Can someone help me understand the difference between running an 8 channel amplifier and multiple 2 channel amplifiers? Is one a better choice than the other? (Other than saving component space of course).

If you have multiple dedicated 15A circuits, you could get quite a few more watts with multiple 2ch. Apart from that, the A1400 has a unique design where it can move huge amount of currents to any channel at any time. If you have 4-Omh speakers and have huge peaks for the mains, they can get 700w each while the surrounds are silent and any combination like that.

Ok, Problem here is much of this is "greek" to me. I am posting like crazy trying to learn as much as i can. I will have the M60's and VP150 with 4 QS8's and an ep350. My receiver is a Denon 3806. Just want to figure out which amplifier option will give me the best sound for my dollar.

Your best sound for the dollar is probably the amp built into that receiver.

Really? Than why do so many people have amplifiers?

You said for the money. It may be that an external amp may add that little bit extra (depending on who you ask), but for what may be not even a 10% increase in sound, is nearly a 500% increase in cost?

Even if you go with a lesser amp than Axiom's, you still have to weigh what you're getting vs. what you're spending. The amps in Denon's receivers are very capable. For everyone who adds an external amp, there are 1000s who don't.

I have my own reasons for perusing external amplification, but its more a philosophy of moving to a separate pre-amp/processor plus amps. I like the flexibility it provides. I have no delusions of magical improvements, and I understand how much more it'll cost than doing it any other way. But it's just what I want. You can come to your conclusions. Listen to what others have to say in the realm of external amps. vs inbuilt.

Moving to seperate components brings up a whole other world......dollar wise. Get your system set up as is and then decide on that external amp, you may find the system is just fine.

I am still waiting to get a seperate amp and am constantly searching for reviews of cheaper/older ones available and in the used market. Unfortunately I have no idea how much better they will sound, if at all.

I do know that I really liked the way my system sounded with the A1400

I concur, the debate on weather or not an external amp provides significant sound enhancement is constantly ongoing. However, no one here would likely ever dispute that your Denon 3806 is a great receiver/amp combo and that it will sufficiently drive your M60s to louder than healthy levels with ease.

I'd suggest trying out the Denon and if you still feel the need to experiment with external amps later to see if you can go even louder, cleaner then you can always certainly do so. I myself am impressed with the power and clarity of my Denon & M60 combo on a daily basis and feel no urge to add more power, except maybe for the bling factor.

..and if you do decide to add externals, make sure you come back to give us the impressions of your changes.

Right now I am running a bit of a different system but still axiom. I have W22, W150 4 QS8's and an EP 175 all powered by the 3806. Building a new home and new room and upgrading to the speakers I mentioned above. I was never really happy (completely) with the sound I got from the system as compared to others. My fathers specifically who had the same on walls but QS8's and an EP 350 powered by a Yamaha RVX2600. My Denon took me an hour to calibtrate and still not really satisfied. His Yamaha took me 15 minutes and it sounds much better. The clarity seemed better and the surround seemed more pronounced. Base definately better but the sub is a huge upgrade from what i understand.

I suppose I can build the cabinet with enough room to house the amplifier, or several amplifiers and try again with just my Denon. I just dont have confidence in it i guess.

Murph, Which Denon? does the watts output make a difference in the clarity or just volume?

There shouldn't be that much difference between those two receiver. I'd say the largest difference would be in the rooms. The room has a bigger effect than the receiver, and even the speakers. You could try the Denon in your father's room.

Aspicer1

You will find two types of people. Those that believe all amplifiers sound the same, and those that don't. I have done some limited testing and tend to believe that they pretty much, at least to my ears, all sound the same.

But regardless whether you hear a difference or not, you need to understand the concept of headroom. Headroom is the reserve that you amplifier needs during peak volumes. If you don’t have enough headroom you could drive your amplifier to clipping, and that could damage your speakers. So depending on the sensitivity of your speakers, the SPL level or volume you listen, and the size of your room, will determine how much power you need to prevent your amplifier into clipping. I am sure there is a formula out there somewhere for this.

A receiver can only be architected to be only so powerful. That is because it is using one transformer for not only the amplifier section, but for the pre / processor section also. There are design limits to doing all of this in one box.

