OK, it's late so I won't go into great detail, but I was able to finally play with the VP180 today. I figured I'd start a new thread to save others/newcomers having to read through the massive VP180 thread before getting to any reviews/feedback. I will start with my (unprofessional) impressions but any and all other owners are encouraged to add theirs as well.

Here is a picture of the VP180 standing on end beside an M80 for reference, sorry I don't know how to attach an image.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/51286284@N02/4716480288/sizes/l/

Yes, the VP180 is a beast and is every bit as big and heavy as the M80. The M80 only appears slightly taller because it has four rubber feet supporting it.

First part of listening was done with the VP180 oriented vertically (like in the picture) and compared to an M80. In a nutshell, the VP180 sounds incredible! It is literally as close as you will come to the sound of an M80 without actually getting an M80. First thing that stood out was the depth of sound. Did not sound hollow or tinny, it did sound full and rich and detailed. Bass was plentiful and provided lots of punch, just like the chest thumping effect I get from the M80's. I did all my testing without a sub and the VP180 didn't miss it that's for sure. The mids and vocals were clear and smooth, no evidence of any sibilance whatsoever, just like the M80's. The highs, again like the M80's, were detailed, crisp, and...well...sweet. By sweet I mean not overbearing or bright or fatiguing, at least it wasn't for the 3 hours I was listening.

So is it 100% identical to the M80? No, but I'd say 99%. It's hard to describe the difference. First off, even though the specs say sensitivity is the same as M80, I found that I had to increase the VP180 level by 2dB in order to acheive the same SPL as the M80. Even with that correction, though, I could still hear a very very slight difference. I will cautiously say that I found the M80 to be *slightly* more forward (prominent?), BUT the difference diminished as I lowered my ear level, so maybe it has to do with the driver alignment. Without direct comparison to the M80's I'd likely be more than happy with a pair of vertical VP180's as mains, but I can't really think of a situation where I'd ever recommend that setup over a pair of M80's. Horizontal placement is an entirely different matter. Here, there is no comparison at all, the VP180 wins hands down.

Geting too late and too tired now, sorry can't think of anything else to write. Will add more if I can remember. Feel free to ask questions and I'll do my best to answer, that may be the easiest way to get info out of me, LOL.

Thanks for the review!

Nice review HT, sounds like another winner from Axiom!

I am very impressed with mine as well .

Regardless of the similarities and driver configurations in center channel speakers compared to the mains, what you are describing in terms of what you are hearing is the inherent limitations of horizontal center channels. Adjusting your ear level is essentially the same as re-positioning the speaker and center channels have always been more sensitive to this issue.

Back some some time ago Alan Lofft wrote an interesting article about this when comparing the VP150 and 100 and how the sound changed just by a slight move in location.

It seems nothing will ever beat the original THX concept of identical speakers in the front three channels, however, when you have big "floor-standers" in your L/R configuration, for many it is not possible.

Actually, the VP180 was vertical when I noticed the effect of different ear levels. I found that when the VP180 was oriented horizontally, raising or lowering the ear level made little difference.

Well if that`s the case, then our friends at Axiom have unlocked the secret of how to build the "ultimate" horizontally oriented center channel.

Thanks for the review HT. It seems your initial impressions and mine were just about the same. I love the VP180, and cannot even think to put it in the same class as the VP150.

I did notice that moving my ears lower tended to make the sound more pronounced. What I did to fix the situation was angle the speaker more upward (I had the VP150 flat horizontal). Just propping it up about 15 degrees did the trick. With the adjustment, I have the VP150 about 2db less than the M80s (most likely because the M80s are about 2-3 feet farther away from my main listening position than the VP180).

Glad to see you're enjoying the speaker!

Casey, on the vertical dispersion point, that's actually about what would be expected from any horizontally configured speaker. The vertical speaker is designed for wide horizontal dispersion and narrower vertical dispersion. When on its side, the broad horizontal dispersion is obviously transformed to the vertical plane.

One interesting point for further comment would be a comparison of the horizontal VP180 with the vertical VP180 for center channel duties.

Now that would be interesting. I'd imagine it would be an even better / closer match than a VP180 with two M80's. It would basically come down to the sound of the M80's vs the sound of the (vertical) VP180's. If one feels that the difference is small enough, non existant, or in favour of the VP180's then they'd have themselves an ideal setup with three VP180's.

OK, so I finally came home and got to play for a couple of hours with my new toy and thought I would share my first impressions.

Please keep in mind that this is my opinion and I am by no mean an expert or audiophile so my terminology might be very simple. Also I haven't re-calibrated my system yet as my comparison was a direct comparison with the VP150.
First of all, when I got the VP150 about 1 1/2 month ago, I posted on another thread that I found it OK for movies but not too good for concerts. The voice of the singers were "thin" and seemed that they were singing from a further distance. Also the speaker didn't "spread" wide enough and the voices were localized just on the center of my TV. Also, the upper mid bass from a bass guitar was almost disappearing. For this reason, I used to watch concerts just with my mains.
Let me tell you, everything that disappointed me on the VP150 is long gone as the VP180 meets and exceeds my expectations. The sound is full, the voices spread wide and the bass guitar is finally back. What really impressed me was when I set the VP180 to full range. Maybe it's because I don't have a sub yet but WHAO!!!, what a difference even from the VP180 set to small. When at the main listening position, turning on and off the center sounds almost the same when it did not with the VP150. The only difference that I noticed was a difference in sound level, I found the M80s to play a bit louder, maybe being a little bit more "forward", but calibration will probably help at least for the volume level. The vocals spread wide and sound more natural, the singer are right in front of me, the sound stage is just more ..... complete.
For HT, I didn't find the difference so significant, maybe a bit better sound stage, specially when some lower frequencies are sent to the center, and the dialog seemed a bit more natural.

I have to play a bit more with it but these are my first impressions and hope it will help. For me, this speaker is definitely the one to have for people that have M80s, specially for music and is definitely worth the extra $$$. I can now return the VP150 with no doubt in my mind.

