I wonder which will work better. Two VP150's side by side or one M80? I would think two VP150's but I'm not sure.

Since I won't be able to get around to height speakers for a while (I want the FWs etc to settle down first), I figured I could fight upgraditis with this.

It's not even that my lone 150 sounds bad or anything...but I figured more is better. Having read about the lobe effect, I was wondering if others have done this. I do recall some of you using M80's for centers so I thought I'd ask.

Side by side horizontally? How large of a screen do you have?

I'd be concerned about the center starting to make the whole thing sound rather mono.

I believe one centered M80 would sound better than two 150s, three M80s across the front would be my very first choice of fronts and center speakers. I've tried it with one M60 and the pair of 80s and the sound was great ... the 60 was just a smidgen too tall for our viewing pleasure.

If you have the room for a vertical M80 center, that would be ideal, with wider and smoother horizontal dispersion and matching your mains.

Doh, sorry. I forgot to mention that it would have to sit on its side! It's a 67" DLP and two 150's or M80 fits across the top.

In that case, I can't see any significant benefit in either the M80 or two VP150s.

You would not want to turn an m80 on its side and 2 150's side by side most likely would resolve nothing, if anything it would widen the center sound stage and give you less seperation from the left/right speakers.

Not sure I understand what your trying to accomplish.

Yeah, I'd also stay away from either configuration.

Don’t tell me you can’t fit one vertically above a DLP.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthre...true#Post219121

Based on your placement restrictions I would recommend that you stick with one VP150. After a lot of center channel testing I can give you my take:

A single vertical M22 upside down above the DLP would sound better than a horizontal VP150 for all applications. Unlike the vertical M80 above the screen which pulled the middle of the front soundstage up a little the M22 didn’t do this. Though the effect of pulling the soundstage up gave a wall of sound effect that was not distracting for music. It made the center of the musical stage sound like it was on a dais.

Dual vertical M22s above and below was also better than a single horizontal VP150. I believe Fred is doing this with dual M2s to good effect. I suspect dual VP150s above and below would help give more of a wall of sound effect but you’d loose the advantage having a vertical speakers gives for horizontal dispersion.

Dual M22s on there sides w/tweeters outboard gives a neat wall of sound effect for movies but destroys discrete instrument/vocalist placement for music. Tweeters inboard caused horrible almost nauseating lobing. I suspect dual VP150 side by side would also put two tweeters close together and cause bad lobing.

A single horizontal M80 above the screen sounds like crap for both music and movies.

Yes I had a lot of time on my hands.
Dean

You could go with 2 M2's on top if height is an issue and achieve slightly better results according to those that have tried or heard both the VP150 and M2's

What, no love for the VP150 around here eh? Well I love mine. But I would not place two of them side by side... EVER! One on top and one on bottom, sure. But side by side? That would be a no.

Love the 150, for what it is, but 3 of the same or nearly the same speaker across the front is better than any 2 with the 150.

What Jay said!

Same goes for any other brand’s horizontal center IMO.

I love my 150 below my 10ft wide screen, never had the need for a second one...hmmmm upgradeitis calling...

A VP150 just sold on Ebay for about $100. I almost pulled the trigger as I too am interested in the effects of two VP150's (bottom and top of the screen).

paul

Dual VP-150 is great!

Can you describe what the difference is, between 1 vs 2 VP150s?

The main difference is that the "horizon" of the sound stage is level with the L/R. This is more important for music, but also for movies. When I used only one, I had the choice between an orchestra that was layed out "/\" or "\/" (not as pronounced, but you get the gist). With one VP150 shooting at my stomach and one slightly above my head, the sound stage becomes flat.

One of the best way to "hear that" is to set your system 4.1 and listen to the front stage of multi-ch and then move to 5.1. With dual centers, the "horizon" remains identical, with a fuller front stage. With the center at the bottom or top, the "line" is skewed.

I just went from a VP100 on top of the screen with a VP150 below the screen to just the single 150 below the screen and it sounds better in this configuration, I'm thinking there's some noise cancellation going on with the two centers ... but of course six months ago the 100/150 combo sounded perfectly fine. I believe *not* focusing on exactly where the sound is coming from and positioning the center ideally makes a big difference.

