The world's newest Axiomite it born...

Posted by: Micah

The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/14/09 04:58 AM

Sooooo... after months and months of talking the big talk, and one supremely cool visit to a local Axiomites dwelling to listen to the goods in person, I've finally taken the plunge! I called the toll free number, as JC directed, and talked to the man himself. One Home Theater System from the Factory Outlet is on it's way.... er, well will be on it's way in 3 -4 weeks time.

On the order :

2 M80's
2 QS8's
1 VP150
& 1 EP800!!!

All in black oak, and all from the Factory Outlet. Yes they do have the EP800 available from the Factory Outlet if anyone else is curious about that. Now I will admit that normally I probably would have wanted the brand spankin new stuff. I'm not usually a 'Factory Outlet' kind of guy. But when I visited SRoodes man cave, he informed me that he ordered his speakers (not his dual EP800's mind you, those were brand new) through the Factory Outlet, and I couldn't tell a bit that there was anything wrong with them what-so-ever... so with a 10% discount in mind (coupled with the 5% Home Theater discount), I went ahead with the entire order through the outlet and saved close to $700 bucks on my purchase... that's nothing to sneeze at!!!

Ahhhh... so now the imfamous 'waiting game' starts for me. I just went out and purchased my 65 inch Sharp Aquos LCD television, so that may help keep my nerves tamed a bit for the time being. But that won't last for long. Because a great as my movies will look now, I'm going to want them to sound just as awesome as the did in Steve's Home Theater... even though that will never be possible in my set up. Still, I'll want it to sound as close to that as I can get in my livingroom. So I'll go with the standard questions... having learned very valuable advice from this board already concerning speaker wire, I now know not to run out and purchase $800 dollars worth of Monster cables and wire like I did in my last set-up (shut up, I didn't know any better in those days damn it!!!). So what is the standard size wire everyone uses here for the M80's... 12 guage? How about the QS8's that will be clear across the room... stick with the 12 guage for them as well? The EP800 will require an RCA cord I assume, anything special I should be looking at for it? The VP150 should be fine with what ever cord I purchase for the M80's I would guess... so should I just be looking to buy a big roll of 12 guage wire and be done with it?

Oh goodness, this grin on my face is going to be difficult to scrub off in case a situation arises that calls for me looking something other than stupidly happy! I may need sedatives to get to sleep from now until my order arrives as well. Does anyone have any vallium they can spare? Ok Tyllenol PM if you don't want to get arrested on drug charges!
Posted by: jakewash

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/14/09 05:11 AM

Congrats on the order, looking forward to the required pics and review of the new system once you get it.

I have been buying 12 gauge wire from Monoprice.com, it is still very inexpensive and you can run it as long as you want, at least within reason for most HT applications, no "what if's" with this thicher gauge wiring. For that more cool factor I have some of Axiom's 12 gauge bulk wire and it is of outstanding quality for the price. The minimum I would look at purchasing is 14 gauge.

The sub cable is simply a shielded RCA cable, that can be bought from Monoprice as well. They have some RG6 coax sub cables which can be run for very long lengths with out signal degradation. The extra length on the sub cable will allow for difficult sub placements.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/14/09 05:16 AM

Thanks for the info. I'm only going to need about 10 feet maximum of sub cable. Once I get my pics up, you'll see why! =)
Posted by: cb919

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/14/09 07:00 AM

Micah,
Just a thought on the speaker wire - when I built my home HT my local shop 'sold' me a huge spool of speaker cable of hundreds of feet. I then installed whatever wire I needed off of the one large spool, then returned the unused length which they refunded. It took the guessing out of how much you will need to purchase. I don't know how long your runs are, but thought I'd mention it as an option if you can find a local shop that'll do that.
Posted by: Olderbutwiser

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/14/09 09:01 AM

Congrats Micah, I also took the plunge and ordered the Epic 80-500 from the FO this week. I used Axiom 12 ga speaker wire, it is very flexible and was easy to pull around the rafters in my attic. I can't tell you about performance yet (I don't see that as a problem at all) as the ends of the wires are just hanging out of my ceiling and walls with nothing attached to them yet. I also ordered a 25 foot sub cable so that I can experiment with various locations for my sub to try and find the sweet spot. Ok lets see who gets their order first.
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/14/09 09:25 AM

Congratulations! Those EP800 sure do look sweet. You are in a very elite club.

Speaker Wire
http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10239

Subwoofer Cable
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/subwoofer/index.htm
Posted by: jakewash

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/14/09 11:12 AM

I would still buy the sub cable from Monoprice as well, much cheaper and most likely the same performance values as the bluejeans as it appears to be about the same specs, along the same values as RG6.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10236
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/14/09 11:32 AM

Congratulations Micah, that's going to be an awesome setup! The hardest part is the waiting, but ordering from the FO is a decent saving and the wait is, well, the price we pay to get the discount. I'll second Jay's recommendation on the RG6 cable from Monoprice...I bought some myself, surprisingly good cable for the $$.
Posted by: Murph

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/14/09 12:39 PM

Wow. Jealous!!
Posted by: onn

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/15/09 06:54 AM

Congrats Micah, you're gonna love that set-up. PICS
Mel N.
Posted by: DaveG

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/15/09 09:08 AM

Congrats on your speakers purchase.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/28/09 04:46 AM

Ok, I'm going to attempt to post up a picture, bare with me...



Ok cool, I did remember it right. Ok so this is a picture of our livingroom a few months ago. When I moved in with Amy her livingroom was a simple 35 x 35 foot square room. Unfortunately I didn't get any pictures of the room before, or while we were putting up the HT closet, so you can't see how drastic the change really is. Notice on the closet the cut-out at the top for the electronics cabinet, the cut-out below it for the secondary cabinet (I will eventually be getting an outboard amp that will go there. Also we can put our XBox or Wii in it if we so chose). Then directly underneath that is the cut-out for the EP800... Actually originally I wasn't sure if it would be the EP800 or the EP600. But since they are both the same dimension it didn't matter. But thankfully when I found out you could order the EP800 through the FO, that made my mind up!
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/28/09 05:08 AM

Ok in this pic we see the new french door that replaced the old sliding glass type patio door. The french door is a dream next to the sliding glass door, I would recomemd the switch to anyone who has a sliding glass door. That's Tony walking past the door btw...


Here is a left side view of the closet, and the cut-out for the door I that will go in it. The piano in the background has to go, anyone interested in a piano? Pay the shipping and it's yours...


Ok in this pic we've painted the ceiling a dark gray, and put the track lighting up. I didn't mention earlier that the original lights in this room were 4 square in-ceiling lights that were absolutely hideous! So we replaced them with 6 recessed pot lights, and the track lighting that goes around the outer edge...


Here's what the inside of the closet used to look like...


Ok here I've installed the upper and lower cabinets. I have one of my computers, the Denon and a Sony DVD player sitting in the upper cabinet to give an idea of what things will look like...


A closer look at the electronics cabinet...


Here we've put down most of the wood floor...


Almost finished...

Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/28/09 05:27 AM

Alrighty them, so here are the pictures I took two nights ago. Everything is pretty much ready to go, just waiting on my Axioms...


The legs on the couch belong to my fiance Amy...


A look at the set-up from the 'captians chair'...


Can I just say that having a 65 inch computer monitor kicks some serious ass!!! Haha, hopefully I'll be pulling that piece of plywood out of the bottom very soon and replace it with an EP800...


A close up of the upper cabinet now with the dual computers, the Denon, the Maxtor external back-up drive (2 terabite), the FreeAgent external hard drive (600 gig), a DVD player, and the internet router. Also, notice the LCD lights I put in the top of the cabinet. I like the classic touch they add...


Now when you look inside the new closet you'll find all of our movies, our CD's, our printer...


Oh, and wire!!!


Gobbs and gobbs of the stuff!!! But, it certainly makes connecting stuff up a dream come true! That's the main reason I built the closet... that and the storage it adds...


Close the door and it's all nice and tidy! No scooting a 500 pound HT cabinet across the floor or anything like that. I've been in the back of this thing soooo many times already that the effort and cost of putting this closet up has paid for itself ten times over...


More pics to come as soon as my speakers get here!!!

Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/28/09 06:07 AM

Great looking room!

I thought you were buying the Axioms for the studio, though?
Posted by: EFalardeau

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/28/09 06:17 AM

Impressive!
Posted by: Murph

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/28/09 07:14 AM

Very nice. It must be so nice to be able to walk behind all of your equipment any time you like.
Posted by: Da_Gimp_Pimp

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/28/09 10:40 AM

Absolutely gorgeous room!
Posted by: JaimeG

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/28/09 11:23 AM

Very nice! Love the spot lighting.
Posted by: Golden

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/28/09 11:40 AM

Very impressive! The closet just adds immensely to the setup. Quick question though: once you have the EP800 in place would you mind reporting to us what the vibrations are like on the wall (and subsequently on the wall mounted TV). Looks very solid, but I am looking at a similar setup in the near future and am curious about the effect of the sub directly beneath it all (if any effect).
Posted by: Golden

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/28/09 11:43 AM

Just wanted to add, after looking at the photos again I am just truly impressed with the setup, just beautiful.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/28/09 11:58 AM

 Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
Great looking room!

I thought you were buying the Axioms for the studio, though?


Thank you. Sorry for the confusion, they aren't for the studio, we've moved the sales room inside the house to the livingroom. So the livingroom will double as our HT, and sales room.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/28/09 12:06 PM

 Originally Posted By: Murph
Very nice. It must be so nice to be able to walk behind all of your equipment any time you like.



Absolutely! The reason I did it this way is because in my old house my HT was in the basement. And the wall the tv was against had a storage area behind it. Well when I bought my 65 inch rear projection I had the choice of buying a HT cabinet and putting it up like everyone else was doing, or doing something different. I opted to build a cabinet on my own, cut a hole in the wall over top of the tv, and put all the electronics in it. This saved me a ton of money, and ultimately turned out to be 100 times better than having to mess with all the connections in a traditional HT cabinet... pulling it out from the wall, or trying to squeeze yourself behind it everytime you need to make an ajustment. I would simply walk around to the storage area, and mess with the connections from the back.

I fell in love with the ability to do this that when I moved in with Amy and we decided to turn her livingroom into a sales/HT room, I wanted to have the same set-up. The closet was the only way to achieve this. And to be honest, when I first ran it past her I think she thought I was crazy! It really did sound a little odd to engineer a room to take space out of it and cause all those different angles. But she was a trooper and gave me creative control, and she is very pleased with the results.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/28/09 12:09 PM

 Originally Posted By: Golden
...once you have the EP800 in place would you mind reporting to us what the vibrations are like on the wall (and subsequently on the wall mounted TV).



I sure will. Trust me I'm very curious about it myself. I'm sure it will be interesting to see what happens.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 05/28/09 12:11 PM

 Originally Posted By: Golden
Just wanted to add, after looking at the photos again I am just truly impressed with the setup, just beautiful.



Well thank you, and thank everyone for the compliments. I am so eager to get the Axioms in there so I can post up pictures of the finished product... well, that may not be the ONLY reason I can't wait to get my speakers... but it's certainly one of them!
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/15/09 10:09 AM

They're here, they're here, they're here!!!


And I must say, they are HEAVY!!! All I've done so far is unwrap one QS8, & let me tell you, those little suckers feel like they're made out of solid lead!

Pics will come when as I get them set-up!
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/15/09 10:15 AM

If you think they're heavy now, just wait until you're mounting them and have to put your faith in the bracket. Don't worry. Mine haven't fallen yet. ;\)
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/15/09 12:17 PM

Ok snag #1 (uuuugggg), the volume control knob on the EP800 seems to have broken off somehow? I really don't understand how it could have happened unless it was during packing? Because the boxs were in great shape, & they were double boxed, well wrapped, etc... But when I opened the box, flipped it upside down & pulled it up, a little gold knob came rolling out! \:\(

At first I thought maybe they ship then unattatched so they wouldn't get broken off during packing/unpacking & shipping. But after closer inspection it seems to have been sheared off at some point. All the other knobs & switches are fine, its just the volume.

Which is no biggie, I can cut a little slit in the broken off piece, & turn it with a screwdriver no problem. It just detracts from the whole, "everythings brand new & perfect" feeling you get, ya know?

Guess I need to get them to send me a 'new' new knob now! :P
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/15/09 12:25 PM

 Originally Posted By: pmbuko
If you think they're heavy now, just wait until you're mounting them and have to put your faith in the bracket. Don't worry. Mine haven't fallen yet. ;\)




Funny you said that. Because I had already bought a pair of mounting brackets just like the one's I had mounted my Cambridge Soundwork surround speakers with. When I lifted the QS8 out of the box I immediately knew there was no way those guys would be up to the task! Then I saw the stock mounting brackets (had no clue those came included).

Yes these little guys are not anemic in any way!
Posted by: Murph

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/15/09 01:44 PM

 Originally Posted By: Micah
a little gold knob came rolling out! \:\(


Your lucky!!
King Midas had that problem and he got arrested for it!
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/15/09 02:00 PM

Just hooked the M80's up to the Denon & I'm listening to the radio... WOW do these guys have surprising bass! They are absolutely bassier than my Cerwin Vega's which sported 15 inch woofers! Holy Cow what are these going to sound like once the EP800 is hooked up???

For all those who don't have a subwoofer right off the bat, the M80's will not leave you wanting much. Of course movies will be a different animal, but music sounds fantastic on these pre-EP800!

(...but we all know what I'll say once the big-boy is playing right... I'll be telling everyone they absolutely have to have one of them!!!)
Posted by: Avi Deshpande

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/15/09 02:16 PM

WOW !!!

Nice setup. I have the same speakers except the EP800..still don't have a sub.

Listened to some stuff on a SVS and will be trying a 350 too. Not sure of EP800..too big.
Am curious to read your feedback after to throw the bad boy in the fray.


Congrats on the new speakers..room feels different once Axioms are hooked up.

I enjoyed Transformers. Could not crank up the volume levels with baby sleeping in the next room.

--Avi
Posted by: Intruders

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/15/09 07:26 PM

Congratulations on receiving your order Micah. Can't wait to see the pic's. I could not believe the weights of the speakers, especially the M80s and the VP150.
Posted by: chesseroo

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/15/09 09:08 PM

 Originally Posted By: pmbuko
If you think they're heavy now, just wait until you're mounting them and have to put your faith in the bracket. Don't worry. Mine haven't fallen yet. ;\)

Try putting them up with the "old" bracket, before they invented the super handy T hanger style.
Then you not only had to hang the damn things one screw at a time but you had to balance a carpenter's level to make sure it was all set up to snuff, dangle a spare wall screw in your mouth and manage to hang onto the power drill at the same time!!
Oh ya, we bought our speakers way back in the 'early' days.
We had to go old school hanging those QS8s!!
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/15/09 09:37 PM

 Quote:
We had to go old school hanging those QS8s!!

Walking uphill through waist deep snow each way.

Get off my lawn dammit!!
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/15/09 09:42 PM

 Quote:
WOW do these guys have surprising bass! They are absolutely bassier than my Cerwin Vega's which sported 15 inch woofers!

They sure do! Those old Cersin Vega 15s probably only have 5 or 6 mm of excursion. Drivers have come a long way baby!

 Quote:
Holy Cow what are these going to sound like once the EP800 is hooked up???

On music, probably not a lot different unless you have some really low synth or double bass etc on the disc. The M80s dig deep. Movies, thats a whole different story. I would love to audition an EP800.
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/15/09 10:05 PM

 Originally Posted By: fredk

Walking uphill through waist deep snow each way.

Get off my lawn dammit!!
Fred, you're not one of those guys who walked 5 miles to school and uphill in BOTH directions when you were a kid, are you?
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/15/09 10:09 PM

Nope, just a quarter mile to the end of my driveway except a short time when I had to walk almost a mile because the bus would not turn around in our driveway. Something about the 5' deep ditch on either side...
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/15/09 10:13 PM

Phhhtt! tell the bus driver to install off-road tires.
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/15/09 10:16 PM

 Originally Posted By: fredk
Those old Cerwin Vega 15s probably only have 5 or 6 mm of excursion

Cerwin Vega Excursion? Sounds like an SUV. \:\)
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/15/09 10:25 PM

\:D
Sort of like a Hummer, but a little chocolaty with lots of musicality?
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/16/09 12:22 AM

Wow, that was a scare!!!

Ok so I had the M80's all hooked up. Then I connected the EP800 and listened.... no sound. Ok so then I started messing with the volume control knob, got it to turn (up)... sound! LOT'S of sound!!! I had bass heavy licks in the CD player on purpose. But very shortly after listening I started hearing a clicking sound in the back, almost exactly like the sound I heard over at Steve's house. He said he thought a wire or something was hitting the driver. I wasn't sure what the problem was with mine, but I wasn't happy. So I started messing with all the settings I could think of. I even turned the sub down almost all the way, but it was still there with heavy bass tracks. WTF???

This continued and got worse, the audibility was very annoying. I thought forsure I'd got a bum subwoofer. I was SOOO disappointed!!! I was just about to look at how to take the speakers themselves out to see if something had come loose inside the box. I pushed up on the front of the box (music still playing), and the sound completely disappeared... I let the box down, the sound came back. Up down, up down, no problem, problem, no problem, problem... hmmmm, took a real close look at the front of the box. You know the cut-out I made for the subwoofer? Well it was just barely, and I mean just BARELY touching the top of the wood. So when the bass got real heavy, the wood started vibrating. It sounded AWEFUL!!! I was so depressed all day because I thought forsure I had to send this thing back. But I put an extra spacer on the front of each foot, and problem is completely solved... no noise!!!

That's the good news, the bad news is that because of this little mishap, I have spent all day trying to figure out what was wrong with my subwoofer, when I was supposed to be enjoying the speakers. UUUUGGGG!!!!

Well I can tell you this, the M80's are absolutely superb in every way. Bright? Not in my room. I still don't know what was up with poor Bob's room, but there's no way I would ever catagorize these speakers as bright. If anything they're bassy. I'm still astounded by the bass they put out. I was playing them before I hooked up the EP800 and my fiance said, "I can feel the sub, it sounds good", I said, "honey I haven't hooked the sub up yet". Blank stare. I think she thought I was kidding.

Sorry for not a whole lot of feedback on the EP800 yet. I really don't have anything to compare it to other than my old Cerwin Vega 210 watt downfiring sub. Which I can tell you was nowhere in the same league as this monster. While cringing with distress the whole time I was playing the music and listening to that horrid sound (which my brain had linked to a bum speaker), I was able to appreciate that as much bass as the M80's put out, the EP800 adds a substantial amount more. Could I live without the EP800 music wise (haven't tried movies out yet)? Perhaps. The M80's truely impressed me. Of course I heard Steve's, but I never heard Steve's without his dual EP800's playing. So I was pretty much attributing all the bass to his subs. While playing just the M80's I had no clue that much of the bass was just he M80's doing their thing.

And since I'm still used to the look of my old Cerwin Vega's.... big, massive speakers the whole family could eat dinner on... the M80's thin profile really look to me like they have no business what-so-ever putting out that kind of sound, let alone any bass at all. I would have been thrilled with just the M80's alone. But now I have 4 other speakers to discover and enjoy (just hooked the VP150 up, now for the QS8's). If I love any of them half as much as I love the M80's then I'll be happier than a pig in shit!

So this is how the other half has been living!
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/16/09 01:10 AM

That sucks about all of the wasted time trying to track down the problem, but I'm glad you figured it out and got it sorted. That's a great system you've assembled. I look forward to further impressions once you've had more time with it.
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/16/09 04:15 AM

 Quote:
Bright? Not in my room. I still don't know what was up with poor Bob's room, but there's no way I would ever catagorize these speakers as bright

Thats because they are not bright. There was more at play than Bob's room. He was way to jumpy and insecure about his decision. I don't know why exactly. but I have a feeling that Bob spent more than he could afford when he bought his system.

He hung around Audioholics for a little while and auditioned a few other speakers, but never even mentioned anything about buying.
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/16/09 10:08 AM

I agree re 'brightness'. After playing a lot of music on my Axioms from many genres, to me, they sound very neutral(and detailed).
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/16/09 10:25 PM

I'm about to watch my first movie (Dark Knight) with my new set up, I finally have the QS8's all hooked up. So we'll get to test out the 5.1 channel arrangement finally. One problem, I haven't been able to get the Denon's display to come up on screen for some reason? So I haven't been able to set all the distances from the speakers to my seating. I'm not sure what the problem is, but we'll see how it goes.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/17/09 02:54 AM

Wow talk about a bummer!!! My son and I watched 'Dark Knight' and I couldn't get the EP800 to work? I tried every setting and the light wouldn't come on for anything, so I assumed that it wasn't being sent a signal. So I figured I'd troubleshoot it after the movie. Well after the movie was over I tried everything I could think of... nothing. WTF??? So once again I'm thinking I have to send this thing back. Ok I check one more thing... I'd blown a fuse! Damn it man, so then my son and I drove all over town trying to find a replacement fuse. But of course neither Walmart or Meijer's had that size. Why must everything be so difficult???

This reminded me of my Cerwin Vega's. I used to blow the fuse in the right main speaker everytime I went past +2 on the Denon. I figured it was a problem with the Cerwin's. I don't even know when I blew this fuse? I was listening to music earlier today, not even very loud, and it was working just fine. So I'm at a loss, is it something with the Denon? I don't see how the Denon could blow a fuse in the EP800 though since it doesn't actually power it. But why do I have so many problems with fuses, does anyone else ever blow fuses in their speakers?

The only good news, the M80's really did do a fairly decent job in filling in the bass. Of course the EP800 would have hit the lower notes much better. But once again I'm mighty impressed with the M80's. Now I just have to go get some fuses at Lowes or somewhere. I don't have to send for them in Canada or anything crazy like that do I????
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/17/09 03:37 AM

OK, that really sucks! I don't know what would cause a fuse to go. Maybe your line level out from the Denon is to high??
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/17/09 04:16 AM

How do I check that?
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/17/09 10:59 PM

I scoured this town for fuses today. The problem was that the fuse is a 3.15 amp, and all I could find was either a 3 amp or a 5 amp fuse... no 3.15 amp. So I got the 3 amp fuse. I figured the 5 amp fuse would allow too much damage to the internals before blowing if something were to go wrong. But since I had to use a 3 amp fuse it will blow sooner than the stock fuse would have... arrrrrgggg!!!!

Of course I'm hoping that the blown fuse was a simple fluke, but ya never know. I will say one thing I have learned from my set-up... looks aren't everything. When I designed the closet, I thought the EP600/800 would look fabulous down below the screen where I put it. And don't get me wrong, I do love the way my room looks. However, I think I've traded off a bit of LFE for the placement of the subwoofer below the screen. Why do I feel this way? Well because when I go inside the closet for a movie or CD and the music is still playing, there is a noticable addition of lower frequency effects bouncing around inside the closet.

Do I feel my system lacks LFE? Not in the least. But it does make me wonder what I could have gotten out of it by playing around with the placement of the sub rather than just cutting a hole out in the bottom of the closet and deciding it would go there 'just because'. Ok don't get me wrong, I'm not kicking myself in the least. I'm just curious more than anything what it would have sounded like... say directly behind the couch? There's a chance that I wouldn't have liked it anywhere but where I put it. But I guess if I had to do it over again, I'd have tried it in different locations first just to sooth my curiosities.

I guess maybe this means I need to buy a SECOND EP800 and play around with it's location? Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I realize that's just what I'm a gonna have to do! ;\)
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/18/09 12:22 AM

I'm sure Axiom would send you spare fuses. Have you talked to them?

If you do play around with positioning the sub, let us know what you find out.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/18/09 12:13 PM

Ok I'm having fuse problems. Bought two 3 amp fuses, & they each lasted a few minutes before blowing. I then took a closer look at the original fuse, it's not a 3.15 amp fuse like the guy at ACE Hardware said it was. It says "VT315AL" on it. Does anyone know how many amps they are?
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/18/09 12:30 PM

Ok I stand corrected, it is a 3.15 amp fuse. I went ahead and called Axiom like I should have done in the 1st place, & they said it must be an amplifier problem. "No biggie, we'll send you a new one out today"...

Now while it is a bit strange that I've seen so many issue's with the amplifiers in the EP800, it is at least nice to know it's not a hassel to get it repaired/replaced. That was a breeze!
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/18/09 01:07 PM

If it was the correct spec fuse you replaced it with and they keep on blowing, the amp is the problem. The new amp should fix that issue.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/25/09 01:13 AM

Sorry this took so long to put up... here are the pics of the speakers once they arrived...



Here they are sitting in position...


Here they are sans grills...


A closer look...



They look fantastic, almost as great as they sound. That's the good news. The bad news... well if you'll recall last week I found out the amp in my EP800 was a dud. When I phoned Axiom they said, "ok we'll send you out a new amp today". So I asked them how long it would take to get here, they said it would most likely get here on the 24th (yesterday). Great, I'll look forward to it's arrival. Well yesterday I was hoping to see the UPS man walking up to my door. Instead I got an email from Axiom saying that my amp shipped out today and gave me a tracking number... hu? I thought it was going to ship out last week and arrive today, not ship out today?

Hmmm... well I guess I get to wait a few more days before getting to know the EP800. Waiting isn't my strong suit.
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/25/09 01:28 AM

Wow. Nice room!!
Posted by: grunt

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/25/09 01:39 AM

Very sharp looking setup. I like the horseshoe arrangement of the seating.
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/25/09 01:48 AM

Now who do you suppose gets to sit in the sweet spot? ;\)
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/25/09 02:13 AM

Oh, that sucks that you have to wait more for the EP800, but that is an amazing room. Really, really nice.
Posted by: cb919

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/25/09 09:22 AM

That is one fantastic looking room Micah! Nice design - the lighting looks great in these pics. Too bad about the amp issues.
Posted by: Murph

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/25/09 10:56 AM

Fine room indeed.
Posted by: EFalardeau

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/25/09 12:21 PM

This looks great, indeed. Too bad about the miscommunication, but it will get there soon enough!
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/25/09 05:53 PM

V nice room!! too bad about the wait though.
Posted by: Intruders

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/25/09 07:39 PM

Nice pics Micah. The room and speakers looks great. Worth the wait huh? Now wait a little bit longer.
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/25/09 11:35 PM

Great Pics!
Posted by: Olderbutwiser

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/26/09 08:56 AM

Micah hang in there buddy I got my replacement amp Wed and it is shaking the plaster off my house. BTW your room is beautiful. I wish I had a place in my house that I could do something like that. I either need to build a dedicated HT room or look at buying a new house. Neither one is going to happen anytime soon though.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/29/09 01:48 AM

 Originally Posted By: Olderbutweiser
Micah hang in there buddy I got my replacement amp Wed and it is shaking the plaster off my house. BTW your room is beautiful. I wish I had a place in my house that I could do something like that. I either need to build a dedicated HT room or look at buying a new house. Neither one is going to happen anytime soon though.