Now for the look. YESSSSSSSS !!!! It's big and bulky !!! But if you have the space and are able to convince the wife, go for it.
The magnetic grill is definitely a nice touch and gives the speaker a more modern. Even though I don't put it on, I love it (no holes on the speaker )
I was one of the first ones to say that I wasn't a fan of the new drivers. Well at first it looks odd cause I was used to the black and white, but after a couple of hours, I found that the all white looks OK, neither better or worst, just different and I would be fine with either. I think it would have looked better without dust caps all together. What is the main purpose of that anyways?
Now my only problem is that I am a grills off guy and of course, like many, would like my 3 fronts to match. So I am wondering if Axiom will help current customers in any way in this matter, maybe send replacement all-white drivers or if they would give me a good value for my 5 months old M80s, I would replace them once the M80s with all-white drivers and magnetic grills will come out.

Dust caps are for keeping (as the name implies) dust out of the "engine" of the speaker driver. The diagram below shows a cutaway view.



If enough dust or debris gets into the area between the voice coil and the pole piece, you'll have friction in a place you definitely don't want it. Dust cap-less speakers, like those found in many subwoofers, simply have the voice coil attached directly to the underside of a bowl-shaped driver.

Fixed.

OK WHERE ARE THE REVIEWS!!! I want to hear what everyone thinks that has one already. NEED more!!! I guess it doesn't matter since I have already ordered one, but want to hear anyway. I don't get to play with mine until next week. I especially would like to hear everyone's thoughts about how well it does on classical type music. I LOVE the battlestar galactica from syfy and wonder how much improvement they notice.

I just plugged mine in. Heading up to give it a listen now, although I'm not going to have time for any real A/B testing against the VP100 it's replacing tonight.

Here's what it looks like anyways. The stands are temporary. Yes all of the equipment is going to be moved to a rack over on the left. Yes I'm going to get off my butt and rewire with the nice green jacketed 12ga wire I bought two years ago. Yes I'm going to vacuum (the built-in vac doesn't have a jack upstairs for some bizarre reason).



EDIT - and yes I know the rug isn't straight

I just noticed that Amanda Tapping has a black handgun and the other guy has a stainless one. Just like the dustcaps. No that was not planned.

John, those are Axiom stands; no need for replacement.

Can I use v2 stands with v3 speakers ?

Actually I guess those are probably M2ti boxes.

Ok, its been at LEAST 15 min. I need an update.....

Uggh, I can't stand knowing mine is in a box at home just WAITING for me. I think this is the first time I have ever wanted to get back from a vacation.

I'd say I feel for you, but I don't have a VP180 waiting for me at home.

Hello Bridgman。　What color are your speakers? Are they light maple? I liked the color on the picture you took!

Man...the VP180 price still remained at the pre-order price in my cart.....the hand feels very itchy to click "Buy Now", but one of my deals goes bust and no extra income for me...ARRGGGGHH...

Yes, it's the "maple" selection out of the four standard colours. I really like it.

I have to say, in looking at John's photo, I didn't even notice that the dustcaps were different.

I might have been distracted by that damned crooked rug, though.

It really casts the room asunder.

Just to keep all the reviews (initial impressions) together, here is a link to my review on the other thread:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=305453#Post305453

I also like the 'dust capless' cones. If they can do it with the EP800 cones, they can do it with the midrange/bass cones as well. Makes for an over all cleaner look IMO.

I also like the look of the no-dust cap drivers, they just look koowell!

Well, I finally received the VP180. WOW, this thing is huge!!! I haven't had a chance to test it as I'm waiting on my Denon 4810 arriving on Tues, ahhh, the wait is not going to be easy!
A couple pics,

I *finally* received our VP180 today, it was supposed to arrive yesterday and whenever I inquired about the delay to the delivery driver today he told me the box was mistakenly put on the wrong local truck yesterday so I had to wait another day ... 's OK, I am a very patient man.

Anyhoo...

This center channel freakin' rocks! The guys and gals at Axiom hit nothing less than a game winning grand slam with this beauty. Whenever I connected it up for the first time my initial reaction was that it blended so smoothly and effortlessly with the M80s that it didn't sound like there was even a center present due to the seamless soundstage I was experiencing. It replaced our above and below VP100 and VP150 that I thought was doing an excellent job and to be quite honest I had doubts that a single center would create the expanded soundstage and planted dialog to the screen that the two centers did for so long with our system but was I ever so pleasantly surprised to find that this single surpasses the two centers by a longshot and I now have no need whatsoever to feel like a second center will ever be needed.

Firstly I plugged in 'Master and Commander' for a couple of the good scenes and was floored that not only is the dialog centered to the screen but it is centered to the entire front soundstage, so unbelievably seamless and blended with the other M80's that it's almost as if there's just one huge speaker that covers the front soundstage from sidewall to sidewall. Most of the afternoon I hit bits and parts of other movies along with music in different surround modes and this 180 tackles each task with ease ... I *really* like this speaker a lot, the silver dust domes are a nice touch and the magnetic grills are just bad ass to the bone!

Congrats Ian and thanks for developing this center channel, it's an absolute winner in every way ... you guys rock!

Cheers!

Thats a really nice setup. I see the tweets from the center line up with the mains. Cool!

You know, I think the drivers in the new center look really good with the v2 M80

::runs away quickly::

kmcalvano, what are you using to support your VP-180? can you post a link and maybe some close-ups?


thanks.

Sorry, no link, I actually made the cabinet myself;) Here are a few more pics.

Sorry, no link, I actually made the cabinet myself;) Here are a few more pics.

where did you get the spikes from? and how are they mounted to the center?

nice cabinetry work by the way! now you need to fill that one hole in the top center



:p

sunday cant come soon enough eh?

WOW GUYS! Those are really nice rooms. Rick that place is awesome and kmclavano that cabinet is wonderful. Rick, your review is gonna give me a speeding ticket on the way home from the beach. I am so excited to get back and play. I can't wait to play some movies and music when I get home.

I though exactly of the same thing. My wife noticed that too .... in her own way. She said:
"I don't know why you bought this one, it's so big and I can't even hear it, at least the other one (the VP150) I could"

Wides and Heights all ready to go! NICE!

Is that what the M22's are for? Wide channels? Do they make a reciever that plays BOTH wide and heigth channels at the same time?

Sweet room Rick, somehow I've never seen pictures of it before (is this the first time you've posted them?). Do you have bass traps along the rear corners as well? Or just the fronts?

