I am remodeling my living room, and I'm getting close to needing to pre-run speaker wire. I'm in need of some advice on where I should run it.

I currently have VP150 center, M22's for my front LR, QS4's for the LR Side Surrounds, and M2's for my rear surrounds.

Here is a website I will use to post pictures to:
Living Room Remodel

This is what I am debating:

1) Should I go with a 5.1 setup or a 7.1 setup?
You can see from the site where I am considering placements and my room size.

2) In a 5.1 setup, should I trade up and get the QS8's?

3) In a 7.1 setup, should I go with 4 QS8's or 2 QS8's on the side and use my M2's on the rear surrounds?

I'm sure I'll have more questions in the future, but I wanted to get the post started. Any comments (likes or dislikes) about any of my setup is greatly appreciated!

Thank,s
Andrew

I think you would benefit from 7.1, and the speakers you have are probably sufficient. I think several people go with the QS speakers on the side and a direct speaker in the rear.
If you feel your current speakers are lacking after getting everything hooked up, you could consider getting a pair of QS8's for the side surrounds, and then decide if you like the qs4's or m2's better at the back. Then again, with the rear speakers being up as high as the will be the downward firing QS'8s might be better than the M2's... hmmmm.

I can't comment too much since I only run 5.1 (with QS'8s), so I'll let someone else chime in.

Andrew, you didn't specifically show your planned listening position, but the length of the room indicates that you'll likely have enough room behind you(at least 4')for a good rear sound field to develop. Especially since you already have the M2s, they seem to be a good choice for the back surrounds since there's likely to be enough room(at least 6')to the listening position for the sound to be well spread out.

Awesome pictures! Beautiful home!

As to products, I agree with what David and John said. I

As to placement...

I would seriously consider a FMB or some other tilting bracket for the rear speakers.

I don't think that the placement of the surround (side) speakers would necessarily be different for 5.1 v. 7.1. Their placement should be just behind the listening position in either case. I would not move the surround speakers to the rear corner if going 5.1 as in your illustration.

Since you already have everything, I'd definitely wire for 7.1.

I'm looking forward to future pictures! Enjoy the journey!

Wow, seeing those pictures brings a tear to my eye. Being able to do a room from scratch like that is invaluable, you can't put a price on it. The freedom, the choices, the possibilities... with so many directions in which you can go, it's almost paralyzing!!! Still I'd rather have a room like that with which to work than a fully finished room any day. The only downside to a project like that is that you will invariably end up forgetting to do something, or overlooking something until everything is said and done, and you will hit yourself over the head for not doing it once you realize what it is you've forgotten! The problem is no matter how many times you play it out in your head, it's just not the same as the moment of truth when you're making all of your connections and suddenly you go, "oh damn, I completely forgot about the _ _ _ _ _ _"... and you wonder how you could have been so dim to have missed it!

Still, I say all of this with envy in my heart, as I wish I could have such a project going on right now. As much satisfaction as enjoying a finished project brings, for me 2/3rds of the fun is the journey. So savor these next few weeks and months, these are the good times!

And personally, 7.1 would be the way I'd go.

Thank you for the replies!

I agree, I will go with the 7.1 setup.

Where should I place the side surrounds in relation to the listening area? Directly to the side or back a little bit. And what about the rear surrounds?

Thanks for the advice. When I get more pictures, I'll post them. And I will have some questions about the sub, receiver, and fronts soon:)


Micah: I am hoping by getting y'all's input early and often, I can avoid that that "oh crud" moment:) I'm doing my best to enjoy the project; however, living in the house during the remodel gets really old! Not to mention I still have holes into my attic and it's supposed to be -3 on Thursday:(

In a 7.1 setup the side surrounds should be directly to the side of the listening position, since they don't need to help supply a rear sound field. The back surrounds should generally be spread about as far as they're behind the listening position, but also at least enough so that the listeners have one behind them to their left and one to their right(i.e., wider than the width of the listening position).

I (and Dolby) say the surrounds (sides) should go directly to the left and right of the seating position. That's fine, if you're always going to be using a 7.1 mode (like Dolby Prologic IIx, or DTS NEO:6). If you'll be playing 5.1 content without the rear surround steering, I'd say place the surrounds slightly behind the listing position. But if you don't mind the expansion provided by Dolby or DTS, then having the surrounds lined up with your ears really does work best.

