So I bought the Epic 80 system, which I like very well. But then again these are my first speakers ever, so am sure would have been happy with pretty much anything. They do a great job, except this.... They shut down my reciever! And my reciever is no slouch here is what I have. Onkyo TXDS989 and here is a link to a review http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_3/onkyo-tx-ds-989-receiver-8-2000.html .
Well anyways my system shuts down when my volume is at 82.. which being thx certified is the optimal volume to listen to movies at. At that level it friggen shut down my system. I went through and checked all connection, called service centers over my reciever. And went to the AV boards. They ask what omhs my speakers are, i tell them that my main towerspeakers the M80ti are 4 ohms. But I keep telling them it must be a over sensative circuit in the receiver, that it's not my speakers! WRONG. as of this moment my receiver has been going over half an hour with my neighbors 8 ohm speakers at a volume of 95, when at a volume of 83 (... which i remind you so you have a refferance to how loud this is.. is the volume THEY, and they being Lucas Films believe that you should listen to movies at ...) the m80ti shuts down my system. I am upset right now, I have been dicking around with this for 2 days now, and now I am convinced it's the m80ti that is causing this problem. I bought this for my home theater setup, and now i find out that it dosn't handle the volume of sound that I want.
Very unhappy
Marty
its not that the M80's cant handle the volume. Its that your reciever doesnt have enough guts to push them to the volume you want. my suggestion is get a seperate power amp for the front speakers if you have pre-amp outputs for those channels or get a reciever that can handle a 4 ohm load. be mad at yourself for not making sure your reciever could handle the speaker load. not the speakers.
Haloed is on the ball.
Is there a switch on your Onkyo? Can you change a setting that tells it the main speakers are 4 ohm (or even 6 ohm would be better) as opposed to 8ohm or higher?
Read your user manual about that, and confirm that it can, in fact, PROPERLY handle a 4ohm load.
Ok I am more calm now. It's not that I didn't do my research, if you read up and the review of my receiver, the guy tested with ALL speakers at 4 ohms, and had no problem with the receiver. And talking to other people, many of them run 4 ohm speakers. That is why I thought it was the receiver that was the problem not the m80ti. And at the volume I am asking the speakers to play at, dosn't seem too much to ask for. So I think to myself is this normal, and from what I have read, and the replys I have gotten, I am thinking not, maybe there is something wrong with a speaker? How would I go about finding out if there is a deffect with 1 or both m80ti speakers? Now that I have vented in the prevous post, it is time to figure out a solution. Any sugestions?
Marty
check your private messages 2xs
2xs,
Yes, indeed it is surprising to me that the M80's shutsdown your Onkyo 989, a receiver that "officially" supports 4-ohm loads. As ravi_singh has suggested, I would first check the speaker load (ohm) switch on the Onkyo. If it does exist, make sure that the "low" ohmage is selected there. It should solve the problem.
Another thing that comes to my mind is the ventilation. Is your Onkyo placed so that it gets plenty of ventilation? The user manual should state the minimum recommended clearance etc. For example, do not place another piece of equipment directly on top of the receiver. If the Onkyo does not get enough ventilation, it might activate thermal shutdown, especially when driving 4-ohm loads (which makes the power amps generate more heat).
With regard to the possibility of one of your M80's being defective, I would try listening to each one of them separately (just temporarily disconnect one of them, or turn the balance control to the extremes). Place your ear close to each one of the six drivers on each M80 to find out whether every driver sounds "normal." At any rate, the defective speakers are relatively remote possibility here -- If one of the M80's is defective, (1) it would sound overtly wrong; and (2) the receiver would shutdown rather immediately.
Looking at the receiver on Onkyo's site, they don't seem to suggest below a 6 Ohm load. I can't see any switch to set it up for low impedance speakers but I'm downloading the manual now (12.3MB...). I would suggest trying each M80 by itself on both front channels to see if one of the speakers trips something and the other doesn't, but I doubt very much that is your problem.
A couple of things i will add here.
In owning the Onkyo DS797 receiver, i know that it can run a 4 ohm speaker. However, i have never driven a 4 ohm speaker setup extensively (i.e. 5 speakers all 4 ohms, or more than 2 - 4 ohm speakers in stereo) so i cannot personally report whether this receiver, when pushed, will shutdown.
