I wasn’t sure if anyone else had seen this yet

2009 Consumer Excellence Award Winners

And that was probably the old amp....

I think that is the description from the Axiom product page as well...

Yup, it is, 'cause I wrote it back when we introduced the EP800.

Thanks to grunt for the post. You beat me to it!

Regards,
Alan

Audioholics hasn't even done a full review of the EP800 yet, have they?

I think it's very misleading for them to parrot the description from any manufacturer's website. They review equipment and I took it as part of their review (assuming they did review it). They sure make it look like it is an opinion from a review.

Audioholics has really gone down the tubes since they started selling stuff.

they tanked way before sales Ken.......

So, what is it? A review? An advertisement? An Advertorial?

And Alan is proud that his text ends up word for word as a review.

Hardly a review. It's an award. The issue is not that the EP800 got an award or that Alan's text is in the article, it's that it's not cited as such.

2 x 6,

I am not "proud" that my text was used from the press release. I was astonished, in fact. I was surprised that the text was clearly lifted totally from the press release, which is considered simply lazy editing.

Normally, in journalism, an editor re-writes a product's press release even for use in a "New Products" section, partly to remove any hyperbole and to keep the style of a magazine.

Wow tough critics here. Its apparent most of the critics haven’t read our criteria for this type of award. It's not based on us reviewing the gear. No we haven't yet reviewed the EP800 but I did get a chance to hear it at my last On-Location tour and I liked what I heard.

The Audioholics Consumer Excellence award is based on manufacturers submitting their entries and my review staff reviewing the submitted entries and comparing products of each genre with respect to features, value and product purpose. EHX, CEDIA, CNET and many other magazines/organizations do the very exact thing only they aren’t as upfront about it as we are.

We do have a Product of the Year award as well which is based on staff picks of what we felt were the best products we reviewed that particular year.

As for Alan's comments about us being lazy lifting his text, perhaps you should blame Peter Bell or Ian for providing us the product summaries and details during the entry process which we used to post the winners for.

If Axiom and others aren't happy with us picking their subwoofer for the award, we can very easily retract it if that makes everyone feel better.

Sincerely;
Gene DellaSala
President, Audioholics.com

Cain't we all just git along?

I have egg wipes if anyone needs them.

While I see your point, Gene, I think it would look better from a journalistic standpoint to say something like, "From the manufacturer:" before using a quote.

I wrote about 70% of this article since most of the manufacturers didn't provide the info we required and I had to dig for it. I thought I did edit and summarize the info that was supplied by Axiom. They supplied a lot of details relating to the product which was really convenient for me. I will go an edit the text to make it CLEAR that their claims are not verified by us.

Honestly I thought by now people could differentiate between our typical 5-10k word reviews with measurements compared to a 2-3 sentence for a promo that we gave an award to. I guess its bad to make assumptions.

Thanks for the insight, Gene. For the record, I wasn't being critical at all, just merely pointing something out.

I will say that I do have respect for you guys (not that I didn't before) after reading your review of the Lexicon BD-30 and pointing out that it is a shell around the Oppo BDP-83; a very truthful review. Especially since I just stumbled across this review of the exact same player. Only difference is, they apparently aren't being truthful, giving it accolades and deeming it worthy of its inflated price, which clearly is just for the name.

Kudos to you guys.

It's amazing to see how many people dont' realize that Audioholics is one of the few magazine that actually does real reviews, not copy paste reviews like other online and regular magazines.

It should be a happy moment that an award was won and it should be celebrated.

If the manufacturers themselves provided and allowed the information to be published, that should be enough since it's not an editorial just an article to "name" the winners.

Congratulations to Axiom for the award!

Wow, I would have made sure to explain what the CE awards meant in the first post if I’d realized no one knew or didn‘t understand the lead-in to the article. And here I though I needed to get out more.

Thanks for the clarification, Gene.

Hey Gene don't sweat it, we're all deserving of criticism from time to time, it's what keeps us on our toes.

I noticed it as soon as I saw the quote Grunt threw up on here, I thought, "wow, looks like a cut and paste job from the EP800 product page"... then when I clicked on the link it said, "according to Axiom".... and then the quote began. I don't know if that's what it originally said, or if you went back and edited it, but those three words were sufficient to inform the reader that this was not in fact a review by you, but Axiom's opinion. And that's good enough for me.

I read a TON of motorcycle magazine's, and when an edition comes out with a new bike that they haven't had time to test themselves they will often times quote the press release from the manufacturer... but they let you know that, and they say, "we'll have a full review next issue" or some such acknowledgement that these are not necessarily their opinions of the bike. And that's all we ask for. Certainly with all the new products that come out every year, there's no way an e-zine like yours can review all of them. And just because you weren't able to review a certain product I don't feel should exclude it from any awards it might deserve.

But understand we just went through a big thread about this sort of "lazy journalism" a week or so ago. So right now we're all very hip to it, and that sort of stuck out like a sore thumb... I agree, it looked like that very thing to me when I read it as well. And you have to understand here in the Axiom community we don't lambast others for such a thing and look the other way if it's an Axiom product. No no, Axiom is held to even higher standards than their competition around here. There aren't many bigots around this forum.

A product forum that keeps it's own product in check... now that's refreshing, eh?

Gene,

You are a great service to the audio industry and to this day Audioholics offers some of the most technical and in-depth reviews from an objective and subjective standpoint. Not many other places take apart the product, do extensive measurements and provide a subjective opinion without adding any BS.

As to "audioholics going down the tubes" is simply not true . I am interesed how one can come to that conclusion? Their reviews are better than ever and YES products that are sold in their store are held to their same review standards and do get CRITIZED (OPPO SE is latest example).

I missed that one too. I thought that this was the Best product of the year stuff and was left scratching my head.

That said...

"The prestigious Audioholics Consumer Excellence (CE) Awards program ..."

1. its based on what manufacturers submit
2. its based on a read of the specs.

I'm not sure how that makes these awards prestigous. I guess Audioholics can be forgiven a little puffery, but still, as you can see from Genes responses here, its not usually their style.

There is a little more to it than that:
http://www.audioholics.com/news/industry-news/2009-consumer-excellence-awards

I didn't read anything in Alan's post to indicate that.

Did you expect anything less?

"According to Axiom" and "is said" was adequate to inform me of the origin of the comments.

Thank you for the link Gene. Maybe I'm just not enough of an AV geek to recognize how most of these products push the envelope.

As far as I remember, those are the edits made after our earlier comments.

Who was the runner-up? Then we can make an informed decision on whether to be upset or not. Seriously, though, don't take your ball and go home. Thanks for addressing the criticism.

Hi all,

We are delighted that Audioholics gave us the award and while Gene did visit Axiom and hear the EP800, as he pointed out, the award should not be misinterpreted as a review. Magazines, web sites, and Electronics Shows give out design innovation-type awards every year.

Incidentally, the EP800 indeed does everything claimed in the copy I wrote, which my colleague Peter submitted to Audioholics. I've submitted similar text in applications for other awards, including the annual Consumer Electronics Association show in Las Vegas, which hands out annual design innovation awards based on novelty of design and execution.

Regards,

Alan

I actually still think many of the original criticisms of the article or announcement were warranted. I will admit that I did not study the article, but based on my relatively quick read of the article and the link to the criteria for judging, one could very easily interpret the article as indicating some testing of the products at issue. I in fact would have interpreted it as such as it was originally posted. (And, I basically read and interpret things for a living.) "According to Axiom" at the beginning fixes that problem for the Axiom discussion, but it appears that was not originally in the article. Also, they did not make a change for any other product, which makes things even more troubling. It now even more strongly implies that the other products actually were tested because they don't have the caveat. I also wonder at the motivation of just adding the caveat to the Axiom description.

I don't have an opinion generally about Audioholics. I have looked at the site on a few occassions, and found it helpful, but I am not an audiophile by any stretch. I'm sure I'll continue to periodically read articles there, I'll just be more circumspect about what I am reading.

I don't want to detract from the award or lead to any ill will toward Axiom. I am, after all, just someone who bought some of their speakers and enjoys the forum. But, it is perfectly fair to comment on public articles. I think it is particularly fair to "review" the "reviewers," and it is then fair for them to defend themselves.

Without getting into a pissing contest that will serve absolutely no value by sighting examples, we all have our opinions. You have stated yours, I have stated mine. Your comments are based off your opinion, and perception of the truth, as are mine.