I loved my VP150 above my screen…I love my M80 even more. Come on Randy get rid of the stage and put 3 M80s across the front.



I just want to clarify that your only talking about experiencing the leveling of the soundstage. Because when I deselected the VP150 and ran a phantom center with my M80s the biggest improvement for me was overall sound quality. I was to busy picking my jaw up off the floor to notice height difference at first.

No. With 2 VP150s, I get better quality than phantom with my 2 M80s.

So when are you replacing your M80s with dual VP150s?

I'm starting to get the idea that perhaps ignorance is bliss! I love the way my system sounds right now with the VP150 hanging above my screen pointed at my head. If I go into the Denon and chose 'phantom center' I may ruin this audio zen of mine by discovering that indeed the grass really IS greener on the other side of the mountian!

Please step away from the remote sir!

That’s exactly how it happened to me. Can’t remember why I even tried a phantom center but once I heard how a “simulated” M80s center sounded I seldom used my VP150 again. I’m not trying to be dismissive of the VP150 but a couple questions.

How many people are using or get recommended to use 3 VP150 L/C/R across the front?

How many people are using or get recommended to use a VP150 (or M2, M3, M22) L/H main with an M80 R/H main.

Do you suppose there’s a reason for this?

Ok three questions.

To be fair I‘d ask this question of any speaker brand and did ask an AV123 fanboy why he bothered with buying rockets when he posted that his bigfoot sounded “as good or better.”

Jay said it most succinctly above:



Back off! I see you eyeballing that remote.

Cheers,
Dean

Well curiosity killed the cat, but not my set-up. I resisted the urge to try out using the M80's as a 'phantom center' for all of 5 minutes... well that's a bit misleading, I've sort of wondered about it ever since I first read some on here prefered it to the VP150.

So anyway I went in and turned the center channel off (does this automatically create the 'phantom center' that you all talk about when it's in 5.1 mode? Because I did not prefer it at all. I thought it completely obliterated the center channel. And I'm one who does like more of the center information to come out of the mains. But this I didn't like. In fact turning the VP150 back on was so exponentially more impressive, and sound field expanding, that it made me wonder how anyone could choose the phantom center over the VP? This made me think that somehow I'm not getting the 'phantom center' that you all are experiencing. I couldn't be. If I was, then I must somehow have gotten ahold of a super top secret beta version of the new VP200 that's coming out in the future that's going to knock everyone's socks off!!!

Oh well, guess I may have just dodged a bullet. Right now I'm more in love with my VP150 than ever before, but had I experienced that phenomenom everyone talks about, perhaps right now I'd be wondering how in the hell I was going to fit another M80 underneath or above my 65 inch Sharp??? :P

Man, if I had high enough ceilings, I would definitely go for a third M80. Our basement ceiling isn't even 7' high, which is really going to feel cramped.

Glad it worked out for you. I’ve come to accept some people just perceive things differently, well perhaps I perceive things differently than most people is a better way to put it.

I had my speakers very close together (at the edge of the TV) and sat close (6’) both of which can make a big difference with even slight tonal mismatches. Also didn’t have or like my center running hot. Note that people usually perceive louder to sound better which is why level matching speakers for an A/B comparison is a must.

What I found better was the overall detail and clarity, tonal quality of vocals, especially males, and a greater dynamic range (running 40Hz crossover). The soundstage stayed pretty much the same.

I haven’t even tried the VP150 as a center here in the house so I should in due diligence hook it up to my Onkyo and give it a run. I’m pretty sure my Denon was faulty so perhaps that was also effecting the center channel. It was the one that Auddyssey screwed up the most on that receiver. Who knows I might own my 150 an apology, but I’m still not breaking up the with M80 to get back together with it.

I would have traded the apartment for a 7’ high basement any day.

Grunt have you ever tried placing the VP150 vertically on top of your tv? I know you have that option, wonder how it would sound?

Thanks everyone. This was a veiled attempt at curing my upgraditis. This way, I won't have to buy a new AVR and add two QS8's for height speakers. My current setup doesn't allow for wides. More things to consider now. Thanks again.

