Greetings everyone, newbie here so please be gentle.

I seek some feedback, advice, and opinions please regarding my home theatre setup. My wife does not like playback to be very loud but I like to hear as much detail as possible. I am considering two M80's and a single VP150 for my LCR channels (already have sub & surrounds).

1. Will I hear more detail at LOW volumes going with the M60/VP100 or M60/VP150 combo instead?

2. Will an external amp give me more detail at LOW volumes over a Denon 3808?

3. Will an external amp give me better sound and/or more detail over a Denon 3808 regardless of volume?

4. I like my centre to match as closely to the mains as possible, but the VP150 doesn't, on paper at least, look like it can keep up with two M80's. I'm using a front projector and would get a third M80 for my centre if I could, but would need to lie it down on its side under the screen. Any ideas how that might sound?

5. Alternatively, I'm considering two VP100's or two VP150's stacked on top of each other under the screen (unable to mount one above the screen). Any comments on how that may sound?

6. Lastly, I'm also considering two M22's side by side under the screen. Any opinions on how that might work out?

Which of the options do you think would sound best? Am I crazy to even consider this?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

1. From what we know around here, M80s are better for low level listening. I'm in the same boat you are, and that's what I use.

2. Dunno. Love to know.

3. Dunno. Love to know. Also: highly disputed.

4. Unless you're running at (very) high volume, the VP150 will be just fine with the M80s. Much better than sideways M80, which has been reported to be quite poor.

5. I wouldn't bother, not at the levels you're going to be listening.

6. see above.

Hmmmm. The M80s play very clear and detailed at any volume and would likely have an edge over the 60s at lower volumes. I've not heard the M60s before but I've read from other members who have compared the two, that the 80s give you a little 'more' in the mids and highs. If you consider using an M80 as a centre, it shouldn't be laid on it's side due to the dispersion characteristics of the speakers. If you don't have room for an upright M80, an M22 would probably work here.

It sounds as if you're going to be listening to your system at somewhat restrained levels, so the 3808 would probably give you as much power as you'll want.

I've never heard of anyone stacking two centre channels above one another as you've described. I'm pretty sure it's not advisable though.

Even M22's across the front LCR combined with a decent sub would sound excellent. Some guys here are running systems close to what you're describing, maybe they'll jump in.

Thanks kcarlile, glad to hear the M80's are the way to go.

I forgot to mention that although my wife likes it moderate to moderately quiet, I like it LOUD and will do so when I am alone and/or with friends.

Thanks Adrian, I will be going with the M80's then. As above, I do play LOUD when my wife's not around so I do want a centre channel and/or amp that can keep up.

How loud is LOUD? 80+dB? 90+dB? 100+dB?

dB as in deci-beer? That would make sense. I know a lot of people who are getting loud after 80-90 deci-beers (or 6 pints for people not using the metric system).

LOL, well it seems loud to my wife anyways. It's been a while since I actually measured it, but I recall 90-95dB is what I normally like to start out at.

LOL, tell me about it. Sometimes I need to crank it up just to drown them out.

1. M80 over M60 for the same reasons others posted.
2. No.
3. Not until the 3808 runs out of power and that will be at very, very loud levels unless you have a huge room.
4. From what I understand, the vp100/150 will keep up just fine. A single M80 would be your best choice (perfect match) if it would fit.
5. I don't think there would be any advantage to stacking centers under the screen.
6. Don't know, but I bet a single M22 would work just fine. I can't think of any advantage to dual M22s


Nah, just an audioholic.

Thanks fredk, I think my mind is being put to rest with all of the reassurances of the VP150 holding its own and the M80 still sounding detailed at low volumes.

It still would be interesting though to see what results I get with stacked VP150's and/or M22's. Oh the curiosity...

Nut, welcome. Clearly no on 2. and 3. As to 4.- 6., a single vertical M22 should be excellent and should be at least tried. If more volume capability is needed you can add a second one later.

Thanks JohnK! The M22 has me intrigued because of the tremendous feedback I hear & read from those who have tried and/or own them. It'd be interesting to compare it to a VP150.

Thanks Dr.House. My room is 3500cu ft. and I do like to listen loud, although my wife likes to listen at moderate levels, thus the need to cover both ends of the spectrum.

With your room size despite what the others say you might indeed need/want an external amp. It truly does depend on the levels you listen at but at high levels it's not unreasonable to believe one could tax the power a receiver can deliver.

You can always start with 3808 and see if it provides what you want. The great thing is you can use the pre-out section of the 3808 and add a 2 channel external amp for the mains to upgrade any power requirements you might demand.

htnut, just so you know I tried 2-M22's and if you get the spacing right they sound good for me about 3 1/2 ft apart. Then I ran just one of them and it was loud enough by itself. Seeing how the VP150 is a 6ohm speaker it should play louder than one M22. Just my 2cents have a good one.