I'm actually hanging in there quite beautifully. That's the problem. The longer I live with just the M80's, the more I wonder if I need $2200 dollars worth of bass added to this system? I simply can't believe how much bass these towers produce. They should have sent the amp same day air, because I've really gotten used to not having it. And believe me I'm pretty sure I could find other ways to spend $2200 bucks.

But then again I haven't experienced a movie with the EP800 yet, so once I test those waters my tune may well change.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/29/09 10:44 AM

It will change. I just went for a few weeks without my EP350, and it's nice to have it back.
Posted by: Olderbutwiser

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/29/09 06:02 PM

Anyone want to bet that Micah doesn't send that 800 back after he hears it for the first time.
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/29/09 10:21 PM

I won't take that bet. A subwoofer makes all the difference when it comes to home theatre. I am sure he will be thrilled with the 800 once he gets it up and running.
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/30/09 02:01 AM

 Quote:
I just went for a few weeks without my EP350, and it's nice to have it back.

So much so that you've dubbed him/her/it E3? ;\)
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/30/09 02:09 AM

Not quite that much...
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/30/09 12:52 PM

Hmmm... if it wasn't for bad luck I don't think I'd have any luck when it comes to this subwoofer. I got the amp in yesterday morning, I was thrilled! I removed the old amp, installed the new amp and turned on some music... awesome!!! All those statements about not needing $2200 dollars worth of bass, blah, blah, blah... out the window, I was completely happy! The more music I tested out on it, the bigger my smile got.

Then I tried a movie.

Now I'm still not sure what the problem is, so I'm trying hard not to be negative, but the performance of MY EP800 was less than spectacular. And of course spectacular was what I was expecting. It's still unclear to me what is going on, but it sounds a lot like it's bottoming out, which I thought was impossible with Axiom subwoofers? I would accept it if it were something that happened once or twice during really low frequency scenes during the movie, but it's happening constantly, throughout the movie, and it get's very annoying. I've taken the amp back out, and made sure there was nothing in the way of the cone. I taped the wires back to the support beams to make sure they weren't somehow hitting the back of the cone during it's travel. I tightened everything up as much as I could. The sound is still there during LFE scenes throughout the movie (Iron Man), and even during the testing stage of the THX setup screen. I took the grill off and watched them work. When the hz get really low and they are really moving is when they start making the noise, and it's not just one of them, it's both of them.

I spent a long time trying to diagnose the problem. I played with the setting of the Denon as well as the setting on the amp. It didn't matter if I had the level set almost to zero, it still made the sound during really low frequency scenes. I can't imagine this is how the EP800 is supposed to play, or there would not be very good reviews floating around out there about it. So once again I'm thinking that something is wrong with my unit. I don't know if somehow the bad amp it came with somehow damaged the speakers before it finally went out or what, but something is definately not right with it. I don't remember Steve's performing like this during the scene in 'Finding Nemo'... his just produced powerful bass.

Mine functions flawlessly during music playback, it's just during the low stuff while watching movies. Which is something I do a lot of, so I'm going to have to find a solution for this problem. It's such a shame. Every other speaker I ordered performs far beyond my expectations, I couldn't be happier with the rest of them. It's just the EP800 during movie time that's letting me down. But like I said, I've never heard anyone else on here complain about their EP800's, or any other subwoofer for that matter, so I'm convinced mine just has something wrong with it. What a bummer.
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/30/09 01:02 PM

That blows. I am not sure what you can see when the amp is removed so maybe try removing a driver from the cabinet and inspect the speaker and the wires to see if they are secured properly or if anything else doesn't seem right.
Posted by: Olderbutwiser

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/30/09 01:06 PM

Micah, I'm certainly not an expert but I would try rerunning the Audyssey setup. I would also try the phase switch to see it you get better sound at either 0 or 180.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/30/09 02:09 PM

My Denon doesn't have audessy, but my guess is it wouldn't have any effect really in this case. It's happening when it tries to reproduce the really low (possibly inaudible) stuff. For instance the scene in 'Iron Man' where he's demonstrating his missile system, standing on the mountian... From the time he launches the missile, throughout the entire explosion, for about 20 - 30 seconds my EP800 is bottoming out the entire time. Has anyone else here with an EP500, 600 or 800 watched that movie yet? And if so did your subwoofer rattle and crack the whole time?

I don't think there is anyway this is typical of the EP800 or any of Axiom's subwoofer line. Their speakers are way too good to sound like this. The quality of sound coming out of the M80's is a million times better than that. It can't possibly be indicitive of this speaker, it has to be an exception. Heck my Cerwin Vega handled LFE better than this.

But like I said it sounds spectacular with music. It handles everything down to around 18 hz remarkable well and accurate. It's the stuff below 18 hz that's giving it fits. And since every review I've ever read about it talks about how well it does with the low stuff, I have to assume mine is a bum unit.

Dr. House, removing the amp actually gives you a really good view of the back of the speakers. I played it with the amp removed and watched them. I didn't see any wires or anything else hitting them, but they still made the noise. Playing with the phase switch and subsonic filter had no effect what so ever.
Posted by: EFalardeau

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/30/09 02:21 PM

Did you try the "20hz" filter on the subwoofer? That might help Axiom help you troubleshoot when you call them.
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/30/09 02:27 PM

 Originally Posted By: Micah
For instance the scene in 'Iron Man' where he's demonstrating his missile system, standing on the mountian... From the time he launches the missile, throughout the entire explosion, for about 20 - 30 seconds my EP800 is bottoming out the entire time. Has anyone else here with an EP500, 600 or 800 watched that movie yet? And if so did your subwoofer rattle and crack the whole time?


I've watched the movie with my EP800s and can verify that I didn't hear anything like that. I haven't heard any bottoming out whatsoever on any material.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/30/09 02:44 PM

Micah how do you know it is having trouble below 18hz, are you sending it specific signals from a test cd?

Since you say it makes the sound no matter what volume level you use, I think the drivers are also defective.
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/30/09 02:45 PM

You said it handles everything up to 18hz cleanly. Have you calibrated the 800 with a SPL meter? It is possible things in the actual room could be causing rattling and cracking noises at certain frequencies and it could seem like it is coming from the sub. I doubt it but it is worth checking out.

Also call Axiom.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/30/09 03:38 PM

Yes I'm certainly not ready to give up on it yet, I am willing to try everything first. The comment about handling everything down to 18 hz is actually just a guess. I said that becuase it wasn't doing that during musical playback, and I don't think very much music is recorded below 18 hz (besides possibly 'Bass Boys'), so I was throwing that figure out there. It might be highter or lower than that for all I know, I do not have an SPL meter.

I played with the crossover between 40 - 150 hz and it didn't seem to help. Turning it down to 20 hz may possibly solve the problem, but if it did that would leave a gap between it and the M80's that roll off around 36 hz. So that would be an unacceptable cure in my opinion. The Denon's bass level is set at +4. I turned it down from +12 when I was using just the M80's (which sounded spectacular cranking out this much bass) because it was too much bass during music once I hooked the EP800 up. Mind you it didn't bottom out at +12, it was just too freagin much bass!!!

I will try setting it at zero, and possible even take some bass out of it to see what that does. But honestly, I would have expected it to be able to handle +4 with ease. I mean when you spend $2200 dollars on a subwoofer you have the right to expect it to pump out massive amounts of bass don't you think? You wouldn't think you would have to turn the bass way down in order for it to handle it sufficiently ya know? I mean sure there is always tinkering to do when you're setting up a system... settings to adjust, experimentation to go through in order to get it just right. But no matter what I never would have thought I'd be able to bottom them out so easily. I know everything has it's limitations but this simply can not be all the EP800 is capable of. Like I said, that wasn't what I was expecting. I was expecting it to blow me away during movies, even more than it did during music. So something tells me I have a faulty unit.

CV, I figured as much. You no doubt are experiencing the EP800('s) the way they are meant to be enjoyed. I can't wait until I can enjoy them that way as well.
Posted by: Da_Gimp_Pimp

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/30/09 05:19 PM

 Originally Posted By: Dr.House
It is possible things in the actual room could be causing rattling and cracking noises at certain frequencies and it could seem like it is coming from the sub.


With the 800 basically laying inside the "walk-in" that houses all of the components etc., I was thinking the exact same thing. I know when my EP500 rattles my room it's very hard to locate exactly where the noise is coming from; the sound almost immerses me (if that makes sense \:\) ) .
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/30/09 06:05 PM

I was looking very hard at things around it that could possibly be vibrating and tricking me into thinking it was the 800 as what happened previously to me when it was just barely resting on the wood frame, which made it sound very similar actually.

Ok I tell you what, now that I have that possibility stuck in my head I think what I'll do is move the sub out of it's location, away from all the stuff that surrounds it now, and see if it still sounds as f it's bottoming out. That would be so awesome if it was something else entirely and not the speakers themselves. Because like I said they perform flawlessly during music playback. If I could get that kind of performance out of them during movies (or perhaps even better), I would be as happy as a pig in shit!

Of course wouldn't you know I'm not at the house right now. So now it'll be driving me mad wondering if that's the culprit until I can actually get home and tinker with it!
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/30/09 08:30 PM

Ok I got home and moved the sub around and. Have good news & bad news... first off I'll tell you the bad news. The bad news is that I'm more sure than ever that the noise is in fact eminating from the subwoofer, and not from any other source surrounding it. And I know what you're thinking, that doesn't leave much room for good news, right? Well the good news is that where I had previously thought it was both speakers bottoming out, I'm now almost positive it's only the right (when facing it) side speaker that is producing the noise!

That is big IMO, because it seems a lot more feasible that one of the drivers could be defective then both of them! I mean what would be the odds that I got not one, but two bad drivers as well as a bum amp shipped to me all in the same enclosure? They would have to be astonomical! The chances that I got a bum amp, and that amp caused a problem with the driver, or vice versa even, seem a lot better.

Before, although I was fighting it, I was seriously starting to wonder if the EP800 just wasn't able to hit those low notes. It was a depressing thought, but it seemed more likely than receiving a subwoofer with 3 out of 3 bad components! Now I'm feeling huge relief over the fact that its just the one driver that's bad! Still uncool I might add, but fixable at least.

So next I'm going to pull the driver & see if I can't find a visible problem with it. Does anyone know what I should be looking for? Has anyone else here had an Axiom driver fail in any subwoofer? I'd like to disconnect the bad driver & listen to just the good driver so I can make sure I'm right, how would I do that?
Posted by: JohnK

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/30/09 09:55 PM

Micah, Eric's mention of the "20Hz filter" didn't refer to the variable low pass filter control. It cuts off the response sharply below 20Hz and has nothing to do with the crossover to the speakers. It doesn't serve as a cure-all, but it might indicate what frequencies were causing the problem.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/30/09 10:15 PM

Would that be the subsonic filter? I would imagine that's what you're talking about. I didn't really pay much attention to the way it sounded with it engaged. I will play with it more later. My next project is removing the bad driver to search for clues.
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/30/09 10:15 PM

I believe one way to test for a blown driver is by very carefully and gently pushing the cone and feel/hear for any "scratchiness" or "roughness". If you get any those characteristics you have a bad driver.

I would talk with axiom before doing anything like that however.
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 06/30/09 11:08 PM

 Originally Posted By: Dr.House
I believe one way to test for a blown driver is by very carefully and gently pushing the cone and feel/hear for any "scratchiness" or "roughness". If you get any those characteristics you have a bad driver.

\:o I thought you were supposed to pee on it on a full moon. Oh, wait, thats warts...
Posted by: jakewash

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/01/09 02:14 AM

Would disconnecting the driver's indvidually work as a good way to figure out which driver is causing the noise? The system runs in parallel so loosing one driver just increases the resistance for the amp to drive which shouldn't cause any issues. It would be like having a sealed EP600, which is what the 800 is based on any way, IIRC.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/01/09 03:22 AM

Or I could remove the driver and it would be just like the EP600! ;\)
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/01/09 05:01 AM

Ok I realize I'll probably get crusified even mentioning this, but I have to ask just to get it off of my mind because I've been thinking about it since yesterday when I was watching the dual 12 inch woofers at work. About three years ago I bought a JL Audio sub box with two 12W6 V2's installed in it. I owned that box for all of 2 weeks before it got yanked out of my trunk by some theives. It's still on my list of things that I HAVE to replace!

Those subs were the absolute sweetest bass reproducers I've ever listened to. So anyway what has been going through my head was remembering watching those subs work and how far they traveled. Their excursion distance was phenomenal. And like I said they sounded out of this world, but of course they are made to fill a car with bass, not a 35 x 35 living room. But it made me curious what would happen if you tried to shoe-horn a pair of W6 V2's into a home theater sub box like this one? Would they sound right in this kind of setting?

It's not something I'm ever going to do mind you, I don't exactly have $700 dollars laying around to fullfill this curiosity at the moment. I was just wondering if anyone knows if there is a major difference between car stereo subwoofers and home theater subwoofers? It also made me curious as to what the Axiom's would sound like in a trunk box?

Oh how I love audio equipment!
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/01/09 09:03 AM

Crucify him!

I've also been curious how much drivers with greater excursion would affect the sound. As to whether that specific driver would be what you want in an HT sub, I suppose the easiest way to tell is to see if JL is using that driver in any of their own HT subs. But yeah, I'd love to hear what people with actual knowledge have to say about it.
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/01/09 01:01 PM

 Quote:
I was just wondering if anyone knows if there is a major difference between car stereo subwoofers and home theater subwoofers? It also made me curious as to what the Axiom's would sound like in a trunk box?

I believe that most Car subwoofers are designed for small enclosures. For the most part they do not make good HT drivers. The JL w6 and w7 series are the exception and have quite a reputation in the DIY world. They are extremely linear and thus low distortion.


 Quote:
But it made me curious what would happen if you tried to shoe-horn a pair of W6 V2's into a home theater sub box like this one? Would they sound right in this kind of setting?

If the box were designed specifically for the driver they would make a great HT subwoofer. The Fathom 112/113 use the 12 and 13" version of this driver as does the Gotham. All are highly respected subs.

I do not know that they would sound any better than the EP800. From what I understand, the Fathoms do not play that low (not much output below 20Hz) so the EP800 may in fact be a better all around HT sub. Personally I would love to see someone like Audioholics do a shootout with the newest offerings from JL, HSU SVS and Axiom.

FWIW, the current king of the DIY world is the 18" MaelstromX from Exodos.
Posted by: Da_Gimp_Pimp

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/01/09 01:42 PM

 Originally Posted By: Dr.House
I believe one way to test for a blown driver is by very carefully and gently pushing the cone and feel/hear for any "scratchiness" or "roughness". If you get any those characteristics you have a bad driver.

I would talk with axiom before doing anything like that however.


You're exactly right House. Here's a response I received from Alan on how to check my M80's for a blown driver:

"So, here's how you can check each of your M80s. Play some wide-range music
(or use a pink-noise test signal from your Denon) with lots of bass,
midrange and percussion, stand close to your speakers and check that each
driver is working and producing sound. If you are certain each is working
and you don't hear scratchy, nasty sounds from a driver--even mechanical
scraping sounds--then you can assume that all the drivers are fine.

Now, turn off your Denon and get down so you can gently push the cone in for
each of the woofers and midrange drivers--push them straight in gently with
equal pressure and listen for any scraping sounds. Don't push the cones too
far, just a bit and move them back and forth. Be sure you don't push on an
angle because the gap in the voice coil and magnet is really small and you
might inadvertently push the cone to one side or the other, causing it to
scrape the magnet. If all the drivers are fine, you will hear nothing when
you push the cones in and out.

If one of the voice coils is partly fused, then as you push it in or as the
cone springs out, you'll hear a scraping sound because the voice coil is
scraping on the magnet. Remove the offending driver and call our toll-free
number and we'll replace the defective driver. The speakers have a 5-year
warranty.

I suspect you didn't do any damage or you would have heard nasty scraping
sounds while you were playing music or a clicking or raspy sound when deep
bass is reproduced, or a staticy sound from the tweeters if a voice coil is
fused."

Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/01/09 11:35 PM

 Originally Posted By: wheelz999

I suspect you didn't do any damage or you would have heard nasty scraping
sounds while you were playing music or a clicking or raspy sound when deep
bass is reproduced, or a staticy sound from the tweeters if a voice coil is
fused."[/b]



Is that last part also from Alan? Or is that from you to me? Because I do hear a scraping sound when I push in on the right hand driver. And I also hear a clicking sound when deep bass is reproduced.
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/01/09 11:45 PM

 Originally Posted By: Micah
 Originally Posted By: wheelz999

I suspect you didn't do any damage or you would have heard nasty scraping
sounds while you were playing music or a clicking or raspy sound when deep
bass is reproduced, or a staticy sound from the tweeters if a voice coil is
fused."[/b]



Is that last part also from Alan? Or is that from you to me? Because I do hear a scraping sound when I push in on the right hand driver. And I also hear a clicking sound when deep bass is reproduced.


You have solved the issue! You have a bad driver. Give axiom a call and they should be able to send out a replacement for you. I think this is the end of the road for all the problems you have experienced and finally once you get a new driver installed I think you will get to enjoy the true capabilities of this beast. Check out the other driver as well, if the other driver is fully functional it will be easy to distinguish the two by using the methods mentioned above in Alans excellent response to Cam.

Cheers!
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/01/09 11:56 PM

Yes I'm almost positive that it's the right side driver that is the problem. I'm not sure if the bad driver caused the amp to short out, or if the bad amp caused some damage to the driver? But at any rate, I will be replacing the driver. Tis a shame, having to spend yet more time waiting until I can finally hear this thing play the way it is meant to be played!

How do they handle an issue with a bad driver anyhow, does anyone know? Like to I have to pack this one up, send it in and then they'll ship a new one out to me? Or do they send the new one out, I replace it and then send the old one back? I only ask because I would love to still be able to listen to music with the EP800 until I can get the faulty driver replaced. That would stink having to go back to just the M80's again after experiencing the set up with the EP800 included. I admit that I was very happy with just the M80's before the new amp arrived. But now that I've lived with serious bass for a few days, it would be torture have to do without for a week or better.

I NEED the bass now!!!
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/02/09 12:05 AM

The scraping sound you described when you touched the driver as well as the all the distorted sounds when the subs hits low, I am 100% sure that driver is done and is the cause of your most recent problem. A new driver will fix it right up.

They will probably try to send you out a replacement driver ASAP. If they want the bad driver back I am sure they will send you another box along with the new driver. But I doubt they would want the defective driver back anyways.
Posted by: Potatohead

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/02/09 12:56 AM

Did they want the old amp back? It seems to me they may want the old stuff back just to test it for their own knowledge as to why it failed... Unless it's a relatively common thing and they have all those bases covered already. I'm sure there is a certain percentage that are just bad units from the beginning.

Hopefully this will be the last issue you have!
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/02/09 01:21 AM

 Originally Posted By: Micah
How do they handle an issue with a bad driver anyhow, does anyone know? Like to I have to pack this one up, send it in and then they'll ship a new one out to me? Or do they send the new one out, I replace it and then send the old one back?


They send the replacement, then you use the box they sent the replacement in to return the defective one. At least, that's how it was for me.

My fingers are crossed that this is the end of the line for your problems. You may remember that it took a long time for me to get my perfect pair of EP800s. Between cosmetic damage and faulty electronics, it was a lot of grief. I'm glad I had the patience to let it all get sorted, though, as I'm certainly enjoying them now. Hang in there.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/03/09 12:47 AM

Hmmmm... no I must have missed part of that. I remember Steve having issues with one of the amps in his EP800, what issue did you have? Did you have a bad driver as well?

As far as I'm concerned the Factory Outlet is a lie!!! I looked carefully over all of my speakers (all purchased through the factory outlet), and I think I came across one rediculously minor flaw in the finish on one of my QS8's. The rest of the speakers all looked perfectly fine, no imperfections that I could find at all! But hey, if they want to give me a 15% discount on these spotless speakers, I'm game!
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/03/09 04:09 AM

My memory's getting a little foggy, so we'll see what I can remember. My drivers were fine except one of them had a scratch, which I decided I cared enough about to have replaced. There was minor cosmetic damage on other parts, too. Plus, one of the volume knobs had been bent. New enclosure, new driver, new amp. I tried swapping out the amp, but even though I thought I followed the directions precisely, the amp decided to work, then make some disturbing sounds, then not stop making the disturbing sounds. I can't recall with enough clarity what it sounded like. I just remember it sounded very wrong and very loud. Anyway, my confidence was gone, so I decided to have them send two completely new subs. Thankfully, the new ones arrived in pristine condition due to new packing procedures, but it was a long time coming. It was agonizing since I had to wait out the whole preorder thing only to have problems which made a couple of delays before I could really enjoy my system. Even so, it was all worthwhile, but I hope I can avoid ordeals like that in the future.
Posted by: grunt

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/03/09 04:32 AM

 Originally Posted By: Micah

As far as I'm concerned the Factory Outlet is a lie!!! I looked carefully over all of my speakers (all purchased through the factory outlet), and I think I came across one rediculously minor flaw in the finish on one of my QS8's. The rest of the speakers all looked perfectly fine, no imperfections that I could find at all! But hey, if they want to give me a 15% discount on these spotless speakers, I'm game!

I agree. I think Axiom is running a “bait and switch.” You order B-stock and they ship you A-stock.

I have ordered 10 factory outlet speakers and never found anything wrong with them out of the box. Now once I got my hands on them that changed. I do think that Axiom does ship factory seconds when they have them, but I’m convinced that when they don’t have any B-stock they ship you A-stock rather than keeping you waiting to long. If not they have insanely strict QC and awesome inspectors. I inspect airplanes for a living so if I could find anything wrong with my speakers then Axiom’s inspectors are really good.
Posted by: Da_Gimp_Pimp

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/03/09 12:23 PM

 Originally Posted By: grunt
I inspect airplanes for a living


Planes crash \:\)
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/03/09 12:29 PM

Ummmmmmmmmm... BIRD STRIKE!
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/03/09 01:03 PM

 Originally Posted By: grunt
I’m convinced that when they don’t have any B-stock they ship you A-stock rather than keeping you waiting to long.


This is precicely what I was thinking. Which sounds like good business to me. I expecially thought that when they said EP800's were available through the Factory Outlet. I mean such a new speaker simply can't have enough of a production run to be available through the Factory Outlet that soon. Plus they called me to verify if it was vertical or horizontal because they wanted to make sure they knew what kind of speaker they were "making for me"....

Like I said, I'm not mad at them! ;\)
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/03/09 01:11 PM

I have noticed that too that Axioms quality control is outstanding. Besides some of the kinks that have to get worked out with the 800 , you rarely hear of any problems and if there are they get solved quickly. I would bet their quality control standards/oversight are much better than a lot of other ID companies due to the fact that their manufacturing and assembly process is not done completely overseas. From some of the pictures I have seen of their testing equipment from the factory in Canada it is state of the art.
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/03/09 01:34 PM

 Quote:
I agree. I think Axiom is running a “bait and switch.” You order B-stock and they ship you A-stock.

Bastards!! I knew it was too good to be true.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/03/09 02:16 PM

Yeah I was all set to live with a huge blemmish on one of my M80's with the finish on the other one possibly peeling right off. But no, instead I have these absolutely perfect speakers staring at me all day long. How on earth am I supposed to brag about what a deal I got on them to my friends now?

"B-Stock? What ever dude, come on tell us how much you really spent on them"!

Oy vey!
Posted by: grunt

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/03/09 04:23 PM

 Originally Posted By: wheelz999

Planes crash

Shhhhhhh! We don’t talk about that.

Actually if you knew the sort of crap that really happens you might never want to fly.

 Originally Posted By: CV

Ummmmmmmmmm... BIRD STRIKE!

Pilot error!

Damm college boys!

Posted by: Da_Gimp_Pimp

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/03/09 05:08 PM

Dean, have a spare jet engine and a couple wings hanging around? I'm game to rig up the first jet powered wheelchair. Heck, can't get much more broken than I already am, if something malfunctions.

Just imagine my title at an air show "Superquad, the supersonic gimp"!!
Posted by: grunt

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/03/09 06:23 PM

It might not have worked on a car in Myth Busters but I’ll bet a couple JATOs would get you airborne most ricky tick. You could then have a parasail deploy to keep you from coming down just as fast.
Posted by: Da_Gimp_Pimp

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/03/09 07:08 PM

Now you're talking! Everyone misses Super Dave, and I could fill that void; you would be my sidekick!!
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/03/09 10:33 PM

I think he has to wear that leather helmet in his avatar if he's your sidekick.
Posted by: grunt

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/03/09 11:03 PM

 Originally Posted By: fredk
I think he has to wear that leather helmet in his avatar if he's your sidekick.


I use to have one of those when I was growing up but I have no idea what ever happened to it.

A cape would also be cool but for the sake of the world I draw the line at tights. Now Teri on the other hand…Well she would make you much more marketable than I would any day.
Posted by: Potatohead

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/04/09 01:42 AM

Now this, I would pay to see
Posted by: Da_Gimp_Pimp

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/04/09 08:26 AM

I'll let her know of our idea, and give you guys first dibs on selecting the attire for our promotional photo shoot.
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/04/09 10:50 AM

\:D
I don't think Donald Sutherland ever wore tights either.
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/04/09 10:52 AM

I'm thinking Dean as the sidkick and teri as the 'man Friday'. I never understood why Batman went for the old guy buttler...
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/04/09 01:57 PM

Old guys tell better jokes.
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/04/09 01:59 PM

They're closer to the punchline.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/04/09 02:40 PM

Just curious, when they come out with the M80 V3's come out how do M80 owners upgrade? Do they make the crossovers available for us to instal on our own? Or do we send ours in for them to modify?

For instance did anyone here have the M80 V1's & upgrade to the V2's when they came out? Now that I've heard the M80's and all they are capable of I wish I could have been there at Bobs GTG with the SongTowers. I don't care how bright they may or may not have considered them to be, they all had to have been astonished by the bass they put out. He did mention that fact in his posts actually. While tryng hard not to heap too much praise on the Axioms since he'd become such a Salk fan, he did mention that they put out a surprising amount of bass that shocked everyone at the GTG.

You know he had too be smiling when everyone's eyes popped out of their heads! Lol
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/04/09 03:59 PM

I would love to A/B the Songtower and the M80.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/04/09 04:11 PM

I would love to A/B just about any speaker and the M80's.
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/04/09 04:13 PM

Like the B&W 802D? It would be cool to go to one of these get togethers some forums organize. There is one going on out west this month that will have the Songtowers and a pair of M60s. Too bad its out on the left coast.