Micah, Denon has several that can play both wide and heights at the same time. The 4810 can do it natively and the lower 33/4300 series can do it with external amps.

There are still no receivers/pre-pros which can have Surround-Rears, Wides, and Heights active at the same time though, right? Those Denons which can do Wides and Heights at the same time, do so at the sacrifice of the Surround-Backs?

The Denon 4810 can do 11.3 including surround backs with one outboard amp

That's really cool, thanks.

Finally got a SEC to play with the 180 and I emphasize just a sec. Got home from the beach at 8 hooked it up and watched the opening scence of toy story 2 then the boy had to go to bed, so can't wait till tomorrow. So far. I LIKIE!!!

I see you wasted no time upgrading your sig

Yeah, he could have had at least another sec listening to the 180.

Scott

I figured it was time to update the signature. I knew I wouldn't be sending this 180 back!

Have you listened to them any more?

Thanks Micah, no there aren't any bass traps in the rear of the room due to the layout of the back wall but I do like what they do along the front wall ... covering up my crooked ass drywall work!

While there are a few comments already about this I have a couple specific questions about the VP180. I’ve read the reviews so far and some of this has been covered a bit I’m just looking for more opinions if anyone would like to share.

1. How is the timbre match between the VP180 and the M80v2/ti. Specifically has anyone tested how voices, especially male ones, sound when panning from center to left or right or vise versa.

2. How is the off axis FR. Specifically is there a noticeable change as one moves from the center of the room to either side.

3. How does the discrete placement of instruments and vocalists sound using the VP180? Are they precise or a bit spread out?

Cheers,
Dean

1. I think it's as close of a match as you could hope for. No real noticeable difference.

2. Much wider than the VP150. Sitting to the side seat, I still hear the center channel (I did not with the VP150).

3. I have a much greater sense of placement with the VP180.

Thanks Steve that’s what I was hopping to hear.

I agree with all 3 Steve's comments.
If you recall, in a previous post, I mentioned that I had to turn the VP150 off for music as the experience was much more enjoyable only with the 2 fronts. Well, not anymore
When in the main listening position, it is very close. Of course, when you shift to the side, it is not the same but you still hear all the instruments (ie mid/upper bass that I couldn't hear before) and vocals.

Hello, My impressions are that vp 180 blows my m80's away.Could something be wrong with my m80's.I listen to some WHO songs and the center was so much better than the other speakers. Is this normal? .Any comments would be very helpful. thanks pat

I would hazard a guess that there's something wrong in your setup...

Since you are using the center speaker to listen to music, I am assuming you are listening utilizing a surround program(DPLII, Neo6 etc.). I guess the question is how do you have it set-up, vis a vis the relationship between the center and L/R speakers and their volume levels. No center speaker(in mono) should sound better than its equivalent L/R combo no matter how good it is.

Thanks Bruno, I also turned off my center VP150 for music always and movies if it was just me in the sweet spot until I got my M80 center.

When you sit off to the side do you notice any “beaming” effect like the sound from the VP180 is coming out of a tunnel? I know you sit close so this might not have even been an issue for you with the VP150.

Based on your comment’s it sounds like you would have to A/B compare the VP180 directly with the M80s playing the center to hear any difference (and then location and orientation could be the cause), would that be an accurate assessment?

Got some more time this weekend with the VP180 and the more I use it the more I love it. Music has never sounded better, and hearing it with the VP180 just makes me want to listen to more and more I ran it set to large without a sub this time and it was absolutely incredible. For anyone who's heard the M80's without a sub they will know what I mean. If it weren't for movies, I could easily live without a sub.

To keep this from turning into a love fest, I will comment on the horizontal off axis performance. Now, before I get lambasted, this is not a complaint, negative, con, or knock on the VP180. It is entirely possible that my following comments apply to any and all horizontally designed and oriented centre speakers, so take it FWIW.

There is a very slight dropoff in SPL and a very slight change in FR as you move left/right. The dropoff is more significant as you move towards the extreme left/right. You can still hear the VP180 loud and clear and detailed, just not as loud or prominent as in the sweetspot, which is direct centre.

I do understand that this is normal for horizontal centres, so there may be no way to actually change or improve it. I'm just wondering if having a tweeter above a mid driver (to mimic a vertical speaker) would improve the horizontal off axis performance. My frame of reference is the M80, which IMHO has outstanding horizontal off axis performance, so it may be asking too much.

OTOH, the vertical off axis performance of the VP180 is fantastic. I know this matters little to most people, but my VP180 sits close to the ground and needs to reach an elevated back row of seats. Whether I'm sitting on the ground or standing on the elevated platform, there is almost no difference in sound. Simply amazing.

I want to add that the horizontal dropoff is difficult to notice if/when the mains and/or surrounds are playing content at the same time (ie. under normal conditions). Isolating the centre by disabling all other speakers made the differences easier for me to hear. Also, you will only notice it if you keep sliding from one side to the other, which no one does when listening to music or movies, so practically speaking this shouldn't be an issue for most people.

I can just about guarantee that Axiom tried the tweeters in the middle before settling on their rather unorthodox approach. Ian mentioned that they were trying a ton of different configurations...

Then that's all I need to hear Like I said before, this is probably as close as you can come to an M80 using a horizontal design.

It may be just as well, as the twetter over mid driver design may lessen the vertical off axis performance, which I need. Thanks for letting me know that they tried it, now no more wondering.

Thanks for posting more impressions of your VP180.


On several occasions I’ve gone w/o a sub w/o realizing it for some time until I play something that I know well enough to realize some very low bass is missing. My M80s routinely shake my seats just playing music in 2/ch direct.



They do, as demonstated in an Audioholics test done awhile back:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/lou...evaluation.html

Where a $115 vertically arrayed bookshelf speaker bested all the horizontally arrayed center speakers when tested off axis. Only two centers, the $600 and $2,500 arrayed vertically bested the little $115 vertical bookshelf off axis.

Also note that a speakers location in the room can have a profound effect on how it sounds. Even with identical M80s across the front I can still detect slight time mismatches when certain sounds pan across the front even though the speakers are identical.

I’m just glad that Axiom is now making a center speaker that seems worthy of playing with the M80s for those who can’t fit an M80 center.

"Tweeters in the middle" isn't T/M.