The rear surrounds should be placed just beyond the edges of your listening area. But it's more about angles between speakers than distances.

Dolby has a pretty good, interactive guide on their site:
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/setup/speaker-setup-guide/

EDIT: Heh, John was typing while I was finding Dolby's setup guide. But yeah, we agree.

Andrew whenever we built our room and determined where the seating placement was going to be, I used Alan's 'Guide to Home Theatre Layout' (Dolby Digital EX/Dolby Pro LogicIIx/7.1) article and diagram for correct placement of all speakers, Sharpied my beloved garage stool with the ranges marked using a protractor, placed the stool in the sweet spot and with the help of a laser pin-pointer I then marked the unfinished wall where each speaker would be placed in the room.

That's genius.

I have my moments Ken.

How come when I was there you didn't show me your "genius stool"?

(I was going to leave off the word "genius", but that was just too weird)

Thinking by the seat of his pants....

Andrew,

Are you set on a TV or are you considering projection? Not that it matters to where you mount your surrounds, but it will matter to what wire you will need to pull before the rock goes up.

Personally I would run conduit for all possible options. It’s easier to not use it than to want it after the fact. A lot of folks (the vast majority) just staple wire. I try to convince them to run conduit, but they usually don’t. I’ll suggest the same to you. It’s easy, cheap and fast and you will always be able to pull in new or different wire as needed. I would run 1.5” or larger to a future (used or not used) location for the projector in the ceiling, and run ¾ to all the possible speaker locations. No need to run rigid conduit either. Non-metallic flexible conduit it what I’d use. It’s commonly referred to as “smurf tube” by tradesmen. You cut it with a pocket knife and all the boxes use snap connections.

Regardless to whether you run conduit or not, I’d still get wires in the walls / ceilings to all possible locations. I’d run two separate wires to locations for the center channel. One above the display and one under. I’d run wires for height channels above the display on the front wall and I’d also run wires for width channels, half way between your mains and side surrounds at floor level. You side surrounds, as already mentioned, should be perpendicular to your main listening position up to 15 deg behind. The rears go to the back wall. You surrounds should be between five feet off the floor and the ceiling. You will also want to run coax to several locations throughout the room. You just won’t know where to put the sub till after all your furniture is placed. It’s better to have several jacks to plug into all over the place than to have to run wire under rugs. You may end up wanting to run more than one sub too, and this will help.

Also, make sure you run a dedicated home ran 20 amp circuit to the equipment location. Make sure that either you or your electrical contractor home run this to the panel and do not share a neutral with any other circuit. I would also install a receptacle near the projector. Run the conductors for this receptacle to the equipment receptacle. You can then either tie this receptacle to the same circuit as the 20 amp home ran circuit, or, you can make up a plug and extension cord from this box and plug it into a surge protector or UPS at the equipment location.

I really dislike people who are smarter than I.

No wonder you were such a jerk to me when I visited.






Just kidding. Jack was a fantastic host.

Can't remember exactly how this goes but,

Catbert: I think I'd like to start participating in Internet chat groups but I'm not sure if I will sound intelligent enough.

Catbert: I know, let's have a look at what the intelligent people are saying.

Catbert: I'm in!

Mark my best thoughts come from the seat of my pants because that, according to my lovely wife ... is exactly where my head is 95% of the time.

Do you have to do stretches before you get it there?

Oh, too bad it's not Guinness... then I'd have one also!

Michael_D makes some very good points. One thing I would add to his advice is to make it at least two 20 amp circuts run to the new room. One or two to the location of the AV equipment, and another one to the location of the TV. Electronics add up FAST!!! I ran two separate 20 amp circuts to my AV closet and I'm considering at least two more. Subwoofers and amps suck power in a hurry. If you go with fancy track lighting or pot lights, they can start to add up fast as well. And like he was saying, it's better to have and not need, than to need and not have. And now is definately the time to do it.

So try to add up all the electronics you know you'll be using in there, and then future proof it by adding an extra circut or two on top of what you know you'll need. Who knows what right around the corner after all? You might have twice as many electronic gizmo's plugged into that room in the next five years!

I'd argue by saying that electronics is getting greener and more efficient but I don't want to be remembered in history along side the guy that said offices will soon be paperless.

How do you want to be remembered in history, Murph?