There was a time I frequented Audioholics. That’s how I ended up here six or seven years ago. I enjoyed the sight, the forums, the atmosphere, the reviews and the information. Not real sure when it happened, but a few years ago I stopped visiting / reading. The general atmosphere had changed and I found the information on the sight to be misleading with what I felt was a clear bias to advertiser’s product in the reviews. It has been about two years since I’ve bothered to spend any time or even click on the link to the sight. Maybe things have changed, gotten better, I have no idea. I have no dog in this fight and I really do not care one way or the other.

Your view is clearly based on opinion alone, mine is not.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/trans...y/oppo-bdp-83se

Oppo is both an advertister and is sold in their online store. I believe Yamaha is one of their biggest suppliers in their online store and they have had some non-favourable reviews of some of their products as well (I will try to dig them up).

When you provide credible measurements with your reviews, at the end of the day eliminates any "opinions/bias" of the reviewer.

Big deal. So do all the other Axiom products. We wouldn't expect any less... OK, so were a little spoiled here because we know Axiom delivers what it promises.

Maybe this is the dumbing down effect the internet has on people, but I was expecting an explanation specifically what made each product unique, or stand head and shoulders above the crowd AND a rundown of who the crowd is.

I guess we are a tough crowd.

Dr. House, does this particular episode not bother you at all? I think a statement from the President of Audioholics as follows is odd and, frankly, troubling: "If Axiom and others aren't happy with us picking their subwoofer for the award, we can very easily retract it if that makes everyone feel better." So, what was supposed to be an award based on some sort of facts and analysis will be changed because some people are not "happy?" To me, that says a lot, indicates that the analysis is in fact hardly neutral, and frankly comes off as childish. As I mentioned in my note above, I also think the way they apparently changed the article after reading comments on this board is problematic.

Frankly, I have no opinion at all about Audioholics in a now vs. then context. I in fact have very little opinion of Audioholics at all. However, I think this particular article and their response reflects poorly on them.

Just FYI, the main reasons I stopped reading Audioholics were these:

A perceived reliance on press releases (this is probably unfair)

and

A decided editorial slant against Apple. Every time Apple did anything (even unrelated to audio), there was an editorial or article putting the worst possible slant on it and essentially saying that anyone who liked their products was an idiot.

Really? You know me, I'm not an apple guy. Overhyped and priced. But lets bring some facts here. I'll start.

I just quickly pulled some articles from the search engine.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/porta...r-and-ipod.html

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33201 (the beginning of this review clearly contradicts what you are saying)

It's from Wayde Robson, for the most part. Have a look at his editorials. Clint and Gene seem far more balanced. However, since you already don't like Apple, it probably doesn't bother you. It bothered me, so I stopped reading.

Here's one in particular:
http://www.audioholics.com/news/industry-news/mac-clone-apple-controversy

So can you explain why? Whats the issue?

What's wrong with that

The little asides in what is presented as a news article.

"Perhaps Apple's legal team wasted no time in flexing its muscle"

"Apple is known to treat paying customers (who add third party software to iPhone) with hostile firmware updates designed to break the iPhone. "

"If not direct legal trouble it’ll almost certain attract software updates aimed at sabotaging unlicensed Leopard installs."

Hey, you guys don't have a problem with Apple/Apple User bashing, feel free to keep reading. I'm not going to. It's that simple.

How is this bashing? Are these statements false?

Yes, in fact.

So Apple has never had a firmware or other software updates on their products that has caused any of these issues described in the article.

The portrayal of it as intentional and specifically designed to break things, I'd say not, other than stopping the firmware level SIM hacks. Security updates that happened to close security holes that people were using as a vector to install software, well, that makes sense.

Well apple as a company is not very supportive of 3rd party anything and will control and restict. They have their skeptics and rightfully so. It is a valid argument and its not false.

It really is interesting how people are polarized by Apple. I personally think some of their products are nice and dare I say, innovative. However, I am no fanboi and recognize that the iPad is a piece of crap but people will buy it all the same simply because Apple made it.

A lot of fascination around Apple is due to their great marketing/branding. Look at Bose, another company brilliant at marketing their brand to the masses.

I’m glad I found and started reading Audioholics before ever hearing about Axiom and coming here or I probably would have crossed Axiom off my list. Not only did I find there “recommended systems” helpful in general (understanding they were subjective) but first discovered Axiom speakers in one of them. Can’t remember which $ range (probably have changed by now) but Axiom was suggested in that range if you wanted a better sound based system than the standard recommendations. Had I read these sorts of opinions about Audioholics here and certainly discounted their opinion which was one of the things that helped overcome all the negative comments about Axiom I was reading (with a grain of salt as many were over the top) over at AVS.

All people and all groups of people have biases. The only two ways I know of to deal with that is shut out those whose biases you don’t like and narrow your sources of information or to seek out as many (even if biased) opinions to try and find some semblance of a middle ground. Almost everyone is to short on time, lazy or already to closed-minded to do the latter (that’s a general statement and not pointed at anyone so don’t anyone get their undies in a bundle).

There is a huge wealth of information available at AVS if you can sift through the macho-BS crap of so many of the posters, so I read a lot at AVS despite the BS. I’ve always thought that Audioholics treated Emotiva like it’s little darling so when judging that company I look for other sources to balance the equation. I don’t simply stop reading Audoholics as I find it’s higher degree of focus on internet brands helpful since a lot of other sites tend to prioritize (are biased toward reviewing) B&M brands.

One thing I like about Audioholics is that so many different camps complain about it is an indication they might be getting something right. Many of their articles inject much more “colourful” comments than may be typical of “normal” reviewers but I find this both refreshing and revealing. It makes their reviews more enjoyable to read and lets me know what more about their biases (the way a good historian does in a books forward) so I can read their reviews with their biases in mind. Since everyone is biased I’d rather know those biases up front and adjust for them than to have to “read-between-the-lines” as so many recommend when reading audio equipment reviews to figure out what the reviewer is really trying to tell you.

Also, as the good Doctor has eluded to just because someone is biased doesn’t mean they can‘t have valid criticisms. I happen to think both Al Franken and Rush Limbaugh are A$$s but that doesn’t mean both don’t sometimes express valid opinions about the other side.

People will always buy XXXXX simply because it's made by XXXXX.

(Okay let's insert Sony, BMW, Dom Perignon) Doesn't mean the product is good/best but it might mean they've had a good track record at one time or another.

It's not problem for Apple, it's every companies dream. Apple happens to execute things well as a whole. Are there exceptions, absolutely but their track record of innovation, creativity, quality and ease of use is exceptional.

FYI: I put Sony in there as many people years ago would buy Sony simply because, but I know that has changed.

Similarly good marketing departments do not mean similarly bad products. But I'm done here; neither of us is likely to convince the other to change his mind, and more point->counterpoint is simply going to cause anger.

Thats what is known as critical thinking, something we seem to have a critical lack of here in North America.

I'm with Dean on this. I suspect there is more bias on the Audioholics site now that they are selling. Its unavoidable. That does not invalidate them as a source of info.

We are all biased, no question. Audioholics has a wealth of information over there from the technical reviews to their education center in which you can read on setup tips, speaker wire etc...good stuff.

We can all claim biases but in the case of Audioholics, they do stress technical measurements which makes them one of least biased sources out there for 3rd party info relating to this hobby.

I won't get angry

I'm with Dean as usual -Pavlov's dog syndrome.

Since Apple has been brought up, I thought I would mention a recent phone call I had with a good friend.

He gave me a call a couple weeks ago (I virtually never talk to him on the phone) and I answered the phone and said "hey man what's new", and his reply verbatim was "not much, just calling you from my new iphone".

As mentioned in the past, I can't stand anything Apple because people usually by the products for the image; it's huge. I'm not applying this to you Ken, you're obviously educated and mature, but you are easily the minority.

Sure they make great products, sure it's brilliant advertising on their part and ultimately the end user who buys the product for whatever reason. It just drives me nuts when I hear stuff like this.

I never knew people felt about Apple the way so many people feel about Bose. Must be because I've never researched that kind of stuff (the only thing by Apple I own is an Ipod). I suppose I never knew about the feeling many have toward Bose until I started learning about home theater and visiting helpful sites such as the Axiom site.