If you have a 3808 as I do, you should be using Audyssey's Dynamic Volume and night or evening mode. That way you still get great dynamics and don't wake up the family. An external amp or dual centers will not give you this.

Thanks wid, I think you're right but I was also curious if I would notice any difference with an external amp when I'm NOT taxing the receiver. I think the consensus is no at this point, which is good news for my wallet.

I think I may just do that. The M80's seem pretty efficient too.

Thanks Gieseman for sharing your experience. Did you not notice any other benefit using two M22's instead of one? I suppose not since you ended up going with one. I would've expected two speakers would give you a wider / bigger listening area.

Thanks sirquack, I had forgotten all about Dynamic Volume and night mode! I will set those accordingly.

Nut, a few comments on your replies. Yes, it was understood that you were speaking of the usual situations where the power capabilities of your receiver wouldn't be exceeded. In those situations more than a mere "consensus" is involved; there's no factual basis(shown in properly controlled double blind tests)for claims that separate amplifiers would be audibly different. The fairly widespread audio mythology to the contrary is simply that: a mythology.

Although volume leveling processing can be useful at times(e.g., late at night or suddenly loud commercials), even a sophisticated application such as Audyssey's Dynamic Volume shouldn't be used as standard practice, since some dynamics are lost. I always use Audyssey Dynamic EQ, but rarely have the need for Dynamic Volume.

As to the dual center speaker arrangement described by Gieseman(Mike Drew has a similar one), it may have some benefits, but the single M22 should be tried first. In this connection a recent post by Ian is of interest. Although the point under investigation there in the double blind testing was the fear that comb filtering was very harmful when more than one speaker was playing the same sound, the results are clearly applicable to two center speakers which of course are playing the same center channel sound.

What exactly does the audysssey dynamic EQ do?

Thanks JohnK for the info, You're right, I keep seeing claims of better separation and clarity when using external amps on some speakers and that has be doubting myself since I'm no expert.

Yes, Dynamic EQ is what I meant. I don't use Dynamic Volume since I only watch movies and no TV on the system.

If using two M22's does not yield an appreciably more enjoyable experience for me then I'll likely stick with just one M22 or just one VP150.

[quote=terzaghi]What exactly does the audysssey dynamic EQ do? [/quote

Somone correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC it's supposed to bring out the dynamics of a soundtrack more effectively when listening at low to moderate levels. I don't know if they simply boost the bottom and top ends or what, but I've been messing with it and, for me, I like it much better ON. Apparently it turns itself off once a high enough volume is reached.

David, it compensates for low sound levels in two ways: 1)it continually adjusts the relative bass and treble levels to compensate for the lower sensitivity of the ear to the lowest bass and highest treble as sound levels decrease; 2)it increases the level of the surrounds relative to the mains as sound levels decrease, so that the surround effect isn't diminished.

What's up nut...

Ok so you're interested in an external amp eh? Well forsure you should just get (or do you already have?) the Denon 3808 and see what that bad boy has to offer. You will most likely be very satisfied. I ran my M80's for a little over a month using my Denon 4802 and was extremely happy with it, 98% of the time. I too enjoy VERY loud music/movies at times. Not all the time, but I have my moments. And I have a lot of space to fill (10,000+ cubic feet), so my Denon did run out of steam when the volume was being fully explored. But up until then, it did a fantastic job!

As for low volume level listening... I have to admit that when I first hooked the Emotiva up, I thought it sounded better at ALL volumes, and I got on here and declared my opinion. What I did not take into account is that when you're listening to speakers being run with a 300 watt amp at say -25, it's louder than the 125 watt internal amp of my Denon at -25. I didn't really realize this for a while, so my comments on how much better it sounded even at lower levels may have been a little bit misleading. To be fair I would have to go about it in a double blind test, with the levels calibrated the same and everything, before I could truthfully say whether or not it sounded any better at lower volumes. But when you think about it logically, 50 watts should sound like 50 watts, right?

Ok so what about the top end? Well in a room my size, when you're really wringing the two amps (Denon vs Emotiva) out for all their worth, the Emotiva definately runs the M80's better! The M80's are designed to handle 300 watts after all, and 300 watts fills my room at 80% better than 125 watts could at 98% (I never did go 100% with the Denon... it just seemed like something was about to break?). BUT, your room is... what, 3500 cubic feet? So it's of my opinion that the 3808 should take you wherever you need to go without any problems what-so-ever.

And if it doesn't, well you can always add an outboard amp later using the pre-out section of the 3808. So rest easy my man.

FWIW, I think it's a great feature to have.

Thanks Micah, I had no idea different powered amps would produce different sound levels at the same -25 setting. That would explain what I've been reading about then.

Man, that is a HUGE room you have! No way I'm going to need that much power. My pocketbook (and wife LOL) will be thrilled.