Yes I did try it after reading this article at Audioholics:

Conclusion, Rankings and Evaluation

I should clarify that I’m not saying the results of the Audioholics test prove any particular setup sounds best. IMO there are just to many factors to consider…speaker placement, room interactions, listening material, personal preference etc… to draw any conclusions about a particular persons perceived sound quality based on numbers alone.

I easily preferred the horizontal dispersion of the VP150 oriented vertically for music. Instrument and vocalist placement was more precise. However, there is something to be said for the “wall-of-sound” effect for movies it creates oriented horizontally especially sitting up close. When I tried M22 center and eventually the M80 I found that sitting up close 6’ I could hear the vertical center as separate from the mains. Moving farther away just out to 8’ eliminated that. Also arraying it vertically pulled the center of the soundstage up. Again this effect diminished with distance.

I can’t say how the vertical VP150 sounded compared to the M22 because I didn’t have the M22s back then and never thought to try it when I did. I plan to hook the VP150 up this weekend and A/B/C compare the M80/M22/VP150 something I haven’t done here in the house or with the new receiver so I’ll be sure to give it a try this time.

You're a good source of information Grunt. With so many speakers to A/B as well as the time and willingness to experiment your conclusions are fascinating to read. We all have our own preferences, but its still great to have someone like you and Efalardeau around to stir the pot from time to time!

I wish I had the funds to buy other speakers(non Axiom) to do A/B comparisons with. The only speakers I need to hear and compare from Axiom are the M50's to complete the full set and I guess the QS4 v2, I had the originals but they went back in favor of the QS8s. Dang, forgot about the M0's, looks like a few more to test out still.

I don't think I have ever seen a full writeup of your experiments with centers Dean. I am very happy that I bought the M2s for centers.

It bought me 3 things: 15Hz of extension on the bottom end over the VP150, excellent centering of dialog for movies, excellent horizontal dispersion of sound. And all that for only $40 more than the VP100.

The big down side of my setup is WAF. I doubt many spouses would accept a speaker sticking up over the display the way mine is. In my case, with no SO to worry about the decision was really a no brainer.

Over the years, I have been one who has almost continually experimented with center channel speakers and what, to me anyway, provides the most realistic presentation for either movies or music. It should be noted for my trouble I now have FOUR center channels sitting in boxes in my basement INCLUDING a VP150. What I have found is that despite their dispersion capabilities and unless they are quite large, horizontal center speakers all have the tendency to emphasize that lower midrange(300-500hz levels) and lack of upper bass, giving voices a somewhat unnatural "boxy" effect. I think we all know how positioning can change the tone considerably and Alan Lofft has written an interesting article about this very phenomenon AND also commented that M2's were a very good match with M60s or 80s.

After what seems like "decades" of experimentation, my best solution, which I just settled on recently, was one M3 on top of my monitor tilted towards my listening position. It has basically eliminated that 300-500hz emphasis and gives me somewhat more in the low end making voices sound more natural. Believe it or not and in my circumstance anyway, I found the horizontal dispersion of the M3 was more linear than the VP150!

After considerable experimentation AND expense, I believe I have finally found center channel nirvana.

Just for you Fred.

Also see (if your really bored)Comparing Speaker Configurations

Ok time for another installment of Dean needs to get a life.



I just did an A/B/C test of a M80/M22/VP150 center channels and a separate test of Audyssey vs “Pure Audio” or whatever Onkyo calls it.

For the center comparison I turned off Audyssey and set the crossovers of all speakers to 80Hz. My center channel is 10.5’ away and the mains are 11.5’ from the center of my seating. Although I could do a 4-way test with my switch if felt stacking all three speakers would put one of them way to high so I did 2 separate A/B tests sitting in my listening positions with the switch.

First I checked the SPL levels. Using the M80 as reference the VP150 at the same setting was .5dB lower and the M22 was .5dB higher at the sweet spot. Sweeping across all three seats both the M80 and M22 deviated less than .5dB. OTOH, the VP150 deviated in a range of 4dB across all three seats (about 8’ apart). The high point (1dB higher than the sweet spot) was 1’ to the left of the sweet spot while the low point (3dB lower) was in the right seat. The left seat was only (2.5dB lower).