With regard to the original discussion, it really should be beyond debate that, unless it is 100 percent clear, marketing materials should not be used or quoted in an article or review without making that clear. Here, I think the audioholics site dropped the ball on that front. Perhaps many people would have known that is what was happening, but I think many of us trying to research and learn about different products would not necessarily have realized that. Even someone who was being thorough and read the criteria for judging may not have understood that they were reading marketing materials:

"Each product submission will be carefully examined by four members of the Audioholics staff who will individually select three top products from each subcategory, ranked from 1-3. These selections will then be compared publicly to arrive at a consensus on the award-winning products. Criteria for winning submissions include:

Advanced audio and video technologies pushing the CE market - product and technology innovation
Uniqueness in CE market
Time or money-saving features, including ease of use
Value for end-user and/or custom installer"

One can reasonably assume that evaluating "time or money-saving features" and "value for end-user" requires some testing of the equipment beyond reading marketing materials. It is one thing if I am on a site to buy the item--I expect marketing material. That was not the case here. In my view, this bordered on plagiarism.

While your observation about Bose is correct I would offer some context. IMO Bose it the Omega Wolf of the audio community. It’s the one everyone else can pick on to feel good about themselves while avoiding fighting with each other while posturing for dominance.

Bose serves a portion of the market that just wants something that works simply out of the box and sounds good to them w/o caring what a bunch of self proclaimed “audiophiles” like say us might think of them.

Sure Bose isn’t high fidelity but that doesn’t mean it’s won’t sound good to people w/o an “untrained” ear. I bring this up because even Axiom has to “train” it’s listening testers on what to listen for when evaluating and comparing it’s speakers because most people seem to prefer rolled off highs and a slightly elevated midrange. So to the untrained ear Bose may sound just fine especially considering most people buy them aren’t likely going to the lengths of most internet audio forum junkies in setting up their systems, but would rather have something that integrates better into say an existing living room.

My problem with apple has always been it’s proprietary nature. When shopping for my first pre-built computer apple was the “best.” Since I wanted it for word processing (so I could spell check papers) and playing games the PC won easily because it had 50 games I wanted to play vs apple’s 5. Since then I’ve never been in the market for one of their products though I must get off my luddite butt and get a portable player eventually. Hopefully there previous proprietary nature has waned to put them back in the running.

Thanks Grunt. That is interesting. Your comment that Bose is "the one everyone else can pick on to feel good about themselves while avoiding fighting with each other while posturing for dominance" made me laugh, as it seems to be very true.

I’ve made a living and a hobby of watching people interact socially, glad you got a kick from my observation.

One thing that I get a kick out of observing in this forum is topic derailment. Although in hindsight I should have I didn’t in fact see the train wreck starting this thread would cause nor the journey it’s taking.

sorry wrong button

Are you PWI (Posting While Impaired).

lol

No, but work is ridiculously slow, hence why my post count has probably gone up 25% in the last couple days

I dunno... I think Dean doesn't do justice to my dislike for Bose.

My take is this: Bose might sound wonderful to the masses, especially to those who appreciate the WAF they offer. And that's fine, if that's how they market themselves. But that's not how they market themselves.

They have tried, largely successfully, to be first-in-mind when consumers are looking for the "Ultimate Sound". And though they don't achieve that goal on paper nor in-room, they price themselves so high as to make customers believe that Bose has some magical way of breaking the laws of physics and sounding better than the big systems while maintaining that small physical size. But, it's not true.

I have no issue when people buy Bose and know exactly what they're getting. Hey, in some rooms, even I would like a system with speakers so small they're virtually unseen.

But when people are being "sold" that the products are "audio nirvana", when testing shows it clearly is not as good as much less expensive systems, then I call them on that.

I believe Bose uses deceptive marketing practices to sell over-priced and under-performing equipment because they fool the customer into believing they are the "best out there" and worthy of the high price.

And, to me, deceptive marketing is never forgivable.

(Insert the word "Monster" wherever the word "Bose" is used above, and re-read please)

What was Audioholics thinking?? = I hate Apple 'cause they're like Bose.

How could you miss that one Dean?

Bose and Apple may be similar in the marketing area, but Apple remains a more Innovative company that continues to deliver [overpriced] value.

By the way, in blind testing, the unwashed/untrained masses would also not like Bose. Its not that Bose has never made a good product, but they are few and far between. The last better than average speaker they made was the 901/903. Applying horn loading to an alarm radio was pretty clever too. The training that Floyde developed for blind testing is more of an efficiency thing: to help people be able to describe what they are hearing.

Here, here on both (bose & Monster) counts!

Lol, my fiancee's ex-husband (we're friendly) really likes my set-up. And it inspired him to put together his own HT. But I'm afraid he's very new to the game, and falling for all the myths that I fell for back in my day. First off, when he bought his 60 inch plasma he bought a $130 dollar Monster HDMI cable to hook it up with. As soon as I heard this I immediatelly tried to intervien. I told him look, I know Monster looks like it's better than all the rest, but in reality they aren't. I bought an HDMI cable for $20 bucks, and there is absolutely no difference between the two performance wise. Monster may use thicker plastic coating and such, but they both operate the same.

He says, "are you sure, they told me the Monster cable was much faster at processing the information"... I laughed (maybe that was a bad move) and told him that's why they sell so many $130 dollar HDMI cables, because the salesmen are trained to make them sound like a superior product. If everyone knew they were the same, then who in their right mind would pay $110 dollars more than necessary to achive the same goal? So he stormed off back to the store for a refund. He came back and said, "well they showed me two tv's hooked up with different cables, and I'm telling you what they aren't lying, the Monster Cables are better"!!!

Probably very differently tuned tv's if you ask me.

"So the salesman asked me what other cable I'd been looking at and I told him I'd found a nice set for $79 bucks. He said, well I'll tell you what, if I could come down on the price of the Monster Cable to around that same price, wouldn't it be worth the extra quality in picture to you"? So he stuck with the Monster Cable at $80 bucks. Now that right there would bave been enough to tell me that something's rotten in Denmark when they can come down $50 bucks on a product without blinking simply to 'match the competition'. But oh well, I didn't want to critisize him any more so I just congratulated him on getting a better deal.

Next up was his surround system. Now I knew he wasn't about to spend anywhere near what I spent on my set-up, so when he brought home an 'in a box' system and started talking to me about it all I told him was where to position everything to get the best sound out of it. He ended up unhappy with it and headed back to Indy to see what he could find. He came back gleaming, he'd found audio nirvana.... in BOSE!!!! He was falling all over himself telling me how awesome these two little speakers sounded, it was an all-in-one system, it covered the center channel, left/right mains and surrounds within these two little speakers. He said he was listening to some sales jargon from some guy when a Bose representative walked up and said, "hey, why don't you come over and listen to these little beauties"... So he walked him over to his Bose sound room and played him some stuff from these two little speakers, and it blew him away!!!

That's when he says to me, "what's their deal man, is Bose just better than everyone else or what"??? At this point I was about to burst I was so appauled by the sales gimicks they'd been pulling over Tony's eyes. But I didn't want to make hime feel like a shmuck, so I simply replied, "well there are several people out there that do like Bose, yes... but you can find better out there". But he wasn't buying it. He was sold hook, line and sinker by that demo. He said when he buys them he's going to bring them over and show me how they compare to my set up. He said I won't believe how good they sound.

I can't wait. I only wish I had a pair of M22's to give him a good price comparison for his Bose that are going to cost him $600 bucks. $600 bucks for two tiny little speakers... now there's a profit margin for ya. What would you guys guess they have in materials in those... $50 bucks? So yeah, while I have no doubts he'll find out they certainly don't compare to an Epic 80/800 system, I'd really like to be able to show him he doesn't have to spend $4000 bucks just to get good sound. He could get a great sounding system with just two M22's for less than that, and add some QS4's around back one he had a bit more saved up.

Still can't wait until he does bring them over though!

I’m not getting you here Fred? The Bose issue came up in relation to RayLewis’ comment not Audioholics. My topic derailment/train wreck comment is in reference to the those who don‘t like Audioholics and that I should have seen their consternation coming, it had just been awhile since the topic had come up so I forgot that some people really don’t like them. This forum’s reaction to some things does often make us the butt of jokes (well deserved IMO (though often exaggerated) in other venues).