Edit: Here's the original thread.
Posted by: grunt

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/04/09 04:46 PM

 Originally Posted By: micah

Now that I've heard the M80's and all they are capable of I wish I could have been there at Bobs GTG with the SongTowers.

I would love to hear the SongTowers. In my limited audio experience the “smooth” speakers people gush over just don’t get the highs right. Which is why I quickly narrowed my search down to brands like Focal, B&W and eventually Axiom. IMO it’s easier to EQ or (tube amp) a speaker to sound smoother with harsh recordings than to replace highs that should be there from the original source.

If there was ever any doubt in my mind that my M80s or M22s were “harsh” or sibilant when it wasn’t coming from the recording itself I put that to rest by A/B comparing them with my Sennheiser 600s. A sibilant sounding recording on my Axioms sounded the same on my Sennheisers. Ended any doubt in my mind full stop.

IMO Bobs M80 experience was doomed from the start based on the power of suggestion from posts in other forums. Plus he seemed to want more of a social experience in his speaker purchase than just an auditory one.

One nice thing I have noticed recently is that with the silence of a certain brands fanboys, do to the companies “issues,” you’re not seeing the “made my ears bleed” comments cropping up any more. If I were the suspicious type I might suspect a little disinformation.

Posted by: Zimm

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/04/09 04:59 PM

 Originally Posted By: wheelz999
Dean, have a spare jet engine and a couple wings hanging around? I'm game to rig up the first jet powered wheelchair. Heck, can't get much more broken than I already am, if something malfunctions.

Just imagine my title at an air show "Superquad, the supersonic gimp"!!


Cam, I just read an article in Automobile Magazine where a guy put a jet engine on the back of his Truck. Nice install, cool deal, and he really uses it. Calls it a Hybrid.

And I can't pass up the chance to use my goof-off pic twice in one day, but Cam flying looks like fun.

[img][/img]
Posted by: grunt

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/04/09 05:53 PM

Cam could use that as a new avatar and change his username to “Wheels on Roids” or maybe “Wheels in Space”
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/04/09 06:21 PM

Yeah I wonder how the Axioms would fair at a GTG? Most of those guys have spent between two and five thousand dollars on their speakers, so they probably wouldn't like a pair of $1200 dollar speakers showing up and performing as well as they do.

Do the M60's pump out the bass like the M80's do?
Posted by: grunt

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/04/09 06:43 PM

Only read about them but I think they are pretty close to the M80s which IMO have very good bass.

I didn’t read about the GTG but if it’s a group of a Salk owners It’s likely which they will prefer Salk and the same is true for a bunch of Axiom owners prefering Axioms.

Hope they do some blind listening. When I demo’d the my M80s against my friends B&Ws there was now doubt I liked the B&Ws better no contest at all…that is until we did some blind testing. Blind testing evened things up quite a bit to the point that for price vs performance the Axioms were a no brainer.

The SongTowers AFAIK are a different sounding speaker all together than the M80s. At which point if you are use to a particular sonic signature a new one should be more noticeable.

Interesting to see what they have to say. Salk owner have always seemed respectable in the forums I’ve seen them posting in so I think there opinions will be worth hearing.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/04/09 07:23 PM

It is only natural to be biased towards the brand you have invested all your money in. Before you make an investment like this one usually spends a fair amount of time before hand researching their purchase. After weighing the price verses the performance of whatever system you decide to buy you generally should feel happy with what you've gotten.

So when you show up to a GTG with your speakers, the most common thing to do would be to pick apart everyone elses speakers flaws (after all no speaker is perfect) and concentrate on all of the positve aspects of your own. It's human nature. So when taking his M80's to perform against the SongTowers you would expect nothing less than for them to find something wrong with them (in Bobs thread they all felt they were too bright... including Bob. However he did admit they sounded a whole lot better in the treated room verses his own room), while reconfirming to themselves all the strengths of the ST's.

I didn't expect them to say, "wow those speakers sound wonderful, and soooo much better that these Salks that I spent 50% more money on... Boy do I ever feel dumb now". Even if they did feel that way it would never be said. If someone were to bring a pair of $500 dollar Pioneer towers that they'd picked up down at Sears and they sounded anywhere close to as good as my M80's I would probably be too embarrassed to admit it. I would have to scramble and find a song that the Axioms played better just to sooth my wounded pride.

And to be fair people do have different tastes. So I really don't doubt that they genuinly did prefer the sound of their speakers over the Axioms anyway. Still it was interesting to see the comments about how much bass they produced. Some even mentioned they sounded 'boomy'... That is rediculous, they reproduce bass extremely accurately. Tight, fast, smooth bass. But compared to the SongTowers which apparently don't give off as much bass, I could see how they might consider the M80's 'boomy'.

That's where blind tests really come in handy. When you can't be biased because you don't know what you are listening to, it makes it a lot harder to be critical. For all you know you might be listening to the speakers you love and are proud to own. So your natural reaction would be to find the positive aspects of whatever is playing at the time.

A blind test of 3 - 5 speakers would be super cool actually. I would love to see what I really think of my own speakers next to someone elses, let alone what I think of someone elses next to mine. When is the next midwest GTG???
Posted by: grunt

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/04/09 08:38 PM


I agree with your points. Being a social scientist by education I love reading the discussions that develop in forums about different opinion based topics like “my speakers are better than yours.” The shear level of emotion and rationalization with which many people post about their various AV purchases is a good anecdotal indication of just how subjective this hobby is.

A blind test is the only way IMO to make a GTG worthwhile. Knowing which/who’s speaker is playing brings so many social psychological factors into play it will almost always make any conclusions about relative quality worthless. Very few people, I mean a miniscule number, can withstand the norming effect of social pressure, and most consider those people to be anti-social.
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/04/09 11:26 PM

 Quote:
I didn’t read about the GTG but if it’s a group of a Salk owners It’s likely which they will prefer Salk and the same is true for a bunch of Axiom owners preferring Axioms.

From the people on the list I recognize its not a fanboy convention, but a group of people really interested in hearing what other speakers sound like.

All the positive buzz on the Songtowers will give them a bias though.

By the way, of the pro reviews that I have read on the songtower, the weakness is in the top end and most who have heard them with the ribbon tweeter upgrade prefer it because of the greater detail.

I still think that Bob was in over his head budget wise. There was an underlying anxiety in his posts that reminded me of people in financial distress.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/05/09 02:25 AM

That's the strange part though. Buying Axioms should make you feel pretty good if you're finances are strained. Because you get a lot of speaker, for a fairly low cost. I mean they aren't blue light special speakers. But they perform far above what their retail would suggest.
Posted by: Potatohead

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/05/09 02:29 AM

I would agree with Micah. I was close to buying a nice JBL setup from a local dealer, when my buddy mentioned Axiom to me after buying a 6.1 setup last year. It just seemed for 40% more money you were getting so much more speaker, and then to get substantially better speakers from the Axioms, you had to spend a truckload of cash. Sealed the deal for me.
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/05/09 09:46 AM

That would depend on how strained your finances are Micah. Some people spend way beyond their means. Anyway, its just speculation on my part.
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/05/09 11:57 AM

Micah,

What is the latest status on your EP800?
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/05/09 01:50 PM

Right side speaker is bad. I was way too busy to even mess with it last week, but first thing Monday I'm going to call in for a replacement speaker.
The good news is that it still works pretty good for most music, so I have been able to enjoy it. But when it's movie time, that's when the problem really shows itself. The lower frequencies throw the right hand speaker into convulsions and it sounds terrible. Which really sucks since I love movies so much!

One question, does anyone here modify their speakers at all? Specifically their subwoofer box's? The reason I ask is because when.I had the amp removed from the EP800 & was checking out the speaker travel I noticed A LOT of vibration from the cabinet itself. Of course this is only normal with twin 12 inch woofers pumping out buttloads of bass, but it got me thinking... when I was putting my car system together we did the whole inside of the car and the trunk n Dynomat (sound field damper). Then we took the JL box that housed 3 W6 V2 10 inch subwoofers apart and lined the insides of the box with the Dynomat as well. And like I said before that box reproduced bass unlike anything I've ever heard... for two whole weeks until it was stolen that is.

Since I never heard the box before hand its hard to say whether or not the Dynomat made any difference in the sound quality, but the guy helping me said it would take out any unnecessary vibrations & just make the whole box more solid. So I was thinking about doing the same with the EP800 and seeing if I could tell a difference in sound quality. Just curious if anyone else had done anything like that or even something else that they found favorable results with?
Posted by: Da_Gimp_Pimp

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/05/09 05:06 PM

Zimm, that's really cool. For the love of Pete, I hope that is Teri loading me up, dressed in the gray spandex suit, rather than Dean
Posted by: grunt

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/05/09 08:28 PM

If you’re looking for something grayish how about a seven of nine cosplay outfit.

Coplay has to be one of the best Japanese inventions ever.
Posted by: Zimm

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/05/09 08:31 PM

 Originally Posted By: wheelz999
Zimm, that's really cool. For the love of Pete, I hope that is Teri loading me up, dressed in the gray spandex suit, rather than Dean


Perhaps someone with actual skill can get her image on there so you can have a final print/avitar. I'm happy to ship the file to whoever can do real art work. That whole Super Dave bit had me smiling all day. Good stuff.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/05/09 11:55 PM

I find it amusing that in that entire wikipedia link, there are no pictures of male cosplayers.
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/06/09 12:17 AM

Ken, you need to submit some pics then.

\:\)
Posted by: grunt

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/06/09 12:26 AM

 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
I find it amusing that in that entire wikipedia link, there are no pictures of male cosplayers.


That’s what makes it a great and not average invention ;\)
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/06/09 12:30 AM

Micah, regarding adding extra damping to the EP800 box, I'd check with Axiom before attempting it. Ian tends to use a "just enough" philosophy with internal bracing, and I believe they've done some tests that show excessive bracing can actually harm the sound.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/06/09 01:22 AM

Really? Wow that's hard to understand. I can't think of a reason why more bracing would be detrimental? Does that mean that 400 pound Elemental Design subwoofer is hopelessly over internally braced? Perhaps it absorbs too much of the lower frequencies? I will have to ask Ian about that one.
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/06/09 01:30 AM

I would be interested in seeing the reply to that one. From what I understand, most speakers and subs are a compromise. More bracing reduces cabinet resonance, but adds to the manufactureing cost and a lot to shipping costs.

You would not want to change the internal volume too much by adding bracing, but dynamat dosn't fall into that catagory.

The more interesting question is how audible cab resonance is.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/16/09 12:26 PM

 Originally Posted By: fredk
I would be interested in seeing the reply to that one.



Ok well here is what I wrote to Alan...

 Originally Posted By: Micah

Hi Alan, I have a quick question for you. I bought an EP800 about a month ago and had a few problems with it. First off the amp was bad so I had to get a new one. When the new one came I installed it and it worked like a charm. But that's when I noticed that at least one of the woofers was bad (the right one forsure). So I played the unit with the amp out so I could watch the back of the subwoofer work to see if I could see what the problem was. That's when my question dawned on me...

First of all let me tell you that the EP800 is an excellent product, and I'm not trying to imply that it's not a quality unit at all here. But you see I've always been a tinkerer, I like to maximize the performance of the things I own, much like my heavily modified motorcycle. It was a great bike right out of the crate, but I wanted to see how far I could push it!

So what dawned on me when I had the amp off and was watching the drivers work was that I might line the inside of the box with Dynomat to further insulate and deaden the soundfield inside the box. But I wanted to check with you first to ask if there would be any ill effects of doing this? I'm not talking about any additional bracing, just applying regular Dynomat to the walls, floor and ceiling of the box. I did this with a JL audio subwoofer box that I had in my car and it worked great. Of course it was a much less expensive unit, so before I go modifying a $2300 dollar piece of equipment I figured I should at least hear your opinions on the matter to see if this type of material had already been experimented with and found to be detrimental to the sound at all, or if you thought it couldn't hurt, and may even improve it even slightly.

Thanks in advance.

Micah.


And his reply...

 Originally Posted By: Alan


Hi Micah,

Sorry you had trouble with the EP800 amp. I also wanted to point out that the woofers in the EP800 will "work" very differently with the amplifier removed because then it is no longer a sealed system (acoustic suspension). In the latter design, the air pressure inside the box works as an acoustic "spring", unlike that of a vented (ported) system. In the EP800, both woofers are driven, but the excursion of each (the back and forth movement) may not be identical. I hope your woofers are back to normal.

Anyway, I'm not familiar with JL audio subs, nor with Dynomat (from its name, I assume it's an absorbent material that you use to line the interior of the enclosure with) but of course if you want to try it, you can do so. Technically, that would violate your warranty. It also might reduce the performance of the EP800 by changing the resonant frequency of the drivers and the system. You don't want to absorb or deaden too much of the interior energy radiated at the rear of the woofers because it will alter the performance of the sealed system.

I'll foward your inquiry to Ian Colquhoun, the designer and owner of Axiom, to see what his thoughts might be.

I understand your urge to tinker. I've been doing that for years, especially back when I built some transmission-line subwoofers in the late 1970s. While at the time I was thrilled with their performance (especially because I'd built them), I hasten to add that the performance of the EP500 and its brethren greatly exceed that of my home-built subs.

Regards,

Alan



So it sounds to me as if lining the top and bottom of the subwoofer may be alright, but not the back. I'm going to resist tinkering with it until I hear back from Ian on the matter. Also voiding my warranty sort of bites.
_________________________
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/16/09 12:50 PM

Any my latest reply to Alan...

[quote=Micah}

Ok well I do appreciate your time and thoughts on the matter. And I am eager to hear Ian's thoughts as well. Just to let you know, I was aware that playing the unit with the amp removed would change the dynamics of the system, so I wasn't doing any listening tests or anything while running this experiment. I was simply trying to watch the travel of the woofer cone to see if a wire or something was getting in the way of the speaker while it was operating.

The problem with the bad speaker (there is a replacement speaker on it's way as we speak) presented itself during movie play back where there was a lot of LFE present. During almost all of my musical recordings the EP800 seems to work flawlessly. But when really low, probably inaudible frequencies are played the right speaker has a nasty 'clanking' sound to it... I originally thought I was bottoming out the speakers. But of course this is something that the XLF won't alow, so I knew it had to be a faulty speaker. And this was all discovered with the amp firmly in place and the entire system sealed as it was intended to be, so it wasn't a reaction to a change in the original design.

I can't wait to get the new speaker installed so that I can enjoy movies the way they were meant to be heard. I'm already enjoying my music collection like I've never enjoyed it before. The M80's are truely a world class speaker. And I enjoy playing my music in 5.1 channel for the first time ever because the VP150, and the QS8's are up to the task of playing with just as much fidelity as their tower big brother. The result is my entire livingroom is filled with incredible sounding music. And all for a price that truely shocks me. I would put my system up against a system costing double what I paid any day.

I honestly believe they are that good!

[/quote]


Now don't go calling me a 'suck-up'... these are after all the same thoughts I've shared on this board time and time again! ;\)
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/16/09 12:55 PM

I wouldn't try that simply because it will void your 5 warranty and especially with an expensive piece of equipment such as the 800. Voiding Axiom's warranty replacement/customer service is not worth it in my opinion just to add a gimmicky product such as dynamat to the enclosure. I am not saying it will not work, I just don't like the tradeoff. But you are free to do anything you like of course \:\) .
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/16/09 01:28 PM

Yeah I don't know if I want to chance it either. However Dynomat is anything but a gimmicky product. I have used it to great effect for years (close to two decades) in car installations. It does do what it says it does (deadens the sound field). My only real concern is, do I want to deaden the sound field inside the EP800 or not? This I don't really know. They do put some damping material inside the box as it is. So they do apply this technique to a degree.

My question hinges on if they have 'just enough' damping employed, or if it's just as far as they wanted to take it?
Posted by: Zimm

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/16/09 01:44 PM

No doubt, Dynamat and its competitors are not just gimmicks - shockingly overpriced, but not gimmicks. They stop large flat panels from making their own musical notes, and lessen the intrusion of road noise. All you have to do is close the door on two cars, one treated and one not, and you will hear the difference - smack v. thud. Big impact on car audio quality.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/16/09 01:59 PM

IIRC, Ian uses the cabinet resonance, while most others try to stop it, this, IMO, is what gives Axiom's subs their superior musical qualities; so I wouldn't be tinkering to much with Axiom's subs.
Posted by: Zimm

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/16/09 02:23 PM

 Originally Posted By: jakewash
IIRC, Ian uses the cabinet resonance, while most others try to stop it, this, IMO, is what gives Axiom's subs their superior musical qualities; so I wouldn't be tinkering to much with Axiom's subs.



Good point; you would not deaden a piano or guitar as the whole makes the sound. I forget who, but some speaker mfg claims to tune the cabinet to work like a large musical instrument.
Posted by: Da_Gimp_Pimp

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/16/09 03:48 PM

 Originally Posted By: Zimm


Good point; you would not deaden a piano or guitar as the whole makes the sound.


Good point; you wouldn't put square wheels on a wheel chair to make it faster.
Posted by: Murph

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/16/09 03:51 PM

Except to strap rocket powered sleds to....
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/16/09 03:53 PM

Yes and this was part of my concern, if the Dynamat would take away from the whole of the experience instead of improving it. The thing that prompted me to consider it was the fact that the cabinet gives of quite a bit of squeaking during playback both while the amp was removed, and when it is in place.

It was a very interesting experiment. If anyone else has ever done this its amazing to watch how a subwoofer works! Their travel is incredible, and they shake the entire box to the point that you are afraid it's going to simply fall apart under its own air pressure & violent movement! It also gives you an even better appreciation to all the skill involved in getting a high performance subwoofer tuned to the point that it disappears into the rest of your system. Simply amazing!
Posted by: Zimm

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/17/09 02:58 PM

 Originally Posted By: Micah
The thing that prompted me to consider it was the fact that the cabinet gives of quite a bit of squeaking during playback both while the amp was removed, and when it is in place.


Now that surprises me. It should not move that much.
Posted by: grunt

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/17/09 04:17 PM

Micah, I would think that room treatments would do more to overall improve the subs performance than bracing and damping unless the subwoofer was poorly designed. Or do you already have that side of the equation solved?
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/24/09 02:32 PM

*** Update ***

Ok so I got my replacement sub in and replaced the bad one and put the new through its paces. It performed flawlessly! I even noticed a difference in music that I'd previously thought sounded fine. The bass sounded tighter and much more accurate. I was truely delighted!!!

I put 'Ironman' back in to reference the LFE that first made me aware of the bad speaker. The scene where Stark launches his demo missile went off without a hitch. No rattling or clanking. Just clean, low bass flowing from the EP800, now that's what I'm talking about! Watch a bit more, come to the scene where he puts the original suit on and marches through the cave. There's a TON of LFE going on in this scene. As he marches along something starts to rattle. At first I couldn't tell if it was a speaker or part of the sound track. I listened closer... by the end of the scene it was unmistakable, the other speaker also has something wrong with it. \:\(

It's not nearly as pronounced as the one I replaced, it made it through scenes the other one couldn't. But it's bad none the less. This is not what I was hoping for. Now my attenion shifts to what could have caused BOTH of my speakers to go bad? Did the problem with my amp allow my something to happen that damaged both speakers? It's about the only conceivable theory in my book. I simply can't imagine any possible way I was sent a unit with not one, not two, but three defective components. Something just ain't right here.

I guess I can replace this speaker too now that the amp is replaced and hopefully not damaging the new speakers. If the next one shows up and this doesn't clear up then I'll be at my witts end. I did discove one thing that I previously didn't even know about. I finally got the Denon to come back up on screen so I could go in and set all the speaker parameters and such. And while I was in there I found a setting called 'Subwoofer Limit'. It has you manually increase the LFE level until your speaker starts to distort and then it sets the limit just below that. I've never had that option set before, and my Cerwin Vega sub never distorted. Is this a setting many of you use? My biggest question is, doesn't the DSP chip in the EP800 control distortion? I didn't think I needed any kind of limiter on the EP800 because I thought it was already safeguarded against problems such as these?

So has anyone else ever had an EP500, 600 or 800 distort during very low frequency emissions? This is very disappointing. I was so ready to have these issue's behind me by now. I guess it's a good thing I never did the Dynomat experiment. I may end up having to send this unit back if I get yet another replacement woofer installed in it and it doesn't clear the problem up.
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/24/09 03:32 PM

Hopefully your problem gets resolved, that must be frustrating.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/24/09 03:40 PM

Very frusterating. The thing is they sound so incredible through 99% of the music I've played & 95% of movies. I'm almost certain it must have been whatever was wrong with the amp that must have caused the speaker damage. Its just to bizzare that they would strike out 3 out of 3 times in a single model.

The distortion in the left speaker is so much lower than the right side was that I couldn't hear it when trying to listen to them side by side before. Had I realized that they were indeed both bad I probably would have just sent this unit back in exchange for a new one.
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/24/09 03:50 PM

Probably best to exchange the whole unit, sounds like you may be right about the amp causing the damage, best to talk to Axiom(I'm sure you did that already).
Posted by: Da_Gimp_Pimp

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/24/09 05:26 PM

I say you rent a nice cottage in the Muskoka's for a holiday; bring your 800 along, and drop it off at Axiom's factory, then pick it up on your way home \:\) .

Frustrations gone!!

Also, yes the DSP does stop the subwoofer from going into distortion (as far as I know).
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/24/09 05:48 PM

I think I'm going to call & have a long talk with them this time to make sure I'm fully aware of everything & not doing anything wrong.
Posted by: Zimm

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/24/09 05:57 PM

Halo products can't act like that. You need a new unit factory tested so you know that if there is a problem it is on your end, not with the replaced components.

Good luck.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/24/09 10:36 PM

 Originally Posted By: Zimm
Halo products can't act like that. You need a new unit factory tested so you know that if there is a problem it is on your end, not with the replaced components.

Good luck.


I take it I can request this? I suppose after trying everything else it would be the logical next step.
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/25/09 10:41 AM

Here is a great reference page on how to set up a BD player using analog outs including a section on how to properly set up the bass management.

http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/How_To...s_And_Why.shtml
Posted by: Shaun

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/25/09 01:49 PM

wow, I hope you can get this situation behind you...that is odd for sure, but I agree, odds are it had to have been your amp
Posted by: Zimm

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 07/26/09 01:36 PM

 Originally Posted By: Micah
 Originally Posted By: Zimm
Halo products can't act like that. You need a new unit factory tested so you know that if there is a problem it is on your end, not with the replaced components.

Good luck.


I take it I can request this? I suppose after trying everything else it would be the logical next step.


Well, I would hope so. It is great to have fast shipments of new parts, etc., but at some point you just have to accept that the customer paid his money and did not get a working product. Fixing it is one thing, but I for one don't find the same comfort in getting a new product that works out the box and working on the entrails of an expensive purchase just to get it to function. Tweaking is great, but this ain't no DIY kit. A new big box should land on your door step.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/27/09 11:04 AM

Well I woke up this morning to find the second replacement driver sitting on my door step... that was nice. I called and talked to JC about the phase issue I'm having and asked if the 800 was designed to be 'in-phase' or 'out-of-phase', and surprisingly, he didn't know right off hand. So he said he would talk to Tom and get the right answer from him.

I know when I push one speaker in the other pushes out. But that's what it should do as it is a sealed enclosure (and air tight at that!). Pushing the one cone in displaces the air pushing the other cone out. So if that's the case, could they work in-phase in a sealed enclosure??? If it's air tight it wouldn't seem like they could work together going in and out at the same time... could they???

Anyhow, pray for me and my EP800!!!




P.S. (I was playing a wide variety of music this morning watching the cones to see if it's just a trick of the eye making it look like they're out of phase, or what. After close observation I can definately say that they are out of phase! They simply do not move in and out at the same time together).
Posted by: ClubNeon

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/27/09 11:37 AM

The volume of the 800 is enough that the pressure inside the box will change when both drivers are pushed out or pulled in.

Ported boxes can be smaller, and play louder because you can hear the back pressure wave from the cone.

Sealed boxes need to be larger so there enough volume of air to be easily compressed, but can be more punchy because the air acts as a spring.

So yeah, pushing one cone in will make the other move out as the box will try to maintain the same volume. But when they both are being driven there's enough energy from the amp to slightly compress or decompress the enclosure.

Of course all that is assuming both speakers are supposed to be in phase. I think they really should with how close they are to each other there would be a lot of cancellation if they were running out of phase. But I'm only an armchair speaker designer.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/27/09 01:29 PM

That was pretty much what I was thinking.
Posted by: alan

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/27/09 01:38 PM

Micah,

The woofers in the EP800 and all conventional speakers operate in phase, whether or not it's a sealed or a ported system. If the two EP800 woofers were out of phase, there would be zero output, or virtually that.

Since you have installed a replacement woofer and amplifier yourself, you might have inadvertently reversed the connections to one woofer.

I'm sure you've already spoken to JC, but for the benefit of others, I'll post Ian's method of verifying if woofers are in or out of phase:

"If you want to check that you got the woofer installed correctly, remove the amp and disconnect the speaker wires from the back of the amp. Using a 9-volt battery, touch the speaker wires to the battery posts following positive to positive and negative to negative. Hold the wires to the battery connection. Both woofers should move out and stay there. If one moves out and one moves in and they stay there then the one moving inwards is out of phase. If one cone moves out and one moves in but returns quickly to the centre position then that woofer is not working at all."

You won't damage the woofers using a 9-volt battery.

Regards,
Alan
Posted by: alan

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/27/09 01:46 PM

One other thing, Micah:

If one of the woofers in the EP800 cabinet wasn't working, it would appear to be operating out of phase because of the air pressure in the cabinet from the working woofer. In other words, as the working woofer cone moved inwards, the non-working woofer cone would move outwards.

Alan
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/27/09 01:58 PM

Yes I just talked to JC & he was going to send me that test via email. I will try that out tonight. If they are indeed in-phase then looks can definately be deceiving!!! Because looking at them from a multitude of different angles while they were really working hard, my fiancee & I both thought they seemed to be working opposite of eachother.

But the test should tell us if that's the case or not.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/27/09 08:47 PM

(bury's face in hands)...



Well, it's still there. \:\(


Installed the second new woofer, played it all day long (played it fairly low for the first few hours. Second few hours turned it up to about -20, then I started to push it a bit harder) with music, sounded great. After putting a good 7 hours of playing time on it, I gave it a break. Then I put in 'Iron Man' (my reference LFE DVD) and started to play the cave scene... the crackling sound is still there, and I might add, it actually sounds a bit worse with the new driver... WTF??????