I used all the usual stuff I’m already familiar with (Star Wars III, LOTR FOTR, Jethro Tull Live at Montreux 2003, and a well mastered Juice Newton stage performance). Probably not fair but then it wasn’t a blind test and since I’ve already trained myself on what to listen for I figured it wouldn’t matter. Actually did notice some new things though. As a reference for fidelity I also checked everything on my Sennheiser HD600s.

M80 vs VP150 (horizontal)
Male voices sound deeper (congested or chesty) on the VP150 vs the M80. Very noticeable in at the beginning of Star Wars III when Obi Wan and Anakin are talking to each other from their fighters. Also in LOTR FOTR when entering the Mines of Moria Gandalf is talking while walking off screen right and the pitch of his voice rises. Ironically this “chestyness” sometimes sounds “better” but not true to the source.

The soundstage for the VP150 is wider but less precise than the M80. This can be a nice effect for movies but I found it bad for music. Also something I notice for the first time the VP150 while wider lacked the depth or separation of sounds of the M80. In LOTR FOTR when Galadriel pours water into the “mirror,” on the VP150 I hear it but all the sound…her voice and the water pouring…are coming from the screen and the pouring just sort of tapers off. On the M80 I can hear her talking from the screen while the water pouring is coming from out in front of her voice they way it looks. And instead of the sound sort of tapering off I hear each distinct drop of water along with her voice. Later when the Balrog is rising out of a pit behind the fellowship roaring that’s mostly what I hear on the VP150. On the M80 I can distinctly hear the fellowship’s footfalls and even cloths rustling as they run toward the camera. The best analogy I can make is the difference between watching “The Fifth Element” up-converted vs Blu-ray. The first seems great until you switch to the latter.

Now for the bad news. Moving off center the VP150 became very “phasey” and directional. Sitting in the left or right seat the VP150 sounded like the sounds was coming out of a tunnel focused at the center seat and at the sides I’m just catching what wrapped around the corners. I hate to say it but this is the worst I’ve heard it sound. Not sure why but it never sounded this bad in either room of my apartment. OTOH, the M80 sounded the same across all the seating. Perhaps I’m just getting so use to the M80 center that alternatives are sounding progressively worse by comparison. Another possibility is that during all previous testing I had curtains on the walls. So I will revisit the VP150 center once the curtains are up. I’d be interested in knowing how the VP100 sounds in this regard.

M80 vs VP150 (vertical):
Exactly the same as above except both the “wall-of-sound” effect disappeared and the “phaseyness” was gone when moving off center.

M80 vs M22:
The M22 sounded almost exactly like the M80. The M80 sounds a little fuller in the mid and upper bass while I think the M22 actually does the midrange and highs just a little better than the M80. Maybe just a side effect of lower bass.

Audyssey vs “Pure Audio:”
I was so impressed that Audyssey hadn’t make my speakers sound like crap this time I hadn’t done any serious listening until now. Have to say I like what it’s doing to the spatial nature of surround sound effects and taming the bass. However, I now noticed how much it’s rolling off the top end. There a very noticeable loss of ambiance with Audyssey on vs. off. It also takes a little bit of the edge off when there is sibilance on the recording. However, when comparing the M80s to the HD600s the sibilance is that same.

Conclusions:
The VP150 and Audyssey do not IMO equal high fidelity. While the VP150s wall-of-sound effect has some plusses for spreading out the center channel and the “chestyness” has an appeal…the off center “phaseyness” is a deal breaker. For movies the tonal difference and the less precise soundstage would not likely be noticeable w/o an A/B comparison unless one had already learned what to listen for. However, for music the soundstages of the M80 and M22 are clearly superior to the VP150.

Audyssey definitely helps the surround effects seem more “holographic” and tightened up the bass from my EP500 at the cost of a significant loss of ambience in music.

Cheers,
Dean

Afterthought:
I also compared the M80 crossed at 40Hz (where the receiver set it) to the M22 and VP150 crossed at 80Hz.