The good news is the Axiom speaker’s sensitivity is pretty good compared to other manufactures. Which means you need less power to drive them? This is why so many people here are happy with their Denon receivers. Also remember that you need more power to drive lower frequencies than higher frequencies. So if you have floor standing speakers and want to use the full range of them, (setting your speakers to Large in the processor) you will need more power. That is why subwoofers, good ones at least, all have huge amplifiers in them.

I have separates because I needed more power in my large room than a standard receiver could deliver.

Remember, under powered amplifiers damage speakers, and you can always use more headroom!

Hope that helps.

paul

His room is different so you can't compare, the room is the second most important part of the equation.

Watts = volume, the more watts the louder you can play. Clarity comes mostly from the speakers and their postion and the room affects how these speakers are going to sound and lastly the electronics can have a certain amount of influence on the overall sound.

Forgot to add that yes there is a HUGE improvement moving up to his sub.

Keep in mind a lot of the guys on the forum using an external amp are using the M80's (such as Micah), which is a harder to drive speaker than the M60, or any other speaker in Axiom's line, really. Guys like grunt and I am sure a few others are running M80's with only the receiver (albeit a nice one) without a problem. Grunt was saying it took about 90 minutes of 100 dB listening to shut his receiver down. Heck, he runs three of them a lot of the time.

In terms of sound quality, I agree with the others, is the perhaps 10% better sound worth the money?

I think it is hard to quantify the amount of better(I use the word loosely) sound. I could easily tell there was punchier, more pronounced(?) bass at any sound level , well any that was worth listening to and the highs were also that much crsiper, airy, (insert your own favorite audiophile word here). Was it a 10, 20, 30% increase in sound quality? I don't know. Is it worth the added expense for the A1400? To me it is. Can I afford the A1400? No . Am I going to feel I am lacking anything when I finally get into the new house and fire up the M80s, 3808 and the rest of the system, not really. The system still plays incredibly detailed and low and I feel I would have to spend BIG bucks to improve upon it significantly for me to justify the expense.

As I have said I am looking for that outboard amp but it has to WOW me like the A1400 did and I am not so sure the cheaper ones will.

Great stuff guys! I think that the room really must be the difference. My room is 18x18x8. His room is 24x16x10. Perhaps I should focus more on speaker placement than power. Im thinking of going to a 9.2 also so perhaps rather than spending the money on an amp i can spend it on a reciever and add another sub. Forgive me for this question. Are the other 2 speakers (7 to 9) additional surrounds or other?

Aaron, unless your 3806 doesn't put out enough power to drive your speakers to a safe volume level at your listening position(highly unlikely)there's no good reason to spend more money on yet more maximum power capacity. More isn't better if more isn't used, and unused headroom is simply that: unused.

As to a possible 9.2 setup, the additional two speakers would most likely be best used as "height" speakers situated several feet directly above the mains and which would be fed(if the receiver has the processing capability)with sound extracted from other channels which is considered to be heard best from an upward angle.

Aaron, just enjoy your equipment you have, then later if you think you need more power you can look at other options. My room is 31 x 30 x 9 and my 3808 gives me all the volume I need.

And this from a guy who had seperate amps and sold them.

My room is 35 x 35 x 9, and my 4802 gave me all the volume I 'needed', but I like going beyond what I need occasionally. I would say your Denon takes you 95% of the way to audio zen, and external amplification squeezes out the last 5%. I totally understand why most people don't feel inclined to pay so much to extract that last 5% out of their system. But it's also my belief that once you do experience that last 5% of performance, it changes your outlook on the equation as a whole. It's not 100%, but a very good percentage of those who take the plunge never look back.

But honestly, external amplification is like icing on the cake, at best it's the very last step you want to take. Once you have everything else dialed in, then add more power if you still want it. Outboard amps aren't a cure-all by any stretch of the imagination. If you're having issues with your system more power isn't going to fix anything. If you think it through logically, more amplification is only going to take whatever audible problems you might be having, and amplify them... right? So don't think of separate amps as a solution, think of them as taking a well sorted system to another (volume) level.

Others have answered your question fully but since you asked. I have the 3806. 120 Watts/channel.