Ok, time for the phase test. Could they have sent this big guy to me with the speakers out of phase??? It seems highly unlikely, the bigger question in my mind is, are they both playing, or is there a bad connection allowing only one to play? The single driven cone would move the undriven cone with the moving air inside the box, creating the appearance of two drivers running out of phase.

I shall conduct the test immediatelly. If they are indeed out of phase I will be shocked. If only one driver is being pushed, then I think it's time to box this guy up and ship it back to be replaced with a new unit. I think I've exhausted my ability to troubleshoot the problem. Time to see if another unit exhibits the same 'popping' sound as mine does. I would love it if SRoode would make his way east to check this out with me. Perhaps bring one of his 800's along to see if I can get his to do the same thing, or if his would just blow mine away!!!

That would be interesting!
Posted by: Wid

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/27/09 09:16 PM


You sure have more patience than I do, that sucker would have been sent back by now. I am surprised how much I have read on problems with their subs. For what's out there in the 800s price range you could get a whole lot of sub (subs) for less, I'm sure.
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/27/09 10:32 PM

It might be worth it to return it/refund it so Axiom can run this sub through some testing. It would ultimately benefit both parties in the long run.
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/27/09 10:53 PM

I would agree with that Doc. Micah, you've shown a lot of patience but it's not really you're problem to fix(great if it's a simple fix...but) and as Doc points out, it should be tested at the factory.
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/27/09 10:57 PM

 Quote:
Ok, time for the phase test. Could they have sent this big guy to me with the speakers out of phase??? It seems highly unlikely

Things happen. Changing phase is not that hard so do test that. While you have a driver out, play something at low volume to confirm that both drivers are working. If neither fixes the sub, send it back.

Edit: I see Alan posted a very simple method of testing to see if the drivers are in phase and working. Time to find a battery.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/27/09 11:03 PM

You've tried something other than Iron Man, right, with the crackling present? Can you confirm it with a direct connection to the sub (ie, an iPod or something)? I mean, I know that it keeps doing this, it just seems highly unlikely that it would due to a problem with the sub, what with every single component being replaced! Could it possibly be the output on your receiver?
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/28/09 01:27 AM

I am mystified. I did the battery test (cool test) and they are indeed in-phase, and both working. I guess the eyes are easily tricked because my fiancee and I both could have SWORE they moved independently from each other... that's crazy.

 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
You've tried something other than Iron Man, right, with the crackling present?



Oh yes, I certainly haven't left all this up to one track on one movie. It's present in just about any action movie I play with a lot of LFE in the sound track. One of the very few songs that can get them to 'pop' is Madonna's 'Rain'. After I played 'Iron Man' again and discovered the problem persisted, I turned all of the speakers besides the EP800 off and played 'Rain' at -10 on the Denon (for all you who don't own a Denon, my 4802's volume knob goes from -70 to +12) and they started popping then as well. Watching the drivers, they make the sound while they seem to be traveling at maximum excursion. But very few music tracks can actually push a subwoofer that far. It's mostly only in movies during scenes that have 'inaudible' soundwaves flowing heavily that push my drivers to react this way. Man this just totally has me befuddled. How on earth can I change out all of the components in this thing and there still be a problem???

Here are the facts, it was shipped with a bad amp. It started blowing fuses on the first day I had it, and that was a clear indication that the amp was toast. So they shipped me a new amp. I installed it and it worked like a dream. Then the first time I put a movie in (I believe either 'Iron Man' or 'Dark Knight') I noticed the speakers seemed to be bottoming out. After listening very close to a few more movies I realized there definately was some sort of problem. After much experimentation with placement, tightening things down, and getting it away from anything that it might be too close to and possibly making the 'rattling' sound, it did indeed seem as though one or both of the drivers were bad. So I sent off for a new driver, thinking that perhaps the faulty driver had burned up the amp while it was trying to push it! I received the new driver, installed it, and found that I hadn't solved the problem. Now my theory changed to the fact that the amp had been bad from the get-go, and most likely damaged both drivers accordingly. So I sent off for another driver, received it today, intalled it, and still with the fucking 'popping' sound... WHAT THE HELL COULD IT BE?????

I'm just so frusterated (not with Axiom, they have done anything and everything I've asked of them with more professionalism and genuine interest in resolving my issues as I've ever seen a company treat a customer with a problem.... my hat is off to you Axiom, and all of the truely great people working for you) and grumpy (nor with anyone on this forum, everyone's suggestions have been welcomed and appreciated... thank you all), because nothing seems to be able to phase this problem in the least. I mean how could it be that such a seemingly minor difficulty would absolutely refuse to react to any logical solution? It's wearing me out.

I can try the MP3 player test, but first I'll have to get a cord to connect it. When I connect it, will it just play the bass track? I suppose it could be the Denon's line out, but shouldn't the DSP chip refuse to allow it to bottom out reguardless??? That's what really has me blowing fuses in my brain, I can't understand how this could possibly be happening? At this point the only other far-out possibility that I could even fathom is that the cabinet itself has a flaw (after all it's the ONLY thing left that we haven't tried switching out yet eh) that creates the 'popping' sound whenever the bass gets really, really low.

I suppose I have been just a bit too patient. I guess there is a time when you just have to throw in the towel and say, "I give up", and let the professionals handle it. I didn't think it would be this difficult. How many things can go wrong with a subwoofer anyhow? Seems to me as if we've pretty much covered all the bases, and yet we've gotten nowhere. It's as if God just doesn't want me to have the ultimate subwoofer in my HT. Why God, what have I ever done to deserve this??? (don't answer that)


CALGON TAKE ME AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/28/09 01:38 AM

Yeah, it'll play what it's capable of playing up to (I think 150Hz?) You could also do this with just hte left or right analog out on a CD player.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/28/09 01:55 AM

Yeah Micah, puzzling indeed. I'm not quite at the point that we'd reached with Randy and the mysterious goings on in his HT when I suggested that he call in a priest for an exorcism, but we're getting there.

Edit: deleted a comment about doing the battery test for polarity, since I now see that you've done it and found no problem there. Shows that in audio we can't trust either our ears or our eyes! One step closer to an exorcism?
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/28/09 05:39 AM

Sweet Lincon's Mullet... that is one cool ass test!!!

Ok so I got the Sandisk out and hooked it up through a cord that hooks into the single input of the MP3 player then splits out into left/right... I hooked up the right side. I played 'Rain' (what else), and Good God Almighty, it seemed like it was outputting TWICE the amount of bass!!! I supposed this could be because the MP3 player was turned almost all of the way up compared to the Denon only being at around 2/3rds of the way up, eh?

So anyway, yeah it really rocked the house, I thought the speakers were at full excursion before... HELL NO!!! They were REALLY moving in and out while hooked up to the MP3 player, let me tell you!!! Anyhow, very ineresting observation, dispite them moving so much more, the clicking sound as actually not as bad. Yes it was still there, so there is still a problem, but why would it not be as bad??? That one has me stumped!

At any rate it sounds like a problem I'm not soon to figure out on my own, so it's still time to hand it over to the professionals.
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/28/09 09:37 AM

You might want to try a full reset on your denon (write down the values set up for the speakers, distances, manually re-enter the values and try some more tests while waiting to return it.
Posted by: ClubNeon

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/28/09 09:53 AM

 Originally Posted By: Micah
...it seemed like it was outputting TWICE the amount of bass!!! I supposed this could be because the MP3 player was turned almost all of the way up compared to the Denon only being at around 2/3rds of the way up, eh?

Oops, no one said to turn your player down before starting the test?

Yeah, almost full headphone level is way more voltage than 2/3rd of line level. -- Although some newer players do change the impedance they are driving and switch to line levels when lower than headphone impedance is detected. Still that would put out full line level, which would be like having the receiver at -0 dB.
Posted by: Zimm

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/28/09 10:43 AM

 Originally Posted By: Micah

At any rate it sounds like a problem I'm not soon to figure out on my own, so it's still time to hand it over to the professionals.


I again say call UPS, but is there any way you can get another sub (even a buy and return to Best Buy, etc) just to make sure your Denon is having a problem on LFE decoding? No doubt the sub has issues, but if you have a buggy chip that is dropping occasional bombs this problem will occur on any sub. Any, if this is the problem, you would not get the issue on non-LFE material. Just a shot in the dark, I heard you were dying for a few more wild ideas to try.

P.S. - I assume you already tested the ionic polarity by facing the sub to the east and playing Prince's Darling Nikki backwards on a turntable? If you don't hear Willy Wonka doing Gregorian Chant then the DTS sub-matrix is clearly out of whack. That should always be your first test.

For what it is worth, my cheap B&W sub does not output at a super high volume (10" w/ 300 wpc), but I've never heard a peep out of it that didn't sound right - even if "right" was over extension, or bottoming out due to my over zealous volume knob. So don't lower your expectations on this - you deserve a top flight sub for this price and should not settle for less just because we all think Axiom is a great company with great products and even better support. In the end, the product must stand on its own.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/28/09 01:48 PM

 Originally Posted By: Zimm

P.S. - I assume you already tested the ionic polarity by facing the sub to the east and playing Prince's Darling Nikki backwards on a turntable? If you don't hear Willy Wonka doing Gregorian Chant then the DTS sub-matrix is clearly out of whack. That should always be your first test.



Twice yesterday... once for each driver!
Posted by: Zimm

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/28/09 08:35 PM

Well then, your system is FUBAR.
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/28/09 11:15 PM

When John starts recommending exorcisms you know you are screwed!
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/29/09 04:18 AM

Oh great, I'm not even with a church right now, how am I supposed to... well hang on a second, do you... do you really think that would solve my problem? Which denomination is best at exorcising bugs out of HT systems anyhow? If I'm going to go begging the church for mercy, I'll want to go with the one that gives me the best chance at success!!!

Man if this works I'll be in heaven!!!











(...sorry for that)
Posted by: EFalardeau

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/29/09 06:43 AM

 Originally Posted By: Micah
Which denomination is best at exorcising bugs out of HT systems anyhow?

The Church for the second coming of SolidState.
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/29/09 01:14 PM

re: the MP3 player test, don't forget that MP3 players often have many "EQ" settings to, among other things, boost low frequencies for deficient headphone or source files.... FWIW...
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/29/09 01:55 PM

Yeah, I had the E.Q. set to max!




I was never a big fan of the Solid State church. They would give mighty praise to God, then turn around and talk about how ridiculous a notion Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary, and the Holy Ghost was!!! However they did always use plenty of googled material to support their views.
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/29/09 02:14 PM

Google is omniscient. Can I get an ahem?
Posted by: Murph

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 08/31/09 12:46 PM

 Originally Posted By: Micah
my fiancee & I both thought they seemed to be working opposite of eachother.


Ahhh, then all you really have to do is wait until you marry your fiance. Then she will automatically disagree with you, insisting that they are working together, and she will automatically be right so your problem is solved!
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/01/09 05:37 AM

Get married to solve my audio problem... hmmm, somehow that just can't be right!
Posted by: grunt

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/01/09 06:01 AM

 Originally Posted By: Murph

Ahhh, then all you really have to do is wait until you marry your fiance. Then she will automatically disagree with you, insisting that they are working together, and she will automatically be right so your problem is solved!


Impeccable logic. ;\)
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/02/09 05:53 PM

I sent out an email yesterday explaining to JC that even with a new amp and all new drivers, the EP800 is still not working properly. In it I suggested they fully inspect and test an EP800 and send it to swap out with this unit. I'm dying to know if this is truely a flaw in the cabinet or something, or if it's just a characteristic of the EP800, and Axiom subwoofers as a whole??? It's hard for me to believe that this is the way all Axiom subs perform... if so, then I simply can't fathom all of the praise that's been heaped onto them both in publications as well as here on this forum.

I could never accept the way mine has performed as a normal characteristic of a subwoofer that costs as much as the EP800 costs. Expecially when you take into account that it's a factory direct company that is supposed to be saving it's customers a lot of money. If Axiom speakers are supposed to perform on par with speakers costing up to twice their ticket price, then the EP800 should be able to compete with subs costing upwards of $4000+ dollars. That's some serious cabbage, and I can easily bottom this unit out at levels well below reference level playback. That simply should not be something I should be able to do. The add says, "...it tightly controls the signals to the 800-watt power amplifier and two massive 12-inch aluminum drivers with dual 3-inch voice coils to provide you with peak performance, never going over the edge into distortion. Crank it up - XLF makes the EP800 unbreakable"! Well, unfortunately this has not been the case with my EP800. I want to hear that unbreakable sub. If a replacement sub could sound as great as mine does during musical passages, and hit as low as it does WITHOUT bottoming out or clanking like it does, then I think I would definately keep it. It still isn't as loud as I would have thought it'd be, but I am satisfied with the level of output it currently produces enough to keep it anyway.

But the clanking has to go. I didn't pay two grand for my HT to start 'popping' during LFE moments in a movie nor reproduce anything at all but that which I was intended to hear out of a movie's soundtrack. If I didn't hear the clanking sound at the theater when Iron Man came storming out of the cave, then I shouldn't hear a clanking sound when he comes storming out of it in my living room. I am willing to keep on searching for a sub that will meet my expectations if I must. But, I'm still holding out on the wild possibility that it's somehow related to the cabinet. I guess we will see.
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/02/09 07:49 PM

Have you ruled out the possibility that something in the room is clanking?

(I'm not sure if this has been discussed already and I'm too lazy to check, so I apologize if you've covered this already.)
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/02/09 08:18 PM

Yes, I moved the speaker around in several different locations. Everytime the sound came from the speaker itself and not anything in the vicinity. I know how it looks, what with me and the woman both swearing that the speakers were running out of phase, when in fact the battery test proved otherwise. But I'm as certain as I can possibly be that the speaker itself is making this noise.

It actually sounds just like SRoodes did that he was having problems with. He thought his was hitting a wire or something and had talked about inspecting everything when the new amp came. I don't recall how his ordeal was resolved. But I remember thinking the exact same thing when the sound first introduced itself in my EP800. When I took the amp out I taped the speaker wire back to one of the braces to rule that out. Then I watched the speakers work from the inside to see if I could see anything at all that they could be hitting. But to date I've tried everything I can think of trying, and the sound is still there during really low frequency emitions. In fact I was playing some Tupak today and it started bottoming out during one of his songs.

It's actually quite rare during music playback. That Tupak song, and Madonna's 'Rain' are the only two that come to mind that I can specifically remember hearing the popping sound. But movies are a different story, at least 50 percent of movies will push it to bottom out (when I say 'bottom out' I only use that expression because that most accurately discribes what it sounds like it's doing. It may be something altogether different, but it sounds exactly like a speaker bottoming out). And as Zimm and others have pointed out, that's not something one should just 'accept' out of a speaker of this caliber.

And I imagine Axiom expects better out of their speakers as well. It certainly wouldn't do them any favors if I had my friends and family over watching a movie and it started making that disturbing sound. They would quietly make note of the brand and stay as far away from it as possible. And I wouldn't blame them, it really does become annoying while watching movies.
Posted by: Wid

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/02/09 08:44 PM

It would be interesting to hear a comparison of the 800 to something like the Hsu ULS-15 DualDrive. or its equal.
Posted by: Shaun

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/02/09 08:56 PM

Micah - Hopefully you can get this thing resolved to your satisfaction, and I do have to say you are a much, much more patient individual then I am. You paid good money for a seriously underperforming speaker....I think it is good that they are trying to work with you to get it right, but at this point, I would be asking for my money back and spend it elsewhere. For the price of the EP800, you can get some serious subs elsewhere (Epik, HSU, SVS). Heck, you could almost get 2 Epik Dynasty's for the same price (assuming you had the room, as they are BIG subs), and you would likely have enough sound pressure and LFE effects to crack your foundation (if you were so inclined). Or a Seaton Submersive, which, by almost every account I have ever read and come across, is the cat's meow. Point is, you have been more then patient, and are obviously a loyal customer, but how long has this been going on?
Posted by: Wid

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/02/09 09:04 PM

 Originally Posted By: Shaun
Micah - Hopefully you can get this thing resolved to your satisfaction, and I do have to say you are a much, much more patient individual then I am. You paid good money for a seriously underperforming speaker....I think it is good that they are trying to work with you to get it right, but at this point, I would be asking for my money back and spend it elsewhere. For the price of the EP800, you can get some serious subs elsewhere (Epik, HSU, SVS). Heck, you could almost get 2 Epik Dynasty's for the same price (assuming you had the room, as they are BIG subs), and you would likely have enough sound pressure and LFE effects to crack your foundation (if you were so inclined). Or a Seaton Submersive, which, by almost every account I have ever read and come across, is the cat's meow. Point is, you have been more then patient, and are obviously a loyal customer, but how long has this been going on?


Exactly!
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/02/09 09:16 PM

 Originally Posted By: Shaun
Point is, you have been more then patient, and are obviously a loyal customer, but how long has this been going on?



Well Shaun here's the thing, Axiom has done everything I've asked of them. I was the one who kept thinking I could solve this issue myself. They didn't coerse me into ordering replacement parts, I kept requesting them. It really did seem like it could/shoulda been an easy fix. But, it has proved to be quite stubborn. So I have nothing but the highest praise for the Axiom customer service team. Anytime I called and said, "hey I think this speaker is bad, maybe if you guys shipped me a...", before I could even get it out of my mouth they (usually JC) would say, "ok, it will ship out tomorrow... is there anything else you need"?

Seriously, that might be a bit of a stretch, but not by much. They are the greatest people ever to work with when you have a problem. Easily the best people I've ever had the pleasure of doing business with. In fact if anyone had a bad word to say about their company in my presence, we would probably come to fists over it! lol
Posted by: Shaun

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/02/09 09:42 PM

 Originally Posted By: Micah
 Originally Posted By: Shaun
Point is, you have been more then patient, and are obviously a loyal customer, but how long has this been going on?



Well Shaun here's the thing, Axiom has done everything I've asked of them. I was the one who kept thinking I could solve this issue myself. They didn't coerse me into ordering replacement parts, I kept requesting them. It really did seem like it could/shoulda been an easy fix. But, it has proved to be quite stubborn. So I have nothing but the highest praise for the Axiom customer service team. Anytime I called and said, "hey I think this speaker is bad, maybe if you guys shipped me a...", before I could even get it out of my mouth they (usually JC) would say, "ok, it will ship out tomorrow... is there anything else you need"?

Seriously, that might be a bit of a stretch, but not by much. They are the greatest people ever to work with when you have a problem. Easily the best people I've ever had the pleasure of doing business with. In fact if anyone had a bad word to say about their company in my presence, we would probably come to fists over it! lol


That is good to hear...hopefully you can get a brand new one and it is all you hoped it would be. Good luck!
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/03/09 08:55 AM

Well, everyone agrees that Axiom has great service overall.

I caught hell a few years ago for suggesting that Axioms' higher-ups should let "us" on the forums know when a new product is announced or something is changed.... but I still stand by that. Since we here often end up in something of a tech support role, I think we should have some information on such things.

Lately, I'm thinking that two different people have reported that the "volume" or "gain" knobs need to be turned up much more on their Axiom subs. Not surprisingly, when they come here and hear from others "Gee, my knob is only turned up a quarter turn... any more than that and I'd be replacing windows", they think there's something wrong with their sub. And no one from Axiom has dropped by any thread to say "we made a change", so the question STILL lingers as to whether or not these subs are defective or some change has been made.

God knows, I've stood on the soapbox regarding the stupidity / marketing necessity of volume knobs that provide full gain at a quarter-turn. I'd be happy to know if Axiom made a change allowing finer control over a longer rotation before max gain is reached... but if they don't tell "us", how can we tell others?
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/03/09 09:47 AM

You didn't get the memo, Mark?
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/03/09 10:18 AM

I'm reluctant to say it, but I'd like to see more Axiom involvement in the forums. *sniff* I miss Amie.
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/03/09 11:03 AM

I miss Amie too. Although Amie didn't get all THAT involved in most things here either.

It's true also that I think it's AMAZING that Axiom allows this forum to go, for all practical reasons, unmoderated. That really is a tribute to them.

But we all know that we significantly help Axiom out by answering many questions here such as "which model", "where do I place it", "what's the diff with V2 models", "what's with the binding post between banana jacks", etc., etc., etc... They would probably need another FT staffer to answer the questions that we answer here.

Because of that, I think when they DO make a mod or something, someone should drop by here to say so. As Axiom users, we would find it interesting discussion, and it would certainly help the next time someone new comes by and asks about it....
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/03/09 11:54 AM

I agree with what you have said in the last few posts. I am also curious about the EP500 amp thing. I have even suggested on the forum that they set a 500 up with the "new" amp and calibrate it in their demo room with a denon receiver (which the majority of Axiom owners use on the forum).

A lot of the times people do not know how to properly setup a sub but when there is more than few on here complaining about it I wonder if there is any quality control issues with them. It all starts with complaints slowly creeping on the forum. If it the second, you want to get the issue addressed as quickly as possible.
Posted by: Murph

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/04/09 10:38 AM

it is rare that heavy involvement in a forum by the actual company doesn't invite every troll on the internet to come and take a crack at them. It takes a very skilled official representative to stay out of all the traps set and such.

Currently, we enjoy a lot of freedom on this board and I'm pleased to say that people feel free to recommend other choices than Axiom when it fits someones budgets or particular needs.

Alan is pretty regular as a non-official spokesman but with obvious close ties to the inside. HE is always eager to help with technicalities and often goes back to Ian for us for confirmations on details.

Personally, I think they have struck a good balance between being helpful and not smelling like troll bait. Product changes and so on are a different matter. I can see some point to that but also can sense that the most innocent announcement can be misdirected by trolls. I'm undecided on that specific issue
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/04/09 11:19 AM

Well, start deciding, dammit!
Posted by: Zimm

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/04/09 12:58 PM

I think Mark's comments are right on - rare, but true this time. Axiom gets a huge benefit from this forum - I know, I'm a customer! Without the free on-line help available here, many would scare off of an Internet only company selling $1,000+ goods. I don't think Mark is saying they need a full time presence here, just that some technical data needs to be made available (even if only to trusted confirmed customers) if the forum is to provide it's best and truest role - i.e., free interns to negate the need for a larger sales and tech-support staff in the Great White North.
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/04/09 02:10 PM

There's interns? Where do I sign up?
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/08/09 12:38 PM

Well they've done it again, I sent in my request for a new, factory inspected EP800 too replace my faulty unit, this was the response I received...

 Originally Posted By: Jc
Micah,

Your EP800 should definitely not "clank". Axiom will especially test an EP800 for you and also specifically test it with the Iron Man movie scene (cave escape) which you are referring to. It should past the test with flying colors. Once it has done so; Axiom will ship it to you and get the one you have now back for further investigation.

The tests will be done this week.




This is the sort of customer service everyone would like to receive, but rarely ever do. Kudo's once again to Axiom!
Posted by: Zimm

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/08/09 02:00 PM

You can't ask for more than that. Their decision will encourage many more, like me, to buy Axiom next time. Glad it worked out for you.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/08/09 02:18 PM

 Originally Posted By: Zimm
You can't ask for more than that. Their decision will encourage many more, like me, to buy Axiom next time. Glad it worked out for you.



No doubt about that, customer confidence is everything, and with a safety net like Axiom's customer service team, how could you ever question making a purchase from them?

Heck this experience may ultimately get them another EP800 sold to none other than ME!!! Because you see, once I have two EP800's in my living room, well, of course I'm going to HAVE to hook it up as well to see what another sub in my living room sounds like! While my unit clanks during movies, it does the job superbly with music. So I'll place the new unit behind the couch, off to the side, in the corner and wherever else I can think of to test out how much the added bass response helps. And who knows, I may just like it so much I'll be forced to purchase another sub to attain that level of performance once I experience it!

Maybe this was Axioms plan all along? Lol
Posted by: grunt

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/08/09 02:38 PM

 Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson

It's true also that I think it's AMAZING that Axiom allows this forum to go, for all practical reasons, unmoderated. That really is a tribute to them.

It’s also a tribute to us.

I do agree with you that it’s most impressive that Axiom lets posts and threads stand that most other companies would delete.

I’m glad that Axiom insiders aren’t to involved in the forum because that way it sort of makes it our forum and not theirs. Also when one of them does post it tends to carry more weight just because they don’t post very often.

I’m also glad that we don’t a a FAQ section. Although some questions do come up quite often I feel answering each person individually rather than just yelling “READ THE FAQ” or something of the sort gives this forum a more small town than big city atmosphere. The articles section does sort of fill this role but not quite as cold and clinical as a FAQ
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/08/09 03:24 PM

Yeah, you're right, Dean!

Here's to US! \:\)
Posted by: grunt

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/08/09 03:33 PM

 Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
Yeah, you're right, Dean!

Here's to US! \:\)


Cheers!

Meet you in the “beer” thread.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/08/09 05:35 PM

I think you should give yourselves all raises!
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/08/09 09:13 PM

 Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
Yeah, you're right, Dean!

Here's to US! \:\)


*clink*

Whoo hoo!!
Posted by: Murph

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/09/09 07:45 AM

Did you try passing IronMan an oil can?
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/09/09 11:12 PM

I can't wait to get my next email from Noreen. It's kind of like waiting for your dad's next issue of Playboy to come in the mail when you were a young teenager so's you could sneak off with it once he fell asleep!!!
Posted by: Murph

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/10/09 08:11 AM

Ha!
My Dad would never order such a thing but when I used to visit him on weekends on the dredge when he was doing his turn for security duty, I discovered a pile of them in the head of the tugboat he used to let me play in.

I was too young to appreciate the magazines at the time but true joy for a young boy is having a real ship to pretend your sailing. Especially when he would turn on the radar for me for a few minutes. Many an enemy vessel was sank with my brilliant maneuvers at sea, let me tell you.
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/11/09 01:01 AM

Are you expecting a shipping notice this week for your 800 Micah?
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/11/09 01:20 AM

No word yet, but my fingers, toes, ankles, elbows and eyes are crossed!
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/11/09 01:28 AM

I am interested in what they are going to find wrong in the sub you are sending back. Good luck with the new one!
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/11/09 02:50 PM

You and me both!!! I just received the message from JC that the test is going great. He's sending me the results tonight (of the new sub). Then they'll ship it to me. Yeah it's really spinning my head what could be wrong with mine. After trying everything I could think of it's driving me crazy wondering what it could be???
Posted by: Zimm

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/15/09 05:37 PM

I hope you are prepared for the old Ford senario: "Sir we drove it all day long, and I took it on vacation with the family, but never done heard none of that 'clank' talk about." But at least it won't be followed by "and now you owe us $600 for our time looking for the clank."
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/19/09 12:45 AM

Well my luck just keeps getting better and better. I had totally planned on comparing the two subs side by side once the new, tested unit arrives (shipped out yesterday), but low and behold, just a few days ago I was playing some music, at very modest levels at that, and suddenly I noticed a lack of bass. I went into the HT closet and discovered the EP800 amp light was out... long story short, the damn thing blew a fuse! This is exactly what started this whole fiasco in the first place, the original amp blew a fuse the first day I used it. Then they sent me a new amp, and it's worked fine ever since. Now out of the blue this new amp craps out on me??? What is this unit cursed or something? Did someone in the plant die while putting my EP800 together and now he's here to haunt me for as long as I own this thing? This is just craziness!!!!