That's very true, and the version that had the drivers "conventionally" oriented (tweeters vertically stacked in the middle) actually lost out early on during our development of the VP180. It may not be obvious to some, but there is a tonne of science, measurement, and listening that goes into determining driver positioning, even more so when it comes to a centre channel. I'm not sure how a tweeter above the mid orientation would be implemented with the M80 driver complement without the cabinet becoming as tall as an M22. Everyone can rest assured that the VP180 is THE best centre channel match to the M80 that we know how to build as of right now!

Andrew

I don't think I said tweeters in the middle, but if I did then I actually meant tweeter over mid driver.

For sure, using dual tweeters and dual mids in a tweeter over mid config would be too tall, but I was wondering about single tweeter over single mid. I know this wouldn't really be an M80 equivalent, just wondering if that layout provides better horizontal off axis performance. Thanks for the reassurance though, I'm loving my VP180

That would put the speaker at either 11.5" or 13.5" tall, using the specs of the M2 and M3 since it would be using one of those driver configurations. That is a tough sell for most people who don't have a projector since it seems very difficult to get a TV stand that would be able to house a 1 foot tall speaker that is probably quite wide as well. Right now with my VP150 is slightly blocking the bottom of my TV when I recline my chair. If I were to go to the VP180, I would be more than slightly and I am not going to do it right now. A 12" tall center speaker is out of the question for me right now. Again, once I go to a dedicated room with a projector, it is much easier to fit such a design.

Dean, rest assured that the VP180 sounds far from coming from a tunnel, the best way to put it is as Hnut said:

I completely agree with this statement also it seems to me from your previous posts that you are more picky or should I say expert in this type of things and you might hear things that most people won't.

You are right. The only comparison that I did was between the VP180 and the M80s with a phantom channel and as I said, the 2 sounded way more similar in terms of SPL, timbre and overall sound as the VP150 would ever dream of. As for comparison between a VP180 and a M80 as center, I would like to hear a review on that (maybe by you ) as I think they will be nearly identical at the sweet spot and will start differing when shifting left/right due to the horizontal design.

ALMOST yes but there is.

I really hope so but I can't comment since I don't have surrounds yet

Exactly! You can now add the VP180 to that category

Thanks for the read! Very enlightening, for me at least lol. My $0.02 regarding the article's concerns:

"The subtracting and adding of various frequencies at various angles can result in audible shifting in the speaker’s sound across the room."

I believe I am experiencing this with the VP180, but it is very slight and not likely to be noticable under normal listening conditions. Most of my friends only noticed it once I pointed it out to them and they started testing and listening for it, while two of them didn't notice it at all, even after I tried to explain it to them.

Personally, I found it more noticable with vocals (ie. singing) and less noticable with dialogue during movies. This may have more to do with the fact that movie dialgue bounces from actor to actor with sound and/or effects in the background, so it's masked somewhat.

It is more noticable when all other speakers are disabled and you start shifting from one side of the room to the other, but nobody (I hope) listens to music or watches movies like this. If I were to sit and stay in any (reasonable) listening position other than the sweetspot, I'd still be very happy with the sound coming out of the VP180.

"Off-axis, MTM speakers can often sound hollow..."

I can say that I've never found the VP180 to be even remotely hollow, regardless of where I am standing or sitting. I've even tried some pretty extreme spots, like almost 90 degrees off centre, and it still does not sound "hollow" in any way.

"...but the comb filtering, or lobing effect, can also shift the imaging away from the middle as a “phasy” sound."

I have no idea if this is going on, but if it is then I can't hear or notice it. I find that no matter where I am located in the room, the VP180 keeps the sound imaging centered to the screen. It's funny, because two of the VP180's strongest attributes are precisely this, the fact that it is always full and rich sounding and never hollow, and that it manages to keep the sound coming from it firmly anchored to the screen.

"...do your best to avoid or minimize wave interference across your room by being wary of horizontal redundancy."

This may be true, but whatever Axiom did to the VP180 sure seemed to work. I'm no speaker engineer so I don't know exactly how Axiom pulled it off, but my best guess is that the crossover points, the layout of the drivers, and the distances between the redundant drivers have all been carefully calculated and designed in order to minimize the shortcomings of an MTM design. Whatever the case, the VP180 provides great sound to every seat in my room, and amazing sound to one very lucky sweetspot

Agreed!

As happy as I am with the VP180, I would still like to try a WT/MW unit from Axiom one day. I don't actually expect it to be better than the VP180 in terms of sonically matching the M80, but it would be nice to see if the horizontal off axis performance is significantly better, and to see how much (if any) of the vertical off axis performance is affected by the vertical T/M alignment.

If a single small mid driver (required to keep cabinet size down) is a concern then perhaps they could try a WMT/MMW layout that uses a small mid driver under the tweeter, flanked by larger mid drivers and then woofers on the outside.

Thank Gawd (and Dean) and QFT.

I'm STUNNED that observations about speaker placement and room interactions have been virtually nonexistent in these discussions.

Even if you had IDENTICAL speakers that were oriented identically, wouldn't you expect them to sound slightly different if one was in the middle of the room and one was near(er) a wall?

It's supposed to be fun, remember?

That is very true, but that doesn't mean you can use just any speaker as long as it is in the "correct" location in a properly treated room. Some people are restricted to what they can do to their room and/or where they can place the speakers, so the next thing they have control over is the speaker itself.

Can one of you guys with both the VP150 and VP180 do a test for me please?

I do not want to give up my center arrangement of one under and one over my screen. I can't, no way in hell, hand a VP180.

I'm very curious to hear if the the two centers would play nice together. So if any of you guys who own both could give this arrangement a try (VP180 under and VP150 over the screen), and report back what your thoughts and impressions were, it would be appreciated.

That would be interesting, I think RickF would be able to do it somewhat easily, looking at his latest pics.

I am expecting the SPL to be different, but enough to make it distracting or would it blend?

Thanks for the follow up.



Yes I have unfortunately trained my ear to hear subtle difference in timbre I would never have noticed years ago. However, the “tunneling” or “beaming” effect I describe hearing with the VP150 in my present room is not subtle. It sounds like the speaker is at the back of a sewer tunnel when moving the left and right seats. Note that this particular effect has only happened in one out of three rooms I’ve tried it in.

