Guys,

My room is going to be 35x16x9 I am looking at a few options around the $1000 mark. What would you suggest?

2x AV123 MFW-15 $999.99
2x Hsu VTF-3 MK# $1258.00
1x Epik Phonenix $1099.00
1x eD A7-350 $1020.00
1x Axiom EP500 1168.50

Thanks,

Jason

Well, this is the Axiom board, but the HSU's are just a much better value (sorry guys) at this point in time. I would also consider 2 x SVS PB12-NSD's. I have recently come to find out the hard way that two subs are much better than one. That is a HUGE room, you'll be much better off with two IMO, let alone the better performance.

There are lots of subs cheaper than the EP500, but they are not apples to apples in performance.

how is it not an apples to apples comparison?

The only ones I am familiar with are the SVS, HSU and Axiom. They all look like they can do 17 - 18 hz without an issue at +/- 3 dB. They're all 430 - 500 watts. I am not sure about the HSU, but both the Axiom and SVS have digital processing. The Axiom does look as if it can play louder than the other two at a given frequency, but it's double the price. Double up on the other two, and you have 3 - 5 db more ability, which evens the playing field.

Of course, two gigantic boxes in the room may not be what everyone wants :).

By the size of your room, I would recommend dual subs as the best way to have a more even response in your room. Judging by the reports/reviews of the MFW-15, this would be the way to go, especially if the new amps do in fact repair the problems they were having with them or go for the tried and true Hsu in dual form.

I haven't heard any of these subs before, so I might as well throw in another one I've not heard....Outlaw Audio, seem to be reasonably priced as well.

I know of a couple of folks who has heard both in their rooms that preferred the Hsu to the Axiom. I would go with two subs from Hsu or Av123 over one from the other manufacturers.

I wouldn't buy the MFW under any circumstances.

1. They have ongoing quality issues, some amp related, but also veneer and loose/missing screw issues on the drivers.

2. Screws into MDF is not a good way to secure a driver

3. They have ongoing financial issues and are unable to meet all their previous commitments to customers.

Well I guess I would then have to go with the pair of Hsu subs.

There's a similar thread over on AVS right now, general consensus is for one sub, the Epik Sentinal is the way to go for the dollar, although the graph doesn't look to be all that, real world performance could differ obviously. The PB12+ is pretty sweet too. I still think you'd be way better off with duals in a room so big.

I have spoken with SVS and HSU customer service/tech support pretty extensively in the last week, and they are both exceptional.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1199217

A continuation of this thread regarding 2 subs seems to make sense. How do you know when you need two subs? I am going to install 1 EP350 in an 18x18x8 room. will that be sufficient?

I would have to think 2 subs in a square room would be a good idea no matter the size. From all I have read a square room can really wreak havoc on bass.

Just ask Mark

2 subs or 3 or 4 give better, smoother bass response than a single. So as long as you can afford the floor space and have the dollars to buy multiple subs, this is the way to go no matter what the room size. Obviously in smaller rooms you can use smaller subs but you still need one really good sub(somewhat large - usually) to hit those really low notes.

Forgot to add to look for Paradigm DSP3200 or 3400 to add to your quest for dual subs, they are priced right and sound great, IMO, very similar to Axiom.

Which is why I have a EP600 and twin 350's.

Didn't you take one of your 350s into the other room or was that just temporary till you buy another one?

Guys, I have learned an awful lot about subwoofers the last 9 months (but am still a far cry from being an "expert)." One of the things I've learned is that the power of the amplifier, by itself, is no indicator of how good a given sub sounds or how loud it will play.

I know that I, as a layman, would tend to judge a sub by how low it would go and how much power it had. The common misconception is that a sub with a 1000W amp is better than a a sub with a 500W amp, right? 'Tain't necessarily so. What matters is how the driver (efficiency/throw,etc.), cabinet design (sealed or ported/internal volume), and amplifier (power/EQ curve/etc.) are integrated.

This past weekend we were testing a sub and, much to our surprise and disappointment, it was bottoming when it shouldn't have been bottoming. We discovered that the new and untested amplifier (we were hurrying to get things up and running and were running late) was delivering nearly twice its rated power. Because of this, the poor thing was trying to deliver unbelievable SPL at under 10 Hz which resulted in bottoming.

It has turned out to be a good thing, because it will allow us to reduce the cabinet size from 24"x20"x20" (HxWxD), to a less intrusive 20"x20"x20" which will prevent the bottoming while reducing output by only about 1 dB above 10Hz.

Point is, you can't judge a sub's performance by any one spec. It's how all things, driver/cabinet/amplifier, work together.

I am still a contented EP-500 owner. Just yesterday, I was playing some music with strong (and low) bass (Stanley Clarke, Billy Cobham, etc.) and I was sitting there just delighted with the tight, clean, smooth bass the EP500 was delivering. IMHO, when integrating all its parts, Axiom got it right with the EP500.

Nicely said Jack. Mojo and I discussed as much back when I was looking for sub.

Fixed . Personally I would be proud to own any of these subwoofers on this revised list. All quality companies imo.