Again the Bose vs Apple comparions was RayLewis’ and not that he or I were comparing Bose and Apple in any way but rather the reactions of some people to those companies.

I never said that Bose would win a blind test with any other brand but since I haven’t seen any posted recently I wouldn’t make a statement that they wouldn’t win to non-”audiophile” ears. Nor is blind testing relevant to my comment that non-“audiophiles” who hear Bose might think they sounded good. A system can sound good to someone w/o necessarily being “good” or sounding good to everyone. My first surround sound speakers were an old boom-box hooked up to analogue outs on my Oppo 981 and it sounded great compared to not having surround speakers. It wasn’t until I got my QS8 that I realized how great it hadn’t sounded.

Some think that Axiom speakers sound like crap, I happen to disagree, but understand their take as I’ve had to cover my ears as a sibilant passage in a recording came screeching out of my M80s. But unlike them rather than blaming the speakers by default I plugged in my Sennheiser 600s and verified they also reproduced the discomfort. But still to someone with a plethora of bad recordings the Axioms do in fact sound like crap to them compared to some other brands.

I figured someone would bring up a Bose/Monster comparison. While comparisons can be drawn between anything I see them as very different “Monsters” mostly due to the litigation issues. That almost everything in home audio is generally over priced including IMO Axiom cables (just go to BlueJeans or Lowe’s) is a slim basis for comparison. As for over hipping SQ in relation to speaker design marketing, there are many who make that claim of Axiom’s speaker designs. So IMO comparisons like these are all relative and choosing where to draw the line for comparison is arbitrary. Micah my 10 meter HDMI cables cost $49, you’re way overpaying. Even speakers including Axiom’s are overpriced if you’re willing to go the DIY route or just wait and get a discount.

Micah, thank you for making my point (and I don’t mean that sarcastically) that to the untrained ear Bose speakers can sound good or “fantastic” as you related. People at work know I have a “great” HT system and will often proudly come up and exclaim they just got some system or another from BB or another B&M store. I usually say something like that they make a good product and leave them happy with their purchase they are so proud of. To paraphrase if it sounds good (to them) it is good. I don’t find I’m being helpful donning my cape and rushing in to tell them how they “wasted” there money. Let them be happy since they will likely never no anything different. BTW I paid $7,200 for my brand new sedan (which does just about anything any other sedan does) 4 years ago does that mean people who paid 2, 3, 4 or more times the price got ripped off by marketing hype?

I’ve also had several people come up and ask my advice about systems to get and watched their eyes glaze over as I tried to explain some of the most basic HT concepts. So now I just usually say something like that pretty much any well know brand name company is going to sound good and unless they want to put some time into researching it themselves not to sweat it.

I think many of us in these forum, me included, can get way to caught up in our own opinions of all things audio. Not everyone views, nor wants to view the audio world with our level of obsession so I think it’s easy to take ourselves (opinions) to seriously. I’d rather step into someone else’s shoes and help them find what they want and not find what I want them to want.

It wasn't supposed to make sense other than a gentle poke at your lack of reference to which thread-jack you didn't see coming. I thought it was funny. I guess I got up to early today. Need coffee...

My bad! I also got up to early for a Saturday 10:00AM. What was I thinking? That’s my normal time.

The way the cable comparisons with Monster usually go down is that one TV is hooked up with an s-video cable, while the other is using Monster HDMI. Gizmodo has exposed this a few times.

Micah. All you can do is lead the horse to water. From there, its up to the horse.

Speaking of cables, I've seen RG6(RG59?) cable at Dollarama for something like $2-3 CD.

* The name(s) have been changed to protect the innocent. *

Fun (and frustrating) story, but unfortunately all too common. The "shootout" should be interesting, unless you can talk him out of the purchase...there's still time, don't give up!

You know, when he hears the difference I'll mention the M22's, but I'm sort of doubting it'll make him run out and order some. He's more of a BB store kinda guy, for what ever reaseon. So perhaps I'll just sit back and see what he says. If he seems ok with the way the Bose stack up against my Epic 80/800 for the money, then perhaps I'll just go along with it as well and tell him he got himself a good system.

Like Grunt said, who am I to push Axiom on him. If Bose blows his hair back, then more power too him I suppose. I suppose in the big picture I coulda saved about $3600 bucks if Ida just thought two little speakers were 'all that and a bag of chips'!

It's funny, most people that bash Apple do not own or use their products.

And are certainly not working with them in a professional capacity!

I will never understand why anyone would suffer the aesthetically ugly and utterly confusing/poor performance/buggy virus ridden indignity of the Windows os, but that's just my, admittedly biased, opinion.

Unless you like geeking out and building computers that is...


Myself, and other professionals in the audio/visual arts mostly use Macs. And get stuff done. Quickly and elegantly.

Windoze machines are business tools. Macs are paint brushes. Yes that sounds snobby and elitist, but it's true.

Having said that, they are way too expensive!

Like our two-party political system here in America, I look forward someday to a viable alternative to the Mac/Windows os domination, but until someone can come up with an easier, high quality way to mix audio in surround or edit high definition video with ease and power without third party hardware/software conflicts (see crappy pc firewire implementation), then I'm sticking with Apple.

But yeah, Axiom deserves all the awards it gets!!! Lol!

When I was into writing code and working on web pages I used Linux because of all the free tools and customizability. When I was heavy into computer gaming I used a PC because there weren’t crap for Apple/Mac games. I imagine if I were an artist or educator I would use a Mac. Makes sense to use the best tool for the job.

I have no love for Microshaft but the IBM-Micro model dominance has for good or worse brought some IMO need equipment standardization in what was at least for me at one time a nightmare of trying to get various components to play nice together.

I think paint brushes are even easier to use than Macs, though. Ahh, back when things were simple.

I find it fascinating, in a human behavioral way, how so many people seen to enjoy forming negative opinions about products they have neither seen nor used. "Yessir! I'm proud to believe it's crap!" Apple seems to suffer from this more than most companies.

I fully agree that their products are not for everyone, but the strength of the negative opinions goes beyond "It's not for me."

Are people threatened by Apple?

I think a lot of it has to do with snob appeal and the religious fervor that a lot of Mac addicts display. Apple is a bit more style conscious (but being Italian, I love that aspect) and the price, which reflects that, is prohibitive to a lot of people.

But Steve Jobs really is a visionary. If it wasn't for Apple, people would still be happily clanking away on ugly, beige beasts of burdens. Apple has forced the home computer market to adopt innovative ideas. Witness how many products rip off the look, feel, interface(s) etc. of Apple.

And from a purely capitalist perspective, they are probably the only "computer" company that has not only been able to adapt, but to thrive in an age when pirated digital media/content has sucked the life out of the movie/music/software business models of the 20th century.

I started using computers in the early 80's, running Cakewalk under DOS. Back when 256k memory was considered kicking arse! lol. It has taken my whole life for technology to finally get to the point where you can compete with world class facilities without spending millions of dollars in the process.

I had about $10,000 bucks invested in a G5 Mac recording set-up and I just recently bought a Mac Mini for $799.00 running the new Snow Leopard OS just for a media server/play toy and it blows what was cutting edge just a few years ago, out of the water. And when you include the software that comes loaded with every new Mac, you really have some powerful tools to work with, right out of the box. So price/performance is at a golden age for both PC and Macs. We really are living in wondrous times my friends!

Now, where is my goldarn jetpack?

Well said G.

Unix/Linux were game changers for sure. I do not miss editing .ini registry files or trouble shooting hardware conflicts for hours at all. I hated leaving OS9 behind when Apple (bravely) lept to OSX, but I would never, ever want to go back to those dark days now, that's for sure.

I would rather just create music/video and leave the coding to the ones who love that stuff.

Although the cheap price of PC's is very seductive, after having to struggle with a project running Vista as the OS, I realized that, as they say, you can never go home again.

Although I may check out Windows 7, I hear that is a vast improvement over Vista. All my friends in the "business" that use Windows are still running XP cause they finally got it to "play nice" and be stable. They absolutely hated Vista.

my 9 yr old imac at work sucks. of course, a 9 yr old PC would be completely worthless.

it's becoming obvious to me that computers are disposable/consumable items that should be had at lowest possible cost. the computer of your dreams, unlike the speakers/motorcycle/girl of your dreams won't be able to stay that way for long.