Surely not as a Simpsons-style avatar.

you should go 7.1, I recommend a back layout similar to mine (correspond to the pink location in your drawing)

link

m22 for such a big room? you'll probably want to upgrade (go straight to m80 when you can afford it)

Since you already have m2, I would put them on the side location and use the QS4 in the back. The wide angle is more helpful in the back than on the side. Put the m2 at the right angle, make sure they point directly at the center of the sitting area.

When you'll be all set and want to get good sound, plan for power amps.

I know your receiver can't take advantage of it, but in case you decide to upgrade: how about running some conduit for WIDE and HEIGHT speakers?

A very profound question Tom. I'm honestly not sure.

My Mom keeps telling me that I was born for some great purpose in life because my name came to her in a dream where it suddenly appeared on a big white fluffy cloth "like a towel". I have yet do live up to her laundry induced expectations.

Touche!

Although, I am very proud of our Simpsons style family portrait.

Heh heh heh heh... Check and mate.

And the story behind that is ???

Long story and most people cut me off in disbelief but if you have time for a story Grandpa Simpson would be proud of and since work is literally so slow I'm completely bored since Christmas....

A longggggg time ago, maybe 97ish or so because it was not long after I bought my first sea kayak, I was paddling just off of Robinson's Island, which creates a nice protective bay off my house, I met a guy named Mike (No not Matt)on the tiny island's ocean side beach who was having a hard time launching in the bit of surf that was on. His significant other or friend (never did become clear) had given up and was sitting on the shore while Mike was going to paddle back to the Outfitters about a km further back for help and admit that they lied about their paddling experience.

I was/am friends with the particular outfitter and I knew he'd totally freak out as he is normally extremely paranoid about 'renting' vs. selling guided tours. So, I tried to think of a better solution to save them some nasty, albeit well deserved wrath.

Because they were on the narrow point of sand extending out to a small channel with a sandy barachois on the other side, I offered to help them carry their kayaks over the sand to the protected bay side where they could launch without any waves bothering them. It would then be a simple matter for them to leave out through the channel and pretty much avoid the small but frothy waves that were breaking on the shoreline only.

They thought this was a great idea and he even convinced his partner to paddle around some more in the protected bay. I stuck around and played tour guide for a bit after deciding I had better hang out until they managed the eventual ocean section again, back to the Outfitters. It was a sunny Sunday afternoon so this suited me quiet fine.

By the time we looped around past my place, we had shared a lot of laughs. Mike's partner was quiet (cold I think) but Mike was extremely witty and had a lot of funny stories about all the local mannerisms he observed during their stay. Slow drivers, directions involving building descriptions instead of street names, driving his BMW convertible too close behind a manure spreader, etc. Anywhoo, I felt comfortable enough with them to invite them up the bank for a hot drink. His friend says yes almost before I finished my sentence.

He met my wife and we all had a great chat over tea and coffee on the deck. He was on vacation and had been visiting some family in Massachusettes (I think) when they decided they would drive up the eastern coast into Canada for something to do. He asked for my address (old fashioned mail address back then) as he wanted to stay in touch and send a thank you. Nobody ever actually does stay in touch in these situations but I thought sure, why not.

To shorten the story up, I paddled him back to North Rustico and said goodbye. They were late for their rental return by now but I called my friend before leaving the house and told him that they were safe at my place and made sure they didn't get charged a late return fee.

About 6-7 weeks later I got a letter from Mike thanking me for my help and the hospitality and he said he would really enjoy having a photograph of Sharon and I sent to him for collection of vacation pictures. It just so happened that earlier that summer we had a friend take professional photos of us and the dog at the close to the very same beach. We sent him one and that was that.

Several months later, I received a package in the mail. It contained a matted Simpson version of the photo we had sent off. I thought my brother, another avid Simpson fan must have had it made. Then I noticed the signature. Now very puzzled, I looked at the return address again. It was from a Mike in California which made no sense as I had already pretty much forgotten about kayaker Mike and I don't know if he ever mentioned where he was actually living.

It was Sharon who made the connection around the name. Then the lightbulb came on but how and why and could it be real??? I VCRed the next weekly episode of the Simpsons so I could check the credits to see if he could possibly have been crew or something to have a connection to THE Matt Groening. Well it didn't take very long to see his name pop up because we immediately saw "Episode written by Mike Scully and....".