Onkyo does not officially stamp these receivers for 4 ohm speakers and the manual specifically states that the speaker impedance per each speaker should be a minimum of 6 ohms (see page 21 of the
DS989 manual).
2xs,
There is one thing you did not make very clear. In stating you were trying to set the M80s at a volume of 83, did you mean actual dB or did you mean 83 on the Onkyo volume scale?
If you meant 83 on the Onkyo volume scale then i think there is some confusion about what a good volume level for listening should be. If this is the case, then in driving a 5 speaker configuration with the 4 ohm M80s at a level of 80+ on the Onkyo volume, i'm not at all surprised it shut down.
The volume at which you are describing your testing is QUITE high. The highest i have ever turned the volume on my DS797 was 84 on the same Onkyo scale and i measured 105dB peak sound. I did this to see just how loud i could push my setup before potentially causing any damage. Certainly the SPL would begin to damage your ears with extended listening at that volume. My DS797 cooling fan was just clocking away during this test and the receiver itself got quite warm to the touch in a room with an average temp of 19C. I KNOW that my receiver was being pushed hard and i don't own the M80s, i own M60s, an 8 ohm speaker.
In 'testing' your receiver with a friend's speaker set at the level of 95, i'm surprised you did not blow out his speakers from distortion. I'm hoping you at least only ran this in stereo mode.
Again the assumption here is that the 95 refers to the Onkyo setting and not actual dB.
As for that hometheatrehifi review, information from the internet (or even in magazines) should not be taken as pure, unequivocal fact. Although this (professional?) individual reported using a 4 ohm speaker with the DS989 receiver, he did not state what volumes were being used (giving an idea as to how hard he was pushing the receiver). The differences b/w his 4 ohm speaker and another can also be quite significant as to how/when a receiver may go into protect mode. Although he successfully ran a 4 ohm speaker with this receiver, readers should
not derive the conclusion that "this receiver could drive ANY 4 ohm speaker to ANY volume level".
You can check that your DS989 fan is running, ventilation clearance, 6 ohm switch vs. 8 ohm switch, and perhaps some of the other suggestions by other forum posters would be helpful, but ultimately i would say for your preferred volume levels, the DS989 receiver appears to be quite inadequate for your speaker system.
If you plan on purchasing any other products to replace the Onkyo in the near future, i would suggest giving the customer support lines a call and/or downloading the user manuals ahead of time and check to see if the company officially supports 4 ohm speakers with their products. The review sites are good to get an idea of options, features and someone else's opinion of audio products, but ultimately only the company info and the individual buyer can determine what is really required and best for them.
In reply to:
Onkyo does not officially stamp these receivers for 4 ohm speakers and the manual specifically states that the speaker impedance per each speaker should be a minimum of 6 ohms (see page 21 of the DS989 manual).
Hmm... The 989's web page cites the "dynamic power" with as low as 3-ohm loads. But then, these specs are for the THX Ultra 2-certified 989 Version 2...
Hi everyone- I just registered so I could respond to this post to offer a suggestion.
Don't forget that your center channel and your rears with this setup are all 6 ohms. Combine that with a much harder to push 4 ohm front set of speakers, and you're asking your receiver to work overtime. I'm willing to bet that it's not the speakers at fault here. It's the fact that you're running loads on an amp that wasn't designed to be stable past 8 ohms. Putting two 4 ohm loads as well as three 6 ohm loads can cause alot of stress on your receiver if it was built to withstand a "normal" setup of 8 ohms.
My suggestion would be to try playing only the 80's in two-channel stereo and see how the receiver responds at the same level you previously were having problems with. I doubut that you got stuck with two "bad" speakers as the chances of that seem to be quite slim, considering Axiom's reputation for high quality standards. If your amp doesn't shut down during the two-channel stereo playback, then you'll have a chance to hear if the speakers are both blown. Obviously, if it does, I'm still willing to bet that the amp is creating too much heat from having to work harder with the 4 ohm load.
Hope this helps make some sense of it for you. Good luck.
Kevin
Yes sushi.
That is true and the dynamic power specs were one reason why i bought my DS797 thinking that if push came to shove, my receiver 'could' potentially handle a 4 ohm speaker.
However, i did not put much faith in those numbers since their manual still only recommends 6 and up.
But as i said, in stereo mode, i've run 4 ohm Kefs no problem, pushed to 75-80 on the Onkyo volume scale.