I think you’re assessment is right on. I’ve never cared for Mac users who had a superior attitude but then I guess I don’t restrict that just to computers. When I bought my first pre-built computer I so tried to convince myself to get an Amiga, but I just couldn’t overcome the disparity in the amount of software I want that was available for the PC instead.

Also I don’t think most people would come close to taking advantage of a Mac. I imagine most computer users just surf the internet, send emails, social network and other pretty mundane stuff that doesn’t require much. Hell I’m so cheap my primary online computer I’m using right now is a 6 year old Emachines that cost me <$350 w/monitor, keyboard and mouse. All I’ve done to it is upgrade the memory and video card right after I got it and it still does everything I need day to day. Best computer purchase I ever made so I agree with bigwill2 unless you have a special need treat it as a consumable product.

My housemate at UW Madison hated it when he had to get a PC at home to use some of his work software, he always had one of those stickers saying “Intel Outside” on his Mac. He was actually much more computer savvy than me but was so pissed off one day because he couldn't change the way something work. When I asked him if he looked for a registry key for it he just gave me a blank stare. I couldn’t help but laugh and show him Windows version of a big bloated branching tree of a .rc file. He was like a kid at Christmas until he realized how limited it’s functionality was.

I agree that Vista sucks. My first Vista install, post service pack 2, was the easiest OS install I ever had. 3 hours from entering the store to buy all the parts to booting up the PC. 6 hours later I finally got Civ 4 to actually run on it. The second install took over 6 hours to get the install to stop hanging half way through or crashing and not rebooting event to safe mode while using Windows update. So now despite any accolades heaped on Windows 7 (figure out a naming scheme please, Bob? WTFO) I’m running XP until those computers die or there is some feature/software I must use Windows 7 or “Melinda” or whatever it’s call by then for.

But I still like not having to load DOS high, find which hardware will play with what using whichever IRQ . . . .

I totally agree. There are so many non-technical users out there who only need their computers to do a few things. As the designated tech assistant in my extended family, I, for one, can't wait until the iPad catches on and I don't have to help people with the same old problems again -- e.g. upgrading software or the operating system, weeding out useless leech apps that slow down a computer, removing malware, etc.

The fact is that the personal computer is a scary thing for many people because so much can and often does go wrong.

Am I the only one that found this a little funny? Don't you have to like a companies product before you will buy it? Makes perfect sense to me that the bashers don't own...

To me, Apple understands and owns the UI. Nobody else gets it right as consistently or as often as Apple does. Without Apple, Windows would not exist. I would buy Apple products for normal ce prices, but I'm just cheap.

That said, Windows is pretty darned reliable and reasonably intuitive.

True. It's often said about the high end Power Macs that the one you want for professional work are usually going to cost around $4000.00. And I have always gotten at least 5 years of heavy use with their gear.

Also, I have always recouped my investment in Apple products within the first 6 months of owning them because they provide hassle free performance in a busy studio environment where you have to work fast and produce results for paying clients. If I was in a session and I had to constantly stop it to figure out some buggy OS issue, the clients would go elsewhere.

I believe that Apple's recent success is solely based on their consumer level products (iPod, iPhone etc.) not their high end stuff. If it wasn't for the hugely successful iPods/iTunes, Apple would probably not be in such a healthy and dominate position.

I mean, 10 billionth iTunes download? Get tha fruck outta here!!! That's some serious money. It's probably the only bright spot for us content providers who rely on monies made from music production. Apple has stepped up and seized an opportunity that record companies were too short sighted and stupid to take advantage of. Apple has created the model that has taken us into 21st century music distribution.

I just wished that I could have invested heavily in Apple stock way back in the '80s when everyone had written them off. Sigh.

I think I'm put off by their superior attitude. It's hard not to hate people who are full of themselves. Is it okay to have a problem with that if I admit their products aren't crap?

I couldn’t wait I cut everyone but my father and sister off. I refuse to build computers for anyone else anymore, and told them all to learn how to maintain their own systems. Now I don’t even let people I meet even know I have any computer skills at all I got so sick of constantly bailing people out who did stupid crap.

The people that are mocking the iPad have no idea how wrong, conceptually, they are. Although I would never get one now (early adopting is for the rich and frivolous), mark my words, this thing is going to be huge for the regular masses everyday 'puter use.

So buying Apple stock is still a good investment!

And I really have to pimp the Mini Mac. Impressive for the price. If you are in the market for a bitching new machine (I'm talking to you Grunt!) or if someone is looking to get their first computer, like steering someone to Axiom, a Mini Mac is the way to go. Fast, reliable and loaded with useful software. And I simply cannot rave more about Snow Leopard. Just add your own monitor, keyboard and mouse and the Mini Mac makes it's on sauce.

I will stop fanboy proselytizing now...

My dad has offered to buy me a Mac since he and my mom converted a while back, but I never took him up on it because he'd really only be buying it for me so he could come to me to ask me questions. I really like not having to provide technical assistance.

But who knows, maybe I'll let him convince me sometime. It might be fun to play.

Hey Grunt, the word mundane should cease to be used as a synonym of boring, simple, lackadaisical etc. The true etymology of the word is "of the world" or "belonging to it", which obviously isn't mundane.

The word has evolved somehow to mean something totally contrary to its original meaning.

Surfing the net isn't the same light workload it used to be. Websites are so complex now with so much content to process that there is a noticable performance difference now with slower hardware. The ipad seemed way too slow for me (even just going on the internet) given its pricetag.

I think we have to accept that words are going to be wielded in different ways over time, unless some superhero emerges who can lock down word usage.

Are you sure that's not Wo-Man?

No, it isn't. There's a little line to represent the adam's apple...

At least THAT's the little line and not something else, right?

What a tragic superhero, though, charged with the mundane task of keeping word meanings pure. He probably has to worry about a bot replacing him, too.

He looks rather blase about the whole thing.

Oh, he is. It's really that he's indifferent to the whole thing, as he was (and still is) disappointed in the Superpower he was given.

Plus, his name is Dirk, and he's harboring some feelings about that as well.

It's all pretty sad, actually.

He should play with his Adam's apple to make himself feel better.

Maybe he shouldn't if he's wearing tights?

Must....... resist.........Photoshop...........

This is sounding pretty daffy.

People like to bash the #1 spot holder. This is true for Apple, Microsoft, Cisco etc. etc. It's interesting having discussion in an audio/speaker related forum since so many people are married to their speakers/receivers/amplifiers etc.

I was once told...never love something that can't love you back! how apropos!

Sorry guys, I understand what you're saying Charles. I didn't want to come across as a prick, it's just a point of contention with me. It comes from reading the dictionary and thesaurus for hours on end.

Soooo... how does he actually use his powers anyway? When he hears someone using incorrect grammar, does he rush to the site, and punch that word right out of the air so that nobody hears it? Or does he use his super breath to mix that word around until it means what he was ultimately meaning to say?

Oh, and does he even care about cell phone texting language? You know, like, "hay, wut r u up 2 rite now? I luv u"!!! Because I'm afraid they're going to have to make about 30 million clones of that guy to keep up with all of that crap!

You didn't come across as a prick, so don't worry. I try to look words up if I'm not entirely sure how to use them, but I'm sure I'm making assumptions about a lot of words that I use, too. I bet I could benefit from more cracking open of the dictionary and thesaurus.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mundane

Perhaps you misunderstood my context but I believe I used the word correctly Cam as I consider internet surfing, emailing etc . . . as “practical” and “ordinary” as opposed to the computer uses being discussed by audiosavant and the corresponding advantages of using Apple/Mac over a budget PC.

Cam when I use the word “mundane” the context is almost always the same as when we used it in the SCA. To describe the “real” or as we would say “mundane” world in contrast to the fantasy world of knights in armour. While one could also construe that to mean the “boring” world that would be understanding our use of the word in that context incorrectly.

Or you can just read my short response. Bite Me!

Here's what I've learned so far from this thread:

(1) Apple sucks, or perhaps not.
(2) Audioholics.com sucks, or perhaps not.
(3) Bose sucks.
(4) I may or may not use the term "mundane" incorrectly.

Oh, cool, I've learned that I can put parentheses on both sides of the numbers in a list.

Yup, sounds like an Axiom forum thread-jack to me.

And to think the whole point was the EP800.

I love the EP800!