Oh well, I still plan on playing everything I can think of that drove this unit to 'clanking' like it did as soon as the new unit arrives. As long as it performs as well as JC and the rest of the crew over at Axiom found it to perform for them, then I will be one satisfied customer. However, if the new unit 'clanks' like this one did, then I suppose I'll be packing them both up. But I'm not going into this with any pesimism what so ever. I have all the faith in the world in the fact that if they put this new sub through the wringer over there at the Axiom factory, and it passed with flying colors, then it should perform superbly in my livingroom as well.

Now I just have to wait for it to get here! \:\(
Posted by: jakewash

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/19/09 08:38 AM

And hope the shipping doesn't do someting to ruin it for you. ;\)
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/19/09 09:56 AM

Don't curse me damn you!!!






lol ;\)
Posted by: Da_Gimp_Pimp

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/19/09 02:18 PM

I genuinely commend your patience. We all know that Axiom will "make it right", I just hope for your sake it is sooner rather than later.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/22/09 11:44 PM

Ok, there is some seriously, seriously, SERIOUSLY wierd stuff going on now!!!

I woke up this morning, drank my Redbull, did some work, and around 9:00 am the new EP800 arrived... FANTASTIC!!! I was so elated to finally hear this thing play I could barely keep my panties on. However, I had to go to Indianapolis, so alas the EP800 would have to wait on my return.

Ok so I got home around 9:00 pm and started hooking things up. I simply disconnected the RCA cord from the other EP800, and plugged it into the new sub, which was to remain standing outside of the HT closet for the duration of the test. Ok, so everything was plugged in, I played some music at very moderate levels with the 'gain' (volume) knob on the EP800 at zero and slowly raised it up to the half way mark and listened to a few songs. I thought it sounded really good. Then I turned it up even further (the Denon wasn't playing all that loud though, so I wasn't pushing it by any means. Although, after having been thoroughly tested out at the Axiom lab for a week, I really shouldn't have to take it easy at all).

So anyway, I was just about to start giving the Denon volume knob a turn when I suddenly heard a 'POP'... followed very shortly afterward by an identical 'POP', and then.... absolutely nothing, zilch, nadda, zero, negatory... WTF???? The power light is still on, though since I'm color blind I can't tell what color it is. When my fiancee wakes up in the morning I'll ask her if it's green or yellow. My guess is it's yellow, indicating a fault. What I can't understand is why??? This sub was located in a different location, using a different power cord. The only thing it shared with the other sub was the RCA cord. But if there is a short in it, then why did it work for so long in the old EP800??? And how would a short in the cord cause it to send the old unit into a 'bottoming out' situation?

Ok this is unbearably frusterating. There must be something wrong on my end, this unit can't be complete crap. But what can it be? Is it the output from the Denon? What problem exists that would cause one unit to play distorted, and send a second unit into fault almost immediatelly after hooking it up? I unplugged the new unit, checked the fuses (both good), then plugged it back in after about 15 minutes. Then I used a completely different cord and tried the MP3 player test again, but still nothing will play out of it. I'm assuming it's still in fault, but like I said I can't tell what color the light is.

I read the directions, but it doesn't say what to do if it goes into fault, it just say's a yellow light indicates fault. Does anyone know how to bring it back out of fault?

I can't believe my luck!
Posted by: JohnK

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/22/09 11:59 PM

Micah, I'd strongly suspect(as you also do)that something weird is going on in your other equipment. You've already done my number one cure: unplugging for a while, and I gather that you don't know a priest who does good exorcisms, so at the moment I'm again stumped. Will continue to ponder this, however.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/23/09 12:04 AM

No priest in his right mind would enter this living room knowing the circumstances right now. I'm thinking I need to throw my Denon into the mouth of an active volcano. However I want to test this unit with something else like the MP3 player or by plugging it into the back of the DVD player to see what happens before I write off the Denon. Is there a way to test the 'subwoofer pre-out' on the Denon to see if it's shooting lightning bolts or something?
Posted by: Shaun

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/23/09 12:05 AM

good lord....you are having some incredibly bad luck...is it possible there is a pinch in the rca cord somewhere? Is it inwall or out of the wall? if not that, thenI would think the Denon is the culprit...what are the odds of you getting 2 crap subs back to back, especially since they had tested this latest one so much??
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/23/09 12:07 AM

That is incredibly bad news, and luck, Micah.

I'm going along with everyone else and think that there is something amiss with the other equipment.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/23/09 12:10 AM

Well, the simplest way to eliminate the sub out as a problem is to instead hook up with speaker wire to the high level inputs(if the sub comes back on).
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/23/09 12:11 AM

I share that same thought, I just can't understand why it created different behavior out of the two units? Why didn't it just send the first unit into fault status as soon as I got the thing two months ago? Why did it play all this time (though not correctly) if it's a short in either the RCA cord or in the Denon itself?
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/23/09 12:18 AM

 Originally Posted By: JohnK
Well, the simplest way to eliminate the sub out as a problem is to instead hook up with speaker wire to the high level inputs(if the sub comes back on).



There's the million dollar question... will it come back on? What does 'fault' generally mean? Is it a protection circut that doesn't allow you to play it for a while until it recovers? Or do I have to send it back to the factory so they can fix it?

Oh God, please just don't answer that question if it's the latter of the two scenario's. I don't think I can go through any more of this waiting game. I currently have two EP800's sitting in my living room and no bass... that's kind of like having two playboy bunnies sitting on your lap and you find yourself unable to get an erection... it's enough to drive a guy to drugs!!!
Posted by: JohnK

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/23/09 12:26 AM

Unplugging for a while is supposed to re-set the protective circuit and it should work(at least when not connected to what's really causing the problem). 15 minutes should have been enough, but you can try longer if you haven't already done so. You say that you checked the fuses, but maybe you missed one?
Posted by: Murph

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/23/09 10:25 AM

I suppose monitoring it with a multi-meter would tell you if it's in the ball park. An analogue one is a bit easier to watch for brief spikes of weirdness. Someone else would have to tell you what the normal parameters would be to look for on a subwoofer output.
Posted by: alan

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/23/09 11:11 AM

Hi Micah,

I'm sorry to hear that you are having another problem with the new EP800 we sent you. I will tell you that I personally tested this new sub with a couple of my colleagues with the cave exit scene from Iron Man as well as the creaking pipes sequence from "The Haunting."

We did these tests at absurdly loud levels. The EP800 was turned to maximum volume and the Sherwood Newcastle AV preamp LFE output was set to +12 dB, its maximum. Only the subwoofer was operating, so we could zero in on any problems. During the first test, we heard on the Iron Man scene a slight clicking from the right-hand driver. By the way, I constantly repeated the same test sequence on the Vassallo demo EP800 in our listening room and also an EP500 we have in the room and both of those played the Iron Man sequence perfectly without distortion at maximum volume.

The woofer that occasionally made a clicking sound on the Iron Man sequence (I couldn't get it to make that sound on the creaking pipes sequence from The Haunting, which according to a reviewer friend of mine in New York, is a "subwoofer destroyer") was removed and a new one built by Mike Rogers. The new woofer was installed and that EP800 passed the tests perfectly. We sent it out to you, so any problems you experience are not the fault of the new Ep800, but somewhere upstream in your system.

Early on in this saga, I thought you might be running the sub output on the Denon into distortion. Some sub outputs will go into distortion if you run them too high, a variable that Sound&Vision used to test for but no longer does. I'd suggest you not run the Denon sub output level at more than +3 dB.

We also thought that if you were running the sub output too high, it might be overloading the DSP board on the EP800's input circuit, however we were not able to reproduce that scenario in our listening room (we don't have a Denon AV receiver here and use the Sherwood Newcastle unit).

All that said, early on in one of the threads I discovered that your listening room is more than 11,000 cubic feet. With a room that size, you should be using at least two large subs and preferably four. That room volume is more than five times the volume of a standard listening room (about 2,200 cu. ft) and no single subwoofer can possibly fill a space that size. The car analogy doesn't hold. The interior space of a car is tiny, only a few cubic feet, so it's easy to design a subwoofer to fill a car with bass below 20 Hz, using a fairly powerful amplifier. The interior space of my Honda uses a sealed 1.5 cu. ft sub enclosure, a 12-inch driver and a 180-watt power amp for the sub, and generates spectacular low bass to below 20 Hz.

There is something very wrong in your system and at this point I'm at a loss to suggest what it might be. But it isn't the fault of the new EP800.

Regards,
Alan
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/23/09 11:18 AM

I checked the fuses, they are fine. Besides, when the fuses blow (have had plenty of experience with this with the old unit) the light goes out. Now for the really bad news... my fiancee told me the light is green, indicating it is not in fault protection. So green light + zero output = ???

I think I might remove the amp to make sure the connects didn't fall off or something. That would explain why there's no sound at all coming from the sub. Anything short of that though would have me believing God doesn't want me to have bass. There would be no other explanation.

Ok, I'll report back shortly...
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/23/09 05:19 PM

Sorry Alan, I didn't see your post earlier.

Yes I agree that with this tested unit failing almost immediately I have to assume that the problem lies else where. The problem now is that the amp seems to be functioning as the fuses are intact and the power light is on and green, but there isn't anything coming out of it. I haven't plugged it back into the Denon, I've been trying to get it to play by hooking it up to my MP3 player and also my DVD player, and I've been using a different RCA cord. But I still can't get anything out of it. I haven't had time to take the amp out and check the connects yet, but I'm about to do that now. I'll let you know what I find.

Ok so I previously had the output from the Denon at +6 (+12 is the max), I didn't figure that was too much. So what you're saying is that at +6 the Denon could be overloading the DSP inside the EP800's amp and causing the distortion?
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/23/09 06:37 PM

Wow, what an experience you are going throught!

I just checked the sub level on my 2808 and its set to +7.5db.

Since I am running the sub channel through a Behringer FBD I can monitor the signal in so I bumped it to just below clipping.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/23/09 08:40 PM

Okay, Micah; the green light indicates that the sub amp is powering up, but apparently it's getting no input to amplify. Alan's report establishes that the sub was perfect when it left Axiom, but I wonder if the delivery in your area is exceptionally rough, even as those outfits go. As you've mentioned, check for loose internal connections.

Even if the connection from the line level input to the amp doesn't have any apparent problem, try inputting the signal with the speaker level inputs, as suggested before. To be continued(apparently).
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/24/09 05:18 AM

Ok I opened it up.... everything is connected nice and firm. No loose wires. No melted plastic. And still.... no sound. I don't understand what happened? If it would have blown the fuse I could have at least recognized that as the culprit behind what was happening before. But this is new, different, and terribly confusing to me. The amp is working, the speakers are all hooked up... I don't know.

As I said before I tried different sources with a different RCA cable with no luck. After taking the sub amp out and inspecting it I decided to run the 12 awg wire from the left speaker to the high current posts to see if they were working... didn't get a peep out of it. Mind you after I disconnected it and connected it back to the speaker I noticed they weren't playing much bass at all. Then I noticed the receiver was set to Neo-6, which takes most of the bass out of the left and right channels and redirects it to the sub. But still, there should have been SOMETHING playing out of it if it were working, I had the thing full blast after all. You don't have to connect to all four posts do you? Because I only connected to two of them. So now I can rule out that the RCA input jack failed.

I have but one small, tiny little, wee bit of optimism left in me. And that is.... 'third time's a charm'!
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/24/09 07:56 AM

This is in the EP500 troubleshooting guide.

Green Light On But No Audio

1) If using high level in, check that speaker leads are not reversed
2) Check input cable is completely inserted and working
3) Turn amp off and then on again
4) Speaker wire internally may be disconnected
5) Check the top 250mA fuse and the bottom 15A fuse (View Fuses)
6) Check your receiver menu settings to see if sub is turned on
7) Check that the fuse box is in 110 position for 110 use (220 position will have green light with no audio on 110 circuits)
Posted by: ClubNeon

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/24/09 07:57 AM

If you still have the other EP800 there, you could try the amp from that one.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/25/09 11:46 PM

The other amp is blowing fuses as fast as I put them in. My friend Shane is bringing an old sub he's had sitting out in his garage for the past few years tomorrow. If my Denon runs it ok then I'll know its not the culprit. If it fries his sub he said no biggie, he upgraded years ago and has no use for this one.

If my Denon does play this thing I'll be completely puzzled by all of this. Every other piece of Axiom equipment I own is top notch, incredible product... Why I'm having such rotten luck with their EP800 is beyond me. But reguardless of how this all plays out, I'll be an Axiom customer for life. There are still many products of theirs I intend on buying. If the Axiom sub doesn't work out for me, it won't change my opinion of their company or their product line. I'm sold on the performance of the other speakers I listen to on a daily basis. Which, while listening to music, I don't even miss the sub to be honest!
Posted by: Shaun

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/25/09 11:47 PM

you sir, have to be the most understanding and patient person I have ever seen...no way could I have been anywhere as patient as you...I hope you get it worked out
Posted by: Klugger

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/26/09 12:22 AM

Hats off to AXIOM for being very understanding and patient with a customers problems.Not to sound rude,But its time to start checking a few other things within your system.Good luck.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/28/09 01:33 AM

 Originally Posted By: Klugger
Hats off to AXIOM for being very understanding and patient with a customers problems...



No doubt about it. Read through this an other threads and you will see I give them major props and kudos for being such a great company to work with. Heck they even sent me a brand new, $2300 dollar sub before recieving their other sub back... now that's some serious TRUST in their customers!!! I'll be an Axiom customer for life, they have truely awesome products, and an even more awesome business model. There's no way I could say a bad word about Axiom... however.......

My friend Shane came over yesterday and he brought with him his old JBL 10 inch downfiring subwoofer that he's had sitting out in his garage for the past few years since upgrading to a new sub (a JL Audio Fathom F112). First off let me say that he was completely blown away by the size of the EP800 when he got to my house... "Jesus, that thing is a monster", was the first thing that came out of his mouth when he entered the living room and saw the sub standing next to my M80. Tis a shame we couldn't play it so that he could have heard how accurate it is.

So anyhow he carried in his JBL, and we hooked it up to the DVD player via an RCA cord he brought with him. Started playing a few CD's, and the sub played just fine. It was a pretty crude sounding sub after having gotten used to the musicality of the EP800, there is an amazing difference between a $300 dollar sub and a $2300 dollar sub, let me tell you. So after playing it through the DVD player with his RCA cord, we hooked it up to the DVD player via my RCA cord. Played a few more CD's, and the sub still played along without a hitch. Then we tried hooking it up to the Denon with his RCA cord... I started to play some music off the computer (which is what I listen to 90% of the time), and once again the JBL banged out the notes as it was supposed to. Ok, so with one last ditch effort to see if my system had some sort of flaw with it, I hooked his sub up to the Denon using my RCA cord, and plugged his sub into the same outlet the EP800 was plugged into when it fizzled out... nothing. Only I don't mean nothing came out of it, I mean nothing I had expected happened. I was truely convinced that somewhere in my equipment there was something going on causing the problems with the EP800's. But we played his little JBL for over 3 hours hooked up exactly like I had the Axiom subs hooked up, and nothing out of the ordinary took place. We played movies, TONS of music from both the computer and the DVD player, I even turned the Denon up all the way to +12 about half way through the test (was only running it at +6 with the Axiom) and nothing could break it. Mind you like I said it didn't sound one tenth as good as the EP800 did when the EP800 worked, but the test was to see if it was my equipment was shorting out the Axiom subs, it wasn't a sound-off.

After 3 hours Shane got brave and said, "want me to go get my JL"? I was scared, even though nothing had happened to his JBL, I think he said he paid roughly what the EP800 is worth for his Fathom. And I was terrified that if it did suddenly act up and blow his JL sub up, I wouldn't know what to do! But he assured me that he had no fear in the matter, plus I think he was really wanting to show off his toy! lol

So 30 minutes later he was back with the Fathom. First off let me just say that this little (well it isn't tiny or anything, but sitting next to the EP800 absolutely dwarfed it!!!) JL Audio subwoofer is one fine looking piece of equipment. I don't think I've seen a better put together audio product in all my days. It is definately first class, top shelf stuff. So with me sweating bullets he hooks up his new subwoofer and turns on the music. To my relief there was no smoke, no popping, no blown fuses or anything scary like that. It played just as surely as the JBL did. I have to say that to my memory, the EP800 was just as accurate as the Fathom was... I wished so bad that it could have worked so that we could have tested them head to head, but just relying on my memories, I didn't think the JL sub embarrassed the Axiom as far as musical reproduction went what-so-ever!!! But then we put a movie in... and then the Fathom shined, that little sucker can MOVE SOME GODDAMNED AIR!!!! It definately impressed me from the very start when we put in 'Finding Nemo' and played the aquarium scene... holy crap I thought my TV was going to fall off of the wall!!! It was loud alright, overpowering even... that's when I remembered the Denon was set at +12!!! I lowered it down to +4 and it was much more integrated from then on. Still loud, but at least I could hear my M80's as well as the bass after that! lol

So in all we played the JBL for about 3 hours and the JL Audio Fathom F112 for about 45 minutes to an hour, and neither skipped a beat through out the entire test. I don't know how to feel about that? I think I was actually hoping that the JBL would have blown up or something so that at least I would finally know forsure what the problem was. Now I'm more confused than ever. It's hard for me to grasp that I could really have this bad of luck with as many different parts and pieces as Axiom has sent me with this EP800. The odds are staggeringly against the possibility that there could be that many failures as I've experienced with all this. I don't know how to explain it? I'm completely at a loss right now. All I know is that I think I've had enough of this roller coaster ride. Every time I get a new piece in my hopes have been sky high that it would all be solved. But each time I've been let down, and nothing has worked. So I think I'm going to throw in the towel in my efforts to solve this problem I'm having. I guess I'll try a new direction, and see where it leads me.

One thing I have to mention... Shane was completely and utterly FLOORED at the rest of my Axiom system! He's running some Klipsch tower speakers and I'm not sure what else in his HT, and he said he never knew movies could sound that freaking good in a 'HOME THEATER'!!! I've never watched a movie at his house, so I can't really comment on the difference, but I could sure tell he became an instant fan! He started asking me tons of questions about Axiom... how much they cost, where he could buy them, different models they made, if they made TV's or Blu-ray players, yada yada yada... I have no doubt in my mind at all that his system is going to get upgraded in the near future, he simply couldn't believe how affordable the M80's and the other speakers were. He said he'd never even heard of Axiom before. It was an eye opening experience for him to hear a well tuned 5.1 channel system playing a well recorded movie. I think I could see in him what SRoode must have seen in me when I went over to his house and experienced his Axiom set-up way back in... what, March??? Wow, how time flies!

I just wish my EP800 could have played as well as Steve's did! \:\(
Posted by: grunt

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/28/09 01:57 AM

Thanks for taking the time to write up your experience. Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t you already replace the amp in your first EP800. If so did you ever ask Axiom what if anything the found wrong with it?

You’ve also been very patient through this. Any chance your going to try another amp? Ever thought of getting a smaller subwoofer like the EP500 and adding some Buttkickers to carry the very low end. Good luck finding a sub that goes as low with as much authority as a Buttkicker, not that there‘s much 5Hz material out there.
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/28/09 01:59 AM

I'll be looking forward to seeing what you do end up with for a sub or subs. I can certainly relate on the wanting things to just work. I had my own string of bad luck with the EP800s. However, when I finally had them send completely new units, those ended up working. I'm glad they did, or I very well could have started looking elsewhere myself. While it's always exciting looking at new products, it's also nice to have the decision made.

I would love to see one of the JL subs in person. They certainly do look well-made from what I've seen online.
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/28/09 08:33 AM

Micah, did you ever try Alan's suggestion to run the sub below +3db?
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/28/09 10:47 AM

I never got the chance to. His suggestion came after the sub stopped playing. I will not bad mouth the EP800 because I heard SRoodes twin 800's produce awesome bass (although he did have one that had a bit of a clicking noise coming out of it, wonder how he solved it?), so I know they are capable. But what I will say is that the comment that playing them above +3 'could' be overloading the DSP & causing the distortion was a bit disappointing to me. After all when you read the write-up on the sub it is discribed as 'unbreakable'... Well the JL was playing at +12 without a hint of distortion for quite some time. This is the kind of trait that I'm looking for in a $2000+ dollar subwoofer. Even if I don't play it up there (as I said, at that level the bass was truely over powering!), I would still like to know I 'could' if I wanted to. Does that make any sense?

I thought long & hard all day yesterday about my next step. The idea of getting a new amp in & everything did run through my head, but honestly, I think its better for both me and Axiom if we just put an end to this debacle before it goes south! I've said time and time again that they're customer service is simply brilliant, but I don't want to push it any further. They've been great, I'd hate for my experience to drag on any longer & test their patience. Also I really don't want my experience to put a dark cloud over Axiom in any way, shape or form! I don't doubt that Axiom makes great equipment, I just consider my own luck the exception, not the rule.

What truely does suck is that the EP800 was so perfect sitting at the bottom of my HT closet & all. I did love having the same name brand through out my entire system. That's the hardest part to get over, the fact that I'm going to have to change up the mix, as well as wondering what the hell I'm going to do with that huge hole in the bottom of my HT closet??? I suppose I could make another shelf down there for future electronics and the like.

It won't be the same, but it's about the only thing I can do. What are the chances I could find another manufacturer that produces a sub with the same dimensions that would fill that space, eh? I'd say little to none!
Posted by: alan

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/28/09 11:47 AM

Hi Micah,

Just a slight elaboration on my recommendation for you to avoid running the Denon LFE output at levels higher than +3 dB. That was simply my erring on the side of caution. We don't have a Denon at the Axiom plant, I don't use one, and I have no idea whether the Denon LFE output produces distortion when you run it at higher levels. This was speculation by Tom, our chief electronics engineer, on what could possibly be wrong in your setup. We have never experienced the DSP of any of our subs, including the EP800, being overloaded and as I mentioned in a previous post, we ran the Sherwood Newcastle to +12 dB with no negative effects in our test of the EP800 we sent you.

The "unbreakable" comment is referring to the limiter in the DSP and amp section, in that with any of our DSP subs, you can keep turning up the volume of the sub itself to maximum and the DSP/limiter will prevent damage to the driver or the amplifier because the DSP is programmed with the limits that can be endured by the driver and the amplifier. It is not related to the theoretical situation of sending a distorted signal to the input of the subwoofer. While I have not encountered an AV receiver that goes into distortion when the LFE output is raised too high, an informed former colleague at Sound&Vision magazine did find that bench testing of some AVRs revealed the LFE output would go into distortion if raised too high.

Look, at Axiom we've being going nuts trying to figure out what the f*** is wrong in your system, so we've been grasping at the most extreme scenarios. I'm sorry you are so far away, relatively, because my technical curiosity is such that it's bugging me no end as to what is at fault in this seeming weird incompatibility of the EP800 and your Denon. If I believed in such things, I'd say the odd behavior is the result of a poltergeist caused by a teen-ager with overactive hormones in the area.

It may be that we have to write this one off as one of those weird flukes that occasionally occur.

Regards,
Alan
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/28/09 12:26 PM

Lol, I think we are both in the same boat. If you and your engineering team (and possibly a priest who does exorcisms) ever find the time and money to take off to Indiana for a thorough study on the weird behavior of my system, I would be most willing to accomodate you all!!! \:\)
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/28/09 12:29 PM

Alan will be the one wearing a "Will Reverse-Engineer For Beer" T-shirt. \:\)
Posted by: jakewash

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/28/09 12:35 PM

Micah, I just realized what the problem is, you have an Emotiva amp running with M80s, with those 2 items working together the Audio Gods are forced to condem something else in your system and they have chosen the subwoofer. ;\) \:\)

So when are you going to modify your subwoofer space to handle dual F112's? \:\)
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/28/09 12:35 PM

Alan and Micah,

I make house calls and am a *great* troubleshooter. I only ask for airfare.





Ok, and beer. \:\)
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/28/09 02:23 PM

Yeah!


"Ding dong!!.....::runs and hides behind shrubs, snickering::
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/28/09 02:25 PM

I don't think "great troubleshooter" and ding dong ditch go together.
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/28/09 02:29 PM

With Peter, we might have to take him literally when he says "troubleshooter"--I'm picturing him with a 12 gauge to solve Micah's subwoofer woes.
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/28/09 02:36 PM

Just to be clear, you're talking about him shooting the subwoofer and not Micah, right?
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/28/09 02:38 PM

He's far more likely to use a baseball bat on Micah.

WITH Micah. WITH Micah. That's what I mean, yeah...
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/28/09 04:24 PM

The audio Gods are most definately not happy with me. What else could explain $5600 dollars worth of subwoofer gear sitting in my living room not making a sound? I wonder, if I threw the XPA-3 into the local volcano (.... um, just where is the nearest active volcane to Indiana, anyone know?), if that would appease the Gods and the EP800's would spring back to life??? I think it would be worth a shot, I've tried everything else to date.

Ok seriously though. The Fathom was indeed a force to be reckoned with forsure. But to be honest, while listening to music through it I felt like it was missing a little something. Like the 800 was... hmmm, how do I discribe it... warmer? I'm not sure that's the correct discription. All I know is that it didn't sound quite as good. Not that I know where to fault it, as it didn't demonstrate any faults per sey. I guess maybe it's just a case of me getting to know the Axioms and falling in love with them, and the JL Audio's just not being 'them'. Like if I'd purchased the Fathom first and gotten to know it and then listened to the EP800 I might think it sounded muddy or... I don't know. I've owned JL car subs and absolutely LOVED them, so perhaps it's just that I'm not used to it compared to the Axiom. All I know is I still longed for the EP800 when we were testing both subs out, EXPECIALLY the JBL!!! Actually he left the little JBL here for now so that I have some bass. But I have it turned off while I'm listening to music because it adds nothing of value to music like the 800 did. I only had it fired up last night while watching 'Dirty Dancing', which I guess it did alright with. Still nothing close to what I was used to.