I like the revised list, my PB13 Ultra has been great to listen to(along with the Axioms) and problem free I am quite certain it even has enough power to fill the OP's room with good LFE and then he could add a second sub of his choice down the road.

Your option of HSU subs are good BUT if you want the same performance and keep it under the $1000 mark then I would recommend going to the "Outlaw Audio" website and while they are still available, getting TWO LFM-1 Plus "B-Stock" subs. They are essentially built on the same platform of the HSU but with slight design and cosmetic differences.

If you are comfortable with diy builds, you may want to look that way. $1K can get you two good 15's.

If not, my vote goes to the EP500

If you are comfortable with diy builds, you may want to look that way. $1K can get you two good 15's.

If not, my vote goes to the EP500

I never heard the HSU or the SVS, but I love my single EP500 which supplies way more then enough quality bottem end for my 450 square foot dedicated HT room. It also has the DSP chip which I think is worth a few extra dollars.

paul

+1 on the Ultra! I'm one satisfied customer. Thinking about adding in the EP500 in the corner to even things out slightly more, but things have been sounding great enough to put it off. It's a shame to have sit there unused... I just need a big block of time to play with calibration, etc.

Just in case you have second thoughts about the revised list:
Yet another 'satisfied' customer.

^lol, I was reading that a couple hours ago.

The best part is he knows the guy that runs AV123 will see it.

Wow, God am I glad I didn't purchase from that ass-hat! Hey things can go wrong with the best of products (I know that first hand), surely it's in the company's best interest to do whatever it can to satisfy their customers in a timely manner. Now that the internet is as big a part of buying audio equipment as it is today, behaving the way that company has/is can only bring about one thing... certain doom! You just can't get away with treating customers that way in this day and age. Public perception is everything. One dissatisfied customer can reak havoc on an internet company like this one, let alone two thirds of the customers that deal with them. It's mistifying to me that these guys actually think they can get away with this sort of customer service. The end must surely be near for these shmucks!

The service could not be more night and day different than it is over at Axiom. I would whole heartedly recommend to any and all of AV123's dejected customers to give an Axiom product a spin! After the treatment they recieved over there they'd be in for the shock of their lives when an Axiom customer service rep tells them, "your replacement amp/driver/subwoofer is on it's way, once it arrives you can return your defective piece with the pre-paid shipping label we're emailing you at this time, have a great day". No company is perfect from top to bottom, but Axiom's customer service is the absolute benchmark for which all others should model themselves after.

The pairing of Axiom's trmendous customer service and the incredible performance of their products will asure their survival in the audio industry for as long as they wish to do business. Of this I have no doubt.

Wow. I've always had respect for AV123, despite how some on their forums/side/whatever have presented themselves to us and regarding us and Axiom. That's really disappointing to read.

Wow, I haven't been to the sub thread in awhile. I would have liked to think they were isolated incidents but way too many people complaining.

Excellent point about honor. Couldn't have said it better.

There are even more disturbing issues surrounding AV123 other than junk products and bad customer service. Read Pg.2.

I did, that was why I commented about isolated incidents, of which this sub issue is just the tip of the iceberg from the sounds of it.

What a train wreck of a thread. People discussing their Paypal accounts, and terms with dealers and such... Ouch.

Good Point. Common Sense is out the window....

I think it's all down to how the company treats customers though. All the terms and deals and how the guy runs the company doesn't come out (and doesn't mean jack) if people are happy enough to not start prying in the first place. If business is steady any company will survive no matter how much excess spending they have, just look at GM and Chrysler, assuming you are paying your suppliers of course. Once a rough road comes though, it's over. It's hard to say if a small audio company which specializes in lower priced product is going to be seriously effected on the sales side by a bad economy. Certainly wouldn't be as effected as higher end companies.

GM and Chrysler are not good comparisons, they would be gone if it wasn't for the government hand out, but I do know what you mean.

I could care less about their terms with suppliers etc. The alarming things I see is the unethical treatment of its customers and the allegations about the raffle/charity money that was conducted on their fourms. AV123 has always had quality control problems with its parts and assembly of its products streaming across several product lines over the years. Unfortunetly the quality issues are now compounded with other issues. These situations do not have pleasent endings for its customers. It is all too sad to read. I feel for the customers in this case.

I was referring to the way they were a few years back, not run very well and wasted a lot of money, but they were fine because they sold product. Sales dried and because they had no backup, they would have bit if not for the government help.

I definately feel sorry for the customers that got hosed by these frauds when they were still reputable. And while I still feel for current customers, I also feel customers have a responablility to research a purchase of this magnitude, expecially an internet company. Get the facts and educate yourself. There are plenty enough red flags out there now about AV123 that nobody should be doing business with them. And anyone who does, should understand that they are taking a huge gamble. As wide spread as the internet is, customer ignorance should not be nearly as common as it was 10 years ago.

I don't mean to imply that if you ordered from them, then you got what you deserved. I just feel customers should arm themselves with knowledge when they're dealing with internet companies. If you're good enough on the internet to find AV123, then you should have no problems finding out that they are having major issues with customer satisfaction these days.

I say if you're going to gamble like this with $500 (or whatever), just go put it on black, at least you have a chance of doubling your money