Deanster, I knew the context in which you were using it, I just didn't know if you knew the "proper" meaning.

late 15c., from M.Fr. mondain (12c.), from L. mundanus "belonging to the world" (as distinct from the Church), from mundus "universe, world," lit. "clean, elegant"; used as a transl. of Gk. khosmos (see cosmos) in its Pythagorean sense of "the physical universe" (the original sense of the Gk. word was "orderly arrangement"). L. mundus also was used of a woman's "ornaments, dress," and is related to the adj. mundus "clean, elegant" (used of women's dress, etc.). Related: Mundanity.

Etymology

Or you can take my short response- me crashing into your shins with my wheelchair

Oh, fun times.

You know Cam the one that really use to piss me off was the feminists at UW Madison saying “herstory” instead of “history” because they thought it was a contraction of “his” and “story.” I call people like that educated idiots.

History

P.S. It’s about time for Mark to show up. I think he’s slacking today.

I've had at least one feminist as a caregiver, who was quite staunch and had rather annoying viewpoints. She snapped at me one day when I said hysterics, referring to elation.

I have a feminist working for me now, and have read a couple articles that she has linked to on her facebook wall. One of them was the most hypocritical, counterproductive thing I have read.

Needless to say, I'm not a huge fan of feminism, but I do love the EP800.

But not as much as you love the Paradigm Signature SUB 25. Just like a man to juggle multiple love interests.

[quote=grunt
P.S. It’s about time for Mark to show up. I think he’s slacking today.

[/quote]

Isn't he always?

You know what. I had a dream the other night that I was at an electronics show, and met Mark at the Axiom booth. Now that's a random dream!

Was the booth a good showcase of his woodworking skills? Was he also offering wood-framed photos of the booth?

If I recall correctly, he was building a bridge made out of Popsicle sticks while his beautiful wife was giving him a pedicure and painting his toenails.

Yeah, that's it!

Dude, you're in the SCA? We keep meaning to get back into it.

Lemme guess, you're a figher.

Please tell me he wasn’t dressed in a camgal outfit.

ax·i·om
   /ˈæksiəm/ Show Spelled[ak-see-uhm]
–noun
1.
a self-evident truth that requires non-Monster, standard speaker wire.
2.
a universally accepted principle that their speakers kick ass.
3.
Logic, Mathematics. a proposition that is assumed without proof for the sake of studying the consequences that follow from it.



a·ward
   /əˈwɔrd/ Show Spelled[uh-wawrd]
–verb (used with object while saying:"They like me! They really, really like me!)
1.
to give as due or merited; assign or bestow: to award prizes based solely on press releases and advertising revenue.
2.
to bestow by judicial decree; assign or appoint by deliberate judgment, as in "I judge Bose to be a scam and a piss poor speaker to listen to sound with!"
–noun
3.
something awarded to a great internet based speaker company and later dismissed by customers on company forum.
4.
Law.
a.
a decision after consideration; a judicial sentence as in: "Here come da judge, here come da judge!"
b.
the decision of a/v web site on a subwoofer submitted to them.

He definitely wasn't. I do like the name of that outfit though

And loved every minute of it. Well there was that one shot in the solar plexus, and that other one to the kidney, and the time my helmet got ripped clean off . . . .Yep I loved it.

I’m not in the SCA anymore. Did it mainly when I attended Oregon State University. I liked the group we had there but every time I’ve moved somewhere else it just wasn’t the same so I haven’t rejoined.

Our group up there was pretty egalitarian. Everyone had to participate in formation fighting and some form of archery or skirmishing both things other groups seemed to frown upon at least at the time (late 70s) because they were not “Ka-nig-it-ly.” Also, no weapons were off limits when we fought each other which was fun.

I was also an avid (no fanatical) RPGer so I also participated in live action stuff down in the heating tunnels between the Dorms. The “Wizards” spells were coloured tennis balls, so I showed up one day with a tennis ball cannon claiming it was my staff. They told me to go back to being a fighter.

I gave away my plate armour but still have the chainmail boxed up in the attic. I couldn’t part with that as it took way to long to make. Though I should make a new set I did sort of make the weave to tight so it’s heavy as hell. It also got a little rusty after a big D&D argument over the difficulty of a “saving throw” to avoid drowning if you fell in the water in full armour. I didn’t drown.

I would love to get back into it but I’d have to find the right group of people and have more time to devote to it since I can get pretty caught up in that sort of stuff.

What did you and I’ll assume “we” refers to your wife do? When? Where?

Ah, different worlds... we were involved mainly from about '98-'03, 04. Not fighters, mostly just hangers-outers, as it were. Kingdom of the West, and we played with the Principality of Cynagua, although we technically live in the Mists.

Went to Estrella in Arizona in February 2002. That was decidedly cold...

I thought you might get a kick out of the name and no I didn’t make it up. It’s short for “Campaign Girl” though the pictures I linked are more specifically “Race Queens.”

Boy, I bet this is becoming quite the educational thread for some, I mean look what the Savant just shared.

My finger stinks.

Well, ultimately you have control as to where you put it....

Ultimately, I think it's a collaboration between independent will and external forces. Maybe a gorilla really loved that finger.

2 + 2 / 2 = 3

Twice.

You've actually used one? If so, when and how? The impressions I got from reading reviews by people who were at the iPad announcement event was that it felt extremely snappy.

No, haven't tried it. My impression is based on video watching Jobs demo it. I watch him access various sites and webpages and see how long it takes for them to load. Just felt and seemed to me that I can get that kind of internet surfing speed for a fraction of the cost right now. It is small and sleek with long battery life, but that's pointless IMHO if it's slow. I'd give up a bit of the battery life for a faster processor. Is the battery replacable or is the iPad a disposable product?

What type of processor does it have? I be surprised that was the bottleneck in loading web pages. How fast did is seem when loading other aps. Maybe I’ll check youtube, I’ll bet someone has posted the demo.

It's a custom Apple SoC (they're calling it the A4, for some reason), but scuttlebutt on arstechnica is that it's based on an ARM Cortex A8.

Off the top of my head it uses some uber low power (hence the long battery life) 1Ghz chip.

you're too fast

I have lots of practice.

You should definitely take him up on his offer. You'll be amazed at how little technical assistance is required. The probablility of you phoning him with a question is greater. It's difficult at first for a long time Windows user to understand the simplicity of the UI from Apple, but over time you come to love it.

Disclamer: I'm not an Apple fanboy. I own many different systems and OS's and in my life, they have all had their merits at one time or another. You owe it to yourself to see what else is available.

Apple uses integrated batteries on their iPhone and all their portable Macs (MacBooks and MacBook Pros), none of which can be fairly classified as disposable. Look, I understand your criticisms -- they are fair -- but I can't help but notice some of that irrational tone I was referring to earlier.

It's easy to see that the iPad, in its current state, is definitely NOT a replacement for a full computer, especially for those who are actually good at using computers. What sets the iPad apart is that you don't need years of practice operating a computer in order to take advantage of its potential. I bed I could set one down in front of my grandmother, who has never used a personal computer, and she'd be able to figure out how to use it after a few short lessons.

The problem with the IPad (as a book reader) is that you have to charge it everyday. I'm not sure how long it takes to boot up, but my Kindle turns on in seconds. And I don't have to charge it for about two weeks. And the Ipad is not readable outdoors since it's LCD based. So for the ebook market, I can't imagine Ipad beating the Kindle.

I have always wondered how well Apple's OS's/computers would have faired if they were forced to allow other manufactureers to build O/S's/products for their systems but use non apple designs like Microsoft/IBM had to endure with their products?

It seems pretty easy to me to design things to play nice together when you only have to worry about the products you have built in house.

I think Apple played it right. No one forced Microsoft and IBM, IBM just didn't have the foresight to see the money in software, they thought it was all about the hardware.

Not sure what I said that came off as irrational, but sorry if I offended you. I'm not critical of a product just because of its name, I could care less who makes the iPad. I'd have the same complaints if it were made by Toshiba, IBM, HP, or anyone else.

If I can't change the battery then the product (cell phone, notebook, iPad, whatever) is only good *to me* until the battery no longer holds a decent charge. That is what I meant by disposable, and I would say the same for any other wireless product in general. I'm not getting it so that I can use it plugged into the wall afterall.