I even ran them for a short period with all 5 channels running but at a lesser volume.
For the louder volumes and possibly? more draining M80s (compared to the Kefs), i'm not surprised that DS989 shut down.
The newest poster KCSkins just made a good suggestion about running the M80s in stereo as a test of receiver capability w/o the other channels running, similar to what i had done with the Kefs.
My Onkyo TX-sv919thx receiver used to click off at the drop of a hat. It got hot very easily. I had to keep it on top of my enterainment center. It could not handle being "cooped" up in any sort of cabinet.
How new is your receiver? Any chance you can swap it out with the similarly priced Denon unit? I know the Denon will do fine with this load.
My Pioneer 45TX can also drive the 4-ohm fronts (Hales System Two) plus the 6-ohm VP150/QS8's at the reference level and beyond, even though Pioneer (like Onkyo) recommends >6-ohm speakers. Although I do not remember the actual impedance curve of the Hales published somewhere a long time ago, I don't think it was as well tamed as the M80, which is shown below...
Am at work right now, when I get a bit of time, will write down how I tested, the speakers and receiver, and some numbers I got.
Marty
Ok I have some time now. I believe I had more then enough breathing space for the receiver, but just to make sure, I disconnected all the wiring and put it in the middle of the room, so there would be no dought =). Shut down happened in stereo mode, total of 3 speakers, 2 towers, and my sub. Setting is towers set on Small, cross over at 80 for my sub. Borrowed a set of poke tower speakers at a rating of 8 ohms, no idea what model they were. Now here is how I tested speakers. All with sub on, all testing in stereo mode.
2 m80ti shuts system down at about 83 volume level on receiver. SPL meter reads maybe around 100 dB. But that was at the loud bass parts, so more like around 90-95 dB.
2 poke speakers at a volume of 95 .. VERY LOUD .. never shut down the receiver.
1 poke 1 m80ti shut down receiver at a volume of 90. Swapped both speakers with each other, to make sure it was not a faulty wire issue, same results. Tested other m80ti speaker in same manner, shut down at 90. The speakers were consistant through testing.
So conclusion is that the set up I have with receiver and speakers will only go up so loud, which is loud, just not as loud as I thought they would go to. New speakers, a new receiver, or a new 3 channel amp, I figure will solve this problem =). Oh well time to start saving my pennies again .) Anyone have a sugestion on a good amp?
Thanks for all the imput guys!
PS ... I do love these speakers, just had a bit of a higher expectations of them I guess =).
Marty
First thought: Are you dissapointed in the M80's or in the fact that your Onkyo can't drive them?
Second - amp reccomendations. What's your budget?
2xs,
Nifty test.
Very methodical.
Did you try using the 6ohm and 8ohm switch to see if that made a difference?
It sounds to me like the DS989 hits a wall when powering the M80s.
In a sense, that is good to know. I probably will not change my M60s for the M80s anytime soon considering i have the DS797 receiver. In the future readers now know not to recommend that receiver for anyone considering the M80s for louder playback.
You should be able to sell your DS989 relatively easily and recover a fair bit of the cost, unless you have the option of returning it still.
Just in the past two weeks someone else had asked about HT receivers that would sucessfully power the M80s. Offhand i think some of the names were H/K av525?, Rotel, Sunfire Ultimate.
See if you can't find that recent post or wait for some suggestions from other posters who have already tried the M80s with some receiver combos.
2xs,
A nice, detailed report! It sounds like your Onkyo is unable to drive the M80 properly. Also, it does seem that your M80's are normal. The SPL level of 100dB is fairly loud, but yes, it should go much louder without a problem. The "peak" SPL (if you have the digital version of the RadioShack meter) should readily go 110dB if you pump it out.
One additional question: Did the receiver shut itself down as soon as you turn the volume knob up to 83 or 90, within a few seconds? Or did it take 30-60 seconds or more before shutdown? If the former is the case, it definitively suggests the over-current shutdown (the latter suggests thermal).
At any rate, before jumping on to a power amp upgrade, I would still request Onkyo to "repair" the receiver under warranty. I do not think your receiver is functioning as it meant to. I believe that the protection circuit in your particular unit happens to be set too conservatively. I say this because I understand that the early batches of the current Pioneer Elite receivers had lots of shutdown problems just like yours, and in a majority of cases, Pioneer could "fix" it upon request, without ever admitting that there was a problem in the receiver.