Like JohnK, I don't have Dynamic Volume on all the time, only ocasionally at night when the rest of the family are trying to sleep. It is NOT, just for TV shows, and works wonderful for movies as well. Even Night mode does a great job and does NOT sacrifice the detail of the movie, or at least your ears won't notice and your family will be able to rest, which was what you questioned.

Cool, I may have to consider buying the feature pack upgrade for my 3808 so I can use the dynamic EQ feature... sounds pretty helpful. I haven't done it yet because I haven't used audyssey a whole lot and I am not sure what I think about paying $100 for something that I don't know if I will really notice a difference.

Dynamic Volume comes in handy here and there, but Dynamic EQ is left on all the time and, in my opinion, makes a vast improvement.

With a room like yours, you need all the help you can get.

Awwwww Peter ... dat'snaw right.

Thanks for sticking up for me, Rick!

No, this is one thing that unrelated to my room: As I've posted in the past, I just miss those old "loudness" buttons that cause low volumes to not sound "full".

OK, I gotta be that bastard: Can someone explain what the difference is between Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ?

Dynamic Volume is an over-all effect, for sound levels. It adjusts the dynamic range to keep the listening level constant.

Dynamic EQ changes different parts of the audio spectrum by different amounts. So when you turn down the volume the bass is not cut by the same amount as the treble, and the surround speakers also receive less attenuation.

Most everyone who likes Audyssey, likes what Dynamic EQ does. Dynamic Volume has less people voting for "always leave it on". I believe even Audyssey turns on EQ by default, but leaves Volume off.

Dynamic Volume only changes the dynamic range. The flockharting of frequencies is not changed. By compressing the loudest-to-softest volume dynamics, it's helpful to even out those too-loud commercials or to let you watch a movie at night where, for example, it will make an explosion 6dB louder than the dialog instead of the usual 20dB louder. In other words, it promotes marital peace when one person is more of a late-night person than the other.

Dynamic EQ does two things: At lower volumes, it boosts the bass frequencies and the treble frequencies. This gives even lower-level listening the "fullness" and "clarity" that listening at higher volumes offers. The second thing it does is to boost the surround channels a bit, again, at lower volumes, to help prevent the surround stuff from getting too soft and "lost". Both of these things are applied dependent upon the volume: the lower the volume goes, the more effect is applied.

As I mentioned above, I use dynamic volume here and there as needed depending upon the source and how late at night it is, but I leave the Dynamic EQ on all the time, since it doesn't come into play at anything but low volumes where, in my opinion, it's needed to prevent the sound from getting "thin" and "anemic" sounding.

Well, my response was slow!

Slow? I think you took the extra time to copy my work.

Dude, I didn't need you this time, but YOU would be the person I'd sit next to during all the big tests...

It was just funny how similar our answers were. Even the 3 paragraph structure.

The only difference is, Mark's answer came from "inside the box".

...and mine was inside my head?

Unless you have a Borg-room.

I'll throw my 2cents out there as I have done some testing with my M80s and an external amp with the 3808.

I could hear a difference when running the external amp and the 3808 vs. the 3808 alone. I was using Axiom's A1400 and when calibrated to the same SPL levels I could hear the details better, bass had more punch/fullness and the highs were more detailed when running with the A1400. Now my low volume was 65-70db any lower than that and the differences were MUCH harder to hear, if any at all, but as the volume increased the A1400 really shined, YMMV .

I would say run with the 3808 for awhile and see if you think the extra money for the exteranl amp(s) is worth spending money on. I know if I ever have enough spare change I am going to be buying an external amp some day but till that day comes I am not worrying about running with only my 3808, it still sounds ~95% as good IMO.

So far as the center channels go, running 3 speakers the same across the front is best, next would be some other vertical center that nearly matches the mains and lastly would be a horizontal design. I have done some rudimentary testing with my M80s, VP100, VP150, M22s and even a M60. I liked my M80s with the M60 the best, I never had an opportunity to run a third M80 which would, I suspect, be even better IMO . I have run dual M22s as a center but situated to the sides of the screen and I wouldn't recommend this as the nearest speaker to the listener is where the center dialogue comes from and not from the center of the screen. Dual centers work when run above and below the center of the screen.

So far as the idea that the VP series can't keep up, well that is a matter of opinion and what you expect out of the center. The VP series works extrememly well for what they were designed for, HT use and mostly dialogue. For full range listening as in multichannel music, the VP series still works well but you can tell it isn't the same as the M80s but this is getting extremely nit-picky, I believe most people wouldn't notice the difference.

Thanks jakewash for your feedback. At this point I can't really justify the $ for an amp given the responses I've received from you and all the other kind Axiom owners. Guess I just got caught up in all this stuff like a kid in a candy store.

It is easy to to forget the law of diminishing returns when you are looking for audio eutopia, I still get caught up in looking for the next peice of the puzzle