I don't take your opinion of Apple personally, so you didn't offend me at all. I hope I'm not offending you by singling you out. I simply think that labeling a product with a built-in battery disposable is harsh, based on the charge retention history of the majority of their "captive" battery products.

Then that is good news. I've never owned any of their products, but if their batteries do indeed still hold a good charge say five years down the road then I won't really care if I can change it since there'll likely be a new model I'd want by then anyhow.

So now the only concern that remains is the speed. I'd be using for internet/email 100% of the time, so I'm hopeful that it is actually faster than what I saw in the demo.

Yet, without IBM's open architecture we would not have seen the rapid explosion of computers and application. Apple has continually driven the UI and usability, the PC has continually driven innovation and affability/market size.

To me its a Yin/Yang thing. Both have good and bad. In the early days, neither was complete without the other.

Actually, their oldest laptops with captive batteries and iPhones aren't 5 years old yet. I have an iPod that's older than 5 years that still holds a decent charge, though. To be honest, when it stops doing do so, I'll be wishing I could pop a new battery into it easily.

EDIT: Apropos of our discussion, I see that Apple just added these battery info pages to their site:

http://www.apple.com/batteries/ipods.html
http://www.apple.com/batteries/iphone.html

Nobody operates in a vacuum. Not that they're slacking, but I'd love it if someone leapfrogged Apple in the UI area. Competition is a very good thing.

There isn't much competition in a oligopoly. You are not going to see any innovation from any new companies . The barriers to entry would be extremely high and the market share is already dominated by a few companies. Hopefully companies like Apple and MS continue to use their sub-normal profits to innovate.

Good point.

Credit where Credit is due.

My wife took over my old 5MB Creative Zen. A wonderful little MP3 player if you could get used to the finicky touch pad. At the time, the replaceable battery was a check mark on my shopping comparison list although I actually expected that by the time the battery went bad, I'd probably just want another one.

Well, I did buy another couple more since then but the battery lived on. Until last month when my wife took it home from work and said it won't charge anymore. Just for fun, I dug up the papers my wife religiously files away for me cause I'd lose them and emailed the support address to see if a battery was even available anymore. I said I would provide a VISA number if the price was reasonable and they gave me a number to call.

6 days later, after giving up and showing her how to use my old Zune, I got a 1 liner email response. "You send address, please." Just for fun I did and about 2 weeks later, I had a new battery from a company in California that I have never heard of before.

At the time, Creative was playing the "Our battery is replaceable" card pretty heavy, but I didn't actually expect to ever get one replaced. Kudos to them!

Most of my credit is due to Visa...

Mine too.

I've often wondered how Blackberry managed to stay below everyone's radar, and off of the wanna be hit lists. After all, when you look at the usual pundits... Apple, Bose, Monster Cable, MicroSoft... They are all heavy weights in their field, thus everyone takes a jab at them (bigger you are, the easier the target). But for the most part, even though Blackberry dominates the smart phone market, most people (even iPhone users) don't bag on Blackberry very much.

Not that I mind at all, since I've used Blackberry's for years now, I just never understood how I got away with it for so long. I really thought once Blackberry made the mistake of taking on the iPhone head on with the Storm, and lost miserably (too thick, too slow & no improvements over the iPhone if that's your thing) that they would receive a lashing. But nothing really became of it. Blackberry users continued to be Blackberry users, iPhone users continued to be iPhone users almost as if the showdown never even happened.

Which in today's day and age is just a little bit... odd?

True, but I see them as very different products. The BB is tailored to the executive or mobile manager types who want instant, no frills synchronization with their Microsoft Outlook or equivalent. The full (push button) qwerty keyboard that many of it's models have is also demanded by many of these folks.

The iPhone does emails but full synchronizing with Exchange Server proved difficult at first (I'm assuming it's no problem now)and the touch screen keyboard was seen as an inconvenience by the BB type folks.

Both are great products but I think it's a good example of how they are catering to two very different personality types and business needs.

Indeed, which is why I thought it was a HUGE mistake to unleash the Storm, expecially if it wasn't competetive with the iPhone, which it really wasn't. There was a huge market to capture (all those who owned iPhones because they were the 'IT' phone, and not because they were Apple lovers), but they didn't sway anyone over because not only was it not as good as the iPhone, it wasn't even as good as most other Blackberrys.

I would have thought they would have scrapped it instead of launching a failure, since it made them look desperate not to fall behind to the iPhone. But Apple made the mistake of restricting themselves to AT&T, so Blackberry was never in jeopardy of falling behind really anyway. So why even bother? I've never thought most Blackberry users to be people particularly worried about having the 'IT' phone, just a good working business tool, which most Blackberry's (besides the Storm) are.

To me it seemed like a big mistake, but nobody really seemed to notice.

BB is a *MAJOR* player in corporations. We probably have about 100,000 units deploy just in my company! For corporate email/calendar/Exchange support, NO ONE even comes close to BB. Not to mention their incredibly useful keyboards.

I **LOVED** my Palm Pilot because it was ***SO*** useful to me. I love my Droid because it's a fun device to have.
But for work email, noting even comes close to BB.
Oh yeah, I love my Kindle, but I can't imagine getting an IPad for now. It's too bulky as an ebook reader, and it's too annoying to use a mobile PC. And it's too bulky to play games on like ITouch. I was -> <- close to buying an ITouch (mostly to pass the time and play games) until the Droid came out. As an early adopter, I'm usually the kind of person who would snatch up Iphones, and Ipads. But the forced AT&T service was a deal breaker for me and IPad just wasn't useful to me.

In the personal market, I would agree that BB is not a major player. One interesting thing I've noticed. BB seems to be taking off in the urban market (around NYC that is). I thought that was kind of interesting.

Enough rambling....and oh yes, I'm sure EP800 ROCKS!! (just to keep the thread on track)

Congratulations to Axiom on another award.

SoundStage! Equipment Review - Axiom Audio EP800 v3 Subwoofer (7/2010)

The 1 year old EP800 is already up to version 3???

It's the amps!

By the way, I read the review and agree with it totally. With the v3 amps, these things are monsters. I can feel the air pressure from the back row. The only thing I disagree with is when they say that you need a big room for them. 2 EP800s in a smaller room (16x18) is AWESOME!

I think they're also just matching up the version numbers across the board...

I've noticed the EP350 has been at v3 for some time. Is there any reason for this? Is it the amp?

Probably the amp.

When they redesigned the amps and sent me mine I was under the impression that was the V2. Has there been another update to the amp since then? Or was there one before that?

Seriously, guys, I'm pretty sure the v3 is just a designation to make it the same as the rest of the lineup. Stop panicking!

I like to panick. It keeps my blood pressure nice and high.

Well, the countdown has started for my new EP800s. I have only one more layaway payment to make, which will be made two weeks from yesterday. I don't exactly have the space for them in my current room, but I'm sure I can figure it out with some rearranging. So yeah, maybe in three weeks or so I can start asking more questions about running four subs.

I think on Sunday, September 12th, we should all head to Charles' house.

'Cept those crocodiles scare me.

Well, you'll all be welcome to come over when the basement's done and I can move my system down there.

It'd be better to have the system on the main floor, that way the bass could radiate nicely throughout the entire house

Of course I just lost my debit card, so I need to make different arrangements for the final payment. I have no idea where my card could have disappeared to. I'm afraid I may have done something with it in my sleep. My last debit card disappeared, too, and I do weird things in my sleep on occasion.

::Mark runs away giggling, waving the card in the air::

Do you ever have homo-erotic dreams? If so, perhaps you should check your next poop for your card.

I don't think I could've come up with that theory in a million years.

No, but if I had to bet on anyone coming up with that, Micah would've had my bet.

If your wife has noticed that you're about to pull the trigger on another 4-figure discretionary purchase, I'd check her handbag for your card---or the bottom of the shredder.

Dude. DUDE.

"Swipe that card. Swipe that card!"

Sorry. Murph's done now.

Well as John Dillinger once said, "it doesn't matter what you're notorious for, so long as you're notorious for SOMETHING"!!!

Yeah, Charles, does your wife have your card?

Ooo, I forgot...


...you have the same luck with women as I do.

We should multiply our luck together. Then maybe we'll come out ahead.

Let's see. I figure I end up dating about 1 in 10 of the women I ask out (as a conservatively high estimate). So that's 0.1. If you have a similar record that'd be:

0.1 * 0.1 = 0.01

Don't think it helps.

