Hey folks. After some research, I've decided on going with the Epic Grand Master 500 speaker system for my home theater project. I will construct a dedicated room in the basement for this. My delima now is finding a quality AVR (since separates are out of price range at the moment) to drive the speakers. Ones I've been looking at: Arcam AVR500, Rotel RSX-1550 and Denon AVR-4310CI. I'm looking for clean power and Dolby TrueHD capable. My budget is $3k. Thanks for looking and any advise you may give.

If I were to get a receiver I'd get the Integra DTR-80.1. Plenty of bells and whistles and plenty of power!

Listed for $2800


http://integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?m=DTR-80.1&class=Receiver&p=s

With a $3K budget, I'd probably get a midrange receiver (say, $1000) + a real nice amp.

I cannot fathom spending $3K on a receiver. It just doesn't compute.

Agreed.

I'm kind of with Ken here. I don't think you need to spend that kind of money to get excellent results.

I know you'll be very happy with the Epic Grand Master 500 system. Are you getting a stock finish or a custom finish? If you are getting a stock finish and have the room, for your budget I'd spend more on the speakers (i.e. get Epic 60 or Epic 80) and less on the receiver.

That being said, nobody has ever been disappointed with a Denon and I'm sure any of the models you mention would be quite lovely. Perhaps budget for a good universal remote control.

+1

Same here.

I would agree, buy a 2310 or something like that and see if that works for you. A seperate amp with the 22's is a waste of time. I have basically the Epic Grand Master 500 system with a different SVS sub, and my 2310 drives it without issues at all. I agree 100% about putting that money into a floorstanding system if your theatre room is more than about 2500 cubic feet. If not, put it against the mortgage or buy a really fancy beer fridge

Interesting. I'm glad I asked the question. I guess I always thought going with separates would be much more in price. Maybe I need to look at that again ....

Oh, and i'll be going with stock finish as the spekaers will be hidden in floor-to-ceiling columns.

lex, Axiom offers "in cabinet" versions of several speakers - you might want to look into those. Just putting a traditional speaker enclosure inside another enclosure (the columns) could seriously compromise the sound.

Compromising sound I definitely do not want to do. My thought was to 'hide' the speakers behind something made of sound-friendly cloth. The columns wouldn't be made of solid materials. Since I haven't started construction of the room yet, it's just an idea I'm floating around.

for another 600$ you can get the epic 60 500. that will give you larger left and right speakers, as well as a larger center channel. I would recommend taking the cash out of your electronics budget to fund the increase in the speaker cost. I completely agree with getting a good midrange receiver, and investing in an outboard amp, i would use the receiver to power your surrounds, and then get a nice 3 channel amp for the L/R/C. Then if you want to go to a full pre-pro system, you just need a processor, and a small 2 channel amp for the surrounds.

What is the volume of the room? that plays a big part in what speakers would be correct for your space.

Ah - I misunderstood. Sorry.

Still, if "hiding" the speakers is something that is important to you, perhaps check out the in-wall and in-cabinet versions on the product page.

That might be a better and more elegant solution than a column made of grill-cloth.

after checking out the in-cabinet 60's, i'm really starting to think those will be the way to go. and yes, i agree that solution would be much more elegant than the column idea.

the room hasn't been built yet, but i'll make some rough measuring tonight.

Lex, one more thing. You really don't have to pay list price for Denon receivers (same goes for Marantz). I'm sure other AVRs are similar, but don't have personal experience. You can get them from authorized online retailers for much less.

The Epic 60 500 and EGM 500 both come with the VP150.

oops, sorry i looked at the epic 50, not the grand master package.... i don't know why i looked at the wrong thing...... your right.

dakkon, so it would be worth it to get a cheaper AVR and use the pre-outs to a 3-ch amp than to use the amplifier in the receiver to drive L/C/R?

"worth it" is in the ear of the beholder. You're going to get a variety of opinions as well as some scientific assertions.

Depends to some extent how big the room is and how loud you want to listen.

I think it would be the best choice for you.

my reason for saying this is because you said you wanted to go the pre-pro route, but you don't have the budget for what you wanted right now. You could decide on an amp brand that you like and start with a 3 channel.

if you wanted to get a receiver and stick with it, my recommendation would be different.

i am a pre-pro person, and personally i think this is the way to go. with the pre pro, the power supply for the amp, is only providing power to the amp boards, in a receiver there is 1 power supply, that is for the amp boards, and ALL the other circuitry in the box. I am of the opinion that the power supplies in the receivers do are not comparable the power supplies of a good amp.

when i got my axioms, i got a mid level receiver, and a 5 channel amp, i really liked this set up. Depending how how much volume your room is, and the sound level you like to have your music/movies will kind of depend on how much power you will need.

I when i moved into my current house, while watching movies, the 5 channel amp would have a few channels go into clip protection from time to time, so i changed to a 3 channel and 2 channel set up for more power.


with all that being said, the "sound quality" will be the same between a receiver amp, and an outboard amp. Both are solid state amps, and will have no appreciable sound difference, the only real difference is the amount of power that they can supply to your speakers.

I would recommend trying to go the balanced interconnect route however this will increase the cost for both components, to get a receiver with XLR outs will be the high end, but you can get an amp with both RCA and XLR and when you get you processor, you can get a processor with XLR outputs. I have tried both RCA and XLR connectors, and there is a difference between the 2 and XLR is definitely better.


i hope this helps explain my reasoning. and also maybe helps you make a decision.