That surprises me that it shuts down their totl in stereo mode or at all for that fact. My suggestion is get a 2 channel power amp, like the NAD C-270 (i have the C-370) and just hook that up to the recievers pre-amp outputs if it has them. The 270 runs about 600 bucks. OR sell your reciever and get a different one.
such as the NAD T762 reciever. it will run you about 1300
NAD T762
http://www.yawaonline.com/yawaonline/nadt7sursoun4.html
NAD C-270
http://www.yawaonline.com/yawaonline/nadc2powambr.html
the reason i reccomend NAD equipment is because first of all i own the c370 and its got alot of good clean power and sounds good with the axioms and because i know they offer alot of value for the money, and they are known for their power. And also YAWAonline is a good place to buy NAD online because they are authorized and they have good service and descent prices.
It took couple of minutes for it to shut off, the receiver itself never got hot at all, perhaps a little warm, but nothing that should shut off because of inpending thermal damage. Also I bought this from a non Onkyo autherized website =(. So that voids the warrenty I believe=(. Oh well, but I might send it in anyways, to have it looked over.
In reply to:
It took couple of minutes for it to shut off, the receiver itself never got hot at all, perhaps a little warm, but nothing that should shut off because of inpending thermal damage.
Ah... It sounds to me that the thermal shutdown circuit has likely been set too conservatively. Or, perhaps some of power transistors are not properly thermal-coupled to the heatsink. Who knows? Since the thermal sensor monitors the temperature of certain critical internal locations of the receiver (such as the surface of power transistors), the receiver case does not necessarily have to be "hot" before it kicks in. However, I do not think it is functioning properly if it shuts down when the case is only "a little warm."
At any rate, I believe that Onkyo has a legal obligation to repair/exchange a brand new unit that is not properly working, regardless of whatever BS they declare about "non-authorized" dealers. I would request a warranty repair.
companies are very strict on honoring the warrantry on products not purchased from an authorized dealer. some dont care, but some do you will have to check with onkyo. But if they do not honor non authorized products, dont hold your breath on the thought of sending it in for service under warranty.
I'd try getting Onkyo to fix it first, but if that fails, what is your budget for an amp/processor combo?
Marty,at first I was willing to consider that one of the speakers in one M80 was defective, but the fact that you tested them separately makes it extremely unlikely that both are defective. The 989 is a heavy-duty receiver which, operating properly, can handle the M80s despite the 6 ohm minimum fire safety precaution. Part of the requirements of the THX Ultra certification is the ability to drive a 3.6 ohm load. The 989 has no switch for lower than 8 ohms and needs none. Lesser receivers than the 989 have been reported as driving the M80s and other 4 ohm speakers successfully.
My conclusion from the fact that it takes a while to shut off is the same which sushi has suggested and you mentioned in your first post: the thermal protection circuitry on your 989 is set too low, despite what someone at Onkyo service might have told you about 4 ohms. If the fan didn't even go on there shouldn't have been a heat problem. It would have been interesting as an experiment to set the 989's sub crossover at 120hz rather than 80hz(assuming that you have the upgraded model), just to see if that would've reduced the load on the 989 enough.
So far as the "unauthorized dealer" goes, my understanding is that Onkyo isn't one of the more troublesome companies relating to honoring the written warranty. Also, in all states(and I believe all provinces)an unwritten implied warranty of fitness must be given effect under consumer law. In short, I think that your 989 is likely in need of service
Well I would like to add...
I have a Denon 1801 and HK 125. The HK is very sensitive to airflow and load. Very sensitive. Been to the shop 3 times (under warranty). The Denon runs the same setup with absolutely no problems. The specs from both are similar.
This was an eye-opener for me. I just assumed that if the speaker was within the ratings for the amp, everything was fine. Such is not the case. I know make sure I get a test first. I either can return the unit no questions, or take my speakers to the seller (and yes, I've hauled my M3ti's to several retailers - I can see the 80's being a bit more of a problem though).
whipdancer:
You should be fine with the Denon 1801 powering the M80s. Check out this post in which Ian describes the Axiom lab using the lesser Denon 1601 to drive the M80s:
http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=ST&Number=347&Search=true&Forum=All_Forums&Words=Ian&Match=Username&Searchpage=13&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=338 .