I'll bet if I auditioned a Fathom for a week or so I probably wouldn't want to give it up. But hey, now that I'm used to twin 12 inchers I guess I need to go with the F212... but then why throw a latteral pass when I can throw the bomb and get the Gotham F213??? Once I return these 800's and get my money back I'll only need another ten grand. Guess I better start a collection, how's this... for anyone making a donation of $1000 dollars or more, you can come by and hang out anytime you like. And for anyone donating $5000 or more, you will be entitled to a full week per year in my home theater for the rest of your life! Sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me!!! ;\)
Posted by: jakewash

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/28/09 06:27 PM

I know that 'warm' Axiom sub sound very well and that is what I miss most with my PB13 when listening to music. I may just purchase an Ep350 so I can have the best of both worlds.
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/28/09 09:19 PM

 Originally Posted By: Micah
I only had it fired up last night while watching 'Dirty Dancing' . . .



Um, say what?
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 12:06 AM

Ok, YES I admit it... in memory of Patrick Swayze I watched 'Dirty Dancing'... gosh, am I the only sentimental geek on this board???
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 12:07 AM

Next time pick "Red Dawn."


\:D
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 12:09 AM

Oh... (runs, turns off 'Ghost', fumbles through movies... can only find, 'Road House'... figures it's close enough...) OK!
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 12:30 AM

LOL!!


I admit, when flipping channels, I CAN'T turn "Road House" off. There is just something about it.
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 12:50 AM

I still haven't seen Road House. I've caught a couple minutes, maybe, is all. I never watched Dirty Dancing, either.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 12:51 AM

 Originally Posted By: St_PatGuy
LOL!!


I admit, when flipping channels, I CAN'T turn "Road House" off. There is just something about it.



Oh yeah! I still think saying, "I used to fuck guys like you in prison" is probaly the number 1 worst thing to ever say in a fight... from that point on it doesn't matter what happens, you are automatically the loser by default!
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 12:51 AM

Charles, I can't even recommend adding either to your Netflix queue.



But, as you can see from Micah's post above, Road House has a certain charm to it.
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 01:02 AM

I actually canceled my Netflix account since I was so behind on watching stuff as it was. At first I just suspended it, but the other day I went all the way.
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 01:05 AM

No way! I mean, I've got a ton of stuff to watch too, but I intend to. . .one at a time. Well, I'm on a cheap plan so it doesn't bother me so much. Only get one at a time. If I paid more, I'd feel horribly obligated to watch stuff all the time. This way it's nothing to really sweat.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 01:07 AM

 Originally Posted By: CV
I still haven't seen Road House. I've caught a couple minutes, maybe, is all...



What??? Dude, you have to see 'Road House', you HAVE too!!! Otherwise you'll never get it when someone says, ".... a polar bear fell on me"...



Ba ha hahahaha hahaha ha hahahahaha hahaha ha ha!!!!


Trust me, it's funny when you've seen the movie! ;\)
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 01:08 AM

My parents got a Netflix account, and they mainly use the streaming, so they said if I wanted to choose discs, I could. I'm sure I'll take advantage of that at some point.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 01:09 AM

A polar bear fell on me....
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 01:09 AM

 Originally Posted By: Micah
Trust me, it's funny when you've seen the movie! ;\)


Your enthusiasm is almost selling me. \:D
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 01:10 AM

...see, nothing! If only you'd seen the movie Charles, if only!
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 01:10 AM

 Originally Posted By: CV
My parents got a Netflix account, and they mainly use the streaming, so they said if I wanted to choose discs, I could. I'm sure I'll take advantage of that at some point.


Tell them you want to get Road House. And be serious about it. Game face.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 01:12 AM

Yeah just tell em, "I wanna be able to laugh when someone says, "a polar bear fell on me"... they'll understand.
Posted by: Ajax

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 11:01 AM

 Originally Posted By: alan
I'm sorry you are so far away, relatively, because my technical curiosity is such that it's bugging me no end as to what is at fault in this seeming weird incompatibility of the EP800 and your Denon.

Alan, let's get this straight. You're the one that's "so far away" (up there North of the Arctic Circle). Micah's just around the corner in Indiana.



;\)
Posted by: Murph

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 11:50 AM

Coincidentally, I watched Road House in my hotel over the weekend. It wasn't as fun as the first time I watched it years ago but for simple entertainment purposes, it still does the job. Although now that my eye for fighting techniques is a bit more critical, I have to say Patrick's kicks were pretty sad looking. He perhaps needed a bit more time with his production trainer.
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 01:09 PM

 Originally Posted By: Murph
Coincidentally, I watched Road House in my hotel over the weekend.

In your hotel room, eh? You sure that wasn't Road Ho's?
Posted by: Murph

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 01:45 PM

My expenses were being paid by the United Way of Canada - Centraide Canada so I had to behave myself.

Actually, any incidentals would have been out of my own pocket but I honestly can't see me paying for either of those movies. LOL
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 02:23 PM

 Originally Posted By: Murph
...but I honestly can't see me paying for either of those movies. LOL




Well, if YOU'RE the one having to pay, then I guess at least 'Road House' will bring you an hour and a half of mild entertainment while 'Road Ho's' will only garner 10 - 15 minutes of INTENSE entertainment before you suddenly loose interest! ;\)
Posted by: alan

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 02:42 PM

Hi St.Pat,

Yeah, I was on the one-at-a-time cheap plan as well but recently upgraded to the two-at-a-time so I could quickly order in a copy of Iron Man (cave-exit scene) to take with me to Axiom to perform the Micah test (full volume on the EP800). The movie was OK and there's certainly lots of low-frequency stuff for testing.

Now the DVDs of "Lost" are building up and I'm falling behind--slogging my way through Season 3, Disc 4.--so I may downgrade again to the one disc per week thing.

Alan
Posted by: alan

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 02:50 PM

Ajax,

Ha, ha! Although when I wrote that, I was back on the East Coast in my New York apartment. Actually, Axiom may be closer to Indiana in air miles than New York.

Of course, "far away" is all relative. It's funny here in Manhattan, which most New Yorkers think is the center of the world. Some of my neighbors give me this weird look when I tell them I've been up to Northern Ontario to Axiom, as if I'd travelled to the Yukon or Nunavit. They think leaving the isle of Manhattan to journey to Brooklyn (over the the Brooklyn bridge or by subway under the East River) is a long trip!

Regards,
Alan
Posted by: richeydog

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 03:23 PM

 Originally Posted By: St_PatGuy
LOL!!


I admit, when flipping channels, I CAN'T turn "Road House" off. There is just something about it.


Yeah, those hairy chests and roundhouse kicks really turn me on...
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 04:02 PM

How come nobody ever talks about this Patrick Swayze movie?

Movie clip
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 05:01 PM

Um... wow, and I thought 'Dirty Dancing' was gay.




Just how many cheesy movies did Patrick star in anyway???
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 05:04 PM

 Originally Posted By: Micah
...Just how many cheesy movies did Patrick star in anyway???




Ok I'll go ahead and answer my own question since it's so obvious...


Q - how many cheesy movies did Patrick star in?
A - all of them.
Posted by: Zimm

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 05:52 PM

Micah, now that you know how to install the drivers and amps on a sub, you should take advantage of the JL sale on W7 subs. For about $900 (each) you could order two W7 drivers, the same drivers used in the Gotham and Fathom, and $700 for a Class-D mono amp. Build a fiberglass box real quick in the garage, and it would sound just like a Gotham 213! Well, probably close anyway.
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 05:57 PM

Do they use fiberglass enclosures just for aesthetics or is it for other reasons?
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 06:43 PM

Well actually if I were design my own sub I would use the W6v2, not the W7. I had a box with W6v2's in them and they were way more musical/accurate than a friend of mine who had W7's in his trunk. The W7 is a MASSIVE sub designed for one thing... SPL!!! And it achieved that objective and then some. But the W6v2 sounded way better to both of us.

A DIY project is not out of the question at this point. I really don't have anything in mind yet. I've been contemplating installing some 12 inch subs in my ceiling and building box's around them in the attic even. I don't know what sort of problems that may present, but it's an interesting idea. I'm not saying that's what I'm planning on doing, but like I said, nothing has been ruled out as of yet.
Posted by: BigHonu

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/29/09 07:26 PM

If you like diy, then maybe give a horn loaded/transmission line sub a go? Cheap enough that it won't break the bank if it doesn't work out. I was headed in this direction, but the shipping costs of the components killed the project.

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/

I was going the Table Tuba route, but if you have room for 2 800's, I'm sure you could fit a Tuba HT or maybe 2 HT's stacked.

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/THT.html
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/30/09 12:24 AM

Hmmm... interesting. So those are just the plans eh, you buy all the materials separate? One question, when building a DIY subwoofer, when you buy a plate amp do they come with crossovers built into them, or do you have to build a crossover for it as well? Because building the box, installing some speakers, running the wire and connecting it to a decent plate amp would not be that hard to do. But it I had to build a crossover on top of all that, then I might start to feel a bit overwhelmed.

I have no idea at all on how to build a crossover.
Posted by: BigHonu

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/30/09 06:03 AM

Yeah, buy the plans and purchase and assemble the components on your own.

Looking through some of the completed projects, some guys got creative and made the enclosures into cabinets to store CDs/DVDs.

The plate amps I found at Parts Express had crossovers already built into them.

The horns are pretty interesting stuff in terms of efficiency and extension. I imagine that they are not more popular because of the large enclosures.
Posted by: davidsch

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/30/09 07:14 AM

 Originally Posted By: Micah
Um... wow, and I thought 'Dirty Dancing' was gay.




Just how many cheesy movies did Patrick star in anyway???


Since we are talking about Patrick Swayze, I will throw in my two cents. I went to high school with his younger brother Sean (he was a year older than me I think) and let me tell you he was one hellraiser. I can't think of one movie of Patrick's that I really enjoyed though.
Posted by: Zimm

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/30/09 09:54 AM

My understanding is that they use fiberglass (as many custom car subwoofer builders do) because it can be built to be extremely rigid, but allows for any shape. The JL box uses some unique curves that would near impossible with MDF (except for B&W!). I forget where, but I saw a thread on a tour of the JL plant and they show the how-to on the Gotham build. Very interesting, but not really DIY type stuff. But for $12K I guess you don't expect to have a souped-up DIY project.
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/30/09 03:05 PM

Curved cabinets don't really have any effect on subs due to the low freq's though, right? I understand why many speakers are made with curves(cancelling standing waves) or angles but where a sub is concerned it must be for looks(a car application would be the exception with confined space).

The tour of the JL plant, is on their website I believe.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/30/09 04:03 PM

I have to say that back in the day I thought Patrick was great. It's just looking back on them now they seem pretty cheesy, but that's just the way it goes, over time most of what we used to consider cool becomes 'cheesy'.

I was really sad when I heard he'd lost his battle with cancer because I am a cancer survivor myself. However once I started reading up on his ordeal I found out that through everything he went through his wife failed in being able to convince him to give up on his '60 cigarette per day' habbit.... ummm, WHAT???

Ok so yeah cancer sucks, I know that first hand. But brother when you're fighting a life-threatening disease like that, you have to take off the gloves. That means.... uh, QUIT SMOKING!!! Not only is it probably the reason you have it in the first place, but going through all the chemo and radiation treatments is pretty pointless if you're just going to run out and breath in 3 packs of cigarettes that day. Sheesh, I still feel bad for the dude, but not AS bad knowing that he didn't give the battle his all. I know quiting smoking is no day at the park, I went through that too, but when it comes to life or death, the decision shouldn't be that hard.
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 09/30/09 07:11 PM

 Quote:
... I found out that through everything he went through his wife failed in being able to convince him to give up on his '60 cigarette per day' habbit.... ummm, WHAT???

Thats the nature of addiction. My father lost 3 close friends to cancer: lung and throat. The smoked to the bitter end. My father never quit either.
Posted by: wilwom

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/01/09 01:01 AM

 Originally Posted By: Micah
I know quitting smoking is no day at the park, I went through that too, but when it comes to life or death, the decision shouldn't be that hard.


I hear you. I've been smoke free for 35 years, except for one memorable night of debauchery on a business trip to Korea 20 years ago. But that's another story.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/01/09 10:33 AM

Yes I know all about addiction, it is an animal. I smoked until the day I saw my grandmother sitting in the hospital, dying of cancer (even though she didn't smoke, nor as far as we could tell did it have anything to do with grandpa's smoking habit... still I associated my smoking as leading me to the same place). It was by no means an easy thing to do, but I kept picturing my grandmother all doped up on moriphine, days away from death, and telling myself all the torture I was going through was to keep myself from winding up like she did.

The ironic thing is that at age 35, a full 12 years after quitting smoking, I wound up with Hodgkins Lymphoma and Squamous Cell cancer AT THE SAME TIME!!! And having experienced the fear that is knowing there is something inside your body trying its best to end your life, I can safely say that would have motivated me 100 times better than my dying grandmother ever could have. Even if I'd never been able to quit back in my 20's, it would have been an after thought once I was battling for my life.

Patrick made a few television interviews where he admitted he was scared and mad... mad because he wondered, "why me"? Now honestly, how can you suck down a cigarette every 16 minutes (the average time inbetween cigarettes in a 60 a day habit... assuming he didn't smoke during 8 hours of sleep) and with a serious face ask, "why me"?
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/01/09 01:14 PM

60 a day is indeed a lot...wow! Instead of having 1 cigarette after a meal he probably chain smoked one after another, after another, after another, lighting his fresh smoke with the one he is about to butt out in the ashtry and then mulitply that many times a day to equal 60 \:o
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/01/09 03:44 PM

It's been said that 1 cigarette takes 11 minutes off your life, and on average non-smokers live 10 yrs longer than smokers. No doubt smoking is an addiction and should be treated as such. Aside from the obvious health benefits, the cost of smoking (in real $$, let alone health)is a big enough deterent for me.
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/01/09 04:09 PM

I just watched Thank You for Smoking last night. Good movie. \:\)
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/01/09 04:14 PM

As a fan of Aaron Eckharts work, this is a great movie. Agreed!
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/01/09 09:12 PM

Yeah that was a great movie. The twist was so perfect at the end. Extremely satisfying!
Posted by: Da_Gimp_Pimp

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/01/09 10:00 PM

My uncle just had a heart attack on the weekend and had to be revived with the paddles. He had to wait a couple days before they could fly him to Toronto because he was unstable.

He's had at least one heart attack prior to this, along with two bypass surgeries, one of which was a triple bypass. He also continue smoking. I confronted him about it the last time I saw him and he just blew it off with a joke.

I can guarantee you this, if I ever walk again (which I won't), I nor anyone else would want me to take a chance at riding my bike off that 3 foot platform again.

When my sister initially told me about my uncle it didn't hit home as hard as it would have if he actually took care of himself. I literally said " well he continued to smoke" right after she told me.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/02/09 09:07 AM

 Originally Posted By: wheelz999
When my sister initially told me about my uncle it didn't hit home as hard as it would have if he actually took care of himself. I literally said " well he continued to smoke" right after she told me.




Yeah that's the sad part, it's hard to give all of your sympathy to someone who does it to themselves. But if you aren't going to care about yourself, then I guess you shouldn't expect others to either.
Posted by: Zimm

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/02/09 09:55 AM

Micah, I'm sure you know this, but I wanted to let the others know that it turns out the String Theory has been supplanted by the Membrane (or Brane or M-) Theory due to unresolved problems in the 11th dimension. Thus, they cured the singularity (big bang) problem via many parallel universes. Not positive, but I think this means there might be an opening for your theory on Simple Gravity! Just and FYI.


\:D

Sorry, could not pass that up after watching a PBS show on the topic. The resultant feeling of stupidity on my part (I can't seem to get past the 9th dimension) is only quelled by poking fun at other.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/02/09 11:20 AM

Well, I hate to say I told ya so, but.......





;\)
Posted by: Wid

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/02/09 10:43 PM

 Originally Posted By: wheelz999
My uncle just had a heart attack on the weekend and had to be revived with the paddles. He had to wait a couple days before they could fly him to Toronto because he was unstable.

He's had at least one heart attack prior to this, along with two bypass surgeries, one of which was a triple bypass. He also continue smoking. I confronted him about it the last time I saw him and he just blew it off with a joke.

I can guarantee you this, if I ever walk again (which I won't), I nor anyone else would want me to take a chance at riding my bike off that 3 foot platform again.

When my sister initially told me about my uncle it didn't hit home as hard as it would have if he actually took care of himself. I literally said " well he continued to smoke" right after she told me.


I smoked when I had my heart attack back when I was 47. Now I watch what I eat and my blood work shows this. I have not smoked one puff since that day nor do I allow it in my home.

Thank God things have been going good since and I am real close to 51 now.
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/02/09 10:50 PM

 Quote:
heart attack back when I was 47
\:o
That must have scared the bejesus out of you!! The 40s is the time you realize your not 20 anymore, but no way you think the Grim Reaper will come knocking.
Posted by: RickF

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/02/09 10:54 PM

 Originally Posted By: wid

Thank God things have been going good since and I am real close to 51 now.


A wet behind the ears kid.

\:D
Posted by: Wid

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/02/09 10:54 PM


It was a close one too. They had to insert a heart pump for a few days as my heart was to weak to work on it's own.

The Cardiologist told me if I had been 15 minutes later I wouldn't have made it. I was and am a very lucky person.
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/02/09 10:57 PM

I begin to truely appreciate your 'Q pics. ;\)
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/02/09 10:59 PM

That's pretty incredible, Rick.

Wow, 15 minutes is not a big window.
Posted by: Wid

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/02/09 11:02 PM

The type I had was the widow maker. (left coronary artery) I recall being awake on the operating table when they broke the blockage loose they had to shock my heart back into rhythm, man I'm telling you that crap hurt like heck.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/02/09 11:12 PM

Glad you're still with us Rick. \:\)
Posted by: Wid

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/02/09 11:14 PM


Thanks Jay, me too \:\)
Posted by: JohnK

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/02/09 11:16 PM

Me too.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/03/09 12:56 AM

Yeah if you think having a heart attack at 47 is pre-mature, try finding out you have two separate forms of cancer at the ripe old age of 35. I hadn't smoked in 12 years, I was excersizing regularly and treated my body like a temple... to say I was shocked would be an incredible understatement.

So just how long did it take you to stop smoking then Rick? Was the pain you experienced on the operating table enough to enable you to ditch the habit at that very second? Or did you still struggle for a while? This is what I was talking about with Patrick... it's all fun and games until you look death in the face. This is USUALLY enough to scare you straight. My father has had two heart attacks so far and is still smoking. He makes attempts every now and then to quit, but so far it hasn't stuck. It's a shame, because I know when he does pass I'll wonder how long he might have had if he'd been able to quit.

That was one of the things that went through my head as I under went chemotherapy... "how do I get cancer 12 years after QUITTING smoking, and here my father has smoked for damn near 50 years and never got it"? Sometimes it just doesn't make any sense.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/03/09 01:38 AM

Glad you're still with us too!! 35 is still much too young.

But you did smoke, so the previous damage just caught up to you, not that there are not other things that could have brought it on according to all those studies they keep doing....
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/03/09 02:06 AM

A study of your avatar makes a strong case for you killing him.
Posted by: Wid

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/03/09 07:37 AM

Micah,

I never picked up a cig again after I got released from the hospital. My will to live was stronger than my desire for smoking.

I'm glad you're doing ok.
Posted by: Ajax

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/03/09 07:44 AM

 Originally Posted By: RickF
 Originally Posted By: wid

Thank God things have been going good since and I am real close to 51 now.


A wet behind the ears kid.

\:D

But, still old enough to pick on for being an old fart. (misery loves company)

Glad things worked out for you, Wid.
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/03/09 10:14 AM

+1 on Rick and Micah. I'm glad you guys pulled through.

I worked with a guy a few years ago, he would have been in his mid 40's, he smoked and drank(I'm quite sure he smoked more than Rothmans as well) pretty much on a daily basis. One day he doesn't show up for work and we find out he had a heart attack the night before. Soooo....we all felt bad, and made a collection for him, asking everyone if they'd like to chip in a few $$ for him, as he'd be off work for a while. We raised around $450 and we sent one of the guys over to his house to present him with it during his recovery. I wish I could tell everyone that he took that money and bought himself a treadmill or something, but he spent it all on alcohol and smokes during his time off...Nice, Eh!!? Since then, I know he's had at least one more heart attack.

On a more personal note, my father has been diagnosed with prostate cancer and has come as a shock to the family because it doesn't seem to run in our family, going back generations. He used to smoke until his mid 30's(now in early 70's) and whether there is a link between prostate cancer or not, I don't really know. It sounds like they've detected it fairly early so hopefully it's going to be fine. These are the times I wish my parents weren't living on the other side of the country, out in BC.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/03/09 11:50 AM

I don't think prostate cancer is usually linked to smoking. But of course some people will say that smoking can cause just about any cancer. Still, I think there are usually other variables involved in prostate cancer. And yes early detection is the key to overcoming cancer. Both my cancers were in stage 1 when I was diagnosed, so that worked in my favor big time.

My dad is 64 now and has been drinking and smoking since he was 15 or so. Besides the two heart attacks (the first was pretty serious, they put stints in and all that good stuff. The second was just a mild one, I don't recall them doing anything too drastic to him that time) he's never had any health problems. Which is pretty ironic really, his father passed away at age 50, and most men in the family are lucky to see 60. What's keeping him going is beyond me?
Posted by: Da_Gimp_Pimp

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/03/09 01:14 PM

I have a friend who had a heart attack a couple years ago while cutting his grandfather's lawn. He is extremely physically fit, no bad habits etc. and he was at the ripe old age of 28. Yep, you heard me right, 28.

It ended up that he had "wolf white parkinson's syndrome" and had to have surgery to correct his heart arrhythmia.

Shortly after that, my sister was experiencing heart arrhythmias and had to go and see a specialist. They diagnosed her with " wolf white parkinson's syndrome" and she had to have two heart surgeries because the first wasn't successful. Basically she has an extra nerve firing which causes her to get a tachycardia. Although the second surgery which was around 5 hours (she was pretty happy that she beat my surgery after my accident by ½ hour LOL) wasn't successful either but thankfully she hasn't suffered from any more arrhythmias.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/03/09 02:50 PM

Dang, sounds like a pretty rare disease to hit twice like that. I can't imagine being under the knife for 5 hours! Just what happened to you Wheelz? I realize there is probably a whole thread about it, just point me in the right direction.
Posted by: Da_Gimp_Pimp

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/03/09 03:28 PM

Actually Micah, wolf white parkinson's syndrome is very common and under diagnosed. Heart arrhythmias are quite common and most people just "tough them out" without saying anything. The procedure that my sister went through is very common but she was awake for the entire 5 hours because she has to give the surgeon feedback while they are "zapping" different nerves in her heart via a catheter.

I have wanted to post my entire story for you guys pertaining to my disability but haven't because of the risk of boring some and coming across as being self centered. But to give you an abbreviated version, I had a bicycle accident when I was 18 which rendered me a quadriplegic.
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/03/09 03:38 PM

And the whole thing was a devious plot to allow him to be bathed by Hot Models in Nurses Uniforms....
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/03/09 04:34 PM

 Originally Posted By: wheelz999
Actually Micah, wolf white parkinson's syndrome is very common and under diagnosed. Heart arrhythmias are quite common and most people just "tough them out" without saying anything. The procedure that my sister went through is very common but she was awake for the entire 5 hours because she has to give the surgeon feedback while they are "zapping" different nerves in her heart via a catheter.

I have wanted to post my entire story for you guys pertaining to my disability but haven't because of the risk of boring some and coming across as being self centered. But to give you an abbreviated version, I had a bicycle accident when I was 18 which rendered me a quadriplegic.



Boring? Self centered??? Nonsense!!! Everyone has a story to tell, & I for one would love to hear yours! Quadriplegic eh? Damn that's pretty rough, I thought u were just confined to a wheelchair, not a quadriplegic. I was in a bycicle accidentwhen I was 17 that probably should have paralyzed me, but I got lucky. But I'm with you, if I couldn't do anything but sit around at least you can still enjoy a good speaker set-up. How do you type though, with your mouth? Or do you have one of those programs that types for you while you dictate?
Posted by: richeydog

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/03/09 05:14 PM

 Originally Posted By: wheelz999
I have wanted to post my entire story for you guys pertaining to my disability but haven't because of the risk of boring some and coming across as being self centered. But to give you an abbreviated version, I had a bicycle accident when I was 18 which rendered me a quadriplegic.


Were you hit by a car??? I ride my bike on the road and always worry about something like that.
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/03/09 06:22 PM

I think Cam was trying to perform a "Triple Lutz" on his mountain bike to impress Teri.
Posted by: Wid

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/03/09 07:38 PM


I'd be interested, tell your story Cam.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/04/09 03:25 AM

I'll kick it off by telling my story Cam...

It was the spring of 1988, I was 17 years old. My buddy David and I were riding across town to see another friend of ours. This was the first ride of the year for both of us and I had just taken my ten speed down (it hung upside down from hooks in the garage) and in my haste to get going, disreguarded my fathers timely advice to tighten down the wing nuts on the wheels... BIG MISTAKE!!!

So we're heading across town riding down this hill when we start to come up on a curb. For reasons that are still unknown to me David suddenly slowed way down and let me pass him. This was pure luck as if not for this simple manuver, I would to this day not have any clue as to what happened next. Ok so I pass him up and start to plan my next move. I remember thinking I was going too fast to bunny hop off of the side walk onto the pavement, and then bunny hop back up onto the sidewalk again and continue on. So I was planning on hopping down, turning into the parking lot while slowing down, making a big loop around and hopping back up onto the next sidewalk. My memory of the incident ends about 50 feet from the curb, the rest is David's recollection of the incident.

So after passing David I continued down the sidewalk and made the bunny hop as I had planned... while in the air my front wheel came straight off of my bike. Upon landing on my front forks I was catapulted into the air where I did a complete forward 360 degree loop and then performed one of the most brutal face-plants ever witnessed right into the asphalt. The interesting part is that according to David, I never let go of the handle bars or ditched the bike what-so-ever. He said it was like I was glued to the bike, like we were all one piece. Anyhow when I landed on my face he said my head and neck made a 90 degree angle and he heard a spine chilling popping noise. At that point he said the rest of my body and my bike fell lifelessly to the ground as I laid there motionless. He said without a doubt he was 100% sure I'd snapped my neck and was dead at that point. He stopped his bike, and ran over to me yelling my name. When he got to me he said I looked up at him, untangled myself from my bike as I stood up, walked over to the curb and sat down all without saying a word or making a sound.