I think he later went on to become Executive producer. We wrote a very HUGE thank you letter back to him but the letter was returned to us with a "no such resident at address" type stamp. I suspect he moved or being a psuedo-celebrity, decided it unwise to use a real return address. Can't remember if it was the same one I sent the photo too. I never heard from him again.

I should also mention that the Simpson style picture even included our cat, which had taken a shining to him. This was pretty impressive because the cat was not in the original photograph.

To be totally honest, this could also be a cleverly concocted fake by my brother who was getting revenge for a prank a couple of years earlier when the computer company I worked for got one of the first color printers around and I used it to fake a "Ren and Stimpy" return fan mail letter to him including a very impressive, (for the time) signed, Glossy photo of the cartoon duo. He knew it was some kind of a joke but figured that someone wrote a fan club letter on his behalf but in any case, he was so proud of it that he had it framed and put on the wall of the house he shared with some school room mates. He was pretty miffed when I finally spilled the beans.

However, the story of helping a Mike Scully from the US is a true one but it might have been a coincidence and my brother, being a much bigger Simpsons fan than even me at the time just might have recognized the name and devised the entire plot using some mutual friends we have in Santa Barbara.

He denies it to this day and I enjoy believing that it just might be authentic.

Awesome story, Andrew!

Sorry I haven't had a chance to PM you back... it requires some digging and I'm waiting for things to get quieter later.........

PS- I thought it was just a website to "turn your pic into a cartoon" type-thing.....

Digging? Quieter? Suspensful use of periods?

Urk, I better go back and see what i wrote in there. LOL!

That's a darn cool story Murph!

Thanks for sharing that story, Murph!

cool story.

On the surrounds, I have heard putting the M2's on side by some and in the rear by others? What are the pros/cons of those placements?

Also, would I notice a difference in upgrading all 4 of the surround speakers to QS8's?

I have seen a couple posts about prewiring for Heigh and Width speakers... I have not heard of this before. Is there a lot of movies that support that many channels?

In general, based on my room size, what fronts would y'all put in? I currently have m22's, and they would fit great in the entertainment center I'm going to build, but some seemed concerned about their size for this space.

How important is the seating distance from the speakers? My room is 18' deep; however I will be sitting about 10 to 12' from the tv and the fronts.

Don't forget to thank the catalyst!

j/k

Great story, Murph!

Andrew, I think the Height and width channels (supported in the denon 4310 and other receivers) are simply utilized by audyssey. There are no dvds that I am aware of that actual have sound specifically for these channels. Instead audyssey somehow magically extracts bits and pieces from other channels perhaps and plays them through these channels... I am not sure of the details. I wouldn't worry too much about running speaker wire for these if you don't think you will ever use it.

Andrew, there aren't any movies at this time which have discrete height or width channels. Receivers which have those features process content in the regular channels which is considered to be suitable for the height or width speakers, extract it and send it to those speakers.

Generally, if both QS and direct surrounds are used, the QSs are better placed as side surrounds to take advantage of their wider dispersion. On some material the more specific placement of direct speakers is better for effects meant to be heard from the back.

The M22s should be fine for a 10' listening distance in your size room. A room doesn't have to be "filled" with sound at your preferred level; that's only needed at your listening position. The listening distance should be equal to or slightly greater than the separation of the front speakers.

I believe it's real, too.

Wow, it's amazing how important background stories can be. Here all this time I just thought you were a bit of an over zealous Simpson's fan who thought it'd be cool to use a picture from the show (I'm not a big enough fan to realize that picture isn't actually from the show) in his avatar. But to my surprise you're not a nerd at all, you're simply the victim of a punk gag your brother played on you that you've fallen so hard for that he now has you telling the internet world about it! He must be pissing his pants in laughter!!!

Haha, nah I'd bet it's real too. How big is the picture anyway? It's too bad you didn't get any pictures of them while they sat on your pourch sipping tea and coffee eh? One question, you mention a 'partner' in a way that suggests two men who seemed very fond of eachother. So fond that you couldn't tell forsure if they were just really close friends, or indeed life partners. Is there any knowledge of the Mike you suspect him to be as being openly gay? If so, that could very well give a lot of credit to the possibility of the painting being real indeed!

Awesome story and an awesome picture. Looks very real to me and regardless it's a great keepsake.