I've not experienced any tunneling or beaming effect so far.

If it’s very slight then do yourself a favour and stop listening for it right now or you will end up quite insane like me.


I also notice it more with music. I agree with your reasoning and would add from what I’ve read that in many cased the sound engineer will mix some of the center channel into the mains to get a more seamless soundstage for movies especially with things moving and panning around the screen.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. If you were hearing the “hollowness” in my experience it’s never subtle so sounds like its not there.

+1 lol

I'll give it a try Michael and Jay, the only arrangement I will be able to try is the VP180 below and the VP150 above the screen. The only reason I have not tried this yet is the load the 6 ohm 150 and the 4 ohm 180 (3 ohms?) wired together will put on the AVR, but it's an H/K so if it works, OK and if not ... time to upgrade the AVR anyway.

Jeeesh, Rick. If you were a REAL friend you'd haul that VP180 up to the ceiling and do it right.

Tough crowd.

I thought you had that Sunfire Amp Rick? Not anymore?

I never had one Mike, if you remember JonInFl, he had a stack of Sunfire amps with a pair of M60s ... I've got the Rotel RB-1080. I'll get the VP150/180* combo together whenever I get some time this week.

*With the VP150 above the 180 unless a 'friend' wants to come over and haul the 180 to the ceiling for me.

Expect me around February.

The beer will be cold Fred.

I have been having a good time today. I'm by no means any kind of expert on speakers and sound, but I definitely like my upgrade. I guess the best way to describe what I have noticed would be "consistant" everything seems to be very smoothe and easy on the ears. I wish I knew how to describe it. Last night as I watched movies I noticed there didn't seem to be any dropouts or spikes in any low or high frequencies. I could be just giving placebo affects, but I did run a few frequency sweeps yesterday and it seemed the closest to flat I have ever had in my room. I guess the fact that this speaker is so closely related to my 60's makes everything blend so well. It really makes a difference the quality of the source being played. I have the AIX calibration disk that has some high resolution audio. When I played a few of them I really could not locate the 180 and it felt like I was sitting next to the stage. The soundstage opened up all around me. Itunes on the other hand sounds ok, but I can definitely localize it. I still haven't run across a pan from one speaker across to see the difference in voices across the fronts, but my room is small and I can notice a diffence between the mains when compared to one another. Both are the same distance from a wall, but one is 1ft from a door opening. Overall I have to say I really like what I hear so far.

HTN, the quote was from Ken, which you appeared to interpret to mean T/M had been tried.

Oh, you're right! I did misinterpret that. Hmmm...maybe a T/M is in the works...

Oh, my bad. That 1080 should drive the two without a whimper. No need to push it too far though. And putting the 150 above the screen would be perfect. Thank you for doing this. I owe you a beer, or two, or three.

Anyone with M22's upgrade to the VP180? Inquiring minds want to know.

Mike because of the PIA issue with hooking up the Rotel (cabinet space) I'll probably just connect it straight to the HK, which I believe will drive 'em both fine. I was going to connect the 150 and the 180 together but whenever I first listened to the 180 alone I was so impressed with vertical dispersion that right off the bat I knew the 180 wouldn't need any additional help. Seems like JC had written something in a post somewhere stating that a single 180 sounded better than even two 180s?

I'll get the 150 connected this weekend sometime and report back!

Yes, beers would be great.

+1

My VP180 is only 1ft. off the ground, and even without any tilt/incline I was very happy with the sound it projected to my elevated back row of seats. I may still play around with tilting it to see if I can improve it any.

Brought my dad over to check out the new speaker. I played some music and the beginning of Toy Story 2. His comment was, "This is amazing, it's loud, but doesn't hurt my ears. When I go to the theater I have to take ear plugs because the sound is piercing and hurts. These don't do that at all." The more I have had a chance to play around with the new 180 the more I like what I hear. I now feel like my Left, Right, and Center channel are just one speaker that goes across the front wall. They work together that well. I used to be able to tell the left, right, and center channel apart. Now it is just smooth across the board.

my vp180 and pair of m80 towers shipped today so i expect to have my review with pictures up by mid Wednesday next week because of the holidays here and canada. listening to all of you is positive reinforcement that i made the correct choice going with Axiom off of blind research of both pro and consumer/owner ratings and reviews as well as research into the company themselves. my boys will be powered with my XPA-5 and i can't wait to tell you all how it works out.

You will likey

You guys really make me want a VP180!

I guess that was the biggest change I noticed as well.

Then again the VP180 is wide enough that the left, center and right almost *are* one speaker

Sorry, it was not me I have not had the pleasure and honour of auditioning the VP180; I'm still waiting to get mine !

You work there an haven't even heard it yet? I'm going to have to have a talk with your boss!

Maybe I just dreamed that JC, seems like that happens a lot with my old mind nowadays.

And the VP180 ... I think you'll really like it!

Rick,

You are not alone, mine acts up quite often. In fact, more and more . . .

Yesterday I retired and the week leading up to that day was hectic to say the least. Well today I got to sit down finally and do critical listening. It also coincided with the arrival of Tom Petty's new Mojo BD. I ran a Calbration using AIX disc and set the x-overs all the same across the front with the ICBM.

I threw the Mojo in the Oppo SE ...WOW! I don't possess a lot of audiophile speak but will say this, the front-stage just sounds complete, full, dynamic. I can't believe how smooth the sound I am hearing is. It is all so even, buttery smooth but crystal clear at the same time if that make any sense.

I have been almost exclusively a 2 channel guy with my multichannel music, the VP150 I found was adequate for movies but somewhat not a match for the M80s so its been 2 channel. But not anymore! I am beyond myself to how good my setup sounds with the VP180. I am itching to try some of my CD's now with some Pro Logic 11x or Neo: 6.

The VP180 does play nice with the M80tis I have now, but I ordered the M80 V3s last night so I cant wait to incorporate those into my system. I am stoked for sure

By the way the new Tom Petty Mojo BD is great too!

You don't have to answer this if it's too personal, but can I ask how much they gave you for a trade-in on your Ti's?

Or did you even trade them in?

Micah,

1) Don't ever ask a woman her age
2) Don't ever ask a man's salary
3) Don't ever ask anyone their deal that was made... It's their deal, not yours.