Ok so from 50 feet away from the curb I went blank until I suddenly opened my eyes and looked up at a blood-red sky. At that point I remember seeing David come into the picture like he was moving in slow motion... only I couldn't hear him, or anything else for that matter. The next thing I remember was sitting on the curb and seeing a woman pull up in a car looking at me in horror. I don't remember her saying anything, I just remember climbing into her car. At that point I looked down at my shirt, I was wearing my favorite 'Ocean Pacific' tee-shirt, and as I looked down at it I noticed a shocking amount of blood pouring down from my face onto it. For a split second I remember being alarmed that my favorite shirt was getting ruined. But a split second after that I specifically remember thinking, "fuck it, it's just a damn shirt"... which in itself was strange because I was always VERY particular about my clothes. At that point I looked out the window I was sitting next to and saw David standing there with his arm extended out towards me, holding my tooth in his hand. As I took my tooth out of his hand it suddenly occured to me that something bad must have just happened. Only I was under the assumption that I must have been in a car wreck!

The woman then turned around and drove me to the emergency room (this all happened in the back entrance to the hopital... ironic eh?), where they would spend the next 45 minutes wiring my tooth back into my mouth. The fact that the only injury I sustained was a knocked out tooth is to David a 'miracle'!!! According to him the violent and wickedly fast nature that the entire weight of my body and bicycle slamming my head into the asphalt the way it did should have resulted in catastrophic injuries. He was so sure I was dead when he saw me hit the ground that when he saw my eyes moving around he thought it was my nerves causing a reflex... like a chicken running around after his head's been cut off. Ha, that must have been freaky!!! Lol...

I guess it's a good thing my tooth took the brunt of the impact. I have strong teeth, the collision knocked my whole tooth right out root and all. It wasn't chipped or split or broken in any way. So it seems I'm lucky to be walking around according to David. Too bad my body's ability to fight off cancer isn't as strong as my teeth eh? ;\)
Posted by: Da_Gimp_Pimp

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/05/09 10:23 AM

You are extremely lucky that you didn't hurt yourself more. I've never even heard of anything remotely close to someone's wheel coming off their bike.

I wish I heard your story before my accident, I would have rode around everywhere with my teeth sticking out as far as they could \:\) .
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/05/09 12:00 PM

I'm glad all I had to ride on was country gravel roads. Living a mile from the nearest neighbour, the second I turned 16 I climbed in a car (actually I started under supervision at 12) and never looked back.

There is something to be said for wraping yourself in a ton of metal, even if you're not Iron Man.
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/05/09 09:37 PM

One of my "favorite" injuries was when I broke my wrist in 7th (or was it 8th?) grade. The teachers were on strike that day, so recess was more or less unsupervised. A bunch of kids were trying to dunk a basketball by jumping off of chairs. I took a running start, but the chair slid out from under me as I tried to launch off it. I stuck my left arm back to break my fall. *SNAP*

Fortunately, I was in shock almost instantly. It felt as if I was stoned because I couldn't get over how funny my wrist looked so offset from my forearm. I showed everyone I could until someone convinced me to go see the nurse. I ended up fracturing both my radius and ulna. I didn't feel any pain until I got to the hospital with my mom and the doctor had to wrestle my bones back into place before putting a cast on me. I don't think the local anesthetic helped at all, and he injected me pretty good.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/05/09 11:24 PM

 Originally Posted By: pmbuko
One of my "favorite" injuries....



Lol, that made me chuckle! \:D
Posted by: Murph

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 08:05 AM

I can't match these stories. I have been really lucky with my bones considering the abuse I used to put them through in contact sports and higher risk hobbies. That being said, I have a knee that unless I keep it exercised turns to mush. That was from my last kick at martial arts, both figuratively and literally,

Other than an embarrassing incident as a kid with breaking my pinkie finger in a pool on an air mattress, (Yes that is possible) I have been limited to a couple of hairline fractures. The most recent was a couple of years ago when my sea kayak pitch-poled over while riding an abnormally large wave compared to the rest I was surfing that day. I remember wondering why so much of my bow was starting to submarine under the water so I glanced back over my shoulder to see just how big a wave I caught and immediately thought "Man, I am so dead." I still don't remember hitting my arm but after a couple of days of 'weird' pain, (it hurt when the arm was at rest) x-rays showed the crack.

Perhaps a lifelong love of drinking milk really does pay off.
Posted by: Ajax

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 08:32 AM

 Originally Posted By: pmbuko
Fortunately, I was in shock almost instantly. It felt as if I was stoned because I couldn't get over how funny my wrist looked so offset from my forearm.

And, you would be able to make this comparison........exactly how?

You can forget about trying to tell us you didn't inhale.
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 10:27 AM

I've never broken any bones before, I've had stitches a number of times....twice on the scalp and twice on the forehead. Two times I had stitches from playing baseball, got hit with a thrown bat, and the other was a collision with another player. The others were from a car accident and the very first time I got stitches at the age of 8, I was showing off an a toboggan around Christmas time. I started standing up on the sled like a surfer and the last time I did it, I wiped out halfway down the hill and either hit the front of the sled, or something else and rolled to the bottom of the hill. I remember thinking "hmm, this hurts a little" and then as I sat there, blood started running down my face into the snow and I kind of freaked out and ran home(and freaked out the babysitter).

The car accident, I was rather fortunate. I was running a bit late for work and was heading down to Mississauga very early in the morning(5:30ish) and was flying down one of the sideroads that bypassed Brampton. The road was paved, but rough with cracks and patchwork here and there and a rutted shoulder. So I was doing the better part of 140km hr down this road when a couple of ducks walk out from the grass on the passenger side up ahead a short distance. I immediately pulled sharp to the left, in doing so I still hit one of the birds, but my left side tires caught a rut in the road and I couldn't steer out of it resulting in the back end coming around and sending me back across the road to the right side, through a ditch and knocking down four 8" farm fence posts(one got launched out into the middle of the field). So, what happened was, I had some of my tools in the trunk of my car(this was a new Buick), and they basically flattened the back seat out, and flew through the passenger compartment. Some smashed the front window and others smacked me in the back of the head. When the car came to a rest, I was pretty dazed, but got out and flagged a guy down coming the opposite direction. I got in his car, and no sooner had we driven 1/8th of a mile we noticed a Fire Truck crew had just extinguished a fire on the same road, so he dropped me off with them. One of the firetruck crew had heard the accident and had already radioed in for an ambulance which was on it's way. He told me to sit down on the side of the road and checked my eyes with a flashlight and checked me over as I had blood all over my upper body. He thought I had cut the back of my neck open, in fact the cut was in the back of my head, but I think my shirtline combined with the bleeding made it appear that my neck was cut. The ambulance got there in just a few minutes , whisked me off to emergency where they fixed me up. The $18,000 Buick was damaged beyond repair($13,500 damage). I remember being somewhat paranoid for a couple of months after that incident every time I drove a car, I noticed every leaf blowing across the road after that.

Other stories involve almost drowning at the age of 2, and being born at home with the cord wrapped around my neck. Those I don't remember!
Posted by: wilwom

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 11:48 AM

 Originally Posted By: Adrian
So I was doing the better part of 140km hr down this road when a couple of ducks walk out from the grass on the passenger side up ahead a short distance........

I remember being somewhat paranoid for a couple of months after that incident every time I drove a car, I noticed every leaf blowing across the road after that.


You can be paranoid if you want and watch for leaves; but driving "the better part of 140km hr down a road" might be the main problem. Just a thought.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 12:00 PM

Oddest. Thread. Ever.
Posted by: Da_Gimp_Pimp

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 12:29 PM

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Oddest. Thread. Ever.
\:D
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 12:30 PM

I dunno, it's missing someone coming in and telling us we don't know anything about injuries and that other people have better ones.
Posted by: Argon

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 12:48 PM

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Oddest. Thread. Ever.

This has taken "hijack" to a new level. I have to say that my injuries pale in comparison to most of these. There was the time when I was going to teach my dog a "lesson". He got away from me in the back yard - infuriating me because he would not mind. I made a dive for the leash and snapped the bone that holds by thumb to the rest of my hand. My wife almost laughed at me. Then there was the time that I was going to stick my Scout Pocketknife into a tree like Daniel Boone. It just folded up on impact and sliced my index finger wide open. In the same vein, I was in Scouts one day and one of the other guys brought in a 13 blade Swiss Knife. I had never seen one and thought it was so cool that I would open all 13 blades at once. The 5th blade that I opened was the main blade. The sixth blade that I opened caused me to slice my middle finger wide open on the 5th blade.

So no terrible injuries - just kinda comical.
Posted by: a401classic

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 01:06 PM

 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
I dunno, it's missing someone coming in and telling us we don't know anything about injuries and that other people have better ones.


Scars make better stories than tattoos, or so I've heard. Though, I've got a few scars that I wouldn't mind trading for a tat.

Scott
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 01:27 PM

How about a scar tattoo?
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 01:29 PM

Self inflicted scars don't count. They're like press-on tattoos.
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 01:31 PM

Well, it wasn't precisely self-inflicted. The tattoo artist did the damage. Partial credit?
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 01:36 PM

Let's say it was "willfull" so it lacks a "real story". Kinda hard to say...."I got run over by a combine on the farm and ended up with a scar that looks like birds and bamboo chutes".
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 01:49 PM

 Originally Posted By: CV
How about a scar tattoo?

Gotta say, I just don't get it.

Maybe that makes me old, but where will it end? Next generation: Limb removal to show you're cool?
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 01:52 PM

 Originally Posted By: Adrian
Let's say it was "willfull" so it lacks a "real story".


To be fair, some nasty "real" scars are the result of drinking, and enough people blame their tattoos on the same thing.
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 01:55 PM

 Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson

Maybe that makes me old, but where will it end?

Hate to break it to you Mark, but you're gonna keep getting older. ;\)
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 01:56 PM

 Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
Gotta say, I just don't get it.

Maybe that makes me old, but where will it end? Next generation: Limb removal to show you're cool?


It doesn't make you old. It seems totally unnecessary to me, too. Of course, I wouldn't even get a normal tattoo. And as far as people doing horrible things to their bodies, that's age-old.
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 02:18 PM

 Quote:
Next generation: Limb removal to show you're cool?

That's been done. I saw this a few years back. (not gruesome -- well, ok. There's one small surgery pic)
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 02:19 PM

 Originally Posted By: Adrian

Hate to break it to you Mark, but you're gonna keep getting older. ;\)

I hope so!
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 02:23 PM

Somewhat gruesome. Bluarggh.
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 02:30 PM

Clearly, they should have installed a working brain on themselves, that's beyond disgusting.
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 03:10 PM

 Originally Posted By: pmbuko
That's been done. I saw this a few years back. (not gruesome -- well, ok. There's one small surgery pic)


Ouch. I'm not going to be looking out for their genital work.
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 03:16 PM

 Quote:
Ouch. I'm not going to be looking out for their genital work.

Overheard: I'll trade you my arm for your balls.
Posted by: RickF

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/06/09 04:14 PM

RYAN: "I guess when we were about thirteen we started getting tattooed."


Posted by: Murph

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/07/09 01:32 PM

Only because if the flaming begins again, the leaves will catch on fire.
Posted by: alan

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/07/09 02:18 PM

Yeah, I don't get tattoos, either. It's a generational thing. My son has various tattoos, although not one shows if he wears long-sleeved shirts and pants. I cautioned him years ago that there might be some older dude like myself who might view visible tattoos as a demerit in a job interview.

Interesting how cultural fads change. In my youth, tattoos were considered very blue-collar lower class. No women that I remember ever had tattoos in the '50s and '60s.

Regards,
Alan
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/07/09 02:29 PM

No, but they had tutus.
Posted by: alan

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/07/09 02:32 PM

LOL! Might be a good limerick here. . .

Alan
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/07/09 02:33 PM

No offense taken in the 'hijacking' of this thread... actually, I think I may have been the hijacker?

I find injury stories fascinating. Not because I'm demented, but because when I look back on my life (I know, I know, I'm not old enough to say that yet right? Well I'm 38 now, and this is the oldest I've ever been, so...) I'm often amazed that I am still in one piece. Some of the hijinks I performed growing up (I was always a bit of a daredevil, which my parents were completely oblivious of) would scare the hell out of me if I knew either of my kids were repeating. Scenario's like me knocking my tooth out were very rare.

I'd say luck had more to do with the fact that I didn't end up a quadraplegic myself than anything. But I find it interesting to hear similar stories of these types of incidents. Call me crazy.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/07/09 02:43 PM

Micah, you're crazy.

<crosses off to-do list>
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/07/09 02:56 PM

 Originally Posted By: alan
Interesting how cultural fads change. In my youth, tattoos were considered very blue-collar lower class. No women that I remember ever had tattoos in the '50s and '60s.

By the 70s you could add bikers and far out artsy types to that list, but Tatoos were still pretty unusual.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/07/09 03:37 PM

There are around 50,000 people or so in the town I live in. We have 6 tattoo parlors. I would bet in the 60's there were none to be found in a smallish town like this, you would have had to drive to Indianapolis or Dayton to get one. Actually, back in 94 when I got my first tat I had to go to Dayton come to think of it.

Yes over the last two decades tattoo's have really exploded. But I don't think it will get MORE popular, I think this is a fad that will eventually burn out and sooner or later 16 year olds will be asking their dads, "why do you have that stupid looking sleeve"? Every generation feels the need to be different from the last. So if this generation is tattoo crazy, the next will choose not to be, just because!
Posted by: a401classic

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/09/09 08:19 PM

 Originally Posted By: CV
How about a scar tattoo?


Ow! Ow! Ow!

Did I say, Ow!?

Scott
Posted by: Murph

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/13/09 10:37 AM

 Originally Posted By: Zimm
Micah, I'm sure you know this, but I wanted to let the others know that it turns out the String Theory has been supplanted by the Membrane (or Brane or M-) Theory due to unresolved problems in the 11th dimension. Thus, they cured the singularity (big bang) problem via many parallel universes. Not positive, but I think this means there might be an opening for your theory on Simple Gravity! Just and FYI.


Here's another brainteaser bordering of gravity for you Micah.

The basis for Felber's "hypervelocity propulsion" drive is that the repulsive effect allows a relativistic particle to deliver a specific impulse that is greater than its specific momentum, thereby achieving speeds greater than the driving particle's speed.

Untested of course. They want to use the Large Haydron Collider so hopefully this will break us into faster than light travel so we can escape the black hole the collider is going to create. ;\)
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/13/09 04:11 PM

Unfortunately, the Large Hadron Collider may be sabotaging itself.

I found this idea pretty fascinating, if unlikely. But, what if...? \:\)
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/13/09 04:44 PM

Interesting. Thanks for posting, blinking Puddy Tat.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/13/09 06:45 PM

Man kind has indeed accomplished some amazing things, expecially in the last 100 years. Heck 100 years ago it was common belief that if you were to accidentally travel any faster than 50 miles per hour, you would surely disintegrate. Now we have fighter planes that travel many times the speed of sound. For my grandmothers parents, the notion of being able to travel the speed of sound was just as fantastic as the thought of being able to travel the speed of light is to us today. Looking back on how far we've come in so little time, I myself would not be shocked if we were to achieve light speed within the next 100 years... in fact, I would be shocked if we didn't.

Of course there is a long list of reasons why we will NEVER be able to travel at the speed of light. But 100 years ago the list of reasons why we could NEVER travel at the speed of sound was twice as long, and we did it anyway. But as many mind boggling things as the human race has figured out, I still think there are things we will never ever know no matter how advanced we become. The 'big bang' theory may always and forever remain just a theory, because... well, how do you PROVE absolutely exactly what happened so many billions of years ago? I myself buy into the 'cyclic universe' theory, for no other reason than I just can't imagine there ever being NOTHING, and then all of a sudden EVERYTHING!

Of course neither theory is perfect, and it's hard to wrap your head around either of them. On the one hand how can you possibly ever grasp the fact that there was ever NOTHING??? And on the other hand, we are all so used to there being a beginning and an ending to everything, how can you ever fully grasp the idea that there isn't a beginning to the universe? How could something have ALWAYS existed? I've tried many times to fully believe one or the other, and whenever I put a lot of thought into it I drive myself so mad that it starts to seem ridiculous that anything could ever exist in the first place. So to keep myself from ending up in the loony bin, I just stop thinking about it and accept the MOST believable theory for myself... which is the 'cyclic universe' theory. For me, it just makes more sense than the 'big bang' theory.

Gravity may never fully be understood either. Could just be one of those universal mysteries that we aren't meant to understand. So in the mean time, I'm just going to go with my 'magnatism' theory. It's easy, simple, not hard to understand. Sure it may have holes in it, hell for that matter it might just be completely absurd... but it works for me! ;\)
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/13/09 09:28 PM

 Originally Posted By: Micah
Heck 100 years ago it was common belief that if you were to accidentally travel any faster than 50 miles per hour, you would surely disintegrate.

I had that feeling when I took my VW bug on the 400 back in high school.
Posted by: CV

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/14/09 12:12 AM

 Originally Posted By: pmbuko
Unfortunately, the Large Hadron Collider may be sabotaging itself.


That's great. I always figured the scientists just wanted a cool place to hang out. Since there wasn't really anything to discover, they had to figure out a way to cover their tracks.
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/14/09 05:29 AM

 Quote:
I just can't imagine there ever being NOTHING

But there was never nothing. It started out with a singularity. A branch of string theory (theorists??) suggested that the universe is like a large elastic band that expands and contracts 'snapping' back and forth between states.

Think of the usiverse as a very large 'do-nothing'.
Posted by: Murph

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/14/09 08:05 AM

Interesting but a stretch (no pun on string theory intended). I downloaded the PDF and read some of it. I have a hard time with their analogies explaining how future events may effect the past. Is the current fact that a crowd is gathering for a concert influenced by the future event of the concert or was it predetermined by the previous event of the concert announcement and other developments leading up to it? Admittedly it is much easier to grasp time as a flow.

The conundrums of traveling in time in the reverse are apparent and easy to grasp (probably why time travel movies are fun for the general populace even), until you add in something like a multi-dimensional system where infinite choices result in infinite dimensions (anything "infinite" is hard to graps because we tend to think within the confines of dealing with confined storage,) but throw some equally hard to grasp theories into the mix and I'm willing to admit that practically any theory is possible until solidly refuted these days.

Also, their theories tying God's plan into the mix don't help thier credibility. Personally, I love when spirituality and science are combined together to form theories as they are almost always interesting to read if nothing else but in this case, it won't help them sell their case to number crunching physicists.

On the lighter side:
This is drawing me back to the new episode of Big Bang Theory I watched last night where two of the main characters (physicists) agree that they need to get serious and "Get to Work!!" They immediately start staring at whiteboard full of a formula and the camera starts switching back and forth quickly to different angles and with nothing more than different stances depicting the same 'serious facial expressions, all to beat of the Rocky theme "Eye of the Tiger".
Posted by: Zimm

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/14/09 02:30 PM

 Originally Posted By: Micah

I'm just going to go with my 'magnatism' theory. It's easy, simple, not hard to understand. Sure it may have holes in it, hell for that matter it might just be completely absurd... but it works for me.


Micah, this is all fun and stuff, but please don't plagiarize the great Albert Einstein. I'm pretty sure this is a quote from his first speach in NYC trying to explain his General Theory of Relativity. "Ah, sure, it has holes, but it works for me."


\:\)
Posted by: Zimm

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/14/09 02:38 PM

 Originally Posted By: fredk
 Quote:
I just can't imagine there ever being NOTHING

But there was never nothing. It started out with a singularity.


That was the funny ending of the NOVA show on the M-Theory. After decades trying to solve the singularity problem, they solve it with the "understanding" big bangs happen all the time and we are just living in the results of one of them. The funny part was that when they 'solved' the big bang problem it just opened up a whole new mystery about the world that existed on the other side of the bang and what else is out there from prior and later bangs.

It reminded me of Einstein's belief that God is not a tinkerer but a master watch builder who designs and implements the machine and only gets involved when he wants. Here, it was as if the watchmaker watched a child try to open the watch case for a 1,000 years and then laughed as they opened the chronograph and realized it would be another million years before they could grasped how all the gears and springs worked.

Even the smartest of we brilliant humans need to be humbled every now and then.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/14/09 02:54 PM

 Originally Posted By: fredk
A branch of string theory (theorists??) suggested that the universe is like a large elastic band that expands and contracts 'snapping' back and forth between states.




Indeed, this is the 'cyclic universe' theory I said I myself believe in, correct?
Posted by: Da_Gimp_Pimp

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/14/09 02:59 PM

The great Albert Einstein? I would never questioned his intellectual capacity, but I lost respect for him, as I would any other person, when he signed on the dotted line for Roosevelt to create the atomic bomb, thenceforth dropping it on Japan. When his life was nearing end, he said "it was the one great mistake I made".
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/14/09 03:10 PM

 Originally Posted By: Murph
Personally, I love when spirituality and science are combined together to form theories as they are almost always interesting to read if nothing else...





Quite some time ago I solved the whole 'evolution v/s creation' problem all on my own. It doesn't have to be a 'pick one' philosophy, they can actually coexist very nicely. How can they both be right? Well I'll tell you how... if we die and go to heaven and finally see God once and for all and he looks like this...



Thats right, if God is in fact an amoeba, then everyone was right. Adam was created in Gods image? Sure, here is a picture of Adam...



Looks pretty similar eh? And the whole, "Adam took one of his ribs and created Eve" part that sounds preposterous... well, that's how amoeba's reproduce right, from part of itself? So God creates Adam (an amoeba), Adam duplicates himself (Eve is born), and from there we evolved into what we are today. 'Creation' and 'Evolution' together, hand in hand.

It's simple, not hard to understand, sure it may have holes in it, but it works for me. ;\)
Posted by: Zimm

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/14/09 03:34 PM

 Originally Posted By: wheelz999
The great Albert Einstein? I would never questioned his intellectual capacity, but I lost respect for him, as I would any other person, when he signed on the dotted line for Roosevelt to create the atomic bomb, thenceforth dropping it on Japan. When his life was nearing end, he said "it was the one great mistake I made".


All true, but keep it in perspective. He was in Germany as the movement began and saw first hand the result on civil people when Hitler took over. He escaped but he, and others, rightly feared the Germans would have a bomb soon. He also was one of the few who could even imagine what this technology could do - in any hands.

He was a pacifist at heart, and that is the source of his guilt I imagine (and the deaths, of course).

But in terms of intellect, he must be classed as "great"...and very strange.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/25/09 12:11 AM

Ok I can't remember which thread I mentioned this in so I'm just going to throw it in this 'catch-all' thread...

I was talking about wanting to send the music from my computer to my Denon digitally to let the Denon convert it over to analog. Well today I was at Fry's and I picked up a USB Sound Blaster X-Fi. Cost $60 bucks. Simple plug and play action, plug it into the computer via USB 2.0 port and then into the Denon via an optical cord. There is a disc to download as well for advanced features, but it works right out of the box. Now I haven't had time to really tweak it (there seems to be some sort of 'popping' sound coming from somewhere every so often that I need to diagnose and get rid of), but so far I am ultra satisfied!!! I think it was JohnK or possibly FredK that mentioned that the line-level of the headphone jack might be the problem... this might just be the case, but either way this thing sounds freaking AWESOME!!!

If you'll remember I had mentioned that when playing a CD through the DVD player I could barely get the volume up past -10 without requiring some sort of tie-down to keep me from blowing away. On the other hand while the computer was playing I could easily get it to zero, and even a bit higher than that before it really started moving serious air. Well right now I'm at -12 and it's just about all I can take. I haven't done the direct comparison between it and the DVD player yet (I literally just hooked this up 20 minutes ago), but I'm guessing they are dead even with eachother now. And it also sounds all around better to me. I would love to say it's those Denon DAC's at work making it sound so great, but I know there are way too many factors that go into why I suddenly think it sounds better (including volume level) so I'm not even going to go down that road. All I'll say is that I'm extremely happy with it, and at $60 bucks I don't know why I didn't get one of these sooner.

I'm sure you can get a better shuttle if you shell out more cash, but I'm certainly satisfied at this point. So I'll take the savings and run!!! \:\)
Posted by: jakewash

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/25/09 02:48 PM

I use the USB Xfi for taking REW readings with my laptop, the prechecks(zeroing) on the sound card with REW show it is one very stable and flat DAC. It only dips at about 5hz then is flat through to and past 20khz, perfect for music.
Posted by: richeydog

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/25/09 03:03 PM

Off topic question for Micah. ;\)

Did you ever get a replacement sub?

Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/26/09 01:21 AM

 Originally Posted By: richeydog
Off topic question for Micah. ;\)

Did you ever get a replacement sub?


No not as yet. My quest for bass is in limbo for the time being. I want to do it right when I do dive into it, so I'm waiting until I have the time to research it like it deserves to be.

As I've said in many other posts, my M80's don't leave me desiring much during musical playback. And Shane's JBL is still over here whenever I plop a movie in. It leaves A LOT to be desired!!! But I really don't expect much out of it... & in that respect, it delivers reliably!
Posted by: richeydog

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/27/09 03:41 PM

Thanks for the update, Micah. Have you heard of the a guy named Mark Seaton? He designed the MFW-15 for AV123. He also builds and sells his own designs, through SeatonSoundInc His thread at AVS is quite long but has some good info praise on his SubMersive1 sub.

I've always wanted to hear one but never had the chance. Seems like a good product.
Posted by: richeydog

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/27/09 10:40 PM

 Originally Posted By: richeydog
Thanks for the update, Micah. Have you heard of the a guy named Mark Seaton? He designed the MFW-15 for AV123. He also builds and sells his own designs, through SeatonSoundInc His thread at AVS is quite long but has some good info praise on his SubMersive1 sub.

I've always wanted to hear one but never had the chance. Seems like a good product.


Translation: Micah, will you be my Guinea Pig? ;\)
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/27/09 11:51 PM

Bahahaha hahaha ha hahaha ha ha... It seems everyone and their brother has a certain subwoofer they have always wanted to see/hear/experience, and with my current sub-less situation at hand I'm getting several requests to 'see what this one sounds like'! ;\)

I'm not complaining mind you, I just find it interesting how many different theories/beliefs there are in the realm of subwoofers! Some believe its all about power handling. Others think excursion is the key. Still there are those that feel an 'infinite baffle' produces the greatest result while another section feels a sealed enclosure gives the greatest bang for the buck! Fascinating stuff indeed!!!

And with every new design theory I read, I become hopelessly curious as to how well it performs. I was a big-time bass nut growing up, I experimented with subwoofers a lot. From ported systems that took less power to produce more 'slam".... to sealed box's that sucked a lot of power, but played low & tight, I always searched for the ultimate (car) subwoofer set-up back in the day.

