frequencies below 80 Hz (by default; that is selectable, but the next lower 50 Hz seems too low for most speakers), while taking the information which is removed and sending it to the sub instead. There's no reason to change the EQing.

I found the MCACC does a wonderful job of calibration. Even better if you go to the custom, and allow it sample 3 positions for phase alignment. I also prefer the independent EQing for each channel rather than the symmetrical pairs. If you need help with getting it to run through that mode let me know, I'll give you a step-by-step when I get home.

Don't EQ the mids - not yet anyway. All you are doing by setting to small is rolling off the signal to the M22s. Don't just trust us, look at THX, Dolby, etc. They all suggest this. The PLUS setting could be an issue as Neon points out. What few sub-80hz notes the M22 is really generating may be cancelled out by the sub if the phase is off. That would give you a big hole in the range suck out the punch.

In my room, it turns out the plus setting is smoother, but I'm running tower speakers that can render good notes into the 50hz range. Go one step at a time. None of these are permanent, you can always go back to your original set up - which you don't seem happy with!

Even more so, the Pioneer gives you 6 memory locations, so you can easily A/B(C/D/E/F) the various settings.

Even better.

I did the calibration when I bought it but now I'm running with my own custom EQing. I may have made it worse.. who knows..

I'm not aware of the custom three positions sampling.. will investigate that.. thanks

Will have to open the manual for this, I don't know hot it works!

since you're having the same AVR, can you suggest your own personal taste regarding your listening configuration?

I use a xbox 360 for gaming and HD-DVD
I use a PS3 for all DVD and bluray

I normally listen to :
- music in extended stereo (5.1 stereo)
- movies, I use Auto Surround (for dvd,hd-dvd and bluray)

If you find it, be aware that the sampling order is: secondary, tertiary, and primary.

The receiver attempts to adjust for nulls and peaks a the primary first, and then the second and third as long as there is no conflict with the previous. The EQ adjustment is only measured from the primary.

If you hit the audio parameter button on the remote you can chose between memories M1 through M6. Some settings under that are specific to the memory location and others are global (the manual details this), but generally the ones listed first are specific and the global ones are later.

When running the MCACC in standard mode it'll store into the memory you currently have selected (you might be able to change this before running, I don't recall for sure). In the custom it asks you what you want to store where.

There's also a memory management where you can copy one memory location to another. That's handy for when you want to make a change but want to preserve the old settings to A/B.

EQ: On
S-Wave: On
Delay: 0.0 (but I have an HDMI 1.3 plasma so I use the auto-delay)
Mid/Ldn: Off (although it might be worth using either of these if watching a movie late at night and not wanting to disturb anyone--Midnight, or playing music at low levels and wanting a little bass boost--Loudness)
Bass/Treble: 0
S.Rtrv: Off (I don't listen to MP3s)
DNR: Off (Although I should have tried it with the first half of the Tori Amos live BD)
Dialog E: Off
Hibit: On (which is not the default)
Dual: Ch1
DRC: Off (also needs to be changed in the PS3, since you're doing LPCM)
LFE Att: 0
SACD Gain: 0 (but I don't have anything which can send DSD, may change when I get my Oppo)
HDMI: Amp
A. Delay: On (as I said above)


I force Prologic II Movie when watching video content (some is just stereo, but will de-matrix), and PLII Music with CDs (doesn't work with the PS3, because the music player leaves all 5 or 7 PCM channels active but silent; that gives the AVR nothing to process). These really come down to taste.

I changed my speakers to small, enabled loudness and it's a different world. I'm now a lot happier, even if I'm not done with experimentation.

but even with that, is there a big difference between a m22 + sub and a pair of m60 + sub or m80 + sub.. (in my small room)

I don't listen to anything at high volume, sometime I crank it to -15 db, but that's almost the max I'm going.

If you don't push the speakers to louder volumes, I don't think you will notice dramatic changes in your room. I think the difference in towers v. monitors, etc., is much less noticeable when not driving to critical listening levels.

interesting.. is the VP150 worth the upgrade? I bought my center 12 years ago.. probably a vp100 v1

I don't have that center, but the center does a lot of work on movies, and matching the L/R is very helpful to keep an immersive image as sounds move across the screen. If your old speaker has a good sound, you don't have to change it. But I can't say how well it matches your L/R. If money is tight, I would get the other stuff first. If not - as is the Axiom way - give it a try.

From what I know, the centers have experienced significant upgrades over the years. Don't ask me for specifics or how I know.

Try to find an audition if you're curious about vp150 or m80. I personally think the 80s were totally worth it for me, but I also haven't tried m22s in my rig. Tho I might try some for bedroom 2.0 in the future.

Is this The Deaf Monk of which you speak?

Deaf Monk

Coming late to the party, just being a 'grasshopper', I'm not understanding the DM references. ;o)