PS - The VP180 is stunning. Buy it, trust me.

You guys are killing me I'm still waiting for the HG Rosewood I ordered in early May. Haven't even gotten "THE" e-mail yet!

They're still growing the tree.

I still have them and don't know exactly what I will do with them when the V3s get here. Thought of selling them but my son has been eyeballin them for a while so they may go that direction...for a small fee ;), bidness is bidness as they say!

Thanks Fred. I knew there would be a good reason somewhere.

High Gloss Rosewood.... Damn those are gorgeous. Do you listen to them or fondle them?

SRoode,

You forgot D. Never sneak up behind a horse and tickle it's ass.


J/k, you are correct of course, this is why I left the door open for him to tell me to piss off.

I wasn't trying to be intrusive so much as I was just being curious about the trade in value of speakers that old. Because here's my scenario, I've been reading the reviews of the VP180 from guys with M80 V2's and most say that while the combo is spectacular, they notice just a slight difference in sound quality between the two speakers.

Therefore if I were to upgrade to a VP180 I would also be curious to know how much it would be to trade in my 1 year old M80's on the V3's (or the kit to bring the V2's up to V3 specs). I'm not worried about it without a VP180 as I'm sure the differences between the V2's & V3's are so subtle I would never notice the difference once I got rid of the V2's & hooked the V3's up. However if the V3's match the VP180 perfectly, AND if the cost in upgrading my V2's was very minimal, then I might go for it.

If the cost to upgrade is not all that minimal, then I probably wouldn't sweat it much as I'm sure whatever differences there are between the M80 V2's and the VP180 are much harder to tell apart from the VP150 I currently have, and find no faults with.

In other words, most everything in my post is hypothetical.

Well, I would just call Axiom and ask them how much.

I listen to mine. I'll leave the fondling to others like Steve.

You uh..... you, you want to fondle Steve?

Micah, if memory serves me correctly I was offered $400 last year when I inquired about the V2's. Now my M80s were purchased in Sept 2004 so they were getting up in age although I think they have seasoned well.
I think I can sell them out right for more and my son is really interested now that he has heard I have new V3's on the way, soooo.

micah, they don't do trade in's anymore for any speaker... so i was told when i called about my M60's.... when i traded up from my VP-150 Ti to my vp-180 i got 208.50$ for the 150...... so about 1/2 or so of retail... this is just what the website was programed to give me, i didn't get a special deal or anything my ti's are around 5 yrs old......

Oh, I didn't realize they completely did away with the trade-up program, only that they weren't trading up the VP1150 to the VP180.

That kinda sucks, the trade-up program was a really good thing. However I must say I can understand not being able to take a bunch of VP150's off of people's hands if they aren't going to be able to do anything with them. Which makes me curious... I wonder how many new customers buy the VP150 since the 180's release? While I understand that the 180 is on a whole new level as compared to the 150 (or 100), it is also such a big center channel that I don't see quite as many customers being able to purchase it as those that had purchased the 150 when it was the top dog.

So I'm thinking it will still see it's share of sales. Not nearly what it used to see, but I don't think the 180 will completely eclipse it out of Axioms line up.

No one is fondling Steve... Except my wife once a month or so

Just got through with a block party here for the 4th. After the festivities, the whole gang came over to see our fireworks show and hang out for drinks. We all sort of came together in the theater after some time. I turned on the system and everyone was FLOORED! I don't think I've ever seen so many people (adults and kids) dancing around and having a great time! It was a great night!

Was that the "2 M80s, 1 VP180, 4QS8s, 2 EP800s" system or the "Pair of Algonquins" system ?

Just checkin'

Algonquins during the firework show, the rest afterwards!

Michael I got around to implementing the VP150 with the VP180 and the very second I heard the first note I knew the combination was a mismatch, it has to be due to the timbre and tonal balance not being the same because my initial thought was that the VP150 sounded like a small speaker playing on top of the TV, which in essence is exactly what it is ... three 80s with a VP150 peaking the triangular pattern.

As you can tell by the picture I didn't play with pointing the 150 with an aim straight for the seating because I felt it wouldn't make a difference but I did play a couple of scenes from movies along with some different types of music and I just am not impressed with this particular combination at all, although I always felt the VP100 and VP150 did an excellent job and sounded great with the 80s. I'm not so sure sure a pair of VP180s would sound any better than a well placed and well positioned single 180, but until somebody tries it we'll never know.

Oh and why the Vaseline jar on top of the sub you ask? I suppose because it's been forever since the grill has been off of the VP150 but I had a hell of a time trying to pry it off of the VP150 and even pulled one of the inserts out of the MDF so I'm going to do what I do on our boat, a thin coat of Vaseline on all snap fittings ... can we say magnetic grills!



I must say, the more I listen to the VP180 with our system the more I am impressed with it.

Well that's what I was expecting, but was hopeful they'd play nice together. Thanks for taking the time to give it a try. So when did you move the 600 from the side wall? I thought it sounded killer there. Good idea with the PJ. I have stuck grills on a couple different speakers that will remain on them as I don't want to screw up the speakers taking them off.

I just want it on the record that SOMEONE mentioned BigJohn to go along with the "Vaseline on the speaker" sitjeeashun.

When I spoke with Brent (who is running 2 vp150s, 1 above and 1 below his screen) back in May about whether I should try to combine the vp150 with the vp180, he stated, "No the 180 would just blow the 150 away."

He also suggested that the vp180 would most likely stand on its own and not require support from an additional center.

It sounds like your listening impressions are consistent with Brent's assessment, thanks for sharing.

After being able to listen to my 180 for a while and having the 150 hooked up in the other room it is easy to tell them apart. It is definitely a night and day difference. I finally found a disk in which voices go across the entire front and I was very happy to hear hardly any difference at all. As others have stated, the more I hear it, the more I like it. In my opinion if you have the room for this HUGE center it is well worth your money to upgrade to it. I am extremely happy with it.

I said it before, but it really was something to watch everyone's expressions during the 10 minute Avatar demo. You have to understand, it was very late (like 11pm) and there had to be 15 people in the room, with about 8 of them being kids sitting all around on the floor. Everyone, and I mean everyone was sitting there wide eyed, and nobody uttered a word. It's quite amazing to see a whole room of people that drawn into something (especially kids who about 10 minutes beforehand were dancing around the room like maniacs). I have to admit I spent all of my time watching their expressions rather than looking and listening. It was a really fun night.