Lex, welcome. Yes, you should get a less expensive(than $3000)receiver; no, you shouldn't get "a cheaper AVR and use the pre-outs". A less expensive receiver, such as the Denon 4310 or Onkyo 3007, may very well fully satisfy your needs. Separate components continue to have a certain mystique about them, despite a lack of factual support. There's no magic that results from putting things in two or three boxes instead of one. The power needed depends on listening distance(more significant than simply room size)and sound level. Receivers such as those mentioned can drive Axioms to beyond safe listening levels in most home situations. In the unlikely event that more is actually needed, adding a separate amplifier can be considered at a later date.

The 4310 is available for around $1000 in factory refurbished form(eCost)and the 3007 for about the same(Accessories4less). These are likely to be at least as reliable as brand new units. Deals on new units are available(sometimes by calling)for maybe $200-$300 more from sources such as 6thAve, J&R, Onecall and Vanns.

i don't understand this statement john, sound is measured as a pressure, and the energy required to pressurize a volume is directly related to the volume. the orientation in a volume has nothing to do with the pressure seen in that volume, the pressure is equal though out a given volume, so orientation inside that volume should be insignificant?

Dak, pressurizing a volume isn't the object; instead it's sound level at a listener's ears at a certain point within that volume. Tests(Toole, Sound Reproduction, pp.59-60, etc.)demonstrate that in home audio rooms this sound level drops off at about 3dB per doubling of listener distance, which takes into account both direct sound and room reflections.

i guess i don't really understand, Boyle's law states that the pressure in a volume is the same though out the volume. so the sound level should be the same in a room?

maybe i'll get my spl meter out tomorrow and try it out.. Just doesn't really make since to me.

if the only variable was distance, then volume shouldn't matter at all?

Volume is relevant with respect to room reflections, but not the direct sound.

Dakkon, thank you for your time explaining a bit more on the pre-pro solution. My room will be about 3000 cubic ft - and I like to watch my movies more on the louder side with plenty of low-end to boot. I did some checking online and found a few 2-ch amps with plenty of power (Carver A753x - 250w X 2) to drive the M60's and maybe a mono amp to drive the Vp150 if I can't find a 3-ch. But I will keep searching. Thanks again for the input.

John, thanks for the input on the 2 receivers you mentioned. I will look into both of them. I am a fan of both manufacturers - but am slightly biased towards Denon.

my amps are 250W at 8ohms, at 250w per channel that will give you a bunch of extra power. the amp i sent into clipping was 135W per channel. I also have the M60'S as well.

With the room being about 3000 cubic feet (20' x 16' x 9), I'm looking at the EP600 vice the EP500. Has anyone heard the difference between the 2? I can read specs all day, but never equates to hearing it in person. On that matter, are there any other suggestions to subs? I'm all ears! Thanks.

Hi lex,

Your room can easily accommodate an EP600; it could host multiple EP600. There is a big difference between the EP500 and the EP600; far greater than the price difference might suggest.

Before I had my dedicated home theatre, one day I was listening to a short organ recording sent to me by an Axiom customer who was saying experimenting loud and bad distortion on his small EP125 subwoofer. I played it on both my EP500 and then on the EP600. On the EP500 you could ear something was not right very deep sound but not menacing. I repeated the same passage on the EP600 it sent my mother-in-law in panic mode; the dishes started shifting upstairs in the kitchen.

When I first audition the EP600; my initial comment to Ian was that it sounded like two EP500.

What is the title of the recording you are referring to Jc?

Unfortunately, I don't have the details of the recording. The customer had sent me only a passage of the recording which exhibited this anomaly. I'll will look to see if I kept it somewhere.

Thanks for the comparison Jc on the subs.

Lex, keep in mind that all designs are a compromise. The EP600 and EP800 are very large box subwoofers tuned to hit very, very low notes found in HT soundtracks. Musical passages rarely get much lower than 20 hz though, which the EP500 will reproduce just fine. IMO subs tuned to hit those really low bass notes guve up a bit of the upper portion of the bass range, say around 60 - 80 hz... which is the range that you feel in your chest. Those notes below 20 hz are the notes that shake things like furniture, dishes, windows, etc... but you don't feel those notes pounding through your chest so much.

So it becomes a question of what you're looking to use it for. Do you listen to a lot classical music, and watch a lot of movies that you really want to squeeze the maximum amount of low end notes out of? Or do you like to listen to bass heavy music that pulsates throughout your body? The EP600/800 would do great for the former, while the EP500 might do better for the latter. Keep in mind this is only an opinion of mine since I've never heard the 500. But I do know the EP800 very well, and I would have to say that I feel it gives up some intensity of those upper bass notes to bring me the full compliment of lower bass notes.

And Dakkon, I know what you're talking about when it comes to sound pressure. However I must say, if I'm listening to my music here in my seat 16 feet away from my M80's and I get up and walk over to 1 foot from them, they will sound louder. It's not 10 times louder, but louder just the same.

I can remember the very first concert I ever attended.... Motley Crue's 'Girls, Girls, Girls' tour, at Market Square Arena in Indianapolis. Me and my buddies were sitting in the very top row of the stadium to the right of the stage. The music was incredibly loud up there (they got fined for exeeding safe concert audible levels on that tour). So this tells me that sound pressure does have something to do with it. But I'm also sure if I was one of those people sitting in the front row right next to those speakers, it would have been even louder!

Micah,
It is most likely a perception. You can experience similar perceptions and prove their existence with double-blind listening tests. Identical speakers, except for a very, very slight insignificant difference in the upper treble (indiscernible for some panel memebers), will receive comments about differences in their bass even if they have identical bass response and output. Panelists who have not perceived the treble difference will judge them identical speakers (no comments on the bass). The opposite is also true (differences in bass will affect treble perception).