But heck man that was peanuts compared to the damage a good high-end home theater subwoofer will inflict on your wallet! With the price of these systems, you pretty much have to know what you want, and go for it! Experimentation will drain your finances like nobody's business. And as much as I want to try out ALL the possibilities that lie before me, that just isn't practical on my budget.

But there's just something about bass that gets my adrenaline pumping! I don't want to imply that bass is anymore important than the other registers, but for me its the most exciting element when it's done right. Watching 'Top Gun' for instance, hearing the jet fighters scream aound over your head, scorching the afterburners and wizzing back and forth sounds amazing on my surround sound speakers. But when that jet crashes, and the room suddenly shakes and rattles violently with thundering, heart stopping bass... when the plaster starts flaking, the floor joists dance and the neighbors call S.W.A.T. to investigate the disturbance next door, well that's what its really all about for me!

If I could test and research bass designs for a living, life would be grand indeed! And I already consider myself a lucky man for being able to take pictures for a living. Accoustic research would be my all time dream. Above all other positions, except perhaps the college campuss porn star tallent scout! \:o
Posted by: richeydog

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/28/09 12:20 AM

I didn't know you were a photographer. I just checked out your website and like what I see. Does your fiancee take photos as well?

I used to dabble around with a camera, shooting landscape/outdoor shots in Yosemite and other beautiful places. I need to sell my old Mamiya RZ and go digital...and start shooting again. I miss it.
Posted by: Murph

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/28/09 11:08 AM

Just be thankful no one is asking you to try out Canadian sub-marines.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/28/09 12:37 PM

 Originally Posted By: richeydog
I didn't know you were a photographer. I just checked out your website and like what I see. Does your fiancee take photos as well?


Yes actually it's her studio, we work together now. I met her 2 years ago and she'd owed this studio for 12 years at that time. Eventually she talked me into leaving my other job to work with her full time... it didn't take a whole lot of convincing! ;\)


 Originally Posted By: richeydog
I used to dabble around with a camera, shooting landscape/outdoor shots in Yosemite and other beautiful places. I need to sell my old Mamiya RZ and go digital...and start shooting again. I miss it.



That's funny, I think that might be the same camera she used to shoot in her film days. She had a really hard time switching over to digital, she loved film. But in order to make it in the bizz you have to go with the flow, and digital was more than just a 'flow', it was the new industry standard. There are a lot of headaches that come with digital, but also a whole frontier of advantages over film. Film is dead as a profession, but it lives on in hobbies. She wishes she still had her Mamiya to shoot personal stuff with, perhaps you should hold on to yours as well.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/28/09 12:41 PM

 Originally Posted By: Murph
Just be thankful no one is asking you to try out Canadian sub-marines.


Are you serious, is that what you do for a living? If so what is Canada wasting their time and money devoloping submarines for, don't the American's pretty much have that market cornered? Are the Canadians worried about some unknown threat from Greenland? Or are they just scouring the ocean floor, trying to find a good spot to build an underwater, indoor hockey arena???
Posted by: jakewash

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/28/09 01:53 PM

He was making a joke, IIRC, our Armed Forces(Ha!) bought decomissioned subs from the British Navy and on the cruise home they caught fire, broke down etc.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/28/09 02:20 PM

Ahhh... and I suppose they'd passed on the extended warrantee right? Extended meaning once they exit British waters, they are no longer covered!

I've often wondered why Canada even wastes their time with a military? If they think there's any chance in hell that the US would alow ANY ONE to invade Canada and park their military directly on their 12 o'clock, then they seriously under estimate the US appreciation of having a 'friendly neighbor' to the north.

Invading Canada would be about as smart as attacking New York. But besides that... who hates Canada???
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/28/09 02:27 PM

The kids from South Park.




FWIW, Canada needs to step up it's sovereignty of the North. Alot of nations are trying to claim parts of it now that it's known to be rich in oil and minerals...that has a lot to do with the future of our Navy, I believe.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/28/09 02:37 PM

 Originally Posted By: Adrian

FWIW, Canada needs to step up it's sovereignty of the North. Alot of nations are trying to claim parts of it now that it's known to be rich in oil and minerals...that has a lot to do with the future of our Navy, I believe.
That is the main reason for the upgrading (can you call it that?). When the Arctic was frozen over, the rest of the world was content to allow Canada to do most of the patrolling and rescues etc. Now it is a different game altogether.
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/28/09 02:59 PM

I should probably buy that Hudson Bay waterfront property now before it stops freezing over in a few years.
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/28/09 03:04 PM

Well, the polar bears are looking for other food sources, so....
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/28/09 10:28 PM

Wow, I'm embarrassed!

This whole time I thought I'd named this thread 'The world's newest Axiomite IS born...'. But while looking through them I just now realized I accidentally typed 'it' instead of 'is'... was this always apparent to everyone else here? Or have you all been reading the 'is' into it the whole time like I was?

I feel so foolish now!
Posted by: jakewash

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/28/09 11:32 PM

Noticed it, then just started reading as 'is'
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/28/09 11:56 PM

Well Jake, you won the coveted post #420... now puff puff give!




\:D
Posted by: JohnK

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/29/09 12:09 AM

Micah, for the past five months I've been reading this thread to see when you'd notice that.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/29/09 12:34 AM

 Originally Posted By: Micah
Well Jake, you won the coveted post #420... now puff puff give!




\:D
What did I win, What did I win?????
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/29/09 01:24 AM

 Originally Posted By: JohnK
Micah, for the past five months I've been reading this thread to see when you'd notice that.



Then I guess tonight you will sleep very well indeed! ;\)
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/29/09 01:27 AM

(I am envisioning JohnK as a little boy taping 'kick me' signs on his friends backs and snickering)




\:D
Posted by: Murph

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/29/09 07:41 AM

I wouldn't feel too bad considering 95% of this thread has turned out to be totally derailed from the anything to do with the subject line. \:\)
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: The world's newest Axiomite it born... - 10/29/09 12:40 PM

95% and increasing.

It's the law of diminishing Axiom forum topic relevancy.
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: The wurld's knewest Oxiomite is borne... - 10/29/09 03:01 PM

You can edit the thread topic any time you respond...
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The wurld's nudest Oxiomite is borne... - 10/29/09 03:03 PM

Really?
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: The world's nudest Axiomite is burned... - 10/29/09 04:46 PM

So I've heard.
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's nudest Axiomite is sunburned... - 10/29/09 04:48 PM

I can't stop!
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's nudests Burn on Axiomite - 10/29/09 06:45 PM

Micah. Have you checked out the thread on the DIY Danly horn over at AVS? It looks like a real killer for output if you have the space for one.

Actually, all the serious designers like Mark Seaton will tell you that there is no 'best' sub, only design tradeoffs.
Posted by: Adrian

Re: The world's Buddhists Turn on Their Axioms - 10/29/09 09:20 PM

I wouldn't mind trying a DIY sub sometime.
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's nudists at times blow horns... - 10/29/09 10:33 PM

Wow I never knew you could change the heading either. I guess that's what I get for always clicking 'quick reply'!
Posted by: Micah

Re: The world's nudests Burn on Axiomite - 10/29/09 10:37 PM

 Originally Posted By: fredk
Actually, all the serious designers like Mark Seaton will tell you that there is no 'best' sub, only design tradeoffs.



Pretty much keeps with the same philosophy as speaker design eh? Show me the world's perfect speaker and I'll show you something it traded to gain something else.

Its all purely subjective in the worl of high-end audio.
Posted by: Wid

How long ya been here? - 10/29/09 10:38 PM


Posted by: Micah

Re: The word 'nucleous' is born from atom.... - 10/29/09 10:44 PM

This is getting out of hand!
Posted by: richeydog

Re: The world's newest hermaphrodite is in porn - 10/29/09 10:55 PM

That was easy.
Posted by: fredk

Re: The world's newest hermaphrodite is in porn - 10/29/09 11:03 PM

\:D

I wonder how many people using search engines are going to end up here expecting something completely different?
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: The world's best speakers love you long time - 10/29/09 11:14 PM

Google know all.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: The whirled nudist spins 'round. - 10/29/09 11:42 PM

Many, many people. I hope.
Posted by: Micah

Re: Gramma Pearl's cutest grandchild eats corn... - 10/30/09 12:45 AM

They may be a tad disappointed when they arrive here, but we may be able to sell them some speakers if we convince them listening to your favorite porn movie with a set of M80's makes the whole thing seem more lifelike!

But then again I'd estimate a good 85% of porn is watched on 'mute' for reasons I need not explain. ;\)
Posted by: Murph

Re: The world's newest hermaphrodite is in porn - 10/30/09 08:48 AM

THIS IS HILARIOUS!!!

Posted by: Adrian

Re: He hurls hermaphrodite into cornfield - 10/30/09 09:22 AM




Okay, I'll play it safe.....
Posted by: Murph

Re: He hurls Jewish hermaphrodite into cornfield - 10/30/09 09:38 AM

For the record, I didn't create that subject line.
Posted by: Adrian

Re: He hurls hermaphrodite into cornfield - 10/30/09 10:26 AM

Changed....
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: We girls hum every night in the cornfield - 10/30/09 10:51 AM

Where is this cornfield you speak of?
Posted by: fredk

Re: We girls harumpf every night in the cornfield - 10/30/09 08:27 PM

I saw that movie! I had no idea what was in the cornfield. Myabe I should have taken it off mute...
Posted by: chesseroo

Re: We girls hump every night in the cornfield - 10/30/09 09:01 PM

I honestly have to say i've not followed this thread at all until the subject changes started up.

It really got quite intriguing.

"So what happened with Sue Ellen and the Pakistani?"
Quote from Doc Hollywood, Michael J. Fox.
Posted by: Adrian

Re: Three girls jump into fight in the cornfield - 10/30/09 09:26 PM

Cain't they just....get along?
Posted by: Da_Gimp_Pimp

Re: We girls harumpf every night in the cornfield - 10/31/09 07:45 AM

 Originally Posted By: fredk
I saw that movie! I had no idea what was in the cornfield. Myabe I should have taken it off mute...
\:D
Posted by: Joebob

Bertha sands my forehead lovingly - 10/31/09 11:05 AM

I'm just not right.
Posted by: Adrian

Re:$10million study: Bigfoot likely aetheist - 10/31/09 03:45 PM

They're jumping to conclusions, more funding is needed.
Posted by: Micah

Re:$10million study: Bigfoot likely aetheist - 02/14/10 01:15 PM

Wow..... four long months ago I wrote the last chapter in the saga that was my trials and tribulations with a certain EP800. I did so sadly, because I had become very fond of the way Axiom's flagship subwoofer followed musical notes so masterfully. Indeed it was with a heavy heart that I decided to pull the plug on that operation, but I did so out of respect to Axiom. I honestly thought I'd taken it as far as it could go, and so I decided to walk away before anyone was left with any hard feelings from the whole ordeal. I chronicled the entire saga in this thread, and I was as thorough as I knew how to be. But there was one chapter left out of the story, the chapter I'm writing now.

You see a few days after my decision was made to return the EP800, I recieved an email from Axiom. In this email I was offered a chance to hold on to the 800 for just a short while longer and test out the beta amp that Axiom had in the works. The claim wasn't that they thought the new amp would cure what ailed my unit, it was more or less a favor they were asking. You see I had done something even the greatest minds at Axiom had been unable to accomplish during the life of the EP800 amp... I'd managed to detroy it. And since even the most thorough testing a labratory can come up with can't account for every single possible scenario that an amplifier will contend with once it is shipped out to a customer, field testing is an invaluable part of the experimental stage in the creation of a new product. So the offer on the table was to see if the new amp would hold up any better than the old one did in my hands. And after the beta stage was complete, I would still have the opportunity to return the subwoofer as planned for a full refund.

Well, as many of you know I had several different projects I was kicking around trying to determine which would give me the most performance. But I wasn't going to have time to pursue any of those projects for some time, so holding on to the sub a while longer wasn't going to slow me down any. Besides, I felt it was the least I could do after Axiom had worked with me for so long, doing everything I'd asked of them trying to diagnose the strange clanking sounds coming out of my EP800 while watching movies. So without hesitation I emailed them back and told them it would be an honor to field test their beta amp for them. Besides, I would be remiss if I didn't admit that I was crossing my fingers in hopes that somehow the new amp DID solve the issues I was having!

However, even though my plans had changed, I decided not to post about it until it was all said and done. I did this for two reasons... first of all I am a very big fan of Axiom. And not just the equipment they manufacture, but also of the fine people who make up the Axiom team. And because I think so highly of them, I didn't want to drag their name through the mud any more than was necessary. And secondly, I'm honest to a fault. I tell it like it is whether it's good news or bad. But understand that by the time I was ready to return the sub, I was convinced that what ever it was causing all of the problems, Axiom wasn't to blame for it. I honestly believed there were other forces at play. So the last thing I wanted to do was write about this new amp coming out if it was going to fizzle out as soon as I got my tainted mits on it and have some potential axiom customers read that and come away with the conclusion that Axiom doesn't know how to build a subwoofer. If I believed in my heart that Axiom truely didn't know how to build a subwoofer then I would have no problems saying so, dispite my adoration for the company. But that wasn't what I felt, so I was of the opinion that this experiment was better left between me and Axiom. I'm sure you all understand the logic behind this.

Ok so skip forward to the day the beta amp arrived at my doorstep. I installed it in the EP800 and played some music, I didn't want to jump right into movies just yet. From the very first song I realized this amp was a whole new animal! Yes I realized that it had been quite some time since I'd had a working EP800 to listen to. Still I had a pretty firm grasp on the way it played musical notes, and this amp was playing the bass notes tighter and more precisely than the old one ever dreamed of! I was excited, perhaps I'd finally found the missing piece of the puzzle? I started playing some movies, but I didn't jump right into the cave scene... to tell you the truth I was a bit nervous. So I started off watching 'Dark Knight', smooth, thunderous bass. Then I watched 'Finding Nemo', best that movie has ever sounded! After that was over I put in a movie that I've never seen before, but that I've wanted to see once I had my bass system sorted out ever since I started posting on this forum because I've heard so many people rave about it... 'U571'!

Now before I go any further with my story let me just pause a minute to say that if anyone out there has not played this movie on their HT system that has a good subwoofer hooked up to it, you don't know what you're missing!!! That was by far the most intense bass experience I've ever sat through ANYWHERE!!! And the EP800 fitted with the new amp played it flawlessley. Oh what a magnificent event that was, I'll be watching that again, you can count on that! Ok so I felt the EP800 was ready, to I grabbed 'Ironman' and fast forwarded right to the cave scene. Ok this didn't quite go down without a hitch as they say, I did hear a very faint popping noise probably 3 times through that entire scene. But keep in mind that when comparing the two amps, this was a HUGE improvement!!! With the original amp at the helm the EP800 went 'snap, crackle & pop' throughout that entire scene. So although I was sad to hear 3 pops, it was definatelly one hell of an improvement!

But it got me wondering, what might this thing do if I pulled it out from under the tv and moved it around the room as has been suggested by many in here in the past. So for the first time ever I pulled the beast out from its hidding place and tried it out in a few different locations. OH MY GOD!!!! When I placed it along the middle of the back wall, directly behind my seating area, it sounded like it DOUBLED it's original output from where it sat inside the HT closet. It was crazy loud, in fact I would estimate that placed inside that HT closed under my tv sucked somewhere between 50 and 75% of its performance right out of it! In fact the difference was so great I went from having the volume sitting just below full blast to around the 6 o'clock position. And I changed the setting in the reciever from +8 to +3. Then I played the cave scene again... flawless

Not a snap, not a crackle, and no pops to speak of what so ever. Do you think I found my problem? Well lets just say the combination of the two was the cure. Just replacing the amp took 95% of the problem away, but relocating it was certainly looooooong overdue! And so I learned a very valuable leson indeed, from now on I will NEVER ignor advice given to me on this forum ever again! You guys know what you're talking about, please forgive my ignorance. Now I'm a believer, sub placement is 90% of the equation. Any of you that are having 'issues' with your sub and you haven't moved it around to find the best possible placement to get the best out of your sub, take Nike's word for it and just do it! Since I had built that location for the EP800 right into my HT closet before I even ordered the speakers, I was too stuborn to pull it out and move it around to see if it would sound any better somewhere else. I figured I would just make due with it where it was. But now it's clear to me that where it was completely killed almost half of its output, causing me to drive it into clipping as I tried to get out of it the performance I was expecting to get out of it... BIG mistake, HUGE! But a mistake I won't make ever again. I will follow the advice of this board like the word of God from this day forward!

But the greatest news of all is that I am again the happy OWNER of an EP800!!! And I can't express how much more performance I'm getting out of it now, and although most of it is from having gotten the placement right, I must say this new amp Axiom has produced is definately head and shoulders above the old one in every aspect of its performance level. I definately put my stamp of approval on it. Oh but those of you that were interested in seeing how the in-ceiling bass project I talked about installing would perform don't worry, I am still seriously considering going ahead with that project as well anyway. After all, can you ever have too much of a good thing???

I suppose I'll find out.
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re:$10million study: Bigfoot likely aetheist - 02/14/10 01:28 PM

Wow, Micah! Congratulations on finding success at last!

What a tribulation to go through, but kudos to both you and Axiom for keeping on trying to find a solution and not giving up.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re:$10million study: Bigfoot likely aetheist - 02/14/10 02:12 PM

Oh, very glad to hear it! I was wondering what might be going on with you and the EP800 since they brought out the new amp. Glad to hear it's working. I'll have to get U-571 again now that I've got the EP350 (and a fresh amp, at that!)
Posted by: Micah

Re:$10million study: Bigfoot likely aetheist - 02/14/10 02:19 PM

 Originally Posted By: St_PatGuy
Wow, Micah! Congratulations on finding success at last!


Further proof that the old saying, "good things come to those who wait" is spot on!

And while. I take three quarters of the responsability for putting my sub in a subprime location and then expecting optimum performance out of it, I have to say that if the problems I was having with my sub in any way prompted Axiom to improve on the design of their amp, then I do think it was all worth it!!! Because the new amp definately is an improvement... You're welcome ;\)
Posted by: CV

Re:$10million study: Bigfoot likely aetheist - 02/14/10 03:33 PM

That's great news, Micah. I would certainly agree that the differences aren't subtle. There's a lot more impact. I'm going to play around with mine some more today, since I'm sure I can get even more out of it. I'm curious what will happen when I re-run the AS-EQ1's setup, though. Will I lose the impact, or will it really maintain those improvements? Since it already showed a flat frequency response through the EP800's range with the old amp, can there really be that much difference in performance with a similar flat graph for the new amp? We'll see how that goes.
Posted by: medic8r

Re: Toyota recalls all cars; replaces Bose w Axiom - 02/14/10 04:20 PM

For our Google friends, I have it on good authority that Barack Obama, Taylor Swift, the Jonas Brothers and Jenna Jameson all love their Axioms. Miley Cyrus is a fan of the EP800.

In the Axiom cafeteria, they serve Coca Cola products and Pepsi products. The nearest McDonalds is 8 Mile s away.
Posted by: Micah

Re: Toyota recalls all cars; replaces Bose w Axiom - 02/14/10 04:48 PM

Didn't you forget to mention that Michael Jackson died while making love to an EP350 whom he'd mistaken for a 12 year old boy in the midst of an oxycodone binge at a Britney Spears concert?
Posted by: fredk

Re: Toyota recalls all cars; replaces Bose w Axiom - 02/14/10 05:59 PM

Holey crap! Three long paragraphs just to get to the beginning of your story. You're not related to that War an Peace fella are you? ;\)

Its great to hear your issue with the EP800 has been resolved to your satisfaction and even better to hear that Axiom took advantage of a lemon to make some very fine lemonaid!
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re:$10million study: Bigfoot likely aetheist - 02/14/10 06:25 PM

 Originally Posted By: Micah
I will follow the advice of this board like the word of God from this day forward!

You will send weekly checks to MarkSJohnson.......You will send weekly checks to MarkSJohnson.......You will send weekly checks to MarkSJohnson.......

Glad to hear the update, Micah!
Posted by: onn

Re:$10million study: Bigfoot likely aetheist - 02/14/10 07:21 PM

Great news Micah
I'm glad you hung in there and let Axiom take care of you. Excellent service bar none \:\)
Posted by: Adrian

Re:$10million study: Bigfoot likely aetheist - 02/14/10 10:51 PM

I was wondering what became of the "Cursed Micah Sub!" Sounds like things have been resolved, good news.
Posted by: JohnK

Re:$10million study: Bigfoot likely aetheist - 02/14/10 11:42 PM

Micah, I'm very upset at your mathematical heresies. In your penultimate paragraph you give 95% of the credit to the new amp and then say that positioning was 90%, so you're already 85% over what you're allowed!

Okay, seriously we're very happy for you that the miserable ordeal that you handled with such good humor has ended on a positive note. Enjoy.
Posted by: Luke Smith

Re:$10million study: Bigfoot likely aetheist - 02/15/10 02:21 AM

It's fox news math!
Posted by: CV

Re:$10million study: Bigfoot likely aetheist - 02/15/10 03:11 AM

Wasn't Fox Newsmath Negative Orange's manager before they wrote a song about him that made him quit?
Posted by: Micah

Re:$10million study: Bigfoot likely aetheist - 02/15/10 04:37 AM

 Originally Posted By: JohnK
Micah, I'm very upset at your mathematical heresies. In your penultimate paragraph you give 95% of the credit to the new amp and then say that positioning was 90%, so you're already 85% over what you're allowed!

Okay, seriously we're very happy for you that the miserable ordeal that you handled with such good humor has ended on a positive note. Enjoy.



I'm innocent of these false accusations I tell you, INNOCENT!!!


Lol, if memory serves (I've already proof read that damn thing so many times, I'm too lazy to go read throught it yet again) the new amp took out 95% of the distortion I was hearing at the settings I had it on (+8 in the reciever with the volume at almost 100% full blast). But the new position of the sub (behind my seating area, instead of stuffed inside a closet with only the front face poking through) gave me 90% better overall performance.

So to summize the situation, I just got a 185% improvement in sub bass performance in my living room by just switching two things around... not bad eh?





... hey wait a minute, wasn't it my laziness that got me into this mess in the first place??? I suppose I'll never learn! \:o
Posted by: Micah

Re: Toyota recalls all cars; replaces Bose w Axiom - 02/15/10 04:49 AM

 Originally Posted By: fredk
Holey crap! Three long paragraphs just to get to the beginning of your story. You're not related to that War an Peace fella are you? ;\)

Its great to hear your issue with the EP800 has been resolved to your satisfaction and even better to hear that Axiom took advantage of a lemon to make some very fine lemonaid!




Did you skip over the first sentence? This was a summary of the past 4 months worth of activity involving my EP800... I don't think you realize how much I can write in four months! That post was basically the cliff notes version of my original draft, before that it made 'War and Peace' look like the telephone book from Bowden, Alberta (already covered in this thread somewhere I believe). Trust me, I spared you all a few weeks worth of reading in the editing room.

However, those of you who would like to read the 'Director's Cut' edition of my story, I'm working with Axiom now to get more web space available so I can publish it!


\:D
Posted by: medic8r

Re:$10million study: Bigfoot likely aetheist - 02/15/10 06:59 AM

 Originally Posted By: CV
Wasn't Fox Newsmath Negative Orange's manager before they wrote a song about him that made him quit?

I don't know, but I'll bet Randy has the autographed Sarah Palin autobiography to prove it!
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re:$10million study: Bigfoot likely aetheist - 02/15/10 08:07 AM

Very good, JP! \:D
Posted by: medic8r

Re: Beaver Tails vs Funnel Cake. Film at 11. - 02/15/10 08:59 AM

Thanks! I'm here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitress, and try the prime rib.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Beaver Tails vs Funnel Cake. Film at 11. - 02/15/10 10:45 AM

 Originally Posted By: medic8r
Thanks! I'm here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitress, and try the prime rib.


Well, it's got to be better than the pan fried beaver tails.
Posted by: Micah

Re:$10million study: Bigfoot likely aetheist - 02/15/10 03:20 PM

 Originally Posted By: CV
That's great news, Micah. I would certainly agree that the differences aren't subtle. There's a lot more impact. I'm going to play around with mine some more today, since I'm sure I can get even more out of it. I'm curious what will happen when I re-run the AS-EQ1's setup, though. Will I lose the impact, or will it really maintain those improvements? Since it already showed a flat frequency response through the EP800's range with the old amp, can there really be that much difference in performance with a similar flat graph for the new amp? We'll see how that goes.


So what was the final verdict on the Sub-EQ program? Did it maintain any advantages after you re-ran it? I saw your other thread where you put up the graphs, it looked as though there was a sizable improvement in the bottom end, and that improvement extended out to around 45 hz before the old amp caught up, and then extended out a bit further than the new amp... so more bottom end, with a bit less top end, a typical trade-off in amp design usually. But a fairly good trade off if you own a pair of M80's or M60's that can cover the 45+ hz and up end of the spectrum eh?

However once you applied the EQ it looked as though any advantages were nullified... what was the 'seat of the pants' impression? Perhaps it would be easier to tell if you put one of the old amps back into one of the 800's, and listened to them one at a time using the same material with the EQ applied to see if you can tell much of a difference then.

Just a thought.
Posted by: CV

Re:$10million study: Bigfoot likely aetheist - 02/16/10 01:14 AM

A lot of the difference did seem to go away after the EQ. That's my "seat of the pants" impression. True, my M80s can be crossed over lower, but the other channels are crossed over higher than where the EP800 is dropping off, so I think it's something that will have to be addressed if it's not a fluke.

I think I really need a local friend who can come over and do this stuff with me. It gets to be a bit of a pain doing it by myself.
Posted by: Micah

Re:$10million study: Bigfoot likely aetheist - 02/16/10 10:04 AM

 Originally Posted By: CV
A lot of the difference did seem to go away after the EQ. That's my "seat of the pants" impression. True, my M80s can be crossed over lower, but the other channels are crossed over higher than where the EP800 is dropping off, so I think it's something that will have to be addressed if it's not a fluke.

I think I really need a local friend who can come over and do this stuff with me. It gets to be a bit of a pain doing it by myself.



You don't happen to own your own private jet, do you?
Posted by: jakewash

Re:$10million study: Bigfoot likely aetheist - 02/16/10 12:10 PM

 Originally Posted By: CV
I think I really need a local friend who can come over and do this stuff with me. It gets to be a bit of a pain doing it by myself.
I could be there in about 12 hrs....... if I didn't have to work tonight or more set up in the house and future landscaping and ......... I guess you are on your own for awhile, sorry.