Afterwards, several of the adults said they never experienced anything like that before. They used the words "perfectly tuned", "clear and precise", "balanced" and of course "room shaking".

im sure the twin EP-800's helped keep everyones attention a bit eh?

I'm REALLY thinking about another ep-600, have been for a while but need to wait for the rear projection DLP to decide to die, before i have the room....

Just received the new VP180....1 word Amazing.
Not to sound too hyperbolic, but it replaced a vp100 and I can't stop listenting to this beast.

Yes Steve as Dakkon points out... as brilliant as I'm sure your VP180 is and all, I'm thinkng those twin 800's (standing around hiding amongst your other speakers about as well as a couple of elephants tryng to hide themselves in a field of pink flamingo's) probably put their stamp of charisma on the room shaking part of the demo.

Had you been looking at my eyes that day I was over you would have seen that same look of amazement!!!

I read through the VP180 manual/brochure (very nice btw) and noticed a FR graph. Can anyone tell me if that is the graph for the VP180 or M80?

Hi htnut,

So far as I know, it's the graph for the VP180, measured in Axiom's own large anechoic chamber. The latter is a duplicate of the anechoic chamber at the acoustics division of the National Research Council, where Ian did much of the early R & D on Axiom's speakers back in the 1980s.

When I was over at the plant a while ago doing listening tests on the VP180 and other v3 models, there were tweaks made in the crossovers (based on the results of blind listening tests), then the speakers would be measured in the anechoic chamber, and another round of listening tests would be done. So there were lots of curves run by both Andrew, Ian and Debbie.

Regards,
Alan

Thanks Alan, it was so flat I thought it was the v3 M80, they really do look (and sound) very similar.

well, i just received my new front 3 soundstage of the VP180v3, and a pair of M80v3 towers. here is the first picture. i will post more as i unbox them and will give an initial review later on today at some point!

Awesome! Congrats!

Cool!

That's what I call one killer delivery ... congrats and enjoy SD!

got one of the M80v3's unboxed, isn't it beautiful? look at the drivers on that bit@h!



"just bought a cadillac, throw some D's on that bit@h!"

now to unbox the other M80v3 and then the VP180v3 which I will put a shot or two of the center. thus far I am sofa king happy!

It does look nice without the pin holes, I'm jealous!. Congrats!

Its like a shell game as to which box the VP-180 is in .

That's just what I was thinking when I saw the first picture. Congrats on the new speakers. They should sound even better than they look.

i think i lot of us were thinking the same thing.... i know i was...

I had money on the left one

actually they place small stickers next to the shipping labels that say exactly what speaker is inside the box. that's how you know before opening!

well, it's rare when things go as planned. i ordered the center VP180v3 with dual speaker binding post so that i could reuse my existing bi-wire cables without having to change it out; oh yes, your right, i got the center with a single pair of binding post! my existing front 3 are all bi-wired with Calabrine cables and i love them and I'm not going to change them out. say what you will about bi-wiring (like i don't know how some feel about it ;)) i like it and i don't plan on changing out my existing speaker cables.

I am a believer that I do not gauge a company by how it is when it's product is doing well. I guage them on how they deal with things when their product is not doing well. so, for axiom, they are doing Very Well! I called up Noreen, told her what was going on and she apologized on the compaines behalf and told me that tomorrow a new center with dual speaker binding post will be shipped to me. she offered to send me an email of our conversation and what they will do for me as well.

she is also going to send me a pre-paid shipping label to get the other center back to them. I'll wait until i get tracking info and set up for pick-up of the existing center on the same day that the new/proper center arrives.

so, i feel better about the level of service and support that i will be and am getting from Axiom and this speaks volumes to them in my book. with the exception of the mix-up in what was shipped to me (which probably means someone is opening up their center going, wow, i didn't know they had 2 pair of speaker terminals!) i am happy with the choice i made in going with Axiom.

I will resist the temptation of connecting up my M80v3 towers until i get the center; it won't be easy either, but, i'll fight it. How about this, i'll leave it to the group, do you think i should wait for the replacement center to arrive before connecting up the new
L & R fronts or go ahead and connect up the L & R using my existing center to hear how they sound without waiting?

Men, just connect the whole damn system ! And of course, give us your impressions

Connect it!

Are you kidding? Hook'em up!

Ditto

If you can wait, you're a better man than I.

Do you not have any cables at all that you could use to hook up to the 180 just for a little test listen?

ok, based on what folks at 3 forums (including this one) had to say, i have installed and connected up the front L & R speaker. i did run some audio for a quickie (nothing like one huh!) here is what i used:

John Mayer: Heavier Things - tracks one & two

Tom Petty: Mojo - tracks one & two

i want to quote 2 great minds, "meatloaf" & "tony the tiger"

"two outta three ain't bad - they're Great!"

with just two of the three new speakers installed i'll tell you this the second i turned on John Mayer's first track, "Clarity" i knew, without any doubt that I had something fresh and new and that I had made the right choice in speakers!

i decided right off the bat to go full band on the speakers (stereo mode, no sub) to see what they had. anybody who has listened to Johy Mayer's album referenced above with the first track knows it's a speaker LF ball buster. with the speakers set to full band, with the volume set at what i listen to tv (the news) on it began to play and brothers and sisters i had change jingling in my pocket! it untied my shoes and i was wearing loafers, are you with me!

i cranked it up from 45 to 50 and the bass was so thunderous, i had to turn it down! not undistorted either, clear but just the two speakers were rattling my nick-nacks (both type too :o) I've never felt that before without a sub on, it was furious and unrelenting. chess caving in type beats Al Capone with that bat in the Untouchables beating!

