My wife's biggest complaint with our home theater has always been center speaker audibility. I've made things better with little tweaks here and there, changing placement above to below the screen, etc.

So then the monster VP180 comes out.

How would a single VP180 compare to say two VP150s with one above and one below a front projector screen? Previous discussions were about how a center above and below helped to get center channel audio to seem more like it is smack dab in the middle of the large screen.

I know that the driver configuration is different, but is the sound field large enough on the VP180 to do something similar and to nail the center channel audio to the center of the screen?

With me still trying to sell our house, I am not going to go out and buy something until we get moved in, but when I look at houses to buy, and I visualize what V4.0 of my home theater is going to be, I just wonder if I need to make sure that there is height for 2 center channels or not.

Obviously cost is a factor as well. I can keep my VP150 and just add another of even a VP100 for less than trading up to a VP180. Thoughts? Experiences from those who went to the VP180?

Thanks!

I think RickF did this experiment already, and greatly preferred a single VP180.

Yes, he used to have VP150 + VP100 and from his comments the VP180 alone is far superior.
http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=310902&page=3

Well, it's bigger than two VP150s



I replaced a VP100 with the VP180. If you accept that you can visualize a sound bubble from a speaker the bubble from the VP100 was maybe 4' wide and 18" high, while the corresponding bubble from VP180 was maybe 6' wide and 3' high. I felt that dialog was now very closely anchored to heads on the screen, maybe 6" below rather than 12-18" below before. Rather than going for a second center channel to make it perfect, I'm going to raise the M60s a couple of feet off the ground. Informal testing with chairs suggests that will be enough to make the voices and the heads line up perfectly.

Dang it! That isn't what I wanted to hear...

I don't have any experience with two centre speakers, but the VP180 does a great job IMHO. I've never felt like the the audio was misplaced in any way.

Sell the VP150 and get a VP180. That's probably cheaper than buying "another" speaker and you don't have to allow for mounting two center channels. It's a win.

Nick I went from a 100 above/150 below our screen (73") to a single 180 below and in my estimation there's just no comparison. John has a very good analogy with the bubble description and the only thing that I might add is that in addition to the sound bubble, you are also going to an exacting tonal and timbre match with the 180 ... it really does make a difference.

Crap crap crap!!!! Guys!!!! You aren't helping!!!! I should have never asked... Now I will always have sub-par center channel sound until I get a VP180!!! (or at least I will always think that I am missing out)

Crappity crap crap crap!!!


(maybe I should sell all of my Axioms with my house and just buy M80 fronts, a VP180 center, and 4 QS8s for the new place. that will work, until the M100 comes out, and the QS12's... Aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh.....)

yeah thanks Rick.

Just to be clear, I was very happy with my M60/VP100 system (I had friends literally in awe after listening to scenes like the Matrix helicopter crash, which is mostly center channel), and if someone walked off with my VP180 I could go back to being happy with the VP100 again.

I'm just even *more* happy with the VP180... nyahh hah !!

Question-is there a point at which a center channel can become too large? I mean, with the left/right speakers supposed to be around 10-12 feet apart, or the same distance apart as the listening position is from the center channel (my understanding anyway), would it not cause a seamless sound across the front because there is less space between the front speakers? If so, is this a good thing, or should there be a more noticeable separation between the three front speakers, which would happen with a smaller center channel.

Maybe I'm way off in left field, but that popped into my head this afternoon.

Thanks,
Cam

That's been a question of mine for many years now.

I believe the mixing of the media and/or surround processing will still give you the separation no matter the distance between the speakers, listen to a good concert DVD and you can pretty much tell what part of the stage most of the musicians are playing on without even watching the video source.

I had a similar question earlier regarding the VP150 because my room is not very wide. Nobody said I had to worry, and nobody seemed to take issue with it... so I assumed it was ok.

Here is the thread in question, though it likely won't help:
http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthre...2556#Post312556

Thanks
snazzed

Hi,

You should not be concerned with the distance between the center speaker and the main left and right ones. With the available adjustment on your avr; you should be able to bend it quite well. The mistake which I often see, mostly at audio show, is a too large distance between the main speakers that can be awfull especially in stereo.

Cam in my experience testing two M22 speakers laying horizontally above my screen in my apartment (mains only about 6 feet apart) I found that for multi-channel sources the center of the soundstage was way to wide for most music. For studio recordings it made the vocalist, drummer and/or any other instruments coming mostly from the center channel sound blurred across the front like the vocalists mouths were 5 feet across. No amount of tweaking any settings could “tighten up” the center channel image since the drivers were physically spread out 4-5 feet. Note this was also sitting 6-8 feet away from the screen and the further back you get the more the line array of a horizontal center starts to sound more like a point source since it’s angular width decreases relative to distance.

OTOH I did find that for movies and most concert SACD/DVDs the “wall-of-sound” effect created by an array of horizontal drivers seemed more like a movie theater of concert. Also, at first I thought the large horizontal array sounded great for everything but once I started listening critically I didn’t like the smearing effect it had on multi-channel or PLIIx music. I imagine that for most people this will not be an issue since the “wall-of-sound” does seem quite impressive.

That’s the reason I’ve been musing the idea of getting a VP180 and mounting it on a stand so it can be rotated 90 degrees between the horizontal and vertical so I can have the best of both worlds. (yes I’m eccentric)

Cheers,
Dean

This place wouldn't be nearly as fun without everyone's eccentricities.

Thanks Grunt, interesting findings. I had thought that it might create a movie theater like experience.

Nick – So far, no one has actually compared two VP150’s to one VP180. I’m not convinced that one VP180 will be any better than two VP150’s. I’d hold off and let the dust settle from the “gotta get one” crowd for a spell before jumping on the band wagon yourself. I know that Ian is currently running two VP150’s and has mentioned that he will swap them out for VP180’s. I hope to speak to him about this to get his thoughts on the differing combinations.

That would be an interesting comparison. Your mains aren't very far apart but my guess is that you would still get better results with a horizontal VP180 as opposed to two horizontal M22's. The number (2) and layout (centred) of the mid drivers and tweeters on the VP180 should help "separate" them from your mains somewhat. I'm not sure why you'd want to rotate the VP180 into a vertical position though since I thought you already had a vertical M80 for a centre.

My mains are about 10-11 feet apart the closer distance mentioned above was in my apartment. Also the issue wasn’t just separation from the mains but width of the center channel image. I agree that the VP180 driver layout should tighten up that image as compared to dual horizontal M22s.

The reason for considering a rotating VP180 would be to have it vertical for most music giving IMO a more precise soundstage for music, and horizontal for most movies giving more of a “wall-of-sound-effect. Another possibility I’ve considered would be to try a vertical M80 below the screen like I have now with a horizontal VP180 above with the option of turning the VP180 off for most music listening. Though this arrangement would create the hassle of also needing to change the center channel volume for level matching when switching between one and two centers. Though it would give the advantage during movies of better centering the center channel image vertically on the screen.

Not a high priority for me just something I’m considering if the VP180 gets good reviews that don’t indicate any horizontal dispersion issues which I often found with the VP150.

One of the things I really like about the VP180 is the speaker arrangement. Having the mids in the center flanked by the tweeters means that for all practical purposes it's still a fairly small speaker -- it just happens to have a couple of woofers hanging out at the ends to make it full range and able to play scary loud without breaking up.