Computing the math for an odd hand joke comment, made me realize what my problem might be!

You need to use your other hand?

Doh. I at least need to shift my left hand one key to the right.

I'm not sure where it is, either, but I bet someone has an awesome new 65" wall-mounted 1080p plasma TV with anti-glare coating and more bells and whistles than you can shake a stick at to prove that it still exists.

They must have gotten a really good deal on it if they didn't overdraft my account.

of corse.
Alan is proud that his text ends up word for word as a review.

Ummmm.... yeah we've covered that. No need to beat a dead horse. That is a nice picture of Alan though, he looks very different when he dyes his hair black.

Whatintha???
How'd did I get drawn into this? LOL!

I'm pretty sure that ghdfans2010 is a spam account.

Not in the traditional sense, but one that operated by a human, trying to build a standing on the forum.

That sentence, "Alan is proud that his text ends up word for word as a review," was taken word for word from a post by 2x6spds, on the first page of this thread.

The link they have in their signature goes to a advertisement blog, about hair straighteners. Huh? Also on their profile their occupation is listed as "SEO" (Search Engine Optimizer). Oops.

Mods notified.

Sooo... Where did he get that picture of Alan then???

That's also served from the advertising blog.

I made my final payment last Friday, and Noreen was quick to send the email saying they were processing my order and would send me tracking information very shortly. I've been waiting, and yesterday I finally broke down and emailed her asking what the status is on my order. No word yet. Here's hoping they've already shipped them and simply haven't emailed me yet to inform me. I think they may need another Noreen. It seems like customers are having to chase down what's going on with their orders more these days. I'm sure part of it can be attributed to the craziness of the v3 launch, but I've been stuck waiting on information on previous orders, too.

Hey Charles
Noreen is on holidays at the moment and that is probably why you may not have gotten an e-mail from her. I was talking to Brent yesterday and that is what I was told when I didn't receive my shipping e-mail and my vp180 showed up.

That was my first thought, since there was mention of people on vacation in another thread, but I thought I just read a post last night that someone had had communication with Noreen. I could be dreaming.

No I don't think so. Nothing inanimate spoke, no bizarre events occurred, and the girl you like didn't suddenly do something from a Stephen King novel. You used to entertain us very well with your dreams and simply "reading an email about Noreen" definitely was not one of 'your' dreams.

Kidding of course, I miss your dream stories.

Poor, crushed Charles.

He no longer has any dreams.

Ha ha. I simply haven't remembered enough about them to post them. I had one the other day, but it was already too vague after waking.

CV above: "I think they may need another Noreen"

Impossible. She's unmatched as I proclaimed in a 2008 post titled "Noreen Rocks!" -- And it's worth repeating, which I will:

"What an asset to the company. The customer service she provides - her professionalism, responsiveness, patience, genuine concern for customers, and overall sunny disposition is simply unmatched. I will remain loyal to Axiom in no small part due to Noreen being there..."

I feel kind of weird talking about her by name when she doesn't participate on the forums. I should really be less specific and just say that Axiom could use help with that part of the process.

Even if she was on vacation, which is none of our business, it's not really something that should be used as an excuse for why a company isn't executing. The customer shouldn't have to hound who they purchased from about the status of their order. I try to be an understanding customer, but it seems like I'm being expected to be understanding more than I should have to.

Because I finally got a response, and they haven't shipped my subs yet. Originally, I was told that they were scheduled to be shipped on the day of my final payment, which should have been Monday, only I paid it early--last Friday--and that's when I got the purchase receipt saying that I would be getting another email with my tracking information very shortly. That's a fuzzy timeframe, but I was expecting they would at least get them out on Monday, which is when they were originally going to be ready to go. No such luck, and now they're "pushing" to have them ready to go this coming Monday, but no guarantee. I can only imagine how much stuff they're having to deal with after the launch of v3, and this is why I'm trying to continue to be understanding, but at the same time, I'd like to suggest that they use the opportunity to fine-tune their processes.

I like recommending Axiom to people because they've always stood behind their product, but I would have a hard time explaining the need to chase down information on their orders only to find out there was an unforeseen delay.

Hey, it's Mel's award-winning EP800:



I really do love that finish. Don't worry, though, I'm never going to be able to justify re-purchasing my whole system. Right?

NEVER say never Charles!

I hear a sharpie works really well on those drivers if you prefer the black-eyed pea look.

I suppose it would be nice to have a use for my Sharpie Magnums. Unfortunately, uncapping one makes the house stink for a century. I'll have to do it over at a friend's house.

I know you were all on the edge of your seat, so I just wanted to say that I got my shipment confirmation email today. Here's hoping they get to me by next weekend.

Woo Hoo!

I WAS on the edge of my seat. I was trying to figure out where I could put four EP800s, and realized I would have to sit on the edge of one seat so one of them could have the couch!

I really need to get a friend around here who is interested in home theater to come over and help me play around with positioning the subs. As in, they need to do all of the moving of the subs while I sit and listen.

I should also finally get the necessary hardware and learn to use REW. Of course, seeing how bad the acoustics in my room are might make it so I can't make fun of your square room anymore.

Oh, I should mention that I got my EP800s today, a day earlier than I expected. Well, at least I'm pretty sure they're EP800s. I'm just unboxing them now. We'll see!

The good news is they're both v3 EP800s. I like the magnetic grills a lot. As in, I like that when they're off, there are no post holes. Not that it matters, since I'm trying them at the side mid-walls facing each other, so the holes aren't going to be apparent. I'm not going to do any tweaking tonight. I simply calibrated and called it good enough. They're all working. The bad news is that one corner edge of one of the new EP800s was slightly messed up, to where the vinyl may want to start peeling off if it encounters any rough handling down the line. As it is, it just looks slightly imperfect at that corner. It's not going to be worth the hassle of returning it.

I doubt I'll notice a performance difference, especially in the current room, but at least I have the flexibility to try a number of configurations when my system is in the basement. Anyway, that's what's going on with me.

You doubt you'll notice any performance differences??? Man that's a lot of cabbage to spend just to have an 'even' room response! But, hey that's your cabbage, if you're happy with the way you spent it, then I'm happy for you. Lets see some pics!

Oh, did you order these through the FO? If so then the slight imperfection would be understandable. However if you ordered them regularly, then by all means don't be shy. $2200 is a lot of money, I would accept nothing less than a perfect subwoofer for that kind of loot!

So when is this big move into the basement?

These are new, not Factory Outlet. I may take a picture of the corner and send it to Axiom, but I really don't want to have to deal with packing it up, sending it back, and waiting for another one again. I've done that too many times already with the other ones. Still, if the slight damage can get me a discount on my next order....

Yeah, it's a lot of money to spend on almost no performance difference. I simply meant it would be hard to realize a difference in the current room, since I'm still only using two locations, and the room isn't so big that I would need the headroom. So yeah, it really was just in anticipation of the basement move.

I'm not sure when I'll be able to move the system to the basement. There's still quite a bit of work to be done down there, some of it major. I'm getting pretty impatient, so I'll be throwing a lot more money at it to make it happen quicker. I've only been talking about it forever.

CV look at it this way. If you time it just right, you could hide inside it and have a reallllly cheap flight to Dwight for the gathering!

With my timing, I'd get held up in Customs, no doubt.

Customs would be in quite the pickle... Just how much excise tax is there on a human being?

After more thinking, I decided to go ahead and ask for a replacement. They gave me the option of $95 credit or a replacement, so I decided to go for replacement. I figured it would end up bothering me down the road.

Simply so there's a sense of closure (I know this has been gnawing away at you all), I got my replacement EP800 sub today, and I feel much better. Thanks to Axiom for once again standing behind their product.

There's no "closure" till you get them set up and invite us over.

(With the alligators locked in another room, of course)

We're a weird bunch, aren't we? You have alligators, Randy has ghosts, and I have dead bodies buried in my basement. Weird.

Weird indeed. Most people bury their dead bodies in the back yard. What made you choose the basement?

I like my backyard un-lumpy.

That's why you need the steamroller modification for your lawn tractor.

Heck, with that, you could even save some steps!

I always knew Ken was the evil one.

Oh there is more than one! They are all around you. Staring.... Whispering.....Moving ever closer.

Evil needs to speak up.

And if he stutters, it's good form to NOT finish his sentences for him.