Casey, the superior horizontal dispersion of the M3(and other vertical centers)is certainly believable and is one of the things that I've been suggesting for the almost 8 years that I've been here.

Nice report. Thanks again for your time and efforts Dean. I suppose I'll just have to be satisfied (which I am) with my VP150 until such a day comes along that I decide to buy an M3, M22 or M80 (not very likely unless I purchase a new home and do some rearranging of the equipment) and do some of my own A/B tests.

Those of you who have found faults with the VP150 make me wonder, why is it that Axiom put so much time and effort into developing the VP150 if an M3 or M22 does such a better job at handling center channel duties? My only conclusion would be that the masses have developed the mentality that a horizontal center channel configuration is the 'correct' way to do it. So even though that set-up has it's draw backs, Axiom did their best to put out a product that the consumers demanded (the customer is always right after all. Even if countless hours in the listening rooms down at Axiom and other speaker manufacturers have proven other wise!).

So now I'm curious, if I called the sound experts at Axiom and told them I was putting together a HT and wanted the best possible performance no matter which speakers that meant going with, I wonder if they would suggest either of these speakers that Dean and some others have found to be more ideal? In other words, I wonder if Axiom themselves would admit that some of their other speakers do a better job at center channel workhorse than their own purpose built center channel speaker?

There's some truth to that. I'm sure a lot of it IS simply because horizontal centers are what everyone sees, but the reason horizontal centers were made in the first place was so they would fit below the screen. Most people simply don't have a way to accommodate a vertical center, but you have to wonder how many more people would make the space for a vertical center if they knew it would improve the sound.

I fell into groupthink when I purchased my first set of HT speakers from Axiom and just assumed a horizontal center was appropriate. For months I never noticed anything wrong until one day by accident I did. Since then like casey01, and a few others, I’ve discovered no horizontal center that I like. I don’t think it would be so noticeable to me if the M80 and M22 didn’t sound so damn transparent.

I also think it has something to do with people perceptions. I can walk under the nose or climb up in the cockpit of one of our aircraft and know the weather radar is still on by the high pitched warble it makes or that the inertial guidance gyros are still spinning because of their high pitched wine. No one else hears these over the other equipment even when I point them out. I use to always walk point because I could notice things that no one else did.

Before you think this is neat it has a big down side in that I can’t spend much time in busy public places w/o getting a headache and what I call “brain cloud” where it feels like there’s a fog surrounding all my senses. Only way to prevent this is to spike my adrenalin which brings everything into hyper sharp focus at the expense of being exhausting to maintain.

A couple of other ways I’ve found to mitigate this is by running at moderate to high intensity inducing a “runners high.” There’s a certain plant that also accomplishes this w/o all the sweating. I also found that certain anti-histamines tune my senses down. I couldn’t make it through a date in high school w/o taking half a Contact before the date.

I can’t speak for others but in my case I’m clearly abnormal and as most people across all speaker brands have no problems with their center speakers I hope that any casual readers of my posts don’t take my impressions out of context.

Hmmmm.... the only conclusion I've been able to come up with for this one is... garlic?

And they told me it was oregano.

I think I was reading some of your stuff awhile back that made me go with M3's across the front. After having them on their sides for a bit, I've repositioned the L and R speakers and now all are sitting upright...as numerous people here advised me to do from the beginning...

Horizontal dispersion is excellent and the center M3 sounds good at each seat of my sofa.

That is an interesting question. When I was at the Axiom plant to purchase my speakers about 4 years ago, I asked that very question; should I get a VP150 or 2 M2's. The answer I got was I should get 2 VP150's. I told them that I hadn't bugeted for that. They said the VP150 was the way to go. It was designed for that purpose.

I do like my VP150 but will agree that it is the weakest speaker in my HT room for the it's purpose. Again, I am not saying it is week. But I think Dean is right, it's the male voice that sometimes sounds odd, never the female. I used to think had more to do with the actual recording than the speaker, now I am not so sure.