i set the crossover to what i had my RTi10's set to (50hz) still thunderous, well overpowered the Polks (this is not a Polk bashing, it's just what i heard from the Axioms) i left my fronts crossed over at 60hz. I am afraid of how much of a f'n monster my front soundstage will be when i get that VP180v3 next week to have that much power blasting that sound away with such clarity is something so new to me. i'm so happy that i listened to you all and hooked them in. i know the term night and day get thrown around a lot but for me, with these speakers, it's no joke, night and day people. i expect i will just sh!t myself when i get that center and play something in 5.1

i haven't played too much in 5.1 because the front L & R are currently drowning out the center; mind you i haven't re-done the calibration either so it's at whatever it was set at for the RTi10 L & R. after I get the center next week, i will probably run it then and then SPL that with my iPhone.

ok, picture time. i included this shot to show the M80v3 tower next to the Polk RTi10 tower. the Axiom is a little smaller than the polk but it's much bigger in power and sound!



i connected the Calabrine Bi-Wire cables to those bad boys then i let them fly!


here is a full frontal shot of the new front L & R in their final resting places; they are at the toppless speaker bar so they are letting those drivers breath!


looking at them imagine, the next week, the center of the same size will be in the space below between and i will cry like a little girl with tears of joy when i watch movies and listen to music. i will hold out on some movies until i get that center and wire it and slide it into place.

i am already so happy that i'm thinking about buying a pair of M3v3 speakers to replace my TSi200's so that my 5 channel system is completely matched. http://www.axiomaudio.com/m3.html i will leave my TSi100's in place for my surround back two channels as they don't get that much work so they will be fine, but the surrounds are kinda important these days so don't be surprised if within the next two weeks, i buy them. the TSi200's would go in the basement office secondary HT as fronts and i'll move the exting fronts down there (TSi100's) to the sunroom for stereo and maybe get a cheap sub for it too. sounds like a plan to me. those TSi200's will really do a great job in the secondary HT area.

i now open the floor for your comments!

i packed it right back up and i don't intend to unpack it, damn things heavy as phuck all! I should have the proper replacement next week by Tuesday. i hooked up the other two so that will hold me over.

Get the QS8's for surrounds. You won't be sorry.

thanks for your suggestion but i really like direct speakers for surrounds. i have heard di & bi poles before and they sound great too. i just have a thing for direct. mind you, those are very nice speakers those QS8's. i will keep your suggestion in mind. perhaps going this route won't be a terribly bad thing. of course you have gathered that i'm partial to direct speakers, but thanks just the same.

Play any louder and you'll knock all that stuff of the shelves

this is the first time i have ever driven 4 ohm speaker loads with the XPA-5 amp and it took them and rolled with them! this is also the first time i have ever given the XPA-5 amp such a workout! it was warm to the touch after about 1 hour and with my other 8 ohm towers it would have taken at least 2 - 3 hours to get warm.

mind you the amp is not getting hot or anywhere near it. i'm just saying i can tell that the M80v3 are pulling, no, demanding some serious power for the great quality sound they are producing! i also think the amp is happier because it's being asked to do what it was designed and built to do, produce power for speakers!...and plenty of it!

I'd probably use M22s for surrounds if you've simply got to have monopoles--they're more closely matched to the M80s than the M3s.

After trying Axiom QS series I could never imagine going back to monopole speakers as surrounds. They are that good.

Keep in mind the QS8s ARE direct....none of the drivers are out of phase....

Exactly Mark, direct radiating speakers can't provide the same experience as the orginal movie engineers intended. The Q's were designed to simulate multiple direct radiating speakers that are lined along the walls of cinema's, all in one speaker. Once a person gives them a test, they will realize how superior they perform to bookshelfs.

they are taller than the TSi200's i have already and i can't move the brackets that the current speakers are own so they won't fit because of the ceiling. in the space that i'm using them i suspect that the M3's will do a great job as i think that while they are smaller than the TSi200 speaker, the M3 outclasses the older TSi200 with refined design and technology and i'm liking that it too has the upgraded V3 package so it will match and i'll still get plenty of surround sound out of it. if i could have made it fit, i would have used the M22 but i suspect that in the size room i'm in the M3 will be perfect and give more clarity in sound content than the current TSi200 can in a smaller package. but thank you just the same for your recommendation and believe me, i did look at that first because it so reminded me of the TSi200 but for me that smaller M3 will outpace the TSi200 speaker.

Okay, but just to note that you can use the bi-wire cables on the present VP180 simply by using just one wire of each(black and red)pair.

Another suggestion would be to order both the M3s and QS8s and give them both a try and just return the QS8s if you still prefer the M3s. I doubt the shipping would be that expensive and might be worth it to you to compare both. Just an idea...

you are correct but, i don't have the space to set this monster on the floor and the place where it will go is under my tv and i have to install a steel bar accross the underside of it then slide it over it and that is what the speaker will rest on with large brackets on the back of the stand to hold the back. the steel bar will go across the entire length of the speaker like a hang glider bar. this thing is heavy and i wasn't about to go through all of that just to listen to it. and don't think i didn't think about doing it but i did and i decided i didn't want to do it more than once! remember, this thing is close to 60lbs and it has to be lifted up and slid in low. i can wait until next week.

you know, i never gave that any thought, good idea. you have given me a fresh perspective, thank you. i'll keep it in mind.

I'll put money on the outcome being that the M3's will be sent back (althought I'm sure I'll have a hard time finding anyone to bet on the M3's). Although yet another outcome could be that you'll like the Q's better than the M3's for your surrounds, but still like the M3's enough to keep them and put them in your bedroom, utility room, etc...

Someone else on here suggested if I wanted to try the M3's to get the outdoor version. That way if I didn't want it for the kids room, I could at least put them outside and enjoy music while grilling and what not. I thought that was an excellent idea. You might try the same thing. It's the same speaker, just weather proof!

my replacement VP180v3 shipped today. they are sending me the correct (and this time checked and verified)speaker with dual binding speaker post. they are also sending me return shipping label to cover the cost of shipping the single pair of post center back. i should have it on monday or tuesday the latest then i'll have my completed v3 front 3 soundstage. those M80v3 towers are getting lonely!

I've listened to many of you hear and other friends over at two other forums too and I think i am going to go with the group on this about the QS8 for my side surrounds. i've done a bunch of reading on them, read customers personal reviews, read the pro mag reviews and the more i read and research, the more i like what i see. i think i'll be looking to buy a pair soon. i have to look a few things over but, this month might be do-able!

thanks to everyone for pointing me towards what appears to be a incredible purchase.

It was our pleasure.