I also fall into the camp that believes an external amp would not produce any further clarity for me unless I someday reach a point where I need gads more volume to fill a huge space.

I would however be willing to experiment in a true, controlled, double blind listening test to see if the science can be proven wrong. Thus I try to remain a bit neutral and stick to my advice that the Denon will almost certainly please you beyond a doubt but if you have the money to experiment with thousands of dollars for a potential of small gains, then by all means feel free and report back your findings.

Edit:
A further thought. A also have a much cheaper Panasonic 100 w/c receiver driving two M60s upstairs for music in the main house area. This is a Much, much bigger space than my small HT room in the basement with the full setup. When sitting down to listen to good source material (a good source is the key) then I am once again astounded by the clarity the M6os produce even with the much cheaper receiver.

I can push this system to levels where I 'think' I hear some light clipping (sound seems to get a bit more muddied and fatiguing' but this is at ridiculously loud experiments in volumes. Levels I would never use for long and expect my hearing not to be severely effected.

If you want to hit TRUE reference with your setup, an external amp is almost always neccessary. Go to this site and plug in your parameters: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html#anchor_13115

For me, on a good day my Onkyo is 'supposed' to output 100 watts per channel. In reality, it closer to 75 (assuming all channels driven). But let's take the 100 watts as the best case. I sit 8 feet from my M60s. With my setup, the PEAK SPL I can get is about 100db. That is 5 dbs from reference. To get 103db, I would have to have 200 watts. To get 106, I would need 400 watts (double the power for each 3db gain). I do not know of any AVRs that will output 400 watts. Considering that my receiver is not really putting out 100 watts, I figure the best I can currently do is about 98-100db. Not exactly reference, but close enough for me.

I find true reference levels too loud and I would guess many others do as well, which is why ~100wpc works for many people.

if you have the money to Buyamp, go for it.

Of course, some people would want to Tryamp first.

Once you Tryamp you never want to go back.

Unless you're Randy. In which case, you Ditchamp.

Well, there's me, who is Wishamp.

John

It is true that un-used headroom is simply headroom that is un-used. The problem is how you know when you are at that point. Let’s say we are in a car and we pull out into the left lane to pass, as we are passing the car and we see a truck coming towards us, you realize you don't have the horsepower or torque to get passed the car you are passing in time, but now you are committed. Not a fun feeling and you are probably wishing you opted for the six cylinder version.

When or if you are pushing your audio system, how do you know if you are damaging your tweeter, until after it has been damaged? Then it's too late, damage done. Think of extra power as insurance, for that one time you (or someone else) went a little too far.

But as you said, if you never push it to that limit, you don't have to worry.

paul

I have heard enough to think that best option for me is to build room for an amp and see how it goes. "upgradeitis" is definatley hard to fight! Learning a lot though. Thanks to all for the input.....

there is always Johnamps.

Upgraditis is OK and healthy as long as you are getting value for your money and it isn't leaving you short in other aspects of your life (mortgage, car payment, fights with sig. other).

What ever you choose, remember to enjoy the experience.

paul

Paul, irrelevant analogies about cars are neither necessary nor helpful.

I like the car reference, Im a car guy! Keep at it Paul......

Ok, maybe the car analogy wasn't spot on the issue, but the question still stands; how do you know you are not damaging your driver(s) until the damage is done? The answer is you don't. This is essentially what we call a destructive testing. When I sit and set the volume to SPL level peak of 100 db, I don't get any damage. If I want to go to 101 db will it do damage, the only way to know is to try it. Hmm, "Are you feeling lucky, P@#K". Ok, only kidding. But once you hear the damage, it's too late. I know this from experience (not with my Axiom's BTW).

I am not saying receivers are bad, actually I think they are very practical. You just need to understand their limitations and act accordingly. If not, you'll be opening your pocket book to repair speakers. I just choose instead to open my pocket book to get more power to minimize the possibility of speaker damage.

paul

Lol, hey Paul don't get too defensive about it, there's no need to hang your head in shame. Finding a power amp inside your AV closet isn't like finding a marijuana cigarette in your hand, you don't have to exclaim, "I USE IT FOR MADICINAL PURPOSES ONLY"!!!

Everyone who listens to music HAS to have a power amp. Some chose to stick with the one's that fit nice and neat inside a reciever, others chose the one's that a reciever could fit inside of. With as many differing opinions as there are in this hobby, it comes as no surprise that power amps are as hotly debated as they are. But it's not the sort of thing where guys who own recievers are the good guys and those of us with power amps are the bad guys.

Ed Begley Jr rides a bicycle around when he's out and about running errands, going to visit a friend and so on and so forth... a bicycle is all anyone really 'needs'. How many of us ride bicycles around everywhere we go? I ride a two wheeled rocket ship around that sucks down dead dinosaur blood and puts 175 hp to the pavement in a violent and dangerous manner... there's no way I can defend my reasoning for doing this other than to say, "it's just the kinda guy I am".

I could get by with a 50 watt per channel reciever just as easily as I could get by the Ed Begley Jr way... hell for that matter I don't NEED to eat meat (like that delicious porterhouse I just had), have sex (already have two kids) or tell my fiancee I love her everyday (I already gave her a ring saying that didn't I???)... but hey, that's just the kinda guy I am folks.

4 Yamaha 2 channel M80s, Integra processor, dedicated 15 amp line, Thiel CS3.6s, center channel - modified Merak MC6H with twin Axiom 6.5" drivers and an Axiom/Merak horn tweeter, side surrounds, QS8s, back surrounds Michaura M55s, SVS 20-39 plus subwoofer. Works well.

Yamaha M80:
Continous power rating into 8 ohms 250 wpc, 20Hz-20kHz, 0.003% THD [0.02% THD, 330 wpc into 4 ohms]
Dynamic Power, 1kHz into 8ohms 380 wpc, into 4 ohms, 640 wpc.

I had them modified (new caps, donkey dick power cords and new speaker posts.)

Yammie Mammies, M80s, awesome amps - stable to 2 ohm loads never at a loss for power. If you can get your hands on M80s, you won't be disappointed.

Interesting, pushing M80's with M80's!!!

No room for M80s in here.

You're all about the discontinued equipment, aren't you?

Speaking of which, it'll be a sad day when Eric's beautiful unit is discontinued equipment.

Actually, once you have it, it doesn't matter if it gets discontinued!

Another great thread. I have a couple of extra bucks coming my way and I've been trying to decide what to buy next. I have been considering an amp (Emotiva 3 channel) to run my M22's which are my L/C/R's and then leave my old Onkyo to drive the surrounds.

Believe it or not, my other option is to finally buy/make a sub. To this point I only have 5.0 sound and I am actually considering an amp for my fronts before a sub!

I am sure that is crazy talk and EVERYONE here would tell me to get the sub first... but I just can't get over the thought of havng 200 watts per channel dedicated across the front and then I picture the amp sitting in my rack and it just brings a smile to my face. I fully understand that I likely will hear no difference what so ever, especially as I am never running these speakers loud at all... I just WANT to do it!

When push comes to shove I don't know what my decision will be, but the decision will be made in the next couple of week.

The amp may help you out when you play loud. The sub will help out all the time with all content. Except for some of the oldest classic films which have no content in the lowest octaves, my sub is always outputting some bit of filler.

Ultimately it is your setup, and your choice. But there's a reason everyone is going to tell you to get the sub first. Trust us, that fuller sound should make you smile just as much as a piece of jewelry sitting in your rack.

I do trust you... I really do... I can't believe I'm still debating it. The biggest mental draw back is the shipping to Canada on that amp, if I could get it here for less I think i'd of pulled the trigger already. Emotiva really needs a Canadian distributor.

Have you ever heard a really good sub in a system? If you were running anything close to full-range speakers then I would say do what your heart tells you to do. But buddy you're missing out of the biggest impact movies and music have imbedded in their audio codecs... THUNDEROUS BASS!!!! I hear you, you are fantasizing about those three blue lights of the Emotiva and the circular blue power button below them glowing in your equipment rack while you're rocking out to your favorite jams... hey I have those blue lightes in my room, and yeah they're cool, but not nearly as cool as hearing everything the sound engineers in the recording studio's have packed into those discs you listen too/watch!

Like it's been said, it's your money my man, we all have different priorities in life. But if you buy the sub first I think your smile will be twice as wide as it will be if you get the amp first.

Micah, I do hear you... but I'm afraid the EP800 you're running is not in the cards for me. I followed your thread for the longest time, but never did read a conclusion, did you end up keeping the EP800?

I borrowed a neighbours old sub for a couple of weeks and it was pretty great, but I think I'm looking for something that puts out sub 20hz. The EP350 is what is closer to my price range from Axiom but I'd really like something for a little less money then that, I've been considering the diy route, or at least a kit from one of the Canadian resellers and building an enclosure as cabinet space is of little concern to me, I can build a pretty big one if it means getting lower bass.

I am truley fantatising about the 3 blue lights That and our dollar is strong again and the XPA-3 is onsale at right now.

Roar, have a look at the DSP series subs from Paradigm....as you live in Ontario, the prices are quite reasonable here. I picked up my DSP3400 for $700CA at Audio Video Unlimited, it's an excellent sub for the $$.

Another place to check out subs(SVS) is at Sonic Boom Audio in Markham, if you don't go with an Axiom sub.

Sadly my subwoofer situation is up in the air at the moment. But luckily I have the M80's, which completely satisfy my bass thirst while listening to music. Not that the EP800 was useless for musical recordings, it still added even MORE, and I loved it. But for music I can live with just the M80's all day long without any withdrawl symptoms sneaking up on me.

And as for the 'sub 20 hz' statement, I think it was Jakewash that pointed out that what most of us bass-heads consider 'deep bass', is really the 60 - 90 hz range of the scale. Sub 20 hz is the stuff that rattles the walls and the neighbors walls, but you don't hear it. It's really great for movies, but not much music hits below 20 hz. And the thing I found out about subs that do sub 20 hz really well, is that they don't necessarily do 60 - 90 hz outstandingly well. I say this because I was under the same impression as you, that I needed a sub to go as low or lower than anything else out there on the market so that I could experience the same chest pounding bass that I used to get out of my car system. Turns out, the subs in my car probably weren't reaching half as deep as HT subs can go, but they hit me in the chest so hard my heart fluttered. So I was looking behind the wrong door the whole time.

To sum up what I'm trying to say here is, don't think if you can't buy a $2300 dollar subwoofer that it's not worth buying one at all, because the sub that's going to do what you want it to do may only end up costing you a fifth of that my friend!




(and yes, DIY subs can get you loads of performance for a fraction of the cost of a manufactured unit)

Adrian, thanks for the note on the Paradigm, I will check those out. I had found that Sonic Boom was the SVS Canadian distributor and was thinking about calling them to see what they have in stock, because I do find a difference between what the SVS site says the current models are and the Sonic Boom site as well as some dead links on the Sonic Boom site on one of the products I'd like to know more about, 20-39PCi.

Micah - I had done enough reading to this point to realize that the sub 20Hz was the bass you felt and didn't actually hear and that it is related more to movies then music. And I had read enough of your thread to realize that you were quite happy with the 800 in music performance and it was only letting you down in the movies... the iron man sequence is one I've gone back and familiarized myself with for when it comes time to audition

That is one of my thoughts/fears that if I don't spend >1k on a sub I won't get the expereince I'm looking for. I need to start listening to some more subs, if I can find some <20Hz subs to listen to, like some of the SVS line, I think that would help make me decide if I can actually hear/feel the difference between a <20Hz sub or not.

Micah, I think you've got it.

It would be interesting to EQ a good sub like my PB13 to have an output bump in the 50-80hz range just see if it can produce that chest pound feel.I guess this would be a good reason to run multiple subs above an beyond the normal 2-4. I can remember the PB12-nsd had a chest thump feel to it and it does have a minor bump in the 50-60hz range.

I also know the bass Micah is talking about from the M80s, they had my room rattling AND had some pretty good chest pound when I had the A1400 hooked up.

Roar, I can assure you the M22s won't have any great change in sound with a more powerfull amp. I ran them with the A1400 and the only difference I heard was the highs had better seperation and were cleaner at louder volume. I actually thought they sounded a little anemic due to the lack of bass they produced because the mids and highs over shadowed them so much, they really needed a sub when hooked to the outboard amp.

I know you weren't wowed by the sub you tried, unless it was a quality sub like the Axiom ep350 and up, Paradigm dsp series or the SVS subs or of similar/better quality like we mention here, you were not getting the full picture. I tried many subs out and none were as good as those we constantly bring up on this forum. I feel the Paradigm DSP series is quite possibly the best bang for the buck along with the EP350.

Well, it's sounds like you've put a lot of thought into it at least. Yes the unit did ultimately let me down as far as movie performance goes, but the cause of this is still unknown. I don't really know if it was the sub's lack of capability, trying to fill too much space with bass from one unit, or some other problem in my equipment that has yet to surface.

And it's because the exact reason is yet unknown that I hesitate to either recommend or dismiss the EP800, or any other Axiom subwoofer for that matter. Once I get the chance to roll the dice with another subwoofer set up then hopefully more of these questions will be answered. Until then.... me and my M80's will dance the night away!

roar,
Many decades ago when I left my parents house and moved into my first (and only) apartment I bought a bed and $2,000 worth of stereo equipment, a lot of money in the 70's

My logic is as follows. I NEEDED a couch, chairs, tables, etc. etc. so I knew that I would have to find a way to get them. I didn't NEED a stereo system and if I had spent my money on furniture there is a chance I would have never gotten the stereo system of my dreams.

I was single then and that served me well, I wouldn't advise it if you are married.

In other words buy the amp. The subwoofer will follow.

Ah a man after my own heart! I used much of the same logic you speak of back in my 20's... well, for that matter I guess I still do. I'll site my own example...

When my first wife and I first met I had just discovered motorcycles and had a 250 Ninja that I'd had for about 3 months, but was quickly outgrowing. She of course was totally into the bike since we were just starting to fall in love, so naturally she loved everything about me. And since the bike was part of me, she loved it. I also had a Cavalier Z-24 coupe with a full blown car stereo system installed (twin 12 inch Kicker subs, Kenwood reciever, Kenwood separate speakers, Precision Power amps, Precision Power electronic cross-over, etc...). So when we got engaged and found out she was preganant the Z-24 was no longer going to be the ideal car for us. My parents had a station wagon that was sort of old, but ran perfectly well and they were willing to sell it to me dirt cheap. So I had a dilema to consider... do I sell my car and buy a really nice family car/minivan/SUV? Or do I sell my car and my bike, buy my parents station wagon and the bike of my dreams? Well I followed the same logic you did, I decided that if I blew all my money then on a really nice family vehicle, the motorcycle of my dreams would never find it's way into my garage. So I sold my 250 and my Z-24 and bought a Kawasaki ZX-7 with all the aftermarket goodies (full Muzzy exhaust, stage 3 jet kit, ignition advancer, super coils, 520 chain and sprocket conversion kit, one down two up gearing upgrade, Corbin seat, chrome and carbon fiber bits sprinkled all over the place... everything my heart desired), and my parents station wagon.

Probably not the same call most would make, but my love of motorcycles has lasted 15 years now and only gets stronger as the years go by. And after we got married my motorcycle was suddenly the root of all evil in the eyes of my wife (ex-wife now), and she thought up every possible reason imaginable as to why I had to sell it. Which I never did, but it showed me that had I opted for the nice family car and then gone after my dreams of having a kick-ass motorcycle later, it never would have materialized while I was with her (5 years). So I for one, never regretted the move. The car was a hoopty, but it got us where we needed to go reliably. I bought a Honda Accord 2 years later, but the station wagon stuck around until her younger brother finally got his drivers license and totalled it 3 months later.

All the same arguments can be said for buying a ~$2000 subwoofer.

I think it still comes down what will make the biggest improvement in SQ and right now I think the sub will have more impact/improvement. Now if he was to be buying some M60s/M80s and a new amp to drive them then I would have to go with the towers and the new amp

Have you considered using a ButtKicker

Nothing I’ve used goes that low with as much authority. Use one and you will quickly learn that there is almost nothing out there to reproduce in the under 20Hz range.

If your looking for chest pounding maybe try a MBM-12 Mid-bass Module

I haven’t ever used one but am thinking about trying one to see what it can do in conjunction with a Buttkicker and EP500.

If you do go for it, I look forward to what you'll have to say about it.

As will I! Are there many other options out there? Not that the HSU doesn't look adequate, just curious.

The HSU mid-base module is interesting, it kind of makes you wonder if anyone out there is working on a "two-way" sub, one driver dealing with the lowest bass/the other driver playing the the upper bass(if it's not been done).

Yeah, it seems like if subwoofers have multiple drivers, they're all of the same size. I wonder how hard it is to integrate different sizes of drivers into the same subwoofer.

I haven’t done much research on this yet. Just an idea I’m considering after I get a few other priorities, like curtains, cabling, carpet and possibly room treatment out of the way. I try to prioritize my upgrades based on what will give me the most improvement for the money at that time.

I’m already loving the mid/upper bass coming from my 3 M80s up front but they don’t carry the LFE channel, well unless I didn’t use a sub. My EP500 has no problem filling the room with sound and shaking both the furniture and the foundation but I miss that in-your-face feeling I’m getting from the M80s.

Right now I’ve got the EP500 near the back right corner of the room, mostly to keep the front open. My original plan was to buy an LCD (computer monitor) and a plasma (day to day TV watching) to go slightly behind my M80s on either side of the center. However, testing with my DLP has revealed that’s to far away to use as a computer monitor, colours the sound up front and I like having room to walk between the M80s.

I reconsidered my original plan to wall mount the LCD and plasma on brackets that swing out from the side walls but that is going to be at the limit of my visual acuity as a computer monitor and my eyesight aint getting any better. Additionally, since moving in April I’ve only watched about 10 hours of TV so when my year is up, unless something changes I’m dumping the DirectTV so no need for the plasma.

Which brings me to my new plan (always subject to change) of buying just an LCD and like I’m doing with my DLP right now just slide it in and out of the adjacent room as needed. By listening in stereo or switching to a phantom center I can still have perfect audio at the sweet spot even with the HDTV in the middle because I have a direct line-of-sight, with room to spare, to both mains.

This means for movie watching I now have room up front between the mains and center for the sub(s) or perhaps more effectively Mid-bass modules (I‘d need 2 for symmetry ). This quest in part comes from one setup I had in my apartment where the EP500 was right in front of the TV about 4 feet in front of my seating. This gave me the level of impact I liked for explosions (in the real world explosions are directional) but at the cost of the lower bass being boomy, and a twice re-broken toe (first broke it surfing) when cutting to close walking by the sub. EP500 beats the crap out of toe every time. So the sub ended up in back and I lost the directional feel of the explosions.

Since giving that directions feel seems to be exactly what the Mid-bass Module is designed for while minimizing room interactions. It seems to me it will be a better solution than just adding multiple subwoofers. My idea is to use the Buttkicker for the 40Hz and below, the Mid-bass Modules for the 50-80 or so and the EP500 to sort of tie it all together.

Not hard. Since they're different sizes and thus intended to reproduce different parts of the audio spectrum a crossover would be required. This could be done two ways: A single amp feeding into the crossover network which leads to each of the subs. Or since electricity is available an active crossover could be right after the input, and that feeds two separate amps which are in turn directly connected to their own subs. Both ways would work well, the second is obviously more expensive, but possibly provide better results. Since one maker would be combining all the components things could be tuned very accurately, better than a MBM added to an unknown sub.

I freely submit my idea (not that it is very original) to Axiom, please build this, please, please, please.

I've mentioned in previous threads that this was exactly what my dream had always been in car audio. Build a sub box with a 15 or 18, a 12 and an 8 or 10 inch woofers all pushing different frequencies. I'd be very surprised if to date nobody has every tried it. Although I have yet to hear about it if they did.

You're not making this any easier, this was supposed to be an easy one, everyone calls me crazy and tells me to get the sub

I've got to track down one of those Paradigm subs and get myself out to Markham to hear the SVS subs, if they don't completely bowl me over I may be calling Emotiva.

Now if I could just bill a couple of extra hours on this project I'm working on maybe I could swing both.

Here is another thought this message put into my head, the Emotiva amp would come into the house, straight into the basement and would go pretty much unnoticed... the sub on the other hand would be noticed pretty much immediately, so I like the unknown WAF on the amp

I sent you a PM.

Dean, I think you should try a seperate amp to drive the M80s, the bass I could get from them with the A1400 was incredible and it had alot of impact, much more than with the 3808 alone. The extra power from the seperate amp makes a much larger difference with the mid bass on the M80s than anywhere else, go for the A1400-2

I must not have been clear with what I was saying. The mid-bass of the M80s is fantastic right now with the Onkyo, not that more power wouldn‘t make it better. Where the mid-bass is falling short is from the LFE channel. Part of it is that I haven’t moved the sub back up front near-field since running Audyssey on the Onkyo which tamed the room down quite a bit. But I’ve still got a feeling that to get the mid-bass I want the EP500 is actually going to be to much because it goes so low. I sort of like the mid-bass running hot which has been pushing the low bass way over the top. So I still have some tweaking and probably room treatments but I’m not sure if that’s going to be enough.

So the mid-bass on the M80s if fine I’m just trying to get the LFE channel to catch up w/o everything getting to rumbly.

I see

The same consideration should go towards your hearing. Once you have damaged your ears its too late. Listening at levels of 100+ dbs can really do a lot of harm.

.

Nah, the extra power does not change the sound. Well, not until things get loud, or more accurately, when the spl range gets real.

Then you notice the sound is not harsh or fatiguing at levels you once thought were the top of the comfort zone. At that thin margin of the listening experience you feel the bass guitar of "Come Together" as if you can fee each vibration of the strings as the pluck decays; same for a piano or a bluesy voice.

It is the change (in my room) from good, to the momentary suspension of disbelief needed to really fall into a performance you have "listened to" hundreds of times. (And holy cow, was Star Trek freeken loud!)

Dean, you probably fit the APB for the type of person that would enjoy the company of the pixies that come from an external amp. You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave the pixies.

Ok that was a freakishly timely post! I just got done watching Tinker Bell and the Lost Treasure which is all about pixie dust. And because I just moved my sub up front and pushed my seating closer to the speakers wanted to test the effect it had on the stereo separation and bass so I put on Abby Road.

I have not doubt that I will get separates at some point. However my first choice in amps would be a tube amp. Not trying to start any debates just stating I like tube amps when paired with “bright” speakers and for right now I can listen with my Onkyo 3007 much louder than is healthy w/o any distortion I can detect.

GRUNT: My first choice in amps would be a tube amp.

YODA: Tubes, yes. Good they are. Like them you will, you will.

Yes the first audio Jedi master I knew, a housemate at university, had a tube amp and I loved it. Besides sounding good you can put on trippy music and . . . well trip out and stare at it. Ok you’re either into that sort of thing or not.

When I was demoing speakers before getting the Axioms I almost picked up some Focal Chorus at a local shop. I loved the way they sounded with the tube amp he had hooked up. Only problem to go that route then would have cost to much at the time (I was not really employed then) and my focus was HT so I figured I would need something that could also handle that.

Once I finish my HT room looking at tube amps is high on the list. I’ll be sure to ask for recommendations.

Cheers,
Dean

Tubes also known as fire bottles. Good to look at great for music. The combination of Focals and a SET tube amp is magic. So is the combination of a pair of M3Tis and a SET amp.

G'luck with your HT set up!

Have you heard the Dolby intro to Indiana Jones Cave of the Crystal Skull? I can listen to that thing all day long. Every domain of the frequency range gets to shine but to really get the full measure of delightful sonic violence you need a sub which goes down to 20 Hz or better.

That reminds me. I need to listen to that again now that I have my dual EP800s along with the SVS AS-EQ1. It sounded good me to before, but not absolutely wonderful. Maybe it'll sound better now.

I like that one it’s got a lot more going on than the old THX intro like at the beginning of “Star Wars III.” The animation is pretty cool too. However, I’m kind of nostalgic for the old one since it reminds me of when I use to go to movie theaters. My EP500 does a good job on the low frequencies anything it can’t handle gets picked up by the Buttkicker well at least down to 5Hz. I’m not sure how low anything I’ve got recorded actually goes since the Buttkicker’s low-pass filter bottoms out at 40Hz. Plenty going on below that.

Dual 800s, yes that should work!

Home theater movie watching certainly presents fewer bio hazards than the movie theater experience.