It is interesting, that you can buy an M60 for almost the same price as a VP150. Even thought the VP150 has one more driver, it isn't an M60. For those of us that have projectors and screens or that can accomodate an M60 / 80 center, it might be a good alternative.

paul

When I picked up my system 1.5 years ago, the Axiom experts told me in no uncertain terms that the VP150 would make a better center than an M22 or dual M2s. I agree that the horizontal center has become the agreed way to do things, even if it isn't best.

Dean, its interesting that you think the M22 sounds so similar to the M80 as a center. I came very close to getting a single M22 as a center, but was talked out of it in favour of the dual M2s. Dean has me wondering if I would hear any difference with a single M22.

Dean, the good news on your hearing is that it will dull with old age. I hated big crowds and power tools when I was younger. I found power tools particularly painful to listen to. I still hate big crowds for other reasons, but don't find the noise as bothersome as I used to.

This conversation is quite timely for me. When I finish work today (yeah I'm working now! ), I will be attempting to finish a basement including an HT at my in-laws place over the next 4 days. While building the HT we can either plan for single or dual horizontal centers (above and below screen of course), or plan for say 3 M60's or 3 M80's (or whatever brand they decide on) across the front as LCR's. So apologies for the long post, but here is my understanding of center channels. Please correct me where I may be wrong or misinformed.

1 - Horizontal centers were developed primarily for 'ergonomics' and provide good horizontal sound dispersion (but not necessarily good vertical dispersion)

2 - Three identical LCR speakers oriented similarly will make for the best soundstage if you can make the ergonomics work (i.e. good horizontal and vertical dispersion characteristics)

So if I am correct on this I will try to steer my in-laws towards 3 identical LCR's like M60's or 80's. I think we can build that into a false wall with an acoustically transparent screen.

Please let me know if I am on the right track here. Thanks!!!

A vertical center gives better horizontal dispersion because the tweeters are not interfering with each other in the horizontal plane.

A horizontal center is good enough for most folks, just not the 'HT obsessed'.

I see no one around here that resembles that remark

Since I'm not obsessing here , I just reread this thread and noted that Dean finds the M22 and M80 almost identical as center channels. Interesting. It could be a good way to save a few dollars instead of all M60's or 80's across the front. Of course if we go this way my next step will be asking for acoustically transparent screen recommendations! Not there yet.

Just to play devil's advocate, is there any reason why a horizontal center could be considered better than 3 identical vertical LCR's?

Keep in mind I'm a perfectly happy W150 owner - I just have an open canvas so want to make the best choices for my in-laws as I'll also be watching movies over there.

I’ve also A/B’d them as mains and also found them about 95% similar when both the M80s and M22s are paired with a sub which is why you see me recommend the M22 + sub route so often in other forums. Like Jakewash has said the biggest difference is in the mid to upper bass where the M80s + sub combo has more authority.

I’m intrigued by your dual M2s. It’s my understanding they are also very similar to the M22 and M80. Also based on what I’ve heard I would agree with Axiom’s advice to you to go dual over and under if you can’t get an exact match because of height issues under the screen.

I found that dual M22s above and below gave a vertical wall of sound effect the was very movie theater like w/o horizontal wall of sound effect that mucks up the imaging of the front soundstage.

A single M22 or M80 worked above my screen in the apartment because by placing the centers upside down and the mains on stands I could get the L/C/R tweeters within 6” vertically. Plus the M80 stretched all the way up to the ceiling so it created it’s own vertical wall of sound.

Please note one thing about my present setup in the house. Based on all the experimenting I did the apartment I realized that as, if not more, important than which speakers I used up front was their placement in relationship to the room, screen, furniture and each other. I think Alan’s article on center speaker placement is correct about the importance placement plays on it’s sound especially in relation to the placement of the other speakers It’s working with.

I stayed in that apartment three months longer than I wanted looking for a room with a high enough screen wall to allow me to put all three M80s under the screen size I wanted. And who needs furniture in a living room? It’s just my big honking chairs in here so I have complete flexibility in speaker and seating placement. In turn this allows me to get the best imaging imaginable, something that I don’t doubt accentuates the advantage of using a vertical center. Once I get the curtains up I will start evaluating the use of room treatments as the final step in fine tuning everything. So remember I need make no compromises in either SQ or PQ for esthetics. Though IMO the minimalist look has it’s own esthetic quality.

Cheers,
Dean

I found these articles very informative and useful in helping make my center (and other) speaker decisions.

Surround-Sound Speaker Placement: Problems and Solutions

The Center Channel: Unique and Difficult

Music in the Round #4

Cool, thanks for the links Dean.

IMO unless you have a very large room, listen to lots of 2ch stereo or just won’t buy a subwoofer then bookshelves and subwoofer(s) is the way to go. If you haven’t read the first article I posted above for a better overall explanation than I can give.

As for an AT screen I started out thinking that way but reading posts here steered me away from one. An AT screen will to some degree (maybe not significant for most) limit picture quality and sound quality because of the physical nature of the screen itself. Additionally using an AT screen usually necessitates placing the front speakers in or close to the wall which will also effect their performance. OTOH the nice clean look of an AT screen with the speakers behind it has a quality of it’s own. And I imagine it doesn’t suck to have the sound actually coming right out of the screen like a movie theater.


Except for placement restrictions I cant think of one, but I try to stay open minded.

I would love to arrange for a geeks day at Axiom so we could play with all these combinations as a group.

That would be fun

try 6 m80's as lcr'r behind an at screen, kicks butt!

I would imagine M22's would sound very similar to M80's at center since center channels don't usually carry much bass. All this talk about how placing speakers above the screen screws up the sound stage really has me wondering how mine sounds so good? I wonder if it's because most people who have theirs above the screen have them right above the screen and not close enough to the ceiling to use it's reflections to their advantage? Mine is bolted right to the ceiling and pointed at my head, and honestly with both music and movies I can't tell that the sounds are coming from up there, they seem to come directLy out of the mouths of who ever is onscreen!

And I have tried exhaustively to close my eyes and hear that its coming from my ceiling ever since reading about the problems having your center channel speaker above your screen, and I just can't hear it coming from up there. My only explanation is that where its positioned is reflecting perfectly off of my ceiling to hide its location sonically.

But then again maybe I just don't know what to listen for? I wish I lived closer to some of you fanatics so that I could come listen to your set-ups (expecially when you're doing your A/B experiments!) And you could come listen to mine & pick apart my placement. Although it may be painfull to hear critisism of my system, if it ultimately led to a better sounding set-up (which is hard to imagine åt this point), then it'd be well worth it!

Oh, count me in for geek day at Axiom!!!

I’ve found that having the center speaker up high creates a wall of sound effect that is actually quite pleasant for movies and even some music. Suddenly switching to the level tweeters especially below the screen can sound thin or anemic by comparison. To me the tradeoff is that the height matched (at least close) tweeters of a vertical array can have much better imaging and tonal balance. I say can because proximity to walls, TV screens and anything effecting first reflections can blow the improved imaging all to hell leaving the high mounted center actually sounding better by comparison.

Also as mentioned on at least one of the articles above many sound engineers spread some of the center channel information out to the mains to create a more seamless soundstage and take advantage of the usually better quality of the main speakers.

Part of my test I didn’t mention was popping in the Blu-ray HD audio sampler that came with my Oppo. I don’t care for most of the music but it sounds awesome. I thought this would be the most definitive example of quality audio I could use. I started listening switching back and forth between speakers and couldn’t hear a damn difference, even when I moved off center. So I stuck my ear up to the M80 and all there was barely enough coming out to keep the stereo image from collapsing to the nearest main. I have to say it is a beautifully mastered DVD as it made the front soundstage sound perfect with all three centers.

This brings up another point I should reemphasize. The example I give of sonic differences are things I have found that really highlight them. When testing in my apartment I found that probably 7 out of 10 movies sounded nearly identical with any center speaker which I figured was likely explained by the sound engineer blending the center channel information out into the mains. If you physically disconnect the center while leaving on in the receiver you can hear this better. Learned that trick from John when testing out what PLIIx does with surround sound.

The biggest issue for me using a different center for music is mostly imaging. The tonal differences are usually highlighted when using PLIIx to create the center channel. However, this can be mitigated somewhat by adjusting the “wide” parameter, in